Author Topic: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself  (Read 25304 times)

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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #261 on: April 10, 2013, 05:16:31 AM »
I don't really understand the  premise of an earthly existence in the context of the above.

Ok so earth many be the quality control testing ground in gods angel production but why does he doubt his own work if he is all powerful/knowing etc?

If god wants to get people to heaven quicker why not cut out the middle man and create a new class of angel so we're already in heaven?

Am I getting the wrong end of the stick here?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #262 on: April 10, 2013, 06:08:57 AM »
If god wants to get people to heaven quicker why not cut out the middle man and create a new class of angel so we're already in heaven?

There is a particular state of being that one must be in, in order to enter heaven (apparently).  Earthly life, as you say, is apparently the way that this state is attained.

However, it would be entirely possible for an omnipotent god to create life, in that particular state of being.  It could create them standing at the gates of heaven, and with whatever memories or experiences they needed to have.  They could further be created with "free will", and with no conception that any of their memories were not really obtained.

An omnipotent god could do all that - to say it could not do so is to suggest there are things god is unable to do.

There is further the argument that a loving god could do nothing other than that.  If a god could make it so that EVERY being it creates got immediately into heaven, it would have to be a particularly callous or indifferent god to instead choose a method of creation that would ensure billions would NOT enter its heaven.

A loving god would create us all in a fit state for heaven - the fact that this does not happen means god is NOT all loving.

The existence of an earthly realm means god is either not loving, or not omnipotent - or perhaps both.  Or, alternatively, that there IS no god.  Either way, there seems little reason to worship such a being.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #263 on: April 10, 2013, 06:19:26 AM »
The existence of an earthly realm means god is either not loving, or not omnipotent - or perhaps both.  Or, alternatively, that there IS no god.  Either way, there seems little reason to worship such a being.

Couldn't an omnipotent God also create mankind for reasons that fall outside your consideration of the possibilities?
Go on up you baldhead.

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #264 on: April 10, 2013, 06:22:14 AM »
He covered that one, magicmiles.  It falls under the "not loving" category he mentioned.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #265 on: April 10, 2013, 06:32:00 AM »
No, he hasn't. It's easy to tell he hasn't, because it was one of his possibilities.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #266 on: April 10, 2013, 06:39:59 AM »
Anfauglir, cheers for your reply. It makes sense to me.

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #267 on: April 10, 2013, 06:42:40 AM »
No, he hasn't. It's easy to tell he hasn't, because it was one of his possibilities.

I think Anfauglir's response was based on what has been said in the bible.
 
Is there a part where god says "I've got a big secret, but I'm not telling you"

If so why bother with all of the rest of it?

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #268 on: April 10, 2013, 06:46:13 AM »
Actually, I haven't read the entire thread so I probably shouldn't have commented at all. Shame on me.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #269 on: April 10, 2013, 06:57:00 AM »
Actually, I haven't read the entire thread so I probably shouldn't have commented at all. Shame on me.


The possibilities that Anfauglir offers are based what we have been told in the bible.
Yes maybe this is flawed human logic but why would some things be made abundantly clear and other issues seem to be obscure.

I'd still be interested to hear your take on why this is.


Online Azdgari

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #270 on: April 10, 2013, 07:28:15 AM »
No, he hasn't. It's easy to tell he hasn't, because it was one of his possibilities.

This makes no sense as written, mm.  Did you mean to say something else?  You're saying here that Anfauglir didn't cover the "something other than what we can think of" category...because it was one of the possibilities he mentioned?  If he did, then wouldn't that mean that he did cover that possibility?  :-\
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #271 on: April 10, 2013, 08:53:36 AM »
The existence of an earthly realm means god is either not loving, or not omnipotent - or perhaps both.  Or, alternatively, that there IS no god.  Either way, there seems little reason to worship such a being.

Couldn't an omnipotent God also create mankind for reasons that fall outside your consideration of the possibilities?

I don't know - could he?

An omnipotent god would be able to create mankind in the state I outlined - where every single creation was entirely suited for heaven, and where nobody suffered or was tormented for eternity.

That has not happened, so if an omnipotent god exists, I can only see the other option as being that it is not loving.  If you wish to argue that there is an omnipotent, loving god, then you'd need to explain why a loving god, who was capable of ensuring nobody ever suffered, instead chose an option where many millions did.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online Azdgari

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #272 on: April 10, 2013, 10:13:42 AM »
^^ And why you, as a human, took it upon yourself to judge it to be good/loving.
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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #273 on: April 10, 2013, 11:57:40 AM »
The existence of an earthly realm means god is either not loving, or not omnipotent - or perhaps both.  Or, alternatively, that there IS no god.  Either way, there seems little reason to worship such a being.

Couldn't an omnipotent God also create mankind for reasons that fall outside your consideration of the possibilities?

I don't know - could he?

An omnipotent god would be able to create mankind in the state I outlined - where every single creation was entirely suited for heaven, and where nobody suffered or was tormented for eternity.

That has not happened, so if an omnipotent god exists, I can only see the other option as being that it is not loving.  If you wish to argue that there is an omnipotent, loving god, then you'd need to explain why a loving god, who was capable of ensuring nobody ever suffered, instead chose an option where many millions did.
Yeah, MM, and before you say, "It's because God gave us free will because He doesn't want a bunch of robots mindlessly worshipping Him", remember that if this is true, then because of "free will" there will be raping and killing in Heaven. You can't have your cake and eat it too, Motherfucker.
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #274 on: April 11, 2013, 06:20:46 AM »
You can't have your cake and eat it too, Motherfucker.

That's too far over the top.  Tone it down.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #275 on: April 11, 2013, 03:28:20 PM »

Yes, I'm sure that IS what you want.  It means that you can ignore all the hard questions that you've been asked.  Sorry, Junebug, it doesn't work that way.  You've made statements, you need to either explain them, or retract them.  Here are my questions again.....

So you are on record as saying that death is a GOOD thing, because - in your view - it transports people faster to be with god.

That is NOT what I said, that is YOUR interpretation of what I said,I am very sorry that I am having trouble articulating what I mean so that it is understood the way I meant it. I'm not trying to avoid any questions, but there are so many. I will have to admit I was overwhelmed.


So given that is the case, why should I feed the starving?  Why should I help the next person in want that I see?  If it gets them faster to god - to somewhere "much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED" - then why should I be so evil as to feed them?  Better surely to let them die and speed them to the paradise you are sure exists?

Because that is not caring about others. The answer you're referring to was why God don't feed starving children, He wants us to help each other and my point is that when we don't God is there to relieve that person of their suffering.

You also didn't actually answer my question about your son.  You waffled around the issue, but didn't actually answer the direct question I asked.  You picked up on one aspect, to avoid answering the main point - so I've removed the diversion, so it is clear exactly what I am asking.

When your son was hooked on drugs, it was a path that would lead him swiftly to "somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. (He would be) with God".  So....(w)hy did you take that evil action, denying him entry to a glorious place, free from the world of greed and united with god?

I welcome your questions Ang, I thought I answered your question, I'm sorry you didn't like my answer. I have never said that humans should not help humans, this pleases God. Just like I have said repeatedly WE should feed the hungry, WE should Love and Protect our children, and WE should stop hurting each other. How could I have pleased God if I had denied my son that precious LOVE that saved him from a life of despair, because to me the drugs would not have hurt him nearly as bad as a mother that didn't care.

It's okay for god not to help - you say - because it gets people to him sooner.  If you honestly and truly believe that, WHY do you try to help them live a little longer in this terrible world?  Why not just cut ALL aid now, and speed them to heaven?  Think how happy they will be!  How can we dare deny them that?  How can we even keep them from it for a day?

That is not what I said and you know it.  God's heart breaks infinity times ours every time we lose a child or one of us is murdered or raped or molested,etc.. I understand that it is best for mankind to eliminate these problems without God's "physical" help. I also understand that we need His spiritual guidance to show us the way.
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #276 on: April 11, 2013, 06:00:52 PM »
I understand that it is best for mankind to eliminate these problems without God's "physical" help.

If it's up to us to solve our problems, and your god either cannot or will not help in any substantive way, then your god is superfluous.

Why worship it at all, Junebug?  It's not behaving in a respectworthy manner if it refuses to use its powers for people who desperately need help, and whose circumstances preclude timely rescue by humans.  Worshipping such a do-nothing god really isn't very satisfying at all.

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #277 on: April 12, 2013, 03:09:00 AM »
It's okay for god not to help - you say - because it gets people to him sooner.  If you honestly and truly believe that, WHY do you try to help them live a little longer in this terrible world?  Why not just cut ALL aid now, and speed them to heaven?  Think how happy they will be!  How can we dare deny them that?  How can we even keep them from it for a day?

That is not what I said and you know it.  God's heart breaks infinity times ours every time we lose a child or one of us is murdered or raped or molested,etc..

No.  I DON'T know it Junebug.  You said very clearly that

God is the cure for death, those children aren't dead they are somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. They are with God.
  (I note that when you responded you ensured this quote was removed, so I've put it back in).

So why on earth does god's heart break when someone dies?  You've said that dying is NOT a bad thing to god - my heart never breaks over something I think is good.

(god) wants us to help each other and my point is that when we don't God is there to relieve that person of their suffering.

But again, why bother?  If we do nothing, they die, god steps in, and straight off to eternal happiness.  Are you honestly trying to tell me that another day of slightly-releived pain and hopelessness is BETTER than spending that day in heaven?

What you SEEM to be saying is that people need to suffer, because (in some fashion) this is a Good Thing for the people that help them.  Me, I'm not that selfish.  I'm prepared to take the hit myself, to not polish my soul that little bit, if by doing so I prevent some poor soul from reaching Heaven as soon as they can. 

But let's assume your god's heart DOES break every time someone is raped, or murdered, or whatever.  I find that very hard to believe.  He is an omnipotent being, and if he didn't want those things to happen, they would not happen.  But as you point out, he DOES want them to happen - because if they didn't, people like you wouldn't get to be a liiiiitle bit better for helping them.  So god allows those people to continue to suffer for YOUR benefit, Junebug.  Like I say, I'm not that selfish to want people to suffer on my account.

I wonder....does your god in some way engineer suffering, so that others can help them?  He certainly allows suffering to continue, so its not a big stretch to suggest that he maybe nudges some people into suffering.  But either way, what you need to consider is this.

Your son suffered so that YOU could help him and reap the benefit.  And this was good in your god's eyes.

Like I say - I'm not that selfish.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #278 on: April 14, 2013, 06:03:12 AM »
No, he hasn't. It's easy to tell he hasn't, because it was one of his possibilities.

This makes no sense as written, mm.  Did you mean to say something else?  You're saying here that Anfauglir didn't cover the "something other than what we can think of" category...because it was one of the possibilities he mentioned?  If he did, then wouldn't that mean that he did cover that possibility?  :-\

It did to me at the time. Now I'm too tired to work out what I meant.

Anyway, as I said, I shouldn't have entered this thread at all.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #279 on: April 17, 2013, 07:25:37 AM »
Never thought about it much until I started talking in this forum.
That's a good thing.

  Actually God is the same now as He has always been,a loving devoted Creator.
I wish we could make you begin to look at how much more amazing creation is w/o god, but with possible random processes and alot of time.
.......... of what bad religion has done to society.

It's not the beginning that makes me cling to God, it's the end. Yes being in awe of existence, is how I know God's there, but the comfort of having a Grand Master of Truth and Knowledge, to guide me through the process is the ultimate motivation.

 

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #280 on: April 17, 2013, 08:11:27 AM »
Whoah - way to dodge the questions!  Seems to be a common theme with you Junebug.  I note you ducked out of the other thread when things got too hard for you.  Sorry, but you are NOT going to be allowed to dodge and prevaricate, not when you keep making assertions of fact.

I just wanted to let you know I checked out that other thread and I don't see what you're problem with me leaving that conversation is. I answered all the difficult questions.

Did you now?  Funny, didn't see an answer to my last post.  Specifically:

I wonder....does your god in some way engineer suffering, so that others can help them?  He certainly allows suffering to continue, so its not a big stretch to suggest that he maybe nudges some people into suffering.  But either way, what you need to consider is this.

Your son suffered so that YOU could help him and reap the benefit.  And this was good in your god's eyes.

Like I say - I'm not that selfish.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline fides

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #281 on: May 02, 2013, 12:11:57 PM »
Okay I know this may sound stupid, but can you elaborate more as to how thats contradicting? I`m not disagreeing, I just literally don`t understand Dx

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #282 on: May 02, 2013, 12:37:21 PM »
You may have to be a bit more specific...it's been quite a few pages.  Do you mean the opening post?
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Offline RoxieJayy

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #283 on: May 27, 2013, 06:05:33 AM »
Just joined this website, & I gotta say ...I love how people who don't even believe in God know so much more about the Bible than most Christians now a days.

Offline DT

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself/No Contradiction
« Reply #284 on: June 01, 2013, 10:48:49 PM »
I'll give the bottom line upfront, though this may seem to be a contradiction it truly is not.
The issue is the word fool or in Greek/Hebrew it is moros (dull, stupid, insipid, without discernment) versus anoetos (unintelligent, fool-(ish), unwise, slow to understand truth) and whether  the individual is a believer (brother) or not.
In Matthew 5 Jesus is talking to believers saying one believer can not say to another believer you fool with hatred in his heart for that individual. So three things must be present to be in danger of fire: Believer to believer (note the number of times "brother" is used verses 21-24), murderous hatred, and then saying fool (moros, where we get moron).
The the times Jesus says fool (anoetos) it is to the Pharisees who had no love for their fellow man (the crucified Jesus) or those not excepting truth . So saying fool because of slowness to understand the truth is not going to place Jesus or someone in danger of fire.
Hope this helps


Offline The Gawd

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself/No Contradiction
« Reply #285 on: June 01, 2013, 11:12:49 PM »
I'll give the bottom line upfront, though this may seem to be a contradiction it truly is not.
The issue is the word fool or in Greek/Hebrew it is moros (dull, stupid, insipid, without discernment) versus anoetos (unintelligent, fool-(ish), unwise, slow to understand truth) and whether  the individual is a believer (brother) or not.
In Matthew 5 Jesus is talking to believers saying one believer can not say to another believer you fool with hatred in his heart for that individual. So three things must be present to be in danger of fire: Believer to believer (note the number of times "brother" is used verses 21-24), murderous hatred, and then saying fool (moros, where we get moron).
The the times Jesus says fool (anoetos) it is to the Pharisees who had no love for their fellow man (the crucified Jesus) or those not excepting truth . So saying fool because of slowness to understand the truth is not going to place Jesus or someone in danger of fire.
Hope this helps

Even without a vast knowledge of the particular words referenced in the original language, this explanation doesnt work. The Pharisees were Jews and Jesus would have been a Jew as well. They believed the same thing.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #286 on: June 10, 2013, 11:38:39 AM »
Just joined this website, & I gotta say ...I love how people who don't even believe in God know so much more about the Bible than most Christians now a days.

Anecdotes don't count as scholarly research.  Whatever sources your using to draw
your conclusions need to be cited.  Unless your just speaking off-the-cuff of course.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #287 on: June 10, 2013, 11:46:31 AM »
So why on earth does god's heart break when someone dies?

God feels for the people of the world.  If a child wanders out of the house built for them, God feels
the pain of the results if the child wanders into traffic.   If the child is "saved" is up for debate.
But those left behind feel some grief and God feels their torment, their fault or not.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #288 on: June 10, 2013, 12:04:10 PM »
God feels for the people of the world.

Really?  How do you know this?

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Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #289 on: June 10, 2013, 12:13:37 PM »
God feels for the people of the world.

Really?  How do you know this?

Some of what I know about God is documented in the scriptures.
I could provide any number of these references.

But a secular example is that I don't kill you this instant.
If God was not compassionate, I could eat you at any time.
But we both get to exist, so God must feel something for me
to allow me to exist.  We may be talking about the "god" of
natural selection in this case, but some rules are being made
that we are following.  And we seem to obey them for some
reason.

I'm new here.  Are we allowed to wander off the OP topic?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 12:17:45 PM by SkyWriting »