Author Topic: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself  (Read 23656 times)

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Offline sun_king

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #232 on: April 03, 2013, 05:34:30 PM »
Greatful, you cannot prove the book by quoting from same the book. If that logic is used, we are muggles, Thor is in exile and probably the Umbrella Corporation is running the world.

If I say Optimus Prime: "Sometimes even the wisest of men and machines can be in error" Episode: SOS Dinobots, it DOES NOT mean that Autobots are real.

So please stop quoting the book, it accomplishes nothing.


Offline greatful

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #233 on: April 03, 2013, 06:46:28 PM »
JEFFPT,
    No I'm not of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church and Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church. I didn't really know I needed to be. Yes, I read Three of the books of Enoch. I chose greatful because it is a play on words, not really, but I have been filled with the Holy Spirit and He is great and I'm grateful. Also knowing a little more about document dating, The so called experts date later if there is a prophecy that has been fullfilled in it that in the writing was wrote prior to, unless it be Nostradamus.
    "Ethiopia is one of the oldest locations of human existence known to scientists."Wiki. "A substantial population of Ethiopian Jews resided in Ethiopia until the 1980s but have since gradually emigrated to Israel."Wiki. The book of Enoch was once apart of the Ancient Hebrew Bible and "The Book of Enoch is an ancient Jewish religious work." Wiki. The Ethiopian have had it from ancient days and didn't get rid of it like the Book of Enoch had been rejected by the Jews because it contained prophecies pertaining to Jesus Christ and was accurate. If I don't believe and can't receive it lets get rid of it. Just because their messiah didn't come how they expected. Little do they know he comes twice. The Enoch books have been used and referenced by many religions, as you probably read, and was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. I know a lot of Christians and they don't even know there is a book of Enoch much less read it. Enoch didn't understand fully what he experienced just had it written down. After all he was just a goat herder previously referred to as.
    It was written to me earlier that I believe what I believe and that is it. Well, what I believe didn't come easy. I went to about every church I could find and studied their beliefs and almost all religions. I studied the Koran, went to a Catholic school (though I'm not Catholic), Eastern meditation and religions, Jewish meditation and religions, Buddhism, Latter Day Saints, Mormonism, Jehovah Witness,Christianity, Science, Darwin, and etc... Not only did I read and Study these but I also tried them out. I was in the Navy so I was able to travel the world and the US. and experience the cultures that went with them. What I found that they all had in common was Jesus in some form or another, expect maybe Darwinism but I never looked). I did my research before making a decision have you? I challenge you to simply say in the air out loud Jesus Christ if you are real reveal yourself to me and show me the truth. Now, give it a little time. I could give you another Bible scripture to why it isn't always instantaneously but I won't.

Offline greatful

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #234 on: April 03, 2013, 06:48:35 PM »
sun_king where did I quote a book with the same book?
 

Offline shnozzola

Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #235 on: April 03, 2013, 07:15:11 PM »
Quote
It was written to me earlier that I believe what I believe and that is it. Well, what I believe didn't come easy.

Greatful,
            Mind if I copy and use that quote?
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Offline sun_king

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #236 on: April 03, 2013, 09:00:26 PM »
sun_king where did I quote a book with the same book?

Your posts #221 and #230 has text from the Bible. Or were they put there randomly for decoration?

Wait a minute, did you say Buddha has something in common with Christ???

And BTW, I did say "Jesus Christ if you are real reveal yourself to me and show me the truth"

... waiting.

I also asked the milk jug to give me a new Ferrari.

... waiting.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #237 on: April 04, 2013, 03:16:47 AM »
I challenge you to simply say in the air out loud Jesus Christ if you are real reveal yourself to me and show me the truth. Now, give it a little time. I could give you another Bible scripture to why it isn't always instantaneously but I won't.

(yawn).  Once again, this challenge.  Sorry, grate, but I did that years ago, and I'm still waiting.  Now to me, it looks like there is nobody actually there to answer.  But go ahead, give me your bible verse.  But make sure that it tallies with a Christ that wants to get to know me, and loves me, and wants a relationship with me.  Because anyone who wants those three things, AND who has the power of a god, would be straight back to me with a response.

Also interested to know how Jesus the space alien would know I'd said it in the first place.  Do they have all of us bugged all the time?  Is the delayed response due to the time it takes for the message to be passed from sureillance crews up to field operations?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #238 on: April 04, 2013, 03:17:37 AM »
.....harken back to the great debate between KCrady and Fran, wherein Fran claimed the resurrection was real and KCrady said it was more likely jesus H was a space alien.  One reason being life exists on earth, therefore could ostensibly exist outside earth.....

Actually, that was me and Fran.  But I did get a warm fuzzy feeling from being mistaken for the Great KC!
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #239 on: April 04, 2013, 06:02:30 AM »
I challenge you to simply say in the air out loud Jesus Christ if you are real reveal yourself to me and show me the truth. Now, give it a little time.

Two questions...

1)  How much time?  If you can't at least give an estimate, then your challenge is meaningless.  I might as well be saying the same thing to a rock, because I wouldn't be able to tell the difference, right?

2)  You are asking me to put my entire worldview on the line, and that being the case, I expect you to be willing to do the same.  So I, in turn, offer you this challenge: If I accept your challenge and Jesus Christ does not reveal himself to me, you agree to become an atheist.  If you do not accept my counterproposal, then your challenge is meaningless, and I discard it.  It would be functionally equivalent to you flipping a coin and saying, "Heads I win, tails doesn't count."
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #240 on: April 04, 2013, 07:36:08 AM »
greatful,

why dont you introduce yourself in the introduction forum, that way you can tell us what you believe so we dont have to assume or argue agaist strawmen. You see we never get two theists who believe the same thing, for example your usage of Enoch usually isnt used and it opens different doors like the ones that have been addressed in this thread we normally dont get to use (using Enoch to falsify your claim of it being scientifically accurate).

Also, you may want to engage us to see if any of us... or most of us actually USED to be Christians instead of engaging us as if we have no  idea of your holy books and the tenants of your religion. I mean, to question whether we "asked Jesus to reveal himself" to us when many of us have spent decades in various churches doing exactly that, just smacks of literally no research being done on your target audience.

Once attaining the knowledge on your target audience (us atheists) you can then get at the meat of the issue by finding out why we view your holy book as any other work of fiction. In turn you can provide evidence as to why we should take your book more seriously and possibly treat it as if it were non-fiction.

 8)

Offline Tonus

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #241 on: April 04, 2013, 07:45:37 AM »
I tire of people who claim in one breath that it's easy to connect with god, then excuse themselves by claiming that if we don't connect, we're just not doing it right.  The more you explain how you tried to connect with god, the more and more difficult it suddenly becomes to do so, and the less and less sincere you must have been in order to fail.  God sure does work hard to make sure that we can't get to know him.  It's almost as if he doesn't exist at all.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #242 on: April 04, 2013, 08:13:48 AM »
I'm not really calling God a space alien. I'm just trying to put it into different terms.

Now that you've said this, I have no idea what your point is.  You talk about god being an alien, and now he's not.  You are not communicating clearly.  Your point is incoherent. 

God (YHWH)(I AM) knew people would have a problem with him not showing himself, so he did.

That is debatable.  Even if he did then, he's stopped.  Why?

The last straw for the Pharisees was that Jesus called himself I AM. They couldn't comprehend it so they killed him.

No they didn't.  The Romans killed him. 

And if they could not comprehend him, how was that their fault?  If yhwh is omnipotent, then explaining himself in a convincing manner should not be impossible.  If he really wanted them to understand, they would have.

Besides, that interpretation of the relationship between jesus H and the Pharisees is probably incorrect. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees#Pharisees_and_Christianity
Quote
Rather than an accurate account of Jesus' relationship to Pharisees and other Jewish leaders, this view holds that the Gospels instead reflect the competition and conflict between early Christians and Pharisees for leadership of the Jews, or reflects Christian attempts to distance themselves from Jews in order to present themselves in a more sympathetic (and benign) light to Romans and other Gentiles

Well, he has visited many time and to many people in the Bible.

Allegedly. 

And where has he been since then?  Why is god not permanently visible on a throne in the sky?  Why is he so coy now?

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #243 on: April 04, 2013, 08:19:09 AM »
Actually, that was me and Fran. 

Doh!  A zillion pardons. 

I would swear KC made an alien argument at some point around here...
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #244 on: April 04, 2013, 11:35:23 AM »
greatful ,

Could you please learn how to use spacing and paragraphs?  It's hard to read a long post when all the words are brunched together.
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #245 on: April 05, 2013, 10:29:23 PM »
Yes, I read Three of the books of Enoch.

Yet I don't see a single admonition that you were wrong about it.  Did you not read closely?  Did you skip over the parts that were borderline mentally retarded and just focus on the parts that loosely correlate with scientific knowledge that many people had back in those times?  Why did you not comment about the passages I quoted?  Do you just think... 'well, yeah some of it is pretty whacko, but these other parts over here really give credit to what I'm saying'.  Do you see how nutty that is?  The fact that the author says Uriel the angel gave him all this knowledge is completely invalidated the very second you see something stupid like 'a chariot pulls the sun across the sky'.  It's a huge loss for you.  Are you blind to that fact?  You can no longer claim with any seriousness that an angel gave him that information.  You just can't. 

I chose greatful because it is a play on words, not really, but I have been filled with the Holy Spirit and He is great and I'm grateful.

Can we just stick with the truth please?  Grateful is a very commonly misspelled word.  You misspelled it.  Lying here doesn't help your case.  It makes you look very Christian. 

Also knowing a little more about document dating, The so called experts date later if there is a prophecy that has been fullfilled in it that in the writing was wrote prior to, unless it be Nostradamus.

When we don't know who wrote something or when it was written, that is a pretty safe thing to do, is it not?  If you ran into a book in the library that told you all about World War II, you'd assume it was written after WWII, wouldn't you?  Does that seem wrong?  Who in their right mind would claim it was written before WWII?  Why do you think the book of Enoch should be treated differently? 

The Ethiopian have had it from ancient days and didn't get rid of it like the Book of Enoch had been rejected by the Jews because it contained prophecies pertaining to Jesus Christ and was accurate.
Can you point out where in the Book of Enoch is mentions Jesus Christ? 

The Enoch books have been used and referenced by many religions, as you probably read, and was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
The dead sea scrolls have nothing to do with Jesus.  They were Jewish scrolls about Jewish life during the time period around which Jesus (if he existed at all) lived.  Some OT stuff was there as well, but nothing about Jesus. 

I know a lot of Christians and they don't even know there is a book of Enoch much less read it.
Because it's got nothing to do with Christians.  It's an ancient Jewish work. 

It was written to me earlier that I believe what I believe and that is it. Well, what I believe didn't come easy. I went to about every church I could find and studied their beliefs and almost all religions.
That's nice.  Did you ever stop to consider that maybe there's no God after all, and all of those different religions that you've studied are equal versions of untruth?  That maybe... just maybe... people WANT there to be some sort of deity out there watching over them and loving them, when in reality, there is no such thing? 

What I found that they all had in common was Jesus in some form or another
You mean some sort of part human thing that embodied an ideal for the believer?  You see greatful, people worship the ideal of Jesus, not the actuality of him.  Just like all religions.  They pick some sort of charismatic figure like Mohammed, Buddha, Hercules, Jesus, etc, and they say, 'yes, look at him. If we could all just be like him' and instead of saying you want to be good, you say you want to 'be like Jesus'.  It's your personification of goodness.  It has nothing to do with truth, but it has everything to do with giving yourself something to aspire to.  The atheist wants to be good too; we just don't put a person with as if someone is the embodiment of good. 

expect maybe Darwinism but I never looked.
The idea that Darwinism is some sort of religious belief is ridiculous. 

I did my research before making a decision have you?
Yes, but I also asked the question of whether or not God is real first.  I think you skipped that part. 

I challenge you to simply say in the air out loud Jesus Christ if you are real reveal yourself to me and show me the truth. Now, give it a little time. I could give you another Bible scripture to why it isn't always instantaneously but I won't.

You're not the first person that's asked this of us.  Most of us, at some point, have done it.  When I did it, I felt really stupid.  Like I was talking to myself, which I actually was.  I'd like you to show me proof that Jesus actually responds to you when you do it though.  And proof that rules out the possibility that something else couldn't have done it or that it was simply natural occurrences. 

But I've said this before... this is a trap.  It's a mental trap, greatful.  It forces the mind to see what it wants to see.  If you WANT to find Jesus, and you ask to find Jesus, your mind will find it.  You'll start thinking of that voice in your head as Jesus.  You'll start to see mundane, every-day things that happen to be in your favor as evidence that Jesus is working for you.  And when you ask, but don't find it, either A: you have to wait longer or B: you're doing it wrong and Jesus won't talk to you, which just makes you want to try harder to find Jesus.  The problem is that I know there is a C: that Jesus isn't real.  That's the third option that you, in all your study, seem to have skipped right over.  Instead of saying "Is God real?" you started with "which version of God is real?".  Fundamental error on your part.     
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #246 on: April 06, 2013, 09:50:19 AM »
Rather than taking the time to quote each one individually, I want to just post a general response. 

Believing in God is not an easy thing to do.  I get my information on evolution and big bang theories from the History Channel and Science channels hosted by reputable scientist, and they only deepen my beliefs.  INstead of explaining the holes in the theory you insult my intelligence. I may think you're stupid for buying into those theories and not Creation, but that is not how I feel. There are plenty of college grads that believe in God, I suppose they are dumb as well?  Not everybody is unintelligent that believes in God. There is no denying that there is a spirit in every living creature, and when the outer shell wears out that spirit is released.  God is my spirit guide, He brings me inner peace. Religion is an obstacle that has brought man further from God. Just a few days ago I was watching a religious program called "The Supernatural." This guy claimed to have went to Heaven under a trance and received wisdom from Jesus, Isaiah, Elijah, and Moses. Needless to say it'll cost you $40 to hear what they had to say! What a Hypocrite! Not one of the programs I've seen so far refrain from begging for money! Sure I'm sure some of it gets to the needy, but you and I both know where a lot of it ends up!Oh man, people out there by the hundreds taking money from people with pictures of starving kids, it sickens my stomach. Well enough about that. Sorry.

I am here solely out of the kindness of my heart and to share my personal experiences with you. As far as what you call Spag, let me say this, I am proud to be a Spagette! It takes a lot of courage to stand up to religious hogwash, you Atheist know this too well. Where I differ from you is that I see it as false doctrine and decided to know God on a personal level instead of writing the Ancient belief off.

There is no simple way of explaining how God works in our lives, but there remains a soul inside me that has calmed since I gave God control of my life. I want to share that peace and tranquility with you.

Omnipotence? I do not know the extinct of God's power. I know it's much more than my own. Never thought about it much until I started talking in this forum. It is possible to me that there are fundamental "laws of the universe" that even God must follow. I'm sure I'll get a lot of negative remarks on that one, but since it's my spag, I can do what I want! I still say it's better to offer a new and improved God than no God at all-sad attempt at sarcasm.  Actually God is the same now as He has always been,a loving devoted Creator. The religions have twisted mankind's understanding of God by following the teachings of  dishonest men. Once man figured out it was a good way to make a living we were screwed! It is my wish to spread God's Love and undo,if just a small segment, of what bad religion has done to society.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline shnozzola

Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #247 on: April 06, 2013, 10:12:05 AM »
Never thought about it much until I started talking in this forum.
That's a good thing.

  Actually God is the same now as He has always been,a loving devoted Creator.
I wish we could make you begin to look at how much more amazing creation is w/o god, but with possible random processes and alot of time.
.......... of what bad religion has done to society.
Perhaps folks from other religions are also sincere.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #248 on: April 06, 2013, 10:14:08 AM »
Believing in God is not an easy thing to do.

Thanks for acknowledging that.  Many xians act as if we were stupid for not thinking god is an obvious given.

I get my information on evolution and big bang theories from the History Channel and Science channels

Bad.  Bad, bad, bad. Those are not designed to instruct.  They are designed to be consumed and to sell advertising.  Try a book.  Here are several:

http://www.amazon.com/Pandas-Thumb-Reflections-Natural-History/dp/0393308197
http://www.amazon.com/Best-Books-Evolution-Published-Decade/lm/R6SZF692OH56G

here is a website:
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs.html

here is a good quote from physicist Richard Feynman that I found at Talk Origins website.  It totally applies to you:
Quote
"... there are many reasons why you might not understand [an explanation of a scientific theory] ... Finally, there is this possibility: after I tell you something, you just can't believe it. You can't accept it. You don't like it. A little screen comes down and you don't listen anymore. I'm going to describe to you how Nature is - and if you don't like it, that's going to get in the way of your understanding it. It's a problem that [scientists] have learned to deal with: They've learned to realize that whether they like a theory or they don't like a theory is not the essential question. Rather, it is whether or not the theory gives predictions that agree with experiment. It is not a question of whether a theory is philosophically delightful, or easy to understand, or perfectly reasonable from the point of view of common sense. [A scientific theory] describes Nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And it agrees fully with experiment. So I hope you can accept Nature as She is - absurd.

I'm going to have fun telling you about this absurdity, because I find it delightful. Please don't turn yourself off because you can't believe Nature is so strange. Just hear me all out, and I hope you'll be as delighted as I am when we're through. "

- Richard P. Feynman (1918-1988),


There is no denying that there is a spirit in every living creature, and when the outer shell wears out that spirit is released.

I deny it.  That is just wishful thinking.

I don't get why you say these things. I truly do not. 

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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #249 on: April 06, 2013, 10:15:35 AM »
Believing in God is not an easy thing to do.

Considering the numbers of believers out there, I have my doubts about this.


Quote
I get my information on evolution and big bang theories from the History Channel and Science channels hosted by reputable scientist, and they only deepen my beliefs.  INstead of explaining the holes in the theory you insult my intelligence.


Proof of critical research failure.  You need to do more than watch dodgy tv shows.  Read books.  Email actual scientists, go to reputable websites, etc.  Really, it's not that hard to learn things nowadays.


Quote
There is no denying that there is a spirit in every living creature, and when the outer shell wears out that spirit is released. 


I deny that there spirit in every living creature.


Quote
God is my spirit guide, He brings me inner peace.

This jug of milk is my spirit guide, it brings me inner peace.  I see no difference between my statement and yours.


Quote
Religion is an obstacle that has brought man further from God. Just a few days ago I was watching a religious program called "The Supernatural." This guy claimed to have went to Heaven under a trance and received wisdom from Jesus, Isaiah, Elijah, and Moses. Needless to say it'll cost you $40 to hear what they had to say! What a Hypocrite! Not one of the programs I've seen so far refrain from begging for money! Sure I'm sure some of it gets to the needy, but you and I both know where a lot of it ends up!Oh man, people out there by the hundreds taking money from people with pictures of starving kids, it sickens my stomach. Well enough about that. Sorry.

If you understand that religion is hogwash, then why make up your own?


Quote
As far as what you call Spag, let me say this, I am proud to be a Spagette! It takes a lot of courage to stand up to religious hogwash, you Atheist know this too well. Where I differ from you is that I see it as false doctrine and decided to know God on a personal level instead of writing the Ancient belief off.


Somehow. I'm not sure you grasp what "SPAG" means.


Quote
There is no simple way of explaining how God works in our lives, but there remains a soul inside me that has calmed since I gave God control of my life. I want to share that peace and tranquility with you.


I have peace and tranquility in my life.  No god required.


Quote
but since it's my spag, I can do what I want! I still say it's better to offer a new and improved God than no God at all-sad attempt at sarcasm.  Actually God is the same now as He has always been,a loving devoted Creator

Wow, you really don't know what "SPAG" refers to.  Self-Projection As God.  It means that your god is nothing more than a projection of your own vaules and ideals.  This is why you agree with your god 100% of the times, and why he always appears to share your vaules and ideals.  When you say "God is the same now as He has always been", you're really saying "My vaules and ideals are the same now as they've always been".
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #250 on: April 06, 2013, 10:45:30 AM »
You admitted to piecing together your god from several versions of other peoples versions of gods, thus you created your god.

What I have admitted to is not limiting myself to religion to guide me. Where should I have looked? As far as I can tell these are the only sources available. It is up to the individual to process the information they receive and use it according to their own sense of right and wrong. Why should anyone think that one race of people is the only race that knows anything about God? Greeks write of their gods like they interacted with mankind, and usually brought chaos with them. They were petty and cruel gods.If those gods were made up why did they make them up to be so petty and cruel? No competition for the 1 God of the Jews, who brought Love and Comfort, through good times and bad, to the people that followed Him. For those of us who believe, but do not accept current teachings; there is not many places to go but your own heart.



Thank you "Life of PI" for making me feel not alone!
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #251 on: April 06, 2013, 11:14:29 AM »
You admitted to piecing together your god from several versions of other peoples versions of gods, thus you created your god.

What I have admitted to is not limiting myself to religion to guide me. Where should I have looked? As far as I can tell these are the only sources available. It is up to the individual to process the information they receive and use it according to their own sense of right and wrong. Why should anyone think that one race of people is the only race that knows anything about God? Greeks write of their gods like they interacted with mankind, and usually brought chaos with them. They were petty and cruel gods.If those gods were made up why did they make them up to be so petty and cruel? No competition for the 1 God of the Jews, who brought Love and Comfort, through good times and bad, to the people that followed Him. For those of us who believe, but do not accept current teachings; there is not many places to go but your own heart.



Thank you "Life of PI" for making me feel not alone!

The god of the Jews is described in the OT... that god is far from love and comfort. That is the god that demands that you as a lesbian ought be stoned. The gods of the Roman mythology are far superior to yahweh in that they clearly had human traits and were not said to be omni-whatever, and their myths also supported that notion. In Jewish mythology (which originated as a pantheon of gods much like Greek and Roman mythology) the god figure evolved into whatever each individual person wants them to be (thus SPAG, you are creating your own god). But the actual texts dont support him being good or omni-max, he is exactly like the other myths.

You SHOULD have looked to see if any of this god talk makes any sense. Literally every single answer we have works fine with no god. What we dont know we simply dont know. God of the gaps simply doesnt work, as has been proven over and over again by the shrinking gaps where god used to fit. The only thing your heart does is pump blood. You may have a feeling inside you, but that is your humanity, not magic. Magic doesnt exist.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #252 on: April 06, 2013, 11:16:28 AM »


Proof of critical research failure.  You need to do more than watch dodgy tv shows.  Read books.  Email actual scientists, go to reputable websites, etc.  Really, it's not that hard to learn things nowadays.


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There is no denying that there is a spirit in every living creature, and when the outer shell wears out that spirit is released. 


I deny that there spirit in every living creature.

Do you deny the human spirit?

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God is my spirit guide, He brings me inner peace.

This jug of milk is my spirit guide, it brings me inner peace.  I see no difference between my statement and yours.





If you understand that religion is hogwash, then why make up your own?

I am not trying to start a new religion just sharing my thoughts.


Somehow. I'm not sure you grasp what "SPAG" means.

I grasp it just fine, it's the atheist way of brushing off people like me. In a way I agree with you, this is mine. I realize that you perceive my story in a way that is not my actual story.  It is your duty to scrutinize what I am telling you. I'd rather be spagging than denying!

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There is no simple way of explaining how God works in our lives, but there remains a soul inside me that has calmed since I gave God control of my life. I want to share that peace and tranquility with you.


I have peace and tranquility in my life.  No god required.

That makes me happy for you. :)


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but since it's my spag, I can do what I want! I still say it's better to offer a new and improved God than no God at all-sad attempt at sarcasm.  Actually God is the same now as He has always been,a loving devoted Creator

Wow, you really don't know what "SPAG" refers to.  Self-Projection As God.  It means that your god is nothing more than a projection of your own vaules and ideals.  This is why you agree with your god 100% of the times, and why he always appears to share your vaules and ideals.  When you say "God is the same now as He has always been", you're really saying "My vaules and ideals are the same now as they've always been".

PS. I do not always agree with God. I can get angry, been there done that. When the dust settled our friendship had grown.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #253 on: April 06, 2013, 11:29:57 AM »

The god of the Jews is described in the OT... that god is far from love and comfort. That is the god that demands that you as a lesbian ought be stoned. The gods of the Roman mythology are far superior to yahweh in that they clearly had human traits and were not said to be omni-whatever, and their myths also supported that notion. In Jewish mythology (which originated as a pantheon of gods much like Greek and Roman mythology) the god figure evolved into whatever each individual person wants them to be (thus SPAG, you are creating your own god). But the actual texts dont support him being good or omni-max, he is exactly like the other myths.

You SHOULD have looked to see if any of this god talk makes any sense. Literally every single answer we have works fine with no god. What we dont know we simply dont know. God of the gaps simply doesnt work, as has been proven over and over again by the shrinking gaps where god used to fit. The only thing your heart does is pump blood. You may have a feeling inside you, but that is your humanity, not magic. Magic doesnt exist.

The point I keep trying to make is that a relationship with God is an individual experience; one that is different for all who choose to participate, so it's only natural for there to be some of yourself in your belief. 

I make no distinction between Jewish God and Roman Catholic God, etc... They are one in the same and the stories behind them are no different from my own, told by real people just trying to understand the meaning of life and how we came to be and why.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Online wheels5894

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #254 on: April 06, 2013, 11:43:14 AM »
I make no distinction between Jewish God and Roman Catholic God, etc... They are one in the same and the stories behind them are no different from my own, told by real people just trying to understand the meaning of life and how we came to be and why.

So the bible isn't all that important to you? Where else do you get guidance on what you believe and how you live your life?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #255 on: April 06, 2013, 11:49:58 AM »
junebug72, please fix your formatting in post #252.  It's hard to respond to something when two people comments are mixed together.


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Do you deny the human spirit?

Define "human spirit".  If you mean as in "the will to get something done", we certainly have that, but there's nothing magical or mythological about it.

If by "human spirit", you mean "a magical/mythological power within all of us", then yes, I deny it completely absolutely wholeheartedly.  The reason being is that no one has demostrated that it exists.


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I am not trying to start a new religion just sharing my thoughts.

Your god is a composite of other gods.  His vaules are your own.  Sounds like a new religion.


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PS. I do not always agree with God. I can get angry, been there done that. When the dust settled our friendship had grown.

What things do you not agree with god on, then?

Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #256 on: April 06, 2013, 11:55:18 AM »

The god of the Jews is described in the OT... that god is far from love and comfort. That is the god that demands that you as a lesbian ought be stoned. The gods of the Roman mythology are far superior to yahweh in that they clearly had human traits and were not said to be omni-whatever, and their myths also supported that notion. In Jewish mythology (which originated as a pantheon of gods much like Greek and Roman mythology) the god figure evolved into whatever each individual person wants them to be (thus SPAG, you are creating your own god). But the actual texts dont support him being good or omni-max, he is exactly like the other myths.

You SHOULD have looked to see if any of this god talk makes any sense. Literally every single answer we have works fine with no god. What we dont know we simply dont know. God of the gaps simply doesnt work, as has been proven over and over again by the shrinking gaps where god used to fit. The only thing your heart does is pump blood. You may have a feeling inside you, but that is your humanity, not magic. Magic doesnt exist.

The point I keep trying to make is that a relationship with God is an individual experience; one that is different for all who choose to participate, so it's only natural for there to be some of yourself in your belief. 

I make no distinction between Jewish God and Roman Catholic God, etc... They are one in the same and the stories behind them are no different from my own, told by real people just trying to understand the meaning of life and how we came to be and why.

You still have not looked to see if god actually exists... thats the point. You went looking for a god, any feeling you got you called god then built your gods story around what you liked. You made your god up, is the point. Those other people made their god up the same way you did yours. Thats why their god hates gays, but yours doesnt. Thats why their god loves slavery. Thats why your god probably treats women the same as men, and theirs treats women as property.

I didnt mention Roman Catholics, I mentioned Roman mythology as in Zeus et all (although I can see how the two would be confusing considering its essentially the same thing... read about Hercules). yahweh is EXACTLY the same as those gods in his autobiography, the bible. That is no surprise because theyre all just made up by people. Ignorant people when compared to today. Would you use a science book that was written 2000 years ago? Farming techniques from over 2000 years ago? Weapons from over 2000 years ago? No, all that is antiquated.

Offline Tonus

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #257 on: April 06, 2013, 10:11:06 PM »
Believing in God is not an easy thing to do.

I found it very easy to do.  When you are raised to believe in something and are part of a cult that reinforces those beliefs by constant repetition and by strictly forbidding you to read anything contrary, you wind up with a default belief that seems much more secure than it really is.  But in a day and age where so much information is within easy reach, it's less and less excusable to be so insulated.

Then again, many people "find god" later in life, often after some soul-searching.  When we have a reason to want to believe in something that isn't there, we can also build a belief system that is propped up by something other than reason.  For a person like that, I agree that believing can be difficult, because you're going against the mechanisms of belief that you employ differently in every other part of your life.  It requires effort to take that one facet of your life and force it to work in a way that is not intuitive.  But lots of people manage to do it.

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #258 on: April 07, 2013, 10:31:09 PM »
Believing in God is not an easy thing to do.

I completely and totally disagree with you Junebug.  Believing in God is the ultimate easy answer to every question ever asked.  It's the 'I don't want to dig deep into the natural possibilities as to how we got here, I just want the easy answer' approach.  Learning how things really happened is MUCH harder and MUCH more time consuming to figure out. 

If you meant, 'believing in an all powerful and at the same time, an all loving God is not easy', then I agree with you, but only if you look at the facts and the evidence.  Because the evidence is massively against it.  It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to excuse away all the awful things in the world. 

I get my information on evolution and big bang theories from the History Channel and Science channels hosted by reputable scientist, and they only deepen my beliefs.

No, no, no.  Don't go there.  Some of those programs are good but some are really, really bad.  Don't take it upon yourself to try and figure out which are which.  I believe it was Screwtape who mentioned some decent starting points. 

It is without a single bit of trepidation that I say to you that if you really understood evolutionary theory, it would not deepen your beliefs.  It would give you an alternate explanation about how we got to where we are without the necessity of a supernatural being. 

INstead of explaining the holes in the theory you insult my intelligence.
Do you know how frustrating it is to talk with someone who doesn't accept a theory based on a horrible understanding of what the theory actually says?  It's one of the most tedious, mind numbing exercises in futility that exist on the planet.  Its like we have to do all the work for you.  Go do the real work yourself.  See what the experts are saying about it.  We aren't your babysitters and you're not 12 years old anymore. 

There are plenty of college grads that believe in God, I suppose they are dumb as well?
Believing in God doesn't make you dumb.  It makes you ill-informed, sometimes gullible, and naive, but not dumb. 

There is no denying that there is a spirit in every living creature, and when the outer shell wears out that spirit is released.
I deny that fully until you can prove it. 

God is my spirit guide, He brings me inner peace.
If God didn't exist but you really believed it did, this would still bring you 'inner peace'.  Just ask people of other religions who believe in other gods who get 'inner peace' from their gods.  It is your belief that he's there that gives you peace.  And why not?  Wouldn't having an omnipotent, omniscient, omni-benevolent father figure watching over you night and day be just a wee bit comforting?  This is what you've created in your brain.  It doesn't have to exist to give you comfort, you only have to believe it does. 

Religion is an obstacle that has brought man further from God.

Stop.  Stop right there.  You, Junebug, practice a religion.  Here is the definition of religion from Merriam Webster. 

religion:

1. the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2. a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

That is you.  This is what you practice.  You believe that OTHER peoples interpretation of THEIR religion is the problem, but of course not yours, right? 

Just a few days ago I was watching a religious program called "The Supernatural." This guy claimed to have went to Heaven under a trance and received wisdom from Jesus, Isaiah, Elijah, and Moses. Needless to say it'll cost you $40 to hear what they had to say! What a Hypocrite! Not one of the programs I've seen so far refrain from begging for money! Sure I'm sure some of it gets to the needy, but you and I both know where a lot of it ends up!Oh man, people out there by the hundreds taking money from people with pictures of starving kids, it sickens my stomach. Well enough about that. Sorry.

It sickens ours too, but if you believe Jesus, Isaiah, Elijah and Moses as described in the bible all existed, then why do you think he's lying about his experiences?  Are you saying it's more likely that he's lying about it?  Why?  If he wasn't charging 40 dollars a pop, would you find him more convincing? Why is it reasonable to accept that ANYONE has taken wisdom from 4 dead people who, if they lived, all died more than a couple thousand years ago? 

But do you know why programs like that are profitable?  Because huge swaths of religious people are already very much gullible, naive and ill informed.  It often comes with the territory of being religious.  They fall for that far more easily than your average educated non-believer.  Did you know there is a man who sells pet insurance to people who believe in the rapture?  He says he will take care of your pets after you're swept on up to heaven.  And he makes money at it!  It's like candy from a baby. 

It takes a lot of courage to stand up to religious hogwash, you Atheist know this too well. Where I differ from you is that I see it as false doctrine and decided to know God on a personal level instead of writing the Ancient belief off.

Again with this?  So 7 billion people have it wrong, but Junebug has it right?  Uh huh.  I can point to a few billion people who feel EXACTLY the way that you do, and they would all disagree with your beliefs.  You should really let that sink in.  As right as you 'feel' you are, there are billions of people who 'feel' exactly the same way, and don't share your positions.

People who are deluded really have no ability to see that they are deluded.  I think Mark Twain said... "It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled."  Remember that. 

There is no simple way of explaining how God works in our lives, but there remains a soul inside me that has calmed since I gave God control of my life. I want to share that peace and tranquility with you.
Thank you, but most of us here have shed any need for the mental crutch that is God belief.  I don't need to believe in an invisible sky person to control my life. 

Omnipotence? I do not know the extinct of God's power. I know it's much more than my own.
Prove it.  Show me what God can do that you can't.  And you have to show that nothing... no other natural explanation could possibly trump your God theory. 

It is possible to me that there are fundamental "laws of the universe" that even God must follow.

Then who made those rules?  God's god?  If God is bound by fundamental laws, there are no miracles?  You are right... this is a hornet's nest waiting to happen.  There are so many problems with it. 

I still say it's better to offer a new and improved God than no God at all-sad attempt at sarcasm.
What you're offering is no more in evidence than anything else that has ever been offered up before. 

Actually God is the same now as He has always been,a loving devoted Creator.
...who stands by and watches while horrible, painful death takes millions of people and trillions of other life forms every year.  Feel the love....

The religions have twisted mankind's understanding of God by following the teachings of  dishonest men.
If the person who invented God was just a dishonest man, everything that came after it is probably a lie. 

It is my wish to spread God's Love and undo,if just a small segment, of what bad religion has done to society.
God isn't real Junebug.  If you want to be happy and pick flowers and sing songs, feel free.  But whatever love you're spreading, its not from God; its all you. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #259 on: April 09, 2013, 04:09:15 AM »
Rather than taking the time to quote each one individually, I want to just post a general response......

Yes, I'm sure that IS what you want.  It means that you can ignore all the hard questions that you've been asked.  Sorry, Junebug, it doesn't work that way.  You've made statements, you need to either explain them, or retract them.  Here are my questions again.....

In response to us asking why your god didn't feed the starving, when he has the means and the ability, YOU SAID:

Do you think dying is a bad thing to God.  Man fears death not God, God is the cure for death, those children aren't dead they are somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. They are with God.

So you are on record as saying that death is a GOOD thing, because - in your view - it transports people faster to be with god.

So given that is the case, why should I feed the starving?  Why should I help the next person in want that I see?  If it gets them faster to god - to somewhere "much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED" - then why should I be so evil as to feed them?  Better surely to let them die and speed them to the paradise you are sure exists?

You also didn't actually answer my question about your son.  You waffled around the issue, but didn't actually answer the direct question I asked.  You picked up on one aspect, to avoid answering the main point - so I've removed the diversion, so it is clear exactly what I am asking.

When your son was hooked on drugs, it was a path that would lead him swiftly to "somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. (He would be) with God".  So....(w)hy did you take that evil action, denying him entry to a glorious place, free from the world of greed and united with god?

It's okay for god not to help - you say - because it gets people to him sooner.  If you honestly and truly believe that, WHY do you try to help them live a little longer in this terrible world?  Why not just cut ALL aid now, and speed them to heaven?  Think how happy they will be!  How can we dare deny them that?  How can we even keep them from it for a day?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #260 on: April 09, 2013, 10:29:06 AM »
^
I wonder if junebug72 knows that she've been caught in a corner, and she's trying to avoid dealing with the starving children question.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.