Author Topic: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself  (Read 18787 times)

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Offline Jag

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #203 on: March 27, 2013, 03:17:46 PM »
^^^ Sorry, I was editing while you were replying and we crossed in transit. My bad.

I think we actually agree on this topic, more or less.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline Jag

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #204 on: March 27, 2013, 03:19:25 PM »
And we're moving from a conversation about belief to one about truth. I HAVE to stop for a while and get some work done - I'll try to visit this again later today.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #205 on: March 27, 2013, 03:21:51 PM »
Ok, yeah probably wasn't a good example since that's proven. But you can still use that theory for things that aren't. Take care and get at it. I'll holla

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #206 on: March 27, 2013, 11:09:27 PM »
I would never follow someone that does not care if they offend someone or not. Especially if I thought it would make me mean.

Thank you for proving my point.  You lead with emotions.  You're far more worried about how a post makes you feel as opposed to what the actual arguments are. 

I temper my emotions just fine thank you.

Yes, but you temper your emotions with more emotion.  In my experiences, women are more emotional than men, so it doesn't surprise me all that much.  And religious women are unbelievably emotional.  Again, that's just my experiences. 

If you did you would know that yes I once was Atheist, now I am not. I am not Christian, Apologetic, or any of the rest of that stuff, I am own my own, I call it Spiritual. I know there is a spirit that lives within me, I can feel it trapped inside walls of flesh.  That is the part of me that God wants. The inside.

Yes... I'm sure you were once an atheist lol.  Pardon me for thinking your lying.  I'd bet cash money that you were raised with religion and to believe in a god, even if you didn't follow that specific path as life passed by for you. 

There is no spirit living inside of you.  You ARE walls of flesh.  When your brain ceases working, you just stop existing.  It's just what you want to believe with no proof at all behind it.  Show me even one spec of data that shows there's a spirit living inside of you that is separate from your body.  I dare you. 

Not a good comparison.  Creation is my definition of how we came to be, our purpose for surviving this life.  Unicorns don't offer any answers to our existence, if they do I certainly have not heard that one but I wouldn't bite unless the argument that unicorns created man and earth made some sense.

Where to begin with this one....

So your argument is that for a claim to be valid, it has to offer an answer to our existence?  I can't just claim stuff and expect you to believe it.... UNLESS it explains our entire existence?  And THEN it's valid, no matter how dumb it is?  My unicorn example explains, in great detail, and with much logical sense, why the tires in my car don't go flat.  Does that mean it's true? 

And do you think 'making some sense' has any real bearing on whether or not a claim is actually true?  It made sense that the world was flat.  It made sense that demons caused disease.  It made sense that Zeus caused lightning and thunder.  Why do you think the fact that some lame ass creation story 'makes sense' to you has even the slightest bearing on whether or not it's true?  God bowling makes sense as a cause for thunder.  That doesn't mean it's true. 

I believe in intelligent Creation, not some freak explosion or evolving apes.  So far after 100,000 years on the planet or so creation is still the most plausible to me. 

Oh boy... here comes the scientific illiteracy.  Let me ask you something...  Do you know how your computer works?  I mean top to bottom, inside and out, nuts to bolts?  No?  If no, then how do you explain how it works?  Do you assume that there's little tiny people inside responding to all your inputs (as a completely baseless guess as to how it works, like your spiritual explanation about how and why life is here) or would you find a scientific explanation more satisfying?  Guess what, your notions of creationism pushed onto a group of people well versed in evolutionary theory would be akin to you approaching a computer engineer and claiming that it's more reasonable for you to believe that there are little men inside responding to your every input.  You don't understand evolution.  If you did, you wouldn't say what you said.  In fact, you'd be totally embarrassed by it.  Do you really think we don't have a reasonable, rational response to your 'evolving apes' contention?  Please... 

You would be wrong. I was an atheist for 10 years thank you very much. 

Name a single atheist book you've read. 

... I thought so. 

My path uses reason and faith.

Faith doesn't need reason.  That's why it's called faith.  Because it's not based on reason. 

That doesn't make any sense to me. You don't know what the non-existence of God means and your atheist :? Sometimes being hateful just don't make sense.

You said I was searching for the non-existence of God.  That doesn't make any sense.  Could you search for the non-existence of unicorns?  Where would you actively search to NOT find unicorns?  I know what non-existence of God means.  I just don't understand how you can look for it.  If you meant that I was out to prove God does NOT exist, that's different and completely wrong.  I started with the question of 'is it more likely that God is real or not real' and I looked at both sides extensively.  It's not a close contest. It's a landslide victory for atheists.  There is no Christian God nor any other god that I've ever heard of.  Yes, even the one you've made up is more than likely not real.   

I found God because I was searching for truth, the reason I am here etc..

No.  You went LOOKING for God.  If you LOOK for God, you're going to find God.  Just like in my analogy if I LOOK for rotator cuff problems, I'm going to FIND rotator cuff problems.  You have to LOOK for what's actually there, not what you've been told was there.  You weren't searching for the truth.  You said you were looking for God.  Well, surprise surprise you found him. 

But yet again, thinking there is a 'reason' for you being here biases the search.  You must first ask 'does there need to be a reason why I'm here'.  The answer is no.  If you start with 'What is the reason for me being here?', then you've already formed a conclusion that there is a reason and now you need to find it.  Which makes the god explanation so tempting for you.  Because it's an easy answer for everything, even though this is the 21st century and your thinking is like that of people 2000 years ago.  We have better answers now. 

Evolution offers no such answer, so therefor I revisited the idea of Creation by intelligence, by God, and through much study and soul searching I found Him and it wasn't in any church.

Evolution answers HOW we got here, but you're right... it doesn't answer why.  The answer to why we are here is implied in the process of evolution.  We are here because of the natural progression of evolution on our planet. 

But what makes you think, Junebug, that you... little old you... has discovered the secret to God and the entirety of the worlds 7 billion other people are all getting it wrong?  And all the people that have lived and died in the past hundred thousand years were all wrong too, but not you!  No... not you.  You've figured it all out.  All by yourself through your 'study and soul searching'.  There's no way that you... no, not you... could be wrong about it now, is there?  All the OTHER people are wrong, but not you.   

Yeah... sure.  I'm sure you've got it. 

You know, people who are deluded generally don't know they're deluded.  And they all believe, with vigorous intensity, that they're right.  But guess what?  They're not.  You're not either. 

Of course I would, but what happens when God goes back to His place of being God?

1.  People survive! 
2.  Parents rejoice!
3.  People see God and fall down on their knees to worship his generosity!
4.  Atheists see the evidence first hand and admit their mistakes, embracing the wonder and love that God shows to his children!

I feel like it will get worse because the ones out there that are doing this will not have to bother with a conscience because they would know that God will save whomever they hurt. 

Of course you 'feel' that, because it's too terrible to admit the obvious repulsiveness of God not helping starving children when it only takes a simple thought to do so.  You have to explain it away, and this is just how you do it.  It's that simple.  It's called cognitive dissonance, which means you hold 2 conflicting ideas inside your head at the same time.  The first is that God is good, and the second is that God lets children starve, which is obviously not good.  The only way for you to hold on to the first is to explain away the second with some ridiculous story about how bad it would be if God simply helped everyone out.  It's a lost cause Junebug.  The much more explanatory theory which explains why God does not feed starving children is because God isn't real to begin with.  BTW, that also explains why people get cancer, AIDS, and all sorts of other awful things. 

God does help starving children, you just can't see it because of your disbelief. 

First of all, prove it.  Show me.  Provide a single spec of evidence for this. 

Second... you already said that God helping starving children would be bad.  So are you angry at God for helping the starving children? 



Do you think dying is a bad thing to God.
God isn't real, so I don't know how to determine whether or not dying is a bad thing to something that isn't real.  But if God was real, then yeah, I'd say he'd think dying was bad. 

Do you have any evidence to present as to whether or not God thinks dying is a good or bad thing?  Otherwise, you're just saying something that has no basis in truth. 

Man fears death not God, God is the cure for death, those children aren't dead they are somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. They are with God.

If you really believe that, then what are you waiting for?  Go up and join them.  I don't understand why people like you stay alive if you really think the next world is better than this one?  It's like staying in a sucky job when the best job in the history of the world is offered to you.  It doesn't make sense. 

I'm not afraid of death at all.  I'm afraid of dying in severe pain, but not death itself.  So speak for yourself here. 

Also, please present a single spec of evidence in favor of the claim that all those children are dead somewhere much more glorious than here.  Otherwise, you're just wishing that were true. 

As far as your question I would feed my son, yes I would.  If my son was being starved to death by another son I don't know what I would do.  I would probably feed the hungry one, but I'm afraid of what I might do to the other one.

You're a better person than God then.  The reason you'd feed your son is because you love your son.  Do you really think God loves his children if he lets 30,000 of them die every single day? 

God did help my son off drugs. He helps many people get off drugs.
Uh huh.  And where was God when your son got ON the drugs?  And where was God when all those other people got on the drugs?  You see... that's what you people really don't get.  If he exists, your God knew EXACTLY when your son was going to take drugs, and he let him do it.  He stood right next to him every single time he popped a pill and never stepped in.  Then, later on, you give God all the credit for getting him OFF the drugs, as if God suddenly realized what was going on and put a stop to it.  That's utterly freaking ridiculous.  You praise God for helping your son off drugs, yet you don't condemn God for letting him get on the drugs in the first place! 

I don't recall ever saying I would be angry with God for helping, I am saying I see a bigger picture than you and I understand why He doesn't do more.   

Is it not possible that this is just the excuse you've come up with to explain away the fact that some really awful things happen down here and God doesn't lift a finger to stop them?  That this is the reasoning your mind had to go through in order to maintain your belief that God is good despite some very serious evidence to the contrary? 

Some people get off drugs.  Others die from it.  Some get off drugs only to relapse later on.  If God didn't exist, then its the individual who finds a way to get off the drugs and its also the individual who winds up dead.  That's a reasonable explanation, is it not? 

Do you know what the bigger picture is?  Do you have evidence of it?  Any proof at all? 

God is good and anything that contradicts that is not the truth so far as I am concerned. 
There is a unicorn in my garage and anything that contradicts it is not the truth as far as I'm concerned. 

This is how you sound.  You said you used reason.  Where is it?  I don't see it. 

There is no such thing as a rightful age to achieve such a promise of heaven, I've heard of the age of accountability, which means that you have to be old enough to understand God to be judged, children of any religion I have studied get a free pass right into the pearly gates. 
I assert that the rightful age to achieve the promise of heaven is 16 years, 3 months, 4 days and 13 hours.  Prove me wrong.  With evidence. 

Better yet, prove that there is a heaven.  Prove that there is a God that judges people.  If you've studied so much, show your work.  Show me the proof.  If you can't, do you realize you just might be making the whole thing up, and the idea that God let's every child into heaven is only what you believe because, as you said, God is good and anything that contradicts that is not the truth?   

You know I can not prove this, no more than you can prove it does not.
So it's as likely or unlikely as the notion that we all turn into forks after we die.  You can't prove we don't, I can't prove we do.  Same thing.  It's just your guess. 

Do you believe in evolution? If so where is the proof of that. 

First, evolution isn't something you believe.  It's something you accept or reject based on the evidence.  And yes, I accept evolution because I understand it. 

Evolution is both a fact and a theory.  Species change over time.  This is a fact.  For proof, just look at dog breeding, cattle breeding, plant breeding, or any other form of life breeding you can find.  If you have 1000 cows and you want the biggest and best cows in the future, you mate the biggest cows together and they produce big cows.  Over a few generations of doing it, the cows get bigger and bigger and bigger.  For dogs, every single type of dog came from a wolf.  A chihuahua, a Great Dane, a pit bull, a beagle, all can be traced to wolves through DNA and through history.  That is species change over time.  It's beyond question at this point.  You could do it yourself if you wanted to.  There have been experiments done, extensive experiments on bacteria, guppies, foxes, all with the outcomes showing that you can literally change the species if you selectively breed for certain characteristics.  That is the proof.  It's iron clad.  The way scientists distinguish one species from another is when it no longer can mate with the original species it came from and produce viable offspring.  This is why we have thousands and thousands of species of beetles alone. 

The THEORY of evolution is in how that process works through natural selection.  And all you have to do to understand that theory is to ask yourself... in a snowy woods, which rabbit has a better chance at survival... the all white one, or the gray one.  The white one, obviously because it can hide from predators.  The gray will likely die before it has a chance to pass it's genes to the next rabbit, whereas the white one will survive longer, and pass on his genes to the next rabbit which will also be all white.  That's natural selection. 

Would you like me to link you to over 250,000 peer reviewed articles on the issue? 

It is only a theory without tests and pictures, but you believe that. 

It's so hard to take you seriously when you say 'it's only a theory'.  It betrays a serious lack of understanding about what a scientific theory is versus your idea that it's just some sort of guess.  The tests, the pictures, the data, the fossils, the DNA, all exist.  I can't help it if you don't want to look at it.  I can almost guarantee you, you've gotten all your information about evolution from people who reject it.  And now you reject it for the same reasons as they do.  If you talk to someone who knows what science really says about evolution, you'd probably understand it a lot more. 

There have been lots and lots of people that have seen a glimpse by way of the near death experience.  Not many have come back to say there is nothing there, I just didn't exist anywhere for those 2 minutes I was dead.

Um... there are millions of people who nearly die every year and say there was nothing there.  Its only a few that say they have NDE's.  And guess what?  The NDE's are culturally biased.  By that, I mean that a Hindu person will have a Hindu flavored NDE.  Here is a link that may help you out on this one. 

http://www.near-death.com/hindu.html

Here is a brief quote from it that I think should be mentioned...

"One of the near-death experience truths is that each person integrates their near-death experience into their own pre-existing belief system."

If God wasn't real there would be a lot more starvation in this world!

But... you said God doesn't help the starving children.  Now he does?  Would you please keep your story straight?  Are you saying he picks and chooses which starving children to save?  I don't think that's all that much better, do you?  Would you think me a good parent if I found all 3 of my children starving and I had piles of food in the fridge and I only gave food to one of them? 

This is just a stupid statement on your part.  It's absolutely not in evidence at all.  You're just stating something that's categorically false here. 

I would be happy to see the children fed and if it costs me my life and the world as we know it, so be it.

Good for you.  Now realize that every time an emaciated, starving child takes his last breath, God stands over them with the capability of stopping it from happening... and does NOTHING; while you would do the exact opposite and feed every one that you could.  Now, ask yourself...  If you were standing over your son, and he was dying of hunger, while you had food, and you gave him food, are you going against what your God wants by feeding him?  After all, if God doesn't feed him, does he really want him to be fed?  Why is it good for God NOT to feed him, but good for you to feed him? 

The other possibility is that there is no God standing over that child, and that the reason it dies, is nothing more than the simple fact that, like all living things, it must consume things to survive. 

I don't think I have disapproved of myself here.
But you have disapproved of your God.  You're just scared to admit it. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #207 on: March 28, 2013, 04:02:19 AM »
Like I said Screw, give yourself an example of willing yourself to belief....

Cutdog, have you read anything Screwtape said?  He is not, and has never, said that by "effort of will" a person can come to believe.  If you think he has, I would be grateful if you would quote him.

What he HAS said, is that emotional states can be brought into being by physical action.  A classic and well-dcoumented example is that if you make yourself smile, you will feel happier: the emotion follows the physical expression, when it would normally be expected to be the other way round.

So can you "will yourself" to be happy, just by thinking "I'm happy, I'm happy", as you state (consistently misrepresenting Screw's position)?  Not very likely.  Can you make yourself happy, by smiling?  Yes, you can.  Why not try it?  Find a day when you are sad, and force yourself to keep smiling.  Since personal experience is paramount to you, I know you will be keep to try it.

I look forward to hearing the results when you try what it is that screwtape is actually advocating, rather than the strawman you persist in attributing to him.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #208 on: March 28, 2013, 07:32:23 AM »
Well maybe I did misunderstand him. But he also misunderstood me, because when I made the point that you can't control love or beliefs, he went on disagreement rampage about love and belief arent the same thing, gave me psychology study links, the whole 9 yards. And if you look more carefully, you can see all I was saying the whole time was that love and beliefs cant be controlled by will. Since I didn't get a simple,"yes, you're right", but argument and name calling like idiot, shouldn't I assume he didn't agree. When he didn't agree, I simply said name something he willed. But anyway, that's past us now because I think Screw and the rest of you understand what I was trying to say. Just to make sure though so we can move on: ATTITUDES AND BEHAVIORS ARE CONTROLLABLE, AND SOMETIMES THEY LEAD TO BELIEFS OR REAL LOVE. HOWEVER, WHAT WE END UP TO TRULY LOVE OR TRULY BELIEVE IS OUT OF OUR CONTROL. WE SIMPLY TAKE EXPERIENCE AND FACTS THROUGH OUR LIVES AND OUR BRAIN MAKES A RESPONSE FOR US WHETHER IT BELIEVES OR LOVES. WE DON'T HAVE A SAY. WE CAN HAVE A SAY IF WE WANT TO RESEARCH SOME INFO ON ABORTION, RELIGION, READ A BIBLE, STUDY PSYCHOLOGY, GO ON A DATE WITH A PERSON TO FIND LOVE, ETC. BUT WHEN WE'RE DONE, WE EITHER BELIEVE OR WE DON'T, WE LOVE SOMEONE, OR WE DON'T. THAT'S ALL I EVER MEANT. I POSTED THE TOPIC ABOVE FROM A PHILOSOPHY SITE ON THIS TOPIC. ITS CALLED DOXASTIC VOLUNTARISM, SO READ THAT AND GET A GOOD UNDERSTANDING WHAT I BELIEVE. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BELIEVE THOUGH AND ALOT OF PEOPLE DO AND DON'T. EVEN THAT BELIEF WILL BE OUT OF YOUR CONTROL. BUT READING THE TOPIC WILL NOT.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 08:08:31 AM by Cutdogg »

Offline screwtape

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #209 on: March 28, 2013, 08:07:59 AM »
Consistency theory
http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Consistency_theory

I've discussed this book at length and the concept of consistency in other parts of this forum.
http://www.takebackyourbrain.com/2007/the-psychology-of-persuasion-consistency/
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What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #210 on: March 28, 2013, 08:09:03 AM »
Alright I'll check it out

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #211 on: March 28, 2013, 08:37:36 AM »
Yeah some good stuff, Screw. I see what you were talking about, but that's all about behaviors and attitudes unless I missed something. I was talking about beliefs and love which I think are different. Unless those articles go further to say they aren't any different, I think we were in agreement from beginning, just not understanding what the other was saying. Hey, and here's another good topic that conflicts with Christian beliefs that I just got off your link:

Philosophically, having choice implies the existence of free will and the antithesis of fate, chance and predestination. For a dramatic highlighting of the arbitrariness and cruelty of severely imposed and prescribed choice, see the central image of Sophie's Choice.

But the Bible claims you have to choose your belief and that God gave us free will, then in New Testament Paul says we are all predetermined, or predestined in some translations. But like the article above says, free will is opposite fate or predestination. You can't have both. Now say God is real then he obviously could make it possible for both. But if he did then he would be creating us out of love, just to end up burning us in eternity. So either way you go it doesn't add up!

Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #212 on: March 31, 2013, 06:17:58 AM »


Quote
You're fully well aware that your god does nothing, and will never, ever do anything.  This is why you're making up magical woo to try to justify your god's inaction.  There was none of this "working from the inside out" thing in the bible.  Funny how god's actions changes whenever we become better at recording and examining things...

I have said I see God working all around us, I have said I don't believe in the bible, and yet you still say stuff like this.  Nothing like ARGUING FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUING.   Can't make fun of what I really said so let's twist it around so it sounds silly.  Good job.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #213 on: March 31, 2013, 07:15:25 AM »
I have said I see God working all around us, I have said I don't believe in the bible, and yet you still say stuff like this.  Nothing like ARGUING FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUING.   Can't make fun of what I really said so let's twist it around so it sounds silly.  Good job.

This is true, you did say that you dont believe the bible and that you pieced together several religions to create your own because the gods that were handed to you wouldnt accept you as a lesbian. You were indeed open about it. However, you use the bible in your arguments, probably as a remnant of being brought up around Xtians. But, seeing that you made your own religion, surely you can see that religions are man-made. You are the perfect example of this and admit to it. Why would any of us believe your version of god over anyone elses when you admit to creating yours? That is the point. Also you say you see god's work, but then out of the same mouth say it would be bad for god to do stuff because then people die (this is what you plucked from the bible). Your god is as inconsistent as your story is and even though you make him up you still give him terrible qualities. Why is that?

Also, earlier you answered my question of what questions you made your god up to answer. Your answer was evolution. Evolution is an observable fact. Your god should no longer exist now that you know (I assume you did research from reputable sources since some have directed you to them). If it does still exist, it just shows that you are hanging onto it as some sort of security blanket, which isnt uncommon. But please recognize it for what it is. When you let go of the security blanket (or unlock your shackles), youre able to be free. I urge you to be free.  ;D

Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #214 on: March 31, 2013, 07:45:27 AM »
Quote
Suppose you'd cut him off - and he'd taken to mugging people to get money to buy pills for himself.  Would you have continued with the "doing nothing" approach?   Washed your hands of him and kept your fingers crossed that someone else would sort him out?  Or would you, as a loving parent, have not just "cut him off", period, but done everything within your power to help him?

I was never worried that he wouldn't find his way. I know him.  I knew a little tough love was what he needed.  I also knew if I kept supporting him I was supporting his habit.  If God helps us now He would be doing the same thing.  Enabling us to continue to tolerate Greed.  Tough love only works in parallel to sweet love.  What I am saying here is all the sweet love made the tough love work.  Children that are cut off and find their way into desperation, do not know much sweet love.  This is between a mother and son, and his behavior only hurt us, not the whole world.  Thank God!  I only have one child, God has 7 billion and he loves us all.  Since God is intelligent enough to create the planets and man, I will have faith in His decision making.

Sorry, I can't see the answer to my question in your response there - can you point it out for me please?


Quote
If your son was starving to death, would you feed him, or would you let him die?  God lets them die.

Do you think dying is a bad thing to God.  Man fears death not God, God is the cure for death, those children aren't dead they are somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. They are with God.

Cool.  So we shouldn't feed the starving, because by doing so we are keeping them from god.

To feed the starving is either a Good Act, or an Evil Act.  You now seem to be saying that your god does not feed them because it gets them to a better place, and this is therefore a Good Act.  So why is it a Good Act when WE feed them, and a Bad Act if we do not?

When your son was hooked on drugs, it was a path that would lead him swiftly to "somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. (He would be) with God".

So why did you try to thwart your god's plan by getting him OFF the drugs?  Why did you take that evil action, denying him entry to a glorious place, free from the world of greed and united with god?

To reiterate my question: why is a Good Act for your god, an Evil Act when we try to address the same issues, and vice versa?

Whether or not my son decided to turn to violence was his decision to make.  If I could've made it for him I would, but as an adult he was responsible for his actions not me.  I taught him what he needed to know, after that it's on him. 

It definitely was not God's plan for my son to get on drugs. I don't think God's plan is about the individual, but the human race as a WHOLE.

I have already said several times before here that I don't think God doing something is a bad thing, I'm saying that the human race as a WHOLE would be better off if we took care of this problem by being more courageous and putting an end to the politics that lead to poverty by coming together and peacefully protesting the status quo. I'm sorry I can not remember the gentleman's name, but I like what he said. The human race is about to evolve, our environment requires it, we either become like the locusts leaving destruction, or become more like the honey bee, living in unison with the planet and each other.  It is up to us, but we need more honey bees, right now the locusts are running the show.  This was a program on either Free Speech TV or LINK TV, both are a great source for true media.  It was on Link that I was introduced to Dr. Richard Wolfe, he has a website if you want to check it out, he is an economist with a cure for capitalism.  I don't know his religion, he didn't talk about that, but his ideas make a lot of sense. Here's the address http://rdwolff.com/.

Your anger towards God is completely understandable. My wish for you is freedom from that anger, it's not good for your health.  I mean that in the most sincerest way.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #215 on: March 31, 2013, 08:17:26 AM »
I have said I see God working all around us, I have said I don't believe in the bible, and yet you still say stuff like this.  Nothing like ARGUING FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUING.   Can't make fun of what I really said so let's twist it around so it sounds silly.  Good job.

This is true, you did say that you dont believe the bible and that you pieced together several religions to create your own because the gods that were handed to you wouldnt accept you as a lesbian. You were indeed open about it. However, you use the bible in your arguments, probably as a remnant of being brought up around Xtians. But, seeing that you made your own religion, surely you can see that religions are man-made. You are the perfect example of this and admit to it. Why would any of us believe your version of god over anyone elses when you admit to creating yours? That is the point. Also you say you see god's work, but then out of the same mouth say it would be bad for god to do stuff because then people die (this is what you plucked from the bible). Your god is as inconsistent as your story is and even though you make him up you still give him terrible qualities. Why is that?

Also, earlier you answered my question of what questions you made your god up to answer. Your answer was evolution. Evolution is an observable fact. Your god should no longer exist now that you know (I assume you did research from reputable sources since some have directed you to them). If it does still exist, it just shows that you are hanging onto it as some sort of security blanket, which isnt uncommon. But please recognize it for what it is. When you let go of the security blanket (or unlock your shackles), youre able to be free. I urge you to be free.  ;D

I do not remember being asked what questions I made God up to answer.  I have said that evolution but more so that a Big Bang does not satisfy my curiosity as to our origins.  That I believe such Amazingness could only be achieved with an intelligent source.  All evolution proves is that the ancestors had a lot to learn about God.


I didn't create God, God created me.  God's breath is the spirit that gives us life.  Without a spirit we are not alive, we are just the elements that compose our bodies.  Have you ever stood by a person's side as they release their spirit?  I have more times than I wish I had to, but you can feel their spirit briefly right after their body stops.  It is truly a spiritual experience if you let it be.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #216 on: March 31, 2013, 08:40:02 AM »
You admitted to piecing together your god from several versions of other peoples versions of gods, thus you created your god.

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #217 on: March 31, 2013, 12:07:20 PM »


Quote
You're fully well aware that your god does nothing, and will never, ever do anything.  This is why you're making up magical woo to try to justify your god's inaction.  There was none of this "working from the inside out" thing in the bible.  Funny how god's actions changes whenever we become better at recording and examining things...

I have said I see God working all around us, I have said I don't believe in the bible, and yet you still say stuff like this.  Nothing like ARGUING FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUING.   Can't make fun of what I really said so let's twist it around so it sounds silly.  Good job.

I should note that what I said earlier was before I caught on to the whole "making up my own religion" thing.

Doesn't change the fact that this god does nothing, or that we're dealing with a lot of magical woo to make this god sound more profound than he (I assume this god is male) really is.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #218 on: March 31, 2013, 10:56:38 PM »
Whether or not my son decided to turn to violence was his decision to make.  If I could've made it for him I would, but as an adult he was responsible for his actions not me.  I taught him what he needed to know, after that it's on him. 

And where does God fit into that?  If it's your sons decision whether or not to turn to violence, then it's also his decision to get off drugs.  There is no need to explain it with God.  You've satisfactorily eliminated the need for any sort of supernatural explanation.   

It definitely was not God's plan for my son to get on drugs.
How can you say it wasn't God's plan for your son to get on drugs?  How do you know that? 

I don't think God's plan is about the individual, but the human race as a WHOLE.
So childhood starvation, drug addition, AIDS fit into God's plan as a whole?  Gotcha. 

But what do you mean God's plan is about the human race as a whole?  What would be beneficial to the entire human race?  Maybe making water more plentiful?  Food more plentiful?  Abolishing cancer?  Getting rid of AIDS?  None of those seem to be on top of his priority list.  So how can you sit there with a straight face and say that God's plan is for the human race as a whole?  You're just wrong about it.  It's not possible for you to be right here.  Unless God isn't good; in which case, I guess it's possible. 

Bottom line.  God's plan includes awful, terrible things, and you will have us believe that those things are good for us as a whole.  I think that's disgusting. 

I have already said several times before here that I don't think God doing something is a bad thing
So by definition, if God acts or does not act, it's a good thing?  Is that what you will have us believe? 

I'm saying that the human race as a WHOLE would be better off if we took care of this problem by being more courageous and putting an end to the politics that lead to poverty by coming together and peacefully protesting the status quo.
Nobody is going to disagree with you here Junebug.  We want problems fixed as well.  For the atheist, the fate of everyone lies solely on the people of this world, but the problem is that for you, there is a second option.  And that second option has the power to solve these problems with the snap of his fingers.  So why is it so difficult for you to understand that if this second option that you believe exists, does nothing at all to help the problems, then that might be a bit of an indication that you're making the whole thing up and there really is no second option?  You keep going back to the people, its our problem, we need to fix it, etc, etc, but you never acknowledge the second option in that situation. 

What I want to know is... why don't you fucking HATE your God?  I don't think your God is real, so I don't have to hate him, but I do not understand, not for the life of me, why you would ever worship a god that presides over this world and allows the shit to take place here in front of him.  I firmly believe that if you were not brainwashed to think that God is good, you would judge his actions the same way as you would judge every other action and you'd see where we are coming from here.     

The human race is about to evolve, our environment requires it, we either become like the locusts leaving destruction, or become more like the honey bee, living in unison with the planet and each other.

Every living thing, including the human race, has been evolving for a lot longer than you can possibly fathom.  Our environment is changing. It's always been changing, but it's a slow process, just like evolution.  That's what pressures things to evolve.  As the environment changes, some random mutations expressed in the DNA of the living thing allows a better than average chance at survival and an increased likelihood to reach reproduction age. 

What do you think is the solution to this problem?  Putting our hands together, bowing our heads in unison and telepathically asking a fictional deity to work things out for us?  Or rolling up our sleeves, casting off the ancient superstitions of our ancestors, and making things better for ourselves?  It seems you think the second one is the better option.  I agree.  So again, where is there room for God?  There isn't any.  Because there is no God.  You've made it up.   

It is up to us, but we need more honey bees, right now the locusts are running the show. 
You make it all out to be greed, but there is so much more to it than that. 

But why are the locusts running the show?  Where is God?  Why isn't God helping?  Maybe because God isn't real? 

Your anger towards God is completely understandable. My wish for you is freedom from that anger, it's not good for your health.  I mean that in the most sincerest way.

We aren't angry at God because we don't believe God exists, Junebug.  We just can't understand why you aren't angry.  You seem to believe in him, so what is your problem?  God stood by as each and every pill went into your son's mouth, didn't he?  He stands by as thousands and thousands of children die in agony every day.  You've said that you've watched people die.  Have you ever watched a child starve to death?  Ever seen the mother of a child who starved to death?  You'd step in to stop it if you could, right?  You worship a being that has the power to do exactly that, but does nothing at all.  NOTHING.  What, do you picture God crying or something when you think about it?  As if that makes it better?

Personally, I get angry at the stupidity of the whole thing.  It's like your (religious people in general) brain is not working properly.  You don't think intelligently.  You don't look at the repercussions of your beliefs, and the logical contradictions you face in it.  You just like feeling that it's there and that's what guides you first and foremost.  I don't respect that.  Not a single bit.  It's the entire problem with religion in the world.   You want to give God credit for the good stuff, but no blame for the bad.  You can't have it that way.  It just doesn't work out.       

BTW, with regard to your post about how evolution and the big bang theory don't satisfy your curiosity about our origins, since when does the truth give a crap about whether or not it meets with your approval? 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #219 on: April 01, 2013, 01:20:20 AM »
Your anger towards God is completely understandable. My wish for you is freedom from that anger, it's not good for your health.  I mean that in the most sincerest way.

I'm not angry at anyone, little Junebug - least of all something that doesn't exist.  I'm not angry at the Easter Bunny either, and I have just as much evidence that THAT little fantasy exists.  What I'm trying to establish is what you actually believe, because it seems to change with every question you answer.

In response to us asking why your god didn't feed the starving, when he has the means and the ability, YOU SAID:

Do you think dying is a bad thing to God.  Man fears death not God, God is the cure for death, those children aren't dead they are somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. They are with God.

So you are on record as saying that death is a GOOD thing, because - in your view - it transports people faster to be with god.

So given that is the case, why should I feed the starving?  Why should I help the next person in want that I see?  If it gets them faster to god - to somewhere "much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED" - then     why should I be so evil as to feed them?  Better surely to let them die and speed them to the paradise you are sure exists?

You also didn't actually answer my question about your son.  You waffled around the issue, but didn't actually answer the direct question I asked.  You picked up on one aspect, to avoid answering the main point - so I've removed the diversion, so it is clear exactly what I am asking.

When your son was hooked on drugs, it was a path that would lead him swiftly to "somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. (He would be) with God".  So....(w)hy did you take that evil action, denying him entry to a glorious place, free from the world of greed and united with god?

It's okay for god not to help - you say - because it gets people to him sooner.  If you honestly and truly believe that, WHY do you try to help them live a little longer in this terrible world?  Why not just cut ALL aid now, and speed them to heaven?  Think how happy they will be!  How can we dare deny them that?  How can we even keep them from it for a day?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #220 on: April 01, 2013, 05:38:08 AM »
Here is a quick comedic clip of what life would be like if christians really did believe in heaven.

Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline greatful

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #221 on: April 02, 2013, 04:52:11 PM »
What I have noticed on this site, forum, or whatever, is most of the time the pros and the cons are not speaking the same language, even though we both speaking English. Usually atheist think in terms of science and believer think in terms of the Bible. What I would like to continue here is an honest discussion. So what I'm doing is changing this discussion, that has pretty much died out along with most on this site, into not overly complicating this stuff as we often do.
If some one isn't from America but is in America they would be what? Alien. If a being is on the earth but isn't from the earth they are called what? Alien. So if God made the earth but isn't from the earth and appears here science would call him an alien or even better an extraterrestrial. Same with the angels and other heavenly beings. Now if God had a spacecraft, so to speak, like it is described in Ezekiel 1:4-28 and other places in the Bible, science would call the craft an UFO and God an alien/ extraterrestrial.
Isaiah 55:8-9 KJV
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD
9.For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned .
Romans 11:33 KJV
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
1 Corinthians 1:27 KJV
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

The Bible describes things different than science. The Bible calls these creatures cherubims, angels, heavenly bodies and many additional ways. Science would call God, His angels, and other heavenly beings, extraterrestrial. Would they speak as we do? Well, they probably can but being extra they would probably communicate other ways like telepathically(prayer). With out time would science fully understand these aliens and their ways? Would these extraterrestrial be 100% visible all the time? Probably not. Would the supreme of all these extraterrestrial beings even have a form unless need be. This is a description in the most generic form but just a start. Further evidence of this way of description is the three books of Enoch. This book was written, translated, whatever about 300 B.C. Though it is from much earlier and is probably the earliest text. Enoch was the great grandson of Adam and the great grandfather of Noah. Before God just took him to heaven without dying because he already spent so much time with God anyway. He was taken on a trip to heaven/ outerspace and told secrets of the Universe. Enoch told his son (Methuselah) what happen up there as Methuselah wrote it down. Also in this book besides UFOs and extraterrestrial is that the earth is round and it revolves around the sun. It wasn't discovered that this was so by science until what 1400s. The pharisees would not allow just anybody to read this book. They kept it from the people probably because they thought they would not be able to handle it.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #222 on: April 02, 2013, 05:48:21 PM »
Welcome greatful,

Youll find the problem with your post is that you assume the existence of god, whether as diety or alien is irrellevent if you cant support its existence. You can call it superman if you like, it doesnt matter.

Offline greatful

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #223 on: April 02, 2013, 11:46:57 PM »
I can support it my friend. Here is only a small part of support. The Book of Enoch is an ancient Hebrew text that describes the round Earth revolving around the Sun. It also maps out the calendar and makes up for leap year, the layers of outer space, astronomical secrets, and the phases of the moon. It was part of the Old Testament. It was found also in the Dead Sea Scrolls, which of course matched. It is easily found by google search Book of Enoch PDF. It was quoted from in the New Testament, in Jude. But there is a whole lot more in it then just these things. The point was that this book was translated around 200 B.C. with this type of scientific info. earlier than the 1400s A.D. Which it was supposed to have been info. from God himself and other celestial beings (angels) which was verified later by science to be the truth of how our universe works. It speaks of God's craft (space craft so to speak) even more so than the Book of Ezekiel 1:4-28. Also from what I'm watching on TV, The History channels, Nat. Geo., The Science channel, etc... science and the Bible are coming together. Science has now been proving the possibilities of the Bible. Example, The God Gene, The Shroud of Turin, What the force is that holds the nucleus of the Atom together(which is in the Bible), How the Red Sea was parted,the almost discovery of Noah's Ark. The Book of Enoch will blow your mind.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #224 on: April 03, 2013, 03:58:12 AM »
Book of Enoch.  Cool.  Its scientifically accurate for sure.

"...the great luminary, named the Sun, and his circumference is like the circumference of the heaven, and he is quite filled with illuminating and heating fire. The chariot on which he ascends, the wind drives..."

The moon rides on a wind-driven chariot as welll.  Oh, and the moon gives her own light.

"And the sun and the stars bring in all the years exactly, so that they do not advance or delay their position by a single day unto eternity; but complete the years with perfect justice in 364 days."

You know, I thought that this year felt exceptionally long.  Those pesky aliens!

I was also impressed about the doors that winds come through - didya know that depending on which door is opened, the winds will be good or bad?

"And from thence I went towards the north to the ends of the earth, and there I saw a great and glorious device at the ends of the whole earth. And here I saw three portals of heaven open in the heaven: through each of them proceed north winds: when they blow there is cold, hail, frost, snow, dew, and rain. And out of one portal they blow for good: but when they blow through the other two portals, it is with violence and affliction on the earth, and they blow with violence."

Is it aliens that decide which door to open?

Or is the book of Enoch, perhaps, just the ramblings of yet another ancient goat-herder, who had a good eye to observe things, and filled in the gaps with woolly ramblings and mystical mumbo-jumbo that - two thousand years later - people who want to believe in aliens take as indisputable evidence?  No matter how many twisted apologetics they require?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #225 on: April 03, 2013, 02:14:08 PM »
There's just something about "god is a space alien" that strikes me as even goofier than the conventional interpretation of the bible.  I'm not sure what it is... something about replacing nonsense with "updated" nonsense, I guess.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #226 on: April 03, 2013, 02:25:41 PM »
There's just something about "god is a space alien" that strikes me as even goofier than the conventional interpretation of the bible.  I'm not sure what it is... something about replacing nonsense with "updated" nonsense, I guess.

On the surface, I agree.  However, harken back to the great debate between KCrady and Fran, wherein Fran claimed the resurrection was real and KCrady Anfauglir said it was more likely jesus H was a space alien.  One reason being life exists on earth, therefore could ostensibly exist outside earth.

At least an alien isn't "outside time and space" or any of the other crazy things theists have to make up to explain why god won't show himself.

However, greatful does come off as... nuts.



edit - corrected.  Anfauglir, not kcrady.  Though, kcrady does mention aliens a lot.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 09:02:56 AM by screwtape »
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Offline greatful

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #227 on: April 03, 2013, 03:22:17 PM »
Yes, it makes it even more intriguing that a goat herder's description of his experiences were proved possible by science and also tested at a smaller scale. So not just by theory but by experimental demonstrations.The problem is that science lacks the ability to have a space craft that can perform this experiment at full scale but is getting there. It was confirmed possible by Einstein's theory of time dilation. If there would have been a scientist around, Enoch could have got him or her to write the book scientifically. But then we wouldn't be able to understand it ourselves on an individual basis because it would have been like reading a book based on physics and never had taken one physics class. Resulting only in scientist being able to enjoy the book. The Enoch calendar is based on the spring and autumn equinoxes and the summer and winter solstices, also tied to astronomy. It had different purposes than the World calendar(Gregorian calendar). It's purposes are to keep aligned the seasons, Hebrew holidays, days of the week landing constantly, and the prediction of the life of Jesus Christ and it landed it perfect. By the way it did compensate for the leap year just at different times according to the cycles of the moon which determine it. "An unexpected feature of the 364-day year is that it results in an average year length even more accurate than our modern Gregorian calendar. The actual length of the year is now 365.2422 days. The Gregorian calendar averages 365.2425 days which is much closer than the former Julian calendar which averaged 365.25 days. But if 52 weeks are intercalated every 293 years into the calendar of Enoch, then it averages 365.2423 days which is extremely accurate. It is very surprising that such accuracy can be obtained by intercalating an entire week at a time over so short a time period. In contrast, our Gregorian calendar intercalates one day at a time over a 400-year cycle and achieves less long-term accuracy. A 364-day calendar based on an intercalated Enoch calendar has been proposed." Pratt, John P., "Mapping Time," American Mathematical Monthly (Jan. 2000), pp. 92-99, (section 6). They still have to make adjustments to the modern calendar to line back up to the equinoxes and solstice, "On time scales of thousands of years, the Gregorian calendar falls behind the astronomical seasons because the slowing down of the Earth's rotation makes each day slightly longer over time." Wikipedia. Now, how can a caveman with some goats be smart enough or observant enough to be more accurate than modern scientist without some extraterrestrial/ celestial(angels) help, input? I have to give it to old Enoch he did a good job describing it with his limited experiences and without ever seeing a machine, other than a chariot and a camp fire, let alone a jet aircraft. A caveman really knew by himself enough to take in consideration that the earth's rotation slows?

Offline Tonus

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #228 on: April 03, 2013, 03:38:06 PM »
Paragraphs, please.  I simply cannot read through those great big blocks of text, and so I have no idea if you're writing anything interesting enough to respond to.

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #229 on: April 03, 2013, 03:43:07 PM »
The Book of Enoch is an ancient Hebrew text that describes the round Earth revolving around the Sun. 

I have to question whether or not you've read the book of Enoch yourself, or just been fed this nonsense by other Christians who really want evidence but can't find any.  BTW, the Book of Enoch is only canonical in the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church and Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church per wikipedia.  Are you a member of those?

Chapter 18 verse 2 from the book of Enoch...

"I surveyed the stone which supports the corners of the earth."

How many corners does a round earth have? 

Chapter 18 verse 6

"I saw the winds which turn the sky, which cause the orb of the sun and of all the stars to set; and over the earth I saw the winds which support the clouds."

The winds don't turn the sky, nor do they cause the sun and all the stars to set.  The wind also doesn't support the clouds, it simply moves them around.  They wouldn't fall if the wind was gone. 

Chapter 71  speaking about the sun...
"And thus it goes in and out, neither slackening nor resting; but running on in its chariot by day and by night. It shines with a seventh portion of light from the moon; (78) but the dimensions of both are equal"

A chariot pulls the sun?  The sun is the same size as the moon?  And gives off 1/7th of it's light? It's actually 400,000 times more bright.   See this website... http://outreach.atnf.csiro.au/education/senior/astrophysics/photometry_magnitude.html

How do you get to flat out ignore this stuff and still claim that the Book of Enoch is special?  Why do you think you can do that?  This is factual evidence that the author was NOT visited by an angel with supernatural knowledge over his own.  It's iron clad evidence.  Why can't you see that?  What goes through your mind when you read this absolute proof that you're position about the Book of Enoch is wrong? 

Also from what I'm watching on TV, The History channels, Nat. Geo., The Science channel, etc... science and the Bible are coming together.

Ratings make TV shows go.  Pandering to Christians in a Christian country is a good move for those channels, regardless of whether or not there is any actual truth to what they're saying.  Science is NOT coming together with the bible.  The book of Enoch isn't even in the bible. 

Science has now been proving the possibilities of the Bible. Example, The God Gene, The Shroud of Turin, What the force is that holds the nucleus of the Atom together(which is in the Bible), How the Red Sea was parted,the almost discovery of Noah's Ark. The Book of Enoch will blow your mind.
 

Please dude.  The Book of Enoch is shit.  Shroud of Turin was debunked years ago.  The new information came from Catholic scientists who have everything to gain by 'proving' the shroud is older than it is, and the dates they put it at were... get this... within a 700 year range.  The carbon dating done on the shroud by 3 DIFFERENT places put the shroud in the late 1200's early 1300's.  Within 100 years accuracy.  The Red Sea parting, and 'almost' finding Noah's Ark?  Good lord.  They don't help your case at all. 

I'm with Anfauglir.  It's the ramblings of ancient goat herders who knew very little. 

And if you think some astrological observations were only possible back then if they had angels telling them stuff, why don't you ask the Mayans, who's calendar was far more accurate and they did it in 5th century BCE.  The book of Enoch, most experts agree, was written (earliest) around 300 BC again per wikipedia. 

It's unbelievable that people fall for this stuff.  But you won't admit it will you.  I've known too many Christians to think that facts and evidence will sway your thinking. 

BTW, it's 'grateful' not 'greatful'. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline greatful

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #230 on: April 03, 2013, 04:21:25 PM »
I don't understand physics, But I don't call it nonsense. My lack of understanding doesn't make it not true. But if I research it then it will become more real to me. If I learn it will become even more so.
1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
I'm not really calling God a space alien. I'm just trying to put it into different terms. Bring another way to think about it other than the traditional church ways. God (YHWH)(I AM) knew people would have a problem with him not showing himself, so he did. The last straw for the Pharisees was that Jesus called himself I AM. They couldn't comprehend it so they killed him.
John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad .57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was , I am.
John 14:9 KJV
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seenthe Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
So, God being the good leader and understanding God he is, He came here and put himself in skin, lead by example and from the front. I agree what kind of God would not come here and show himself? Well, he has visited many time and to many people in the Bible. If you want the examples let me know there is just a lot of them.

Offline shnozzola

Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #231 on: April 03, 2013, 04:47:39 PM »
The human race is about to evolve, our environment requires it, we either become like the locusts leaving destruction, or become more like the honey bee, living in unison with the planet and each other.  It is up to us, but we need more honey bees, right now the locusts are running the show. 

I don't mean to derail, but with the references to honey bees and evolution together, I had to say something.  Honey bees are in real trouble.  This past winter coming into the almond pollination in Calif. has seen the worst yet for colony collapse.  The honey bees  [whether it's  neonicitinoid pesticides like most believe, or mites, or changing landscapes (less flowers), or the stress of commercial transportation - really, people are grasping at straws, it is almost certainly these nicotine insecticides]  are not evolving too well, although solitary bees do more work than given credit for.  Good article here:

http://www.npr.org/2013/04/02/176037645/the-buzz-on-bees-why-many-colonies-are-collapsing

- sorry, carry on.
“I wanna go ice fishing on Europa, and see if something swims up to the camera lens and licks it.”- Neil deGrasse Tyson