Author Topic: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself  (Read 25404 times)

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #174 on: March 27, 2013, 06:20:15 AM »
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Suppose you'd cut him off - and he'd taken to mugging people to get money to buy pills for himself.  Would you have continued with the "doing nothing" approach?   Washed your hands of him and kept your fingers crossed that someone else would sort him out?  Or would you, as a loving parent, have not just "cut him off", period, but done everything within your power to help him?

I was never worried that he wouldn't find his way. I know him.  I knew a little tough love was what he needed.  I also knew if I kept supporting him I was supporting his habit.  If God helps us now He would be doing the same thing.  Enabling us to continue to tolerate Greed.  Tough love only works in parallel to sweet love.  What I am saying here is all the sweet love made the tough love work.  Children that are cut off and find their way into desperation, do not know much sweet love.  This is between a mother and son, and his behavior only hurt us, not the whole world.  Thank God!  I only have one child, God has 7 billion and he loves us all.  Since God is intelligent enough to create the planets and man, I will have faith in His decision making.

Sorry, I can't see the answer to my question in your response there - can you point it out for me please?


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If your son was starving to death, would you feed him, or would you let him die?  God lets them die.

Do you think dying is a bad thing to God.  Man fears death not God, God is the cure for death, those children aren't dead they are somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. They are with God.

Cool.  So we shouldn't feed the starving, because by doing so we are keeping them from god.

To feed the starving is either a Good Act, or an Evil Act.  You now seem to be saying that your god does not feed them because it gets them to a better place, and this is therefore a Good Act.  So why is it a Good Act when WE feed them, and a Bad Act if we do not?

When your son was hooked on drugs, it was a path that would lead him swiftly to "somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. (He would be) with God".

So why did you try to thwart your god's plan by getting him OFF the drugs?  Why did you take that evil action, denying him entry to a glorious place, free from the world of greed and united with god?

To reiterate my question: why is a Good Act for your god, an Evil Act when we try to address the same issues, and vice versa?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online Dante

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #175 on: March 27, 2013, 07:00:36 AM »
We
I felt there was something missing in my life, but no I wasn't worried about my soul. I was atheist remember?  It's hard to explain but I will try.  It was like most of you here I couldn't serve a God that wouldn't Love me the way I am, and up until then that is all I heard, your an abomination.

Ummm....we don't serve any gods because they're not real. They have no capacity to love, or hate, or anything else for that matter. They're imaginary constructs of primitive minds.

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How did he speak to you? Big booming god voice? Nope, I bet you heard it in your head, no? See, many theists claim this, but the voices are always inside their head. But, there are many thoughts in many people's heads. And, we find it odd that we atheists never hear those voices claiming to be a god, telling us we're so loved by his omnimax. I wonder why that is.

You can not here something you don't believe in.

Yet you keep claiming you were atheist. I wonder if you know what an atheist is. As someone already said earlier, your answers are all over the place, and lack the consistency of rational thought. You were an atheist, but you found god and he spoke to you. But we can't hear him because we dont believe. So did you believe, or did you not? If not, then how did you hear him? And why cant we? If so, then you were a believer, just an angry one, full of despair.

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been 12 years since then, and God has revealed so much to me I feel obligated to share.

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Like what? What has been revealed?

There is a lot but the most important thing revealed to me is that the Christians got it bad wrong.
[/quote]

But you, being of pure heart, have it all right? Got it. You're a special little snowflake, a messiah.

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I know Christians would just laugh at me where as I thought I might get some support from here.  Not support on the existence of God but maybe a little credit for doing things my own way.

If you're doing things your own way, what credit is your god? You will get support, such that it is, here for doing things your own way. And that's all you've ever done is do things your own way. There are no gods necessary.

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Yes God gets the credit , I would still be that hopeless teenager that just wished her life away had God not saved me.  See that's what I keep trying to share with you is God's love, I don't want it all to myself, I have no claim on God, I am His.

You can keep it, because it's all in your head. You base all your spritual worldview on how you wish it to be, commonly referred here as SPAG; Self Projection As God. Your god fulfills exactly your hopes, dreams, visions of justice and love. I'll wager your god doesn't do anything you disagree with. But hey, don't feel too bad about it. The vast majority theists do it, and at least your version doesn't condemn everyone to eternal torture.

edit: to fix quotes as best I could.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 07:14:09 AM by Dante »
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #176 on: March 27, 2013, 07:41:42 AM »
I would still be that hopeless teenager that just wished her life away had God not saved me.  See that's what I keep trying to share with you is God's love,
All very interesting but, two points:

1. I'm not a "hopeless teenager that just wished her life away[1]" so why do you "keep trying to share with you [...] God's love,"?

2. What do you think that Hindus and Buddhists and primitive tribal animists do if they grow up as " a hopeless teenager that just wished [their] life away."?



 1. and as far as I can see, no one else here is either
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline screwtape

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #177 on: March 27, 2013, 09:35:15 AM »
It's superstition to you not to me.

Whether it is superstion is not a matter of taste or perspective.  It either is, or it is not.  And in this case, it is.

I understand science just fine, that is why evolution does not make sense to me.  If we came from apes the apes would be gone, they are humans now.

Junebug, that is not how it works.  You most definitley do not understand science, specifically evolution, just fine.  In fact, you appear to not understand it at all.  I know this because I actually studied science.  I recommend that you do some better research from a legitimate science source.  I cannot help you.  I have neither the time nor the energy and I doubt you would believe anything I said anyway.  That last part is a shame. 

I'll help you out. 
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/cat03.html  Read the bottom of the link
http://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask150
http://www.evolutionfaq.com/faq/if-man-evolved-ape-then-why-are-there-still-apes

If you want to believe in god, I guess that is your prerogative.  But you should find a different reason to justify your belief.  Because the reason you give for it is completely wrong.  My point here is not that evolution is correct.  It is, but that is not my point.  My point is what you think is evolution, is not evolution.  Your description of evolution is as far away from evolution as can be.  It would be like me describing jesus H as a mutant with superpowers who was part of the Justice League with Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and Aquaman.  That is how wrong you are.

It would be one thing if you rejected evolution for what it actually said.  But that is not what you are doing.  You are rejecting crazy ideas (rightly so) and calling them evolution, which they are not. 

How could an explosion know the earth would need an atmosphere to protect it from radiation off the sun?

This is also not evolution.  This, I presume, is your take on Big Bang, which is an entirelt different theory in an entirely different branch of science.  And it is also wrong on every level.  There was no "explosion".  And the "explosion" does not know things. There was no goal or requirement for the universe to produce us.  We exist on earth because we could not exist on venus, or mars, or in the vast majority of the universe.  We exist on earth because the conditions allow us to exist.  We are a product of the environment.  And the conditions of the environment are a happy coincidence.

Your thinking implies we were a given and everything is here for us.  That is like a carbuncle on the hull of a ship thinking the ship was built for it to attach to.  Or a puddle thinking the hole it which it sits was tailor made for itself.
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/70827-this-is-rather-as-if-you-imagine-a-puddle-waking

I can't believe people out there believe that stuff.

That is because you have been poorly educated.  Sorry.  It's true.

The difference between you and I is that I don't have to insult you to share my beliefs

You don't have to be insulted when someone points out you are wrong on the facts.  I think you should be grateful.  If some thing I believe is wrong - that is, if it conflicts with reality - then I want to know.  I only want to believe what is true.  I would bre grateful if someone pointed out my error.

As far as the first question, do we not put murderers to death in this country.

You are making god very human.  You are assigning all of our human flaws and thinking to an allegedly omnipotent, omniscient being.  If you had magical power to do anything do you think you could find a way to help the people who need it without the results being "grim and dark"?

A god who supposedly loves everyone and can do literally anything does not need to resort to human style justice.

When a cop saves a man by shooting the other man, there is a person saved with grim consequences.  One man dies so another may live.  You can't have your cake and eat it too,

I could have my cake and eat it if I was omnipotent. 

We are not talking about a cop of limited mortal means.  We are talking about the OMNIPOTENT creator of ALL BEING.  His resources are limitless.  If god were the cop, he would not have to shoot anyone to save anyone.  He would just need to will it to be. 

You can't have God save the children without suffering the consequences.

You do not seem to be able to grasp the idea of god and power.  You keep thinking god is just some invisible guy.

Please don't scratch out my eyes.  ;D

I don't know why I would scratch out your eyes.  Being completely ignorant about science does not warrant being blinded. 

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Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #178 on: March 27, 2013, 09:39:17 AM »
To Jaimehlers: the example you listed is not what Im talkin about. So I really wish people would stop skim reading. You said your emotions were altered because of choice. Duhhh, who's isn't on a daily basis. Terrible example. I'm asking someone to list a time in their life where they willed or controlled what they believed by simply trying hard to believe it. Same with loved someone or thing by will power. Not emotions controlled, but real love for something or belief in something. That's it!!! For example: can I will myself to believe in the tooth fairy by trying real hard. Reason may be so I can tell my kids about her, without lying to them. I want to believe in her with all my heart. And example of Willing myself to love is: I've fell out of love with my wife, lets say, but I don't want to ruin the family so is there a way I can will myself to be head over hills in love with her so I don't leave her for another woman?? And that means without changing a thing about her. Only then would I know I willed myself and controlled love. That and only that is where I'd like an example from someone to know if its only me that can't do this. And to Parking Place that posted that Im a knowitall: I don't know it all, that's why Im asking you to give me an example because I have this issue Im trying to find out about to see if Im only one that its impossible to control my love and belief. I want to know because Its one of my biggest rebuttals to the whole Christian concept of being punished for something out of your control. I simply use memory that you say isn't valid. The same way you use memory of what people taught you in school that Earth is flat, or what size shoe you wear. Imagine how ridiculous I sound arguing with you about your hair color and I've never seen you. Didnt you get that hair color claim from memory? That's how stupid you sound arguing with me that I can't think of any time in my life that I willed love or beliefs into existence. I simply learned beliefs through experience( that you say is invalid), and learned love because It grew inside me with no control of my own. That's what happened to me, now tell me how you get those things by will power so I can know its not just me!!!
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 09:57:48 AM by Cutdogg »

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #179 on: March 27, 2013, 09:54:35 AM »
I thought Christians were bad about giving concrete examples, at least they try. Not one atheist on here can list a time when they altered love or a belief by willpower and then they claim it can be done and Im stupid. I thought they used reason, logic, and examples to back up claims. I at least attempted to give you mine, I would appreciate same courtesy to just get one. If that's too much to ask then just admit you can't come up with one and quit acting like Christians who evade the topic

Offline Jag

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #180 on: March 27, 2013, 09:56:28 AM »
Cutdogg, you've asked for an example of willing oneself to love, and appear to be ... displeased with the responses. I'm going to try to illustrate the concept that (I think) is being conveyed. Best advice I ever got, by the way...

I attended a party for some family friends who had been married for 50 years. I asked the husband, who I've known for literally my entire life, how they had managed to stay happily married for so long. He laughed and said that "happily married for 50 years" wasn't entirely accurate, that they had had plenty of difficult years. The secret, according to this wise fellow, is to "never fall out of love at the same time." He went on to point out that it's ridiculous to expect to be giddy in love (his words) forever, and that when he found himself falling out of love with his wife, he deliberately acted more loving, because he knew he wanted to stay married to his wife, regardless of whether or not he was in love with her at that time. Eventually, he would "fall back in love" with her, every time. It goes both ways - his wife had the same experiences, I'm certain.

Every successful long term relationship I'm aware of follows this path in some manner. When you are committed to the relationship, you are committed. You don't love your wife the exact same way you did on the day you married her, or the exact same way you will love her in a decade. If you've been married for any length of time, there have been days where you didn't love your wife, and days she didn't love you, but you both faked it until the feelings of love that are specific to the both of you about each other came back. Actions absolutely do affect feelings,, it's an extremely well-documented psychological phenomenon.

Having said all that, and assuming you're still reading this, I do understand the point you are making - that how you feel is how you feel, and that you can't force yourself to believe in something you don't believe in, much less love it. If god is real, then he would be able to see through the fakery, so it's kind of a catch-22. I agree with that premise (to a point, as demonstrated above), and have said the same thing more or less, probably here in this forum. The premise itself is fine, but the additional matters that got tossed in are subjective (so far), and you've been given links to demonstrate why the rest of what you're saying is factually incorrect. If you don't want to verify that your assumptions are true, that's fine, but getting others to agree with your assumptions when given support that you may be wrong is unlikely.

Edited for clarification
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 09:58:08 AM by Jag »
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline Jag

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #181 on: March 27, 2013, 10:02:06 AM »
I thought Christians were bad about giving concrete examples, at least they try. Not one atheist on here can list a time when they altered love or a belief by willpower and then they claim it can be done and Im stupid. I thought they used reason, logic, and examples to back up claims. I at least attempted to give you mine, I would appreciate same courtesy to just get one. If that's too much to ask then just admit you can't come up with one and quit acting like Christians who evade the topic

Do you have any idea how rude you are being?
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #182 on: March 27, 2013, 10:11:27 AM »
Ok Jag, I can accept that. And I certainly appreciate the example cuz it seems valid on the love. The only thing though about that example I question is even though he didn't feel in love with her at times, didn't he still love her? Maybe he truly didn't. But I myself have done the same thing with my wife. Matter of fact, I'm not in love( infatuated)with her now, but I do love her deeply. I've never been in a situation where I loved something because I willed myself to love it though. I willed myself to stay with my wife during bad times because I thought about consequences of divorce, but thats just controlling my circumstances, not my love. And my love changed for her since then as well, but it was because I gave it a chance, so I guess in a sense I did control it. Not sure though if the same thing though because I at least loved her to begin with and that itself was out of my control. Now about the belief system and ability to alter that, you do see where I'm coming from it seems.

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #183 on: March 27, 2013, 10:15:22 AM »
Well sorry if I came off rude. Until you came along and gave an example I was getting nothing but rudeness and name calling myself. You even sounded rude at end of your comment, but I overlooked it because you were so nice in trying to answer my question. Again, sorry but frustrated for answers and examples instead of demeaning remarks.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #184 on: March 27, 2013, 10:15:42 AM »
Love is an emotion.  Emotional belief (belief fueled by emotions), also counts.

If you want something to be true, you can convince yourself that it is true.  And if you don't want it to be true, you can convince yourself that it isn't.  People do this all the time, Cutdogg; it's how the human mind works.  Where do you think all these myths and beliefs that we're saddled with came from?  It's very easy to become saddled with beliefs that aren't true, or beliefs that true things aren't.

Why do you think theists are always trying to get nonbelievers to "open their hearts", to believe in the god they worship?  It's because it works unless someone actively guards against it.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #185 on: March 27, 2013, 10:31:42 AM »
No Screw that's where you're wrong. I did provide evidence of real situations that not only happen to me,

Cutdogg, what you offered was not evidence.  It was an anecdote. This was my point to you about evidence.  Apparently that information either sailed clear over your head or was deflected by your cranium.  Either way, it did not find its way to your brain.

you can't give me one instance in your life...

You don't get it.  I've tried to explain as simply and straight forward as I can, but you do not get it.  That is not evidence.  You may think it is, but it's not.   

You keep mischaracterizing what I have said by bringing up "will" and "belief" even though I've corrected you repeatedly.   I've never said you can will yourself to believe anything.  Will never came into the conversation until you brought it in and I have consistenly rejected it.  Somehow that has not sunk in with you.   

We cannot have a conversation about this.  You lack the background and reading comprehension.  The gap between your knowledge and mine is too great.   Example:

And what the psychologists are saying, did they tell you that in a link. Ok then what's the difference in them telling you that, and a preacher telling you there's a God.

Fabulously wrong.  Comparing scientific research to the grotesque proclamations of a shaman.  You demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of and respect for science.  I have neither the time nor the inclination to help educate you, especially since you have resisted my corrections of the simplest things in this conversation.     

But why can't you believe me over some psychologist that's never been in my thoughts, that I can't control what I believe or love????

Because you have convinced me you are an idiot.[1] 

I cannot talk to you anymore.  Good luck.

 1. For the record, that was the first time in this thread you were called a name.
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Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #186 on: March 27, 2013, 10:42:17 AM »
Alright Jaime, I appreciate that but why won't that work for me? Any suggestions on how I could believe in the tooth fairy? or God?? Because I wanted to for 40 years and I did all the things that a Christian does but my love for him never manipulated. Nor did my questions on whether he really existed. And the more I studied the Bible, the more contradictions I read, creating more confusion and doubt until I didn't believe anymore. I really would rather believe in God, Jesus, and the whole Christian philosophy, but I never could probably for same reason you can't. Therefore I choose to, but don't. Same reason no matter how hard I try, I can't believe Santas bringing presents, or the Earth is square. The facts show me otherwise. So if facts show me other wise that God isn't true, than why does it make sense that God punishes us for not believing when it's not something I control? Wouldn't that be same thing as punishing them for being blind at birth? Also would help and convince me better I can control this if you listed something in your life you controlled into a belief, and not because you saw evidence that made those decisions for you. Something you had to will into a belief when it wasn't there. Making you responsible for your actions.

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #187 on: March 27, 2013, 10:51:26 AM »
Like I said Screw, give yourself an example of willing yourself to belief, than you'll see its not possible, unless you can give example in your own life than youll know for yourself you can. you wont need a psychologist or me to tell otherwise. same with willing or controlling love. I know I can't, but maybe you can there bud. That's all I'm saying, not disagreeing or giving proof for your abilities, just mine. But if you can come up with something let me know how you did it and then if you'd be nice enough to share , maybe I can learn. Hope you have a good day

Offline Jag

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #188 on: March 27, 2013, 10:53:59 AM »
Well sorry if I came off rude. Until you came along and gave an example I was getting nothing but rudeness and name calling myself. You even sounded rude at end of your comment, but I overlooked it because you were so nice in trying to answer my question. Again, sorry but frustrated for answers and examples instead of demeaning remarks.

Sigh...

Apologies if my post sounded rude to you near the end - it wasn't my intent. I was attempting to clarify for you exactly what the others were disputing with you. I sat down and read your contributions and the responses on this entire thread before I posted anything, and although I don't think you see it, your posts have been a bit demanding and presumptuous. Frankly, your posts read (to me at least) as if you are angry and looking for a fight. If that interpretation is wrong, please at least try to keep it in mind when you post - so far, your style is rather aggressive and argumentative. There's nothing wrong with that - we certainly love a good argument here - but people will respond the same way.

The only thing though about that example I question is even though he didn't feel in love with her at times, didn't he still love her? Maybe he truly didn't.

Truthfully, there's no way for me to know the answer to that question.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #189 on: March 27, 2013, 11:09:34 AM »
Yeah I probably did come off rude and looking for a fight. I promise it didn't start out like that, but when I couldn't get people to answer the question like you just did, my tone changed out of frustration. But probably because I wasn't saying exact words I meant to relay and people are misreading what I meant. It can't be coincidence that everyone teamed up against me for a reason, so I must have not explained good what I really meant. I think you understand me totally though, so it's much easier to talk to you. And even you admit that we will never know whether the man truly loved. I know in my case though I've never been able to control my beliefs or love, so I started this whole debate to find out if anyone else realized same thing in theirs. Just wanted to know if Im alone with this curse. Thanks man. Good talk

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #190 on: March 27, 2013, 12:01:54 PM »
I'm not a psychologist, or even a psychiatrist, but remember how I said that it takes discipline?  Changing beliefs that you hold is not an easy process, it's one that takes a long time and effort.  And if you've tried and failed, it'll be that much harder the next time you try - it becomes a self-defeating prophecy.

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #191 on: March 27, 2013, 01:17:44 PM »
Ok maybe you're right about this and I just can't do it. That's why I wanted to know if anyone else has this problem. But can you honestly list something that you forced into a belief, or love for that matter??? I'm still waiting on one example of something in your life you can honestly say was forced. Until then, how do you know what you say is true that it can be forced with determination and willpower?

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #192 on: March 27, 2013, 01:24:03 PM »
Jaime I have tried to force love and belief for 40 years. It doesn't work for me. Everyone on here including yourself, that disagrees with me still can't name a time in their personal life where they achieved it. They keep giving me the excuse that psychologists say its possible. But the problem I have with that is they aren't listing the examples where it happened. People listed the fact you can change attitudes or behaviors, which I agree, but those attitudes and behaviors are manifestations of a belief or love you have to have in the first place. I tried changing my attitudes and behaviors to accomplish beliefs or love, and it never worked in that order. That's all Im saying

Offline Tonus

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #193 on: March 27, 2013, 01:34:28 PM »
My beliefs have never changed because I said to myself "okay, I will believe this now."  They changed when i had doubts about an existing belief (or set of beliefs) and searching for more information gave me new insight.

I have never felt love for someone by way of acclamation.

I don't know if that is what you're asking, nor do I know what others have said in response because I've been skimming the topic (it's gotten long and protracted and a fair bit repetitive for me).  Hopefully this doesn't derail the discussion.

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #194 on: March 27, 2013, 01:43:43 PM »
Thank you Tonus!!!!!!! You hit it on the nail!!! Finally someone understands and he barely read. Exactly!!! Wooohoooo!!! Praise The Lord!!!! Lol.
Sigh....
Now, with that point finally being understood, the reason I brought that up in the beginning was to prove that the Christian logic makes no sense because the whole concept of it is that if you don't believe in Jesus Christ dying, raising up from dead, and becoming our personal savior, for us to escape hell, then you will be damned forever. But my point that Tonus and I agree on is, you can't control that just like you can't control what color skin you're born with. You simply believe what you believe because of facts through life you pick up on along the way. Same works for real love. You love, because you started loving something or someone and it was out of your control. So why would a just and all knowing God condemn us for doing something we can't control!!!
And that's just one of the concepts that don't make sense with Christian beliefs. Plenty others but that right there is the main point they push!!!
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 01:55:17 PM by Cutdogg »

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #195 on: March 27, 2013, 01:50:19 PM »
Now, with that point finally being understood, the reason I brought that up in the beginning was to prove that the Christian logic makes no sense because the whole concept of it is that if you don't believe in Jesus Christ dying, raising up from dead, and becoming our personal savior, for us to escape hell, then you will be damned forever. But my point that Tonus and I agree on is, you can't control that just like you can't control what color skin you're born with. So why would a just and all knowing God condemn us for doing something we can't control!!!

Right.  In philosophy, the idea that you can choose your own beliefs is known as "doxastic voluntarism", and it's pretty contentious.  Some apologists attempt to defend the concept, which is really puzzling to me.  As the article on the topic at RationalWiki says, it's like saying that you can choose to become a Muslim because you tripped on a piece of bacon.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Jag

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #196 on: March 27, 2013, 01:53:53 PM »
Let's try framing it a little differently.

There are atheists on this board who are former believers, along with other atheists who never believed in the first place. This is a fact. For now let's focus on the first kind, former believers.

Some of these people would state that they believed without any doubts for quite some time - their belief was both real and sincere. Rather than tell any one specific story, I'll just share the general path that many of us followed to get to this place, where we no longer believe as we used to.

Some event or realization caused questions, which led to doubts about what they had formerly believed without question. Eventually, by way of discussion, reading, questioning, whatever, these people eventually became non-believers about the existence of God. This in no way invalidates the depth of belief they once had - True BlueTM believers do exist, and some of them change their minds based on specific circumstances.

For the record, that's not quite how it worked for me - I think I never entirely believed it, so my de-conversion didn't involve the same process of letting go of a belief - I had to let go of the fear of admitting to not believing, if that distinction makes sense. I think some of the push back you are getting on this topic is because you aren't considering other people's experiences with beliefs that changed, and there are many, many people on this board who fit the basic story I described above.

You keep talking about an act of will, I know, but you seem to be vastly underestimating the amount of will required in literally forcing yourself to see the world as it is, rather than as we wish it was or have been mistakenly led to believe it is.

Perhaps your truth is similar to mine - you wanted, desperately at times, to believe, but simply couldn't force yourself to do so. This doesn't mean there's something wrong with you, it could be that you always had some deep seated doubts that were uncomfortable to look at, so you ignored them for as long as you could. When you could no longer try to force this love and belief due to 40 years of consistent failure to get the results you were led to expect, you just accepted what you had suspected all along and admitted to yourself that you don't believe in a god. You failed in your efforts, not because science and psychology are wrong (not really what you said, I know) but because you knew it wasn't real. That makes considerably more sense to me.

The failure isn't with science or psychology, it's with the promotion of belief in things that can't be proven but that you are expected to allow to govern your life. Seeing religion for what it is, an amateur attempt at psychology and a means to control people's behavior, is a GOOD thing.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #197 on: March 27, 2013, 02:18:14 PM »
Yeah, I was raised in a Christian home so I did believe growing up with all my mind. But that was same thing as why kids believe in Santa and tooth fairy. Once I got in my 20s I noticed the doubts. When I was 38 I really started doubting because that's when I really started deeply studying Bible. Now at 41, it's first time I admitted to others Im not a Christian. I'm not going to say there's no possibility of a God, and be totally atheist, although I understand that aspect way better than I understand Christian side. But either way, that's my story. I just believe that through everything, I've come to conclusion that you Love what you Love, and Believe what you Believe. And it's all uncontrollable on my part because I tried. And I believe in something because of facts I've been presented, and when I was a Christian in total belief, I believed that because of facts in Bible I was presented to be true and didn't really try to second guess them. But either way, the most detrimental aspect that changed my mind was the fact I couldn't understand how an all-knowing God could punish for not believing. I simply believe because I do, or I don't. If it was a choice, then I'd still be a Christian.

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #198 on: March 27, 2013, 02:33:00 PM »
Thanks Piano for the terminology on that. So It seems many people on here also believe in that nonsense. And they're atheists, so it's a good topic to discuss. I'm glad you agree as well that its not possible because then I know Im not only one. And the Muslim bacon comparison another good one to ponder on!

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #199 on: March 27, 2013, 02:53:22 PM »
Thank you again Piano dwarf for clarifying the definition. Here's a post to read for all about this topic I've been trying to convey, maybe explain better why I don't believe you can control the belief:

Some political philosophers have traditionally utilized the preceding type of argument against the possibility of an ethics of belief in their arguments for toleration (see, for example, Bayle 2005; Locke 1983; Mill 1974; Spinoza 2001). The general line of thought is as follows. People can control whether they conduct an inquiry and whether they evaluate a body of evidence, so they are certainly responsible for inquiring and examining evidence. However, since the Blameworthiness Principle is true and since believing (or, more specifically, judging) is not the sort of thing over which people have voluntary control, if people examine a body of evidence in good conscience and form a belief regarding a proposition, the state has no right to punish them for holding that belief. Thus, for instance, although the state may demand that people hear the evidence for a particular religion, it has no right to punish people for failing to believe the tenets of that religion.

Some philosophers of religion have suggested that the same kind of argument applies to questions of justice not only regarding human affairs, but also regarding divine affairs. For example, they contend that it follows from the falsity of direct doxastic voluntarism and the truth of the Blameworthiness Principle that not even God could punish people, in this life or in the next, for failing to believe the tenets of a certain religion. Thus, they contend that a just God could not torment people eternally in hell, for failing to believe the tenets of a certain religion. Those who wish to deny this line of argument seem compelled to choose among the following strategies. First, they could attempt to show that direct doxastic voluntarism is true. Second, they could attempt to demonstrate that the Blameworthiness Principle is false. Third, they could attempt to show that God holds people accountable not for failing to form certain judgments about a particular set of religious principles, but for some other fault(s)—for example, failing to conduct an adequate investigation into or failing to be open to the truth of the tenets of a certain religion.

I believe the doxastic voluntarism theory is false, and that the Blameworthiness Principle is true.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 03:11:46 PM by Cutdogg »

Offline Jag

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #200 on: March 27, 2013, 03:07:40 PM »
^^^ THAT makes much more sense. I've agreed with you all along that actual belief can't be willed into existence, but I do think it can be willed out of existence, if the believer chooses to re-examine those beliefs (whatever they are) and finds them lacking in substance or credibility or whatever.

Maybe this is just a semantic issue. I think the point that screwtape and other have been trying to make is that it's not quite as cut-and-dried as your posts have suggested. Attitudes, conditioning, attachment, behaviors, and actions all impact each other in both directions. I can have a knee-jerk dislike of something, believing it to be "bad" for lack of a better word in this case, but can be proven wrong by experience, thereby changing my belief. My belief may have been wrong in the first place, but it doesn't mean I didn't truly believe it to start with.

As to religion, I agree with you about this. IF there is a god, and IF he/she/it is paying any attention to us, it makes little sense for that entity to punish non-believers for the "sin" of non-belief. It's not optional - either you believe or you don't. I couldn't become a believer as an act of will, and if god actually existed, then god would know I was faking anyway. This is my standard reply to Pascal's Wager. Hardly the first stupid faith-based belief we've encountered, and sadly, it won't be the last one either.

Edited to include last paragraph, which was the point of the post...too little coffee today.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 03:15:02 PM by Jag »
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #201 on: March 27, 2013, 03:15:02 PM »
Yeah Jag, but you still don't understand you're not willing them out of belief, you're simply discovering or searching for new facts that contradict what you believed before. I never said that, I said you can't control the belief once the facts are presented. You all misunderstood and you still do misunderstand if you think you choose what not to believe.

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #202 on: March 27, 2013, 03:17:30 PM »
You can choose all day to not believe the sky is blue but with the facts there I think you won't really believe it in your mind. Same principle can be applied to true love I believe