Author Topic: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself  (Read 23477 times)

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Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #145 on: March 26, 2013, 10:45:56 AM »
And another thing... My proof is my admittance that there has never been anything in my life that I have controlled or willed myself to truly believe or Love. If you can give me proof of something you can think of where you have willed yourself to believe in, or willed yourself to love, than I will believe you. Please list something to prove me wrong, because I can't think of one thing

Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #146 on: March 26, 2013, 11:00:52 AM »
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So whenever god intervenes in the bible, that was a mistake on his part?  In each and every cases, he should've left well enough alone?


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Do you really think God's way of saving starving children would be just to make them some food. 


You make this sound like a bad thing.


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That he wouldn't bother scorning the rest of us for letting it happen? 


Why not do both?  Feed starving children, and yell at the rest of us for allowing them to starve.



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Tolerance of greed is the responsibility of us all. If Every person out there that makes less than 2 million dollars a year could simply stand together against the billion dollar corps. that want all the money.  I wish they had it so there would be none left to spend and they would have to close their doors.  The gentleman I referred to earlier, Dr. Richard Wolfe, I don't know what his religion is but he knows his economics.  He has a website and I encourage all those in favor of ending poverty to check him out.  He thinks it's time to consider an alternative to capitalism and He makes some very good points.  Take Care.

Your point here is that we need to look out for each other.  That's fine, but where does god fit into all this?  He appears not to.  If we're suppose to depend on each other, and not rely on a god that cannot/should not intervene on our behalf, then why worship him at all?  Why pray?  It almost seems like you're suggesting that we shouldn't bother with this god guy at all.  I think on some level, you're aware that your god behaves the exact same way he would if he were non-existence.


 
Do you really think God would merely yell at us for allowing poverty.  Come on now. That would be like sentecing a serial killer to timeout.  Surely even in your disbelief you would certainly think that such a neglect would justify a stiffer penalty than a good yelling!  Gods part is in the spirit to give us strength and wisdom to fight the battles that need fighting.  See God works from the inside out not the outside in.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #147 on: March 26, 2013, 11:03:44 AM »
A few examples why I can't control what I love and believe are: 1)I love my wife and kids: now true I didn't love my wife as soon as I met her, things happened soon after that bringing on feelings of love that I didn't try or control on purpose. No matter how hard I fight against that love and deny it by mouth, my mind and heart tell me I love her. (Uncontrollable). As for my kids I loved them as soon as they were born. I couldn't stop loving them know matter how hard I try. Again, ( uncontrollable)
2) I believe the sky is a shade of blue: I have seen with my own eyes the color, and when I was little I learned what that color was called. No matter how many times someone tells me the color is really red, in my mind its blue until Webster changes the meaning of blue with red, again( uncontrollable)
I could list a million of these examples, can you list one where that's not true?

Offline screwtape

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #148 on: March 26, 2013, 11:22:28 AM »
Ok Screw, I'll say this because you're not the only person that believes love and belief are 2 things that can be controlled by our desire to do so.

That is not what I said.  I really, really get the impression you do not understand what I have said.  You are saying things to counter an argument I have not made.  You seem to be painting a caracture of my position.  It is as if you have only glanced at my posts. 

I do not think either belief or love are controlled and especially not by one's desire to do so.  I do not think you can will yourself to believe things.  I've said this already and agreed with you when you said it.  I do not think you can simply will yourself to have feelings.  I have no idea where you got this from.

I believe you can have an effect on your feelings.  The branch of study known as "psychology" agrees.

Did you read any of my links?  This is not a rhetorical question.  It is one I would like you to answer. 

The only way you can I can move forward in this discussion is if we both understand each other.  And based on what you have written, you missed about 95% of what I have tried to say.  As a result, 100% of your rebuttals have been aimed at targets that do not exist.  Example:

you're still confusing Love and beliefs...with behaviors and actions. The 2 latter can be faked!!!

I've not confused anything.  It is not my position that love and beliefs are the same as behaviors.  I think I have said that pretty clearly.  You have misunderstood.  Rather than restating your opinions, on which I think I have a pretty firm grasp by now, maybe you should back up and read my posts again, carefully, and actually think about what I wrote.  We agree on a lot more than you seem to think.


If you can give me proof of something you can think of where you have willed yourself to believe in, or willed yourself to love, than I will believe you.

Kindly quote one of my posts where I have made this argument. 

Hint: You won't find it because I've never said it.  It would help us to have a discussion if you did not completely misrepresent my position. 

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Online Aaron123

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #149 on: March 26, 2013, 11:27:48 AM »
Why would God saving children be grim?  Because I don't think God will just give those children food and ascend back into the clouds,  I believe there would be consequences to the rest of us for letting it happen.  Dark, grim consequences.

God doing stuff = A Bad Thing?  That's some bizzaro logic you have there.

I guess then, bible times were grimdark for no other reasons than god was doing stuff.  Bible times were not nasty because of slavery, mass-murder, false worship, mass poverty, or any other conventional reasons.  No, it was because *dramatic drum beat* god was doing stuff!


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See God loves us all. 


In the context of god doing stuff = bad, one would think the best thing to do is to distance yourself from god.


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Even the people that are to blame for poverty, so this must be an agonizing decision God makes everyday.

Do you believe god is an omni-max being or not?  If so, how can anything god say or do be "agonizing"?  To agonize over something implies uncertainty, confusion.  An omnimax being would not suffer from those things.


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I believe in God because I can not wrap my mind around the evolution theory.  How all this could come to existence without any form of intelligence is uncomprehending to me.

"I don't understand science, therefore, I'll go with magic"


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...so I was forced to find my own way to God, which I'm so glad I did or else I would be in the same boat with the rest of the brainwashed sheep following false doctrine.

*insert shiny mirror here*



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Where do you think our conscience comes from.  It is the spirit of God and the temptations of greed and violence.  What makes a person chose the good instead of the bad? Because the spirit of the person knows if they chose the bad their spirit will suffer more than their flesh.

Silly me.  All this time, I had this idea that some people are nice and care about others.  Seriously; there's no need to invoke magic here.


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See I won't worship a God or anything else that claims to torture good people the same as murderers and child molesters.


Your god DOES torture good people.  Read the book of Job for more details.  There, god made a deal with the devil to torture Job --a good man-- for no reasons other than the fun of it.
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Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #150 on: March 26, 2013, 11:31:32 AM »
Another example of how controlling love is impossible: let's say you decide you're going to love playing golf. And let's say right now you're neutral or you hate it, but you want to will yourself to love it. So you go buy some golf clubs and the necessities to play the game, call up a tee time, and commence to playing golf every day after work so you can start loving it. For some people this could actually work because they find it to be fun, relaxing, good exercise, what have ya. For some others they just don't understand what the thrill is in hitting and chasing a little ball around for 3 hrs and they hate it. They can't wait til this experiment is over so they can go back to their regular life's. In either case the participant in this experiment would have to have underlying qualities in them that possess the love for either sports, or enjoyment of exercise and the outdoors, or maybe some quality time with a friend. Many different scenarios would be the cause of why they love it or hate it. But one thing they couldn't do is force, or will, or control, their love or hate for the sport. They either do or they don't. Again I've still not had one person give me an example of something they willed into love, or a belief for that matter. So please feel free to try. I'm waiting earnestly!!

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #151 on: March 26, 2013, 11:41:15 AM »
Okay Scar sorry I just read your last post. Seems you were saying earlier that love and beliefs can be controlled, then said love only ( or emotions) can be controlled. Now you're completely agreeing that love and beliefs can't be controlled. I definitely should get my eyes checked cuz that's what posts say. But anyway Im sorry for misquoting you. And yeah Psychology may say that emotions can be controlled, but I would only agree with that if they meant outward emotions that people see, not inward that people are truly feeling. But there may be something there that Im not thinking about you could mention. I just know love and belief uncontrollable

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #152 on: March 26, 2013, 11:46:15 AM »
Screwtape, you're still missing the point. Attitudes and behaviors, or actions, are not the same as true love.

I'm not missing the point.  I agree they are not the same.  But I disagree that you have no control over them.

True love is something that is a feeling, not an act.

That is debatable.

Actions and behaviors can be faked or real depending on whether love is really true in your mind and heart.

You have not understood me, I think.  I am saying that if you behave a certain way, your emotions will follow consistently.
http://www.safetyperformance.com/whichfirst-attitudeorbehavior.pdf
http://psychology.jrank.org/pages/52/Attitude-Behavior.html
http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/10/05/the-benjamin-franklin-effect/
(^^Long, but totally worth it.  You will be smarter after reading it)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Franklin_effect


That's why your point of loving God in OT is not real love because the consequences are death if you don't.

Please don't tell me what my point was.  Especially when you seem to have missed it.

Although, the NT law of "Love God with all your heart and mind is still the same thing as OT because if you don't there's still consequences. Just worded differently.

Worded completely differently.  And in the OT version the love part was an after thought that came after threat of punishment.

But either way, that doesn't change fact you can't control what you truly love or believe.

Love and belief are two categorically different ideas.  I agree you cannot control what you believe.  But I think you do have some control over your emotions.

Psychologists are saying that your behavior and attitudes can change based on belief or love, but I don't believe love and beliefs can be changed by simply behavior, actions, or attitudes.

You seem to be completely confused. You are throwing love and belief together.  They are not the same.  And what you believe is in conflict with the data.

If so, then that would have worked on me since I was a Christian for 40 years.

Apparently it worked for 40 years.

but that was due to brainwashing, not my positive actions.

You mean positive actions like going to church or praying?  And what exactly is "brainwashing"?  Is it exploiting mental processes?  Is it manipulating people, coercing them with psychological tools?  How is it different from persuasion?  Is speaking to a waitress respectfully and saying "please" a form of brainwashing?  Because I sure think it is coersion.

But no matter how hard a person tries, real love and beliefs come from experiences and knowledge you pick up on way of life, not from being forced or trying real hard.

I completely agree.  And if you behave in a certain way, that is "experience", which leads to feeling.

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #153 on: March 26, 2013, 11:51:02 AM »
Where you misled me is in the last quote above. You said you agree beliefs are uncontrollable but feelings, or emotions, can be controlled by your actions. But I say that maybe there is some, I just know real love is not one of these feelings. Because even though real love will produce behaviors that are showing love, behaviors can't force real love.

Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #154 on: March 26, 2013, 12:01:50 PM »
Another example of how controlling love is impossible: let's say you decide you're going to love playing golf. And let's say right now you're neutral or you hate it, but you want to will yourself to love it.

Cutdogg, your definition of love needs some work. Love sucks as a goal. It works best when it is a byproduct. That is, when it comes to you via a series of actions/events/happenings/feelings/affections. If your parents fed you and clothed you and housed you through thick and thin, and you came to realize that they cared about, at some point you hopefully started loving your parents in return. If you have friends who have stuck with you through thick and thin and whose company you enjoy and look forward to and their reliability is close to being above reproach, you might decide you love them in some sense, even though that was not necessarily your original intent. If you meet a person and the two of you are mutually attracted and neither of you get selfish and both of you honestly care about the other, love may well blossom. Too, it may not because other factors inhibit said romance. For instance, two people meet, fall for each other hard, and then one discovers that the other has opposite religious views that they consider intolerable. That could put the kibosh on the whole thing. Or not. It would depend on a lot of factors.

But the golf thing is silly. That isn't what love is for. And that is not how love works. At least not the kind that I have experienced. Again, love works best when it is the byproduct of numerous human kindnesses, of caring, of honesty, of realistic expectations (okay, okay, you can toss puppies and kittens into the mix too, if you must). I've no idea how golf would fit into that.

I have been known to say that I love to rock climb. Or at least I did until i got old. But that "love" was not the same thing as my feelings for my parents or siblings or ex's or kids. It was an expression of pleasure and joy, but it was not something returned by the rocks I scaled or the rocks I fell off of. It was a feeling solely within me, and that doesn't count.

Love of a god that doesn't exist is exactly the same. And the reason your attempt to love him failed is probably the simple fact that non-existent entities can't do diddly in return, no matter how good you feel about them. Unless you have a great imagination, in which case you can make up how wonderful he is and how much he loves you, etc. You can make his feelings for you match exactly what you would hope they would be. Because it is one sided whether you know it or not, a self-defined loving gods tends to be pretty acceptable to those believers who have made up all the parameters. But it isn't real, live human love, because, like with other varieties of masturbation, something is missing.

Your love of sex and drugs is complicated a bit by the propensity for human bodies to get hooked on various pain and pleasure sources. Again, not the same thing as feelings for your child or your spouse or your brothers. Equating the two belittles what love really is, and falsely elevates any habit to a useless level, feeling-wise.

You were wise enough to finally realize that your one-sided love affair with god (or your attempts, anyway) were useless because they were, as I said, one-sided. That works neither in religion or in human relationships. Granted, there are plenty of people in relationships where only one person loves the other, if that many, but the people involved still try going through the motions.

That is their problem. Unless one is making the other their slave or something. But that just goes to show that we humans can pervert anything, even the best stuff that we've got.

It takes two to tango. It takes at least two to love. Golf doesn't count. Nor, of course, do gods.




Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #155 on: March 26, 2013, 12:21:01 PM »
Yeah I can buy that. Good point. However, some people, not you of course, do truly love certain inanimate objects, including God. And they do it whether the object or being loves them back. It even works with people too. A lot of people love another person deeper than you and I love someone who really loves them. So that part of your view on what love really is isn't accurate. But still, I agree to disagree on what love is, but I still would like to hear of an example where someone controlled either there love for something, or belief in something. That's what my argument is, and only is.

Online Aaron123

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #156 on: March 26, 2013, 12:43:53 PM »
Do you really think God would merely yell at us for allowing poverty.  Come on now. 

Considering that god's plan involves doing NOTHING, I would, quite frankly, settle for him "merely" yelling at someone.  Thus far, your god has set my expectations so low, that yelling does seem like a huge step forward.


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That would be like sentecing a serial killer to timeout.

Imagine that prior to this, the judge has done nothing, avoided pronouncing a sentence, avoided showing up at court, his representatives kept making claims that pronouncing a sentence would make things worse.  After all that, sentecing a timeout would seem like some progress was finally being made.

By the way, if a judge really did act like this, he'd be charged for gross incompetence.  Yet, you give your god a free pass.  What gives?


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Surely even in your disbelief you would certainly think that such a neglect would justify a stiffer penalty than a good yelling! 


My "disbelief" in god is the same as your "disbelief" in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.


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Gods part is in the spirit to give us strength and wisdom to fight the battles that need fighting.  See God works from the inside out not the outside in.

You're fully well aware that your god does nothing, and will never, ever do anything.  This is why you're making up magical woo to try to justify your god's inaction.  There was none of this "working from the inside out" thing in the bible.  Funny how god's actions changes whenever we become better at recording and examining things...
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #157 on: March 26, 2013, 01:11:51 PM »
but I would only agree with that if they meant outward emotions that people see, not inward that people are truly feeling.

You are making a weird distinction between "outward" emotions and "true" emotions.   I do not think there is any such distinction.


Where you misled me is in the last quote above. You said you agree beliefs are uncontrollable but feelings, or emotions, can be controlled by your actions. But I say that maybe there is some, I just know real love is not one of these feelings. Because even though real love will produce behaviors that are showing love, behaviors can't force real love.

Please stop using words I did not use.  And stop conflating your unfounded opinions with knowledge.

I asked you a specific question which you have not answered.  I provided you with links.  Have you read them?  Do you understand what links are?

Also, to learn how to use the quote function, click below in my sig.  The blue words are a link that will take you to a tutorial.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #158 on: March 26, 2013, 01:15:01 PM »
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I don't care if it offends you.  Really, I don't.  Perhaps if you're offended by it, you'll take it more seriously.  I don't know.  Different approaches work on different people.  In the end, I'd rather you seriously consider the fact that worshiping a being that has the power to stop immense amounts of suffering and does nothing with it, is inherently bad.  Half the problem with Christians is that they lead with their emotions instead of their brains.  They don't know how to temper their emotions with reason and logic.  They think with their gut and that gets them in trouble.


I would never follow someone that does not care if they offend someone or not. Especially if I thought it would make me mean. I temper my emotions just fine thank you.  You really don't know me at all.  If you did you would know that yes I once was Atheist, now I am not. I am not Christian, Apologetic, or any of the rest of that stuff, I am own my own, I call it Spiritual. I know there is a spirit that lives within me, I can feel it trapped inside walls of flesh.  That is the part of me that God wants. The inside.

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It's fine to believe that, but can you prove it?  If I said I had faith in the ability of the unicorn in my garage to keep my tires from going flat, what would you think of me?  I feel the same way about someone who says 'through my faith I believe there is a purpose for your revelation'.  Your faith is absolutely useless.  Just as you would say mine is with the unicorn in my garage.

Not a good comparison.  Creation is my definition of how we came to be, our purpose for surviving this life.  Unicorns don't offer any answers to our existence, if they do I certainly have not heard that one but I wouldn't bite unless the argument that unicorns created man and earth made some sense.  I believe in intelligent Creation, not some freak explosion or evolving apes.  So far after 100,000 years on the planet or so creation is still the most plausible to me. 

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Arguments that invoke the beliefs of the masses are fallacious and should not weigh in on the discussion.  A long time ago, most people believed the world was flat, that demons caused disease, that lightning was divine anger, etc.  The masses are often very, very wrong.  You, personally, are probably not dumb.  But your belief in the Christian God is dumb.  It doesn't matter that you share that problem with lots and lots of people.  You all could really be wrong.  And I'm quite sure you are. 


No, I doubt that.  You were handed one side of a very 2 sided argument and the very core of that argument is what you've held to.  I was handed one side (as you) and looked at the other side myself in an honest attempt at learning what the truth was.  How much atheist literature have you read, Junebug?  How much do you know about how the bible came to be?  How much do you know about the authors?  How much do you know about the historians during the time of Jesus?  How many books have you read about the other gospels that didn't make it into the cannon? 

I've read the bible.  I've visited countless religious websites.  I've read 4 different apologetics books and somewhere near 10 books on atheism.  I've been on this website for several years now, listening to people like you present argument after horrible argument and there is only one possible conclusion.  The Christian God isn't real.  Can you say you've honestly given the other side a fair shot?  I doubt you can.

You would be wrong. I was an atheist for 10 years thank you very much. 

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My path uses reason, yours uses faith.  In every other area of your life, which of those 2, do you think, is more likely to lead to truth?  Now explain to me why it's different with religion.

My path uses reason and faith.

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I wasn't searching for the non-existence of God.  I don't even know what the hell that means.  I wanted to know whether God existed or didn't exist, and I listened to both sides intently, then made my conclusion.

That doesn't make any sense to me. You don't know what the non-existence of God means and your atheist :? Sometimes being hateful just don't make sense.

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You found God because you were looking for God.  I found the truth because I wasn't looking to confirm what I'd been told.  I was looking for truth.
 

I found God because I was searching for truth, the reason I am here etc.. Evolution offers no such answer, so therefor I revisited the idea of Creation by intelligence, by God, and through much study and soul searching I found Him and it wasn't in any church.

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I live in the bible belt.  Do you really think its comfortable to be an atheist here?  If I were looking for comfort, I'd be a sheep like the rest of you.  My comfort lies in knowing I gave an equal ear to both sides before making my decision.

No I know it isn't, I live in the bible belt too,NC, and it's just as "not easy" to be a lesbian here.   

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Because you don't really believe that.  You don't.  How do I know that?  Simple.  If God came down, right now, and fed 30,000 starving children and brought them all back to good health, would you think of that as a good thing or a bad thing?  If you have a shred of decency, you'd think it was a good thing.  You know you'd think it was good.  You KNOW it.  What you are trying to say, however, is that if God did that, HELPING the children would actually be doing something that would NOT be in the interest of the whole human race, and you'd be forced to condemn the action.  You said God doing nothing is what's best for the human race, so that means God helping the human race would be awful.  Do you really, really believe that?  No, you don't.

Of course I would, but what happens when God goes back to His place of being God? I feel like it will get worse because the ones out there that are doing this will not have to bother with a conscience because they would know that God will save whomever they hurt. 

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Truth be told, helping out might not be in the best interest of humanity in every case, but childhood starvation?  Good luck with that one.

God does help starving children, you just can't see it because of your disbelief. 

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If your son was starving to death, would you feed him, or would you let him die?  God lets them die.

Do you think dying is a bad thing to God.  Man fears death not God, God is the cure for death, those children aren't dead they are somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. They are with God.

As far as your question I would feed my son, yes I would.  If my son was being starved to death by another son I don't know what I would do.  I would probably feed the hungry one, but I'm afraid of what I might do to the other one.

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Bullshit. If God got your son of pills with the snap of his fingers, would you be angry with him for not allowing your son to struggle with it?  What of those who continue to take the pills and DIE from them? That happens all the time!  Is it really better for God to NOT step in and help those people that he knows are going to die?

God did help my son off drugs. He helps many people get off drugs.  I don't recall ever saying I would be angry with God for helping, I am saying I see a bigger picture than you and I understand why He doesn't do more.   

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It's like you have this mantra running through your mind... God is good, God is good, God is good, anything that contradicts that is false, or just a mystery... STOP doing that.  Use your head.  It is ALRIGHT to admit that if God helped your son, it would be a good thing.  It is ALRIGHT to admit that if God helped starving children, that would be a good thing.  It is also, ALRIGHT to admit that because he doesn't, he's either not interested in helping, not powerful enough to do it, or better yet, that he's not actually there in the first place.

God is good and anything that contradicts that is not the truth so far as I am concerned.  And yes you are right it's okay to believe what you want, so I'll keep on believing, thanks.   

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And what of those who die of starvation before they achieve the rightful age at which they can earn such a promise?  What of the babies who die from AIDS every day?

There is no such thing as a rightful age to achieve such a promise of heaven, I've heard of the age of accountability, which means that you have to be old enough to understand God to be judged, children of any religion I have studied get a free pass right into the pearly gates.  That makes perfect sense to me. 

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And can you prove that heaven exists?  No?  Then it's just a claim.  One that needs to be analyzed for truth versus rhetoric.  Heaven might not exist.

You know I can not prove this, no more than you can prove it does not.  Do you believe in evolution? If so where is the proof of that.  It is only a theory without tests and pictures, but you believe that.   There have been lots and lots of people that have seen a glimpse by way of the near death experience.  Not many have come back to say there is nothing there, I just didn't exist anywhere for those 2 minutes I was dead. 



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Answer the question... IF God wasn't real, would that explain why God doesn't help starving children?  PLEASE answer that.

If God wasn't real there would be a lot more starvation in this world!

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I can't help but wonder what goes through your mind when you say stuff like this.  Would you really be all that upset with God if he came down and fed the children?  It sounds like you would be upset by it.  Is that the person you really are? 


I'm sorry, but if God was real, and he came down and fed all the starving children, I'd be happy about it.  You'd think it was bad for the world if God did that. Your religion has done that to you.  It sounds pretty evil to me.

And yet, in the same breath, you say you want people to feed the hungry children instead, as if it would be a good thing.  Why is it good if people do it but bad if God does it? Because we learn something? Guess what, Junebug.  We haven't learned anything from it.  Kids are still dying.  They've been dying for centuries. If you are basing the entire process of 'earning the promise of heaven' on humanity's ability to feed the poor, then we're all going to hell.  It seems like people, as a whole, aren't getting what you think they should get.  But in the end, whether God helps or people help, the children aren't starving anymore, right?  Are you seriously going to sit there and tell me that the deaths of millions of children every year is the wages we have to pay to... consistently fail at taking care of ourselves? 

In truth, this whole thing is nothing more than you trying to deflect the focus away from God's ineptitude and capriciousness and onto humanity, but you should stop trying to do that and really look at what we're saying.   


Good and evil are adjectives used to describe an individual's perceptions of actions, deeds, etc.  Good as a 'thing' does not exist, and neither does 'evil'.  But I can describe actions as good or evil. 


It's not the wording I would use, but it's close enough.  I would say the first part of your sentence is correct, but saying you have no responsibility over your thoughts and actions is debatable.  And it gets into the discussion of free will, which... if I were you... I'd stay clear of. 

People are not inherently good or evil.  Their actions can be good or evil as described by other people's perceptions of those actions.  Even the most horrible people in the world did some good things too.  So calling them 'evil' to describe them as a whole is wrong.

Why do you think your disapproval of what you've said changes anything about the truth of it?  I disapprove of the fact that eating ice cream makes me fat, but you don't see me eating it anyway in hopes that I'll get thin.  The truth doesn't care what I think; nor does it care what you think.

I would be happy to see the children fed and if it costs me my life and the world as we know it, so be it.

I don't think I have disapproved of myself here.


Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #159 on: March 26, 2013, 01:54:32 PM »
Screw I already gave you my examples of proof. They're as clear and indisputable as the sky is blue. ( that was one of them by the way). However if you want to prove a theory you or any psychologist has, simply list it like I did. Something they said can be used as your proof as well and claim it as your own, I don't care. Either way list one thing that you can say is a situation where real love, ( or in your words, emotion), was controlled into existence. Or a belief will work too. All Im asking for is one and your point is proven. Other than that I have no interest or other argument with you. Just forget any other thing to argue about unless you have an example to disprove this one topic: LOVE AND BELIEFS ARE NOT CONTROLLABLE BY OUR OWN WILL. Thats only point I'm trying to make, I gave you a few of my proofs among millions I could have listed if you need more. All Im asking for is one. If however you agree with me on that 1 issue, then there's no need to argue about anything else because we were just misunderstanding each other. This was only point I was trying to make even if you misunderstood me because I didn't word correctly. Thanks
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 01:56:16 PM by Cutdogg »

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #160 on: March 26, 2013, 02:13:57 PM »
The reason I haven't looked at your post is because I'm only going to believe the psychologists report if there's some concrete evidence. Just like you don't believe in God because of lack of evidence. Why should I not be entitled to same proof as you need. And I don't want some study where they interviewed people and they told them something based on a feeling. I want an example of something in their life or your life where you willed yourself to truly love, or believed something that you willed yourself to believe and it just happened. Don't list examples unless the only reason you loved or believed was because you forced yourself too, then it happened. Then I'll know its possible with others, just not me. And I don't have to have a psychologist, or a preacher , or any theory to validate my claims for the simple fact I used real facts in my life for my examples of proof. If we had to rely on others for all our info the world would have still been considered flat up until a space craft took a picture. Just maybe Im on to something nobody else has thought of!
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 02:17:05 PM by Cutdogg »

Online Aaron123

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #161 on: March 26, 2013, 02:31:47 PM »
Of course I would, but what happens when God goes back to His place of being God? I feel like it will get worse because the ones out there that are doing this will not have to bother with a conscience because they would know that God will save whomever they hurt. 

...

God does help starving children, you just can't see it because of your disbelief. 

...

Do you think dying is a bad thing to God.  Man fears death not God, God is the cure for death, those children aren't dead they are somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. They are with God.


Your answers are all over the place.

It's bad for god to help people... BUT he does help feed starving children... BUT it's best for those children to starve and die, since they'll be with god, instead of this awful, awful place.

Which is it?  Is god helping people a bad thing?  If so, then it's a bad thing for him to feed starving children.

Is feeding people a good or bad thing?  If letting people starve allows them to enter heaven sooner, then the best thing for us to do would be to let all those people starve.  Sounds like a win-win scenario.  We don't do anything, just like god.  All those people die and go straight to heaven, and they're "saved" from this evil world.

Yet for some reason, god doesn't like it when we don't help others.  Whatever.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #162 on: March 26, 2013, 02:36:39 PM »
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Why jump straight to magical food?  Why not just tweak the clouds and make it rain some more to allow sufficient crops to grow?  Why not alter the composition of the soil so that more nutrients are held?  I can think of dozens of little "tweaks" that an omnipotent god could make that would allow the starving to help themselves - you know, like he apparently wants them to.  But all the time he doesn't, thousands suffer and die on a daily basis while god twiddles his thumbs and wishes real hard that we'd help them out just that little bit more


Out of interest, when your son was hooked on pain pills (and I wonder how THAT happened?  God's will?), did you expect other people, who didn't know him, to help him out?  I'm glad it all worked out for you....but supposeing it hadn't?  Suppose you'd cut him off - and he'd taken to mugging people to get money to buy pills for himself.  Would you have continued with the "doing nothing" approach?  Washed your hands of him and kept your fingers crossed that someone else would sort him out?  Or would you, as a loving parent, have not just "cut him off", period, but done everything within your power to help him?

I was never worried that he wouldn't find his way. I know him.  I knew a little tough love was what he needed.  I also knew if I kept supporting him I was supporting his habit.  If God helps us now He would be doing the same thing.  Enabling us to continue to tolerate Greed.  Tough love only works in parallel to sweet love.  What I am saying here is all the sweet love made the tough love work.  Children that are cut off and find their way into desperation, do not know much sweet love.  This is between a mother and son, and his behavior only hurt us, not the whole world.  Thank God!  I only have one child, God has 7 billion and he loves us all.  Since God is intelligent enough to create the planets and man, I will have faith in His decision making.



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Interesting.  You've said before that you are convinced there is no "negative afterlife" - no hell.  What exactly then - in your opinion - happens to those people who do not "earn Heaven"?  And perhaps more importantly, what evidence do you have for your opinion?

I believe in reincarnation.  Seems an appropriate punishment for any man.  The worse you are, the lower down the totem pole you go.  That's what God has placed in my Heart.  As far as evidence, not much. Faith is difficult, that is why it is rewarded.

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #163 on: March 26, 2013, 03:08:00 PM »


[/wow youre all over the place with all the religions mixed together. maybe you got it right. id have to agree the reincarnation thing makes alot more sense than hell for eternity. i just cant believe in any of it though. wish I could. my guess if reincarnation was real, then I would come back as a dog because theyre pretty high up there and Im a pretty good person. however Ive beat a few dogs in my day so my punishment should be to be a dog but have an owner beat me when I don't know where the hell I'm supposed to shit. Now that would be a just God!]
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 03:10:33 PM by Cutdogg »

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #164 on: March 26, 2013, 03:13:59 PM »
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Why jump straight to magical food?  Why not just tweak the clouds and make it rain some more to allow sufficient crops to grow?  Why not alter the composition of the soil so that more nutrients are held?  I can think of dozens of little "tweaks" that an omnipotent god could make that would allow the starving to help themselves - you know, like he apparently wants them to.  But all the time he doesn't, thousands suffer and die on a daily basis while god twiddles his thumbs and wishes real hard that we'd help them out just that little bit more


Out of interest, when your son was hooked on pain pills (and I wonder how THAT happened?  God's will?), did you expect other people, who didn't know him, to help him out?  I'm glad it all worked out for you....but supposeing it hadn't?  Suppose you'd cut him off - and he'd taken to mugging people to get money to buy pills for himself.  Would you have continued with the "doing nothing" approach?  Washed your hands of him and kept your fingers crossed that someone else would sort him out?  Or would you, as a loving parent, have not just "cut him off", period, but done everything within your power to help him?

I was never worried that he wouldn't find his way. I know him.  I knew a little tough love was what he needed.  I also knew if I kept supporting him I was supporting his habit.  If God helps us now He would be doing the same thing.  Enabling us to continue to tolerate Greed.  Tough love only works in parallel to sweet love.  What I am saying here is all the sweet love made the tough love work.  Children that are cut off and find their way into desperation, do not know much sweet love.  This is between a mother and son, and his behavior only hurt us, not the whole world.  Thank God!  I only have one child, God has 7 billion and he loves us all.  Since God is intelligent enough to create the planets and man, I will have faith in His decision making.



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Interesting.  You've said before that you are convinced there is no "negative afterlife" - no hell.  What exactly then - in your opinion - happens to those people who do not "earn Heaven"?  And perhaps more importantly, what evidence do you have for your opinion?

I believe in reincarnation.  Seems an appropriate punishment for any man.  The worse you are, the lower down the totem pole you go.  That's what God has placed in my Heart.  As far as evidence, not much. Faith is difficult, that is why it is rewarded.




[/wow youre all over the place with all the religions mixed together. maybe you got it right. id have to agree the reincarnation thing makes alot more sense than hell for eternity. i just cant believe in any of it though. wish I could. my guess if reincarnation was real, then I would come back as a dog because theyre pretty high up there and Im a pretty good person. however Ive beat a few dogs in my day so my punishment should be to be a dog but have an owner beat me when I don't know where the hell I'm supposed to shit. Now that would be a just God!

Offline screwtape

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #165 on: March 26, 2013, 03:18:59 PM »
Cutdogg, You are new here and not familiar with our little virtual culture.  So please take this in the spirit in which I give it - as help and guidance

Just forget any other thing to argue about unless you have an example to disprove this one topic: LOVE AND BELIEFS ARE NOT CONTROLLABLE BY OUR OWN WILL.

Bold mine.  "Prove it doesn't" does not fly.  It is a terrible policy, bad logic and assumes the tactics of the religious.  We adhere to strict burden of proof rules.  She who makes the claim is responsible for the evidence. 

If you make a claim and then demand the other guy disprove it, that is unacceptable.  I could claim Loch Ness monster and demand you "prove it doesn't exist".  How does one prove a loch ness monster isn't real?  Where does one find concrete evidence that a thing does not exist?  Non-existence inherenly leaves no evidence.  So, that kind of argument does not fly.  Not in this neck of the woods.  If I say Loch Ness Monster, then it is up to me to show it. 

Now, in our conversation I've said you can affect attitudes and feelings by taking actions.  I then provided evidence.  I lived up to my burden of proof.  You disagree with me.  That is okay (but in this case ill advised).   However, rather than provide evidence of your own, or explain why my evidence fails, you have demanded I prove you wrong.  Imagine if the god botherers were to come in here and say "I say god exists, it is up to you to prove me wrong"?  Same bad argument.  Same shirking of responsibility for evidence.

Now you have admitted you did not even look at my evidence.  Well, shame on you.  I have put forth a great deal of effort in this conversation, in good faith.  You, on the other hand, have ignored my questions, dismissed my information out of hand and repeated your opinions at me.  I do not find that courteous.  Perhaps me pointing this out to you will help you see the error of your ways. 

The reason I haven't looked at your post is because I'm only going to believe the psychologists report if there's some concrete evidence.

Pardon me, dogg, but that is baloney.  How could you know what is in my link if you haven't read it?  If you do not know what it is in it, you cannot be dismissive of it.  So, sorry, I do not buy this.  It sounds more like an after the fact justification.

Are you even qualified to understand what a psych study entails?  What is your background in science?

Why should I not be entitled to same proof as you need.

You are.  That is why I supported my claims.  You have not.  You have stubbornly ignored evidence presented to you and repeated your unsupported opinions over and over.  We are not playing the same game, old bean.  You are asking for a double standard.

I want an example of something in their life or your life where you willed yourself to truly love, or believed something that you willed yourself to believe and it just happened.

You seem to not be familiar with evidence.  Let me help.  Me telling you some dumb story from my life is called an anecdote.  It is not data.  It is not evidence.  It counts for nothing to anyone else in the world.  It is as credible as some bible thumper coming here and saying they were touched by god.  Instead, I have included links with essays of varying authority. But you would not know that, because you have dismissed them out of hand.

Add to that you still cannot accurately communicate my point nor have you answered any of the questions I asked you.



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Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #166 on: March 26, 2013, 03:39:58 PM »
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Do you not see the inherent contradiction? 

Think of someone you love.  Think about if they did somthing bad.  Do you think you could help correct or teach him without the consequences being dark or grim?  If so, why do you think an omnipotent being could not?


That is pure SPAG


"I don't understand science so I will be superstitious instead"?  That is not a winning approach.  If everyone were to have kept to that philosophy, we would still be drilling holes in people's heads to let the evil spirits out when they were sick. 


In otherwords, you do not expect god to actually do anything.  You expect the universe to behave in exactly the same way as if there were not gods.  Otherwise, omnipotent beings would not have to work "through" people.


evolution and empathy


So you say, but how do you know and why should anyone believe you?


evolution, empathy and mirror neurons.

So you say, but how do you know and why should anyone believe you?

The rest is just a bunch more unfounded claims that make you feel better. 

 
eh, no.  That was you.  It was your own moral compass pointing the way.  That is a good thing.  It tells me you are much more moral and kind than xians.

It's superstition to you not to me.  I really do care.  I am not concerned for anyone's soul here.  Most of you are more righteous than the Christians that spread hate and prejudice in the name of God.  I know the stuff I'm telling you seems out there to you all, but it makes sense to me.

I understand science just fine, that is why evolution does not make sense to me.  If we came from apes the apes would be gone, they are humans now. How could an explosion know the earth would need an atmosphere to protect it from radiation off the sun?  That takes intelligence.  The structure of the smallest creature, intelligence.  Reproduction; intelligence.  Photosynthesis; again intelligence.  I can't believe people out there believe that stuff.  The difference between you and I is that I don't have to insult you to share my beliefs and that is because God guides my spirit not man.  This kind heart comes from God and nowhere else.

As far as the first question, do we not put murderers to death in this country.  Don't believe in it, but we do it.  Why do we do it, because the crime was horrific.  Letting children or anyone else for that matter go hungry until death is horrific.  The masses following the greedy blindly, because you might lose your job and go hungry if you stand up against them, so we cowardly follow along and want God to fix it.  I say it's time we all grow a pair and change the world! What do you think God should do with the rest of us that are responsible for the poverty that kills His precious babies!  Give us time out?  Could he do it Yes He could, The question here I thought was should He? 

When a cop saves a man by shooting the other man, there is a person saved with grim consequences.  One man dies so another may live.  You can't have your cake and eat it too, never understood why not but we all know what this means, I hope.  You can't have God save the children without suffering the consequences. Could He, of course He could, but should He.  Does the human race really deserve to continue if it don't care about the innocent children, disabled, and elderly in it's care?  As long as there are people trying I believe it does, and if I believe it does, it's not hard to believe that God believes it does.  If He saves the children this time, the human race will always expect Him to bail us out and never learn how to get it right. 


Please don't scratch out my eyes.  ;D
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #167 on: March 26, 2013, 03:48:00 PM »
I understand science just fine, that is why evolution does not make sense to me.  If we came from apes the apes would be gone, they are humans now. How could an explosion know the earth would need an atmosphere to protect it from radiation off the sun?  That takes intelligence.  The structure of the smallest creature, intelligence.  Reproduction; intelligence.  Photosynthesis; again intelligence.  I can't believe people out there believe that stuff.  The difference between you and I is that I don't have to insult you to share my beliefs and that is because God guides my spirit not man.  This kind heart comes from God and nowhere else.

The bold part contradicts the rest of the paragraph. If you actually understood science, you wouldn't have spouted so much BS.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #168 on: March 26, 2013, 04:23:12 PM »



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Were you worried about your soul? Why, or why not?

I felt there was something missing in my life, but no I wasn't worried about my soul. I was atheist remember?  It's hard to explain but I will try.  It was like most of you here I couldn't serve a God that wouldn't Love me the way I am, and up until then that is all I heard, your an abomination.  Instead of just taking the masses word for that I decided to see if I could find it in the bible for myself.  What I found is not hate but Love and 1000's of years misunderstanding God.

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How did he speak to you? Big booming god voice? Nope, I bet you heard it in your head, no? See, many theists claim this, but the voices are always inside their head. But, there are many thoughts in many people's heads. And, we find it odd that we atheists never hear those voices claiming to be a god, telling us we're so loved by his omnimax. I wonder why that is.

You can not here something you don't believe in.

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been 12 years since then, and God has revealed so much to me I feel obligated to share.

Like what? What has been revealed?

There is a lot but the most important thing revealed to me is that the Christians got it bad wrong.

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I know Christians would just laugh at me where as I thought I might get some support from here.  Not support on the existence of God but maybe a little credit for doing things my own way.

If you're doing things your own way, what credit is your god? You will get support, such that it is, here for doing things your own way. And that's all you've ever done is do things your own way. There are no gods necessary.

Yes God gets the credit , I would still be that hopeless teenager that just wished her life away had God not saved me.  See that's what I keep trying to share with you is God's love, I don't want it all to myself, I have no claim on God, I am His.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #169 on: March 26, 2013, 04:32:56 PM »
No Screw that's where you're wrong. I did provide evidence of real situations that not only happen to me, but obviously you know they happen to you as well, because you can't give me one instance in your life where you willed yourself to believe or love and you can't list on here the proof of a psychologist or anyone else that had a similar occasion where they believed in something or loved something because they simply willed it into being. Name something one thing to prove your point, I named a few to prove mine. ( love for my wife and kids ( uncontrolled), belief in God or tooth fairy( uncontrolled), can't will or control any of those into real belief or love. It's just there or not, nothing I do or say can control those. And what the psychologists are saying, did they tell you that in a link. Ok then what's the difference in them telling you that, and a preacher telling you there's a God. Either way they can't prove it unless they give you an example of it happening to them. I'm telling you not to prove me wrong, but prove yourself right by listing something someone, including yourself, has willed themselves into believing or a time when you didn't love something, but you forced yourself to truly love with all your heart by forcing yourself to love it. Maybe your wife, or your dad, anything or anybody. Then I will believe you even though I know it's not possible for me. I just would like to know if it is possible for others, but I will only believe you if you tell me what it was. I'm not like you I can take your word on some things, just like if you told me you had brown eyes, I would believe you. And you'd probably believe me if I told you I had 2 arms. But why can't you believe me over some psychologist that's never been in my thoughts, that I can't control what I believe or love????

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #170 on: March 26, 2013, 04:40:57 PM »
By the way affecting attitudes or feelings by taking actions is not what Im talking about. And even to that I didn't see the proof. Maybe that was the link you were talkin about. I'm talking about affecting love or beliefs. Which again for the 3rd time are not the same. Attitudes and feelings are behaviors and actions that we take that can be faked!! True love and beliefs can not. Really???? Back to square 1 with you again after you just got saying earlier you agree with the whole love and belief thing?? Around and around you go it never stops!!!

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #171 on: March 26, 2013, 04:51:55 PM »
I can have a good attitude and smile and laugh while some dudes punching me in the face, or I can behave totally righteous for 40 years in fear of hell fire!even if the hell fire may not be true I didn't know for sure. What I can't do is love a God with all my heart and mind if I don't Love him. And I can't believe in a God with all my heart and mind if I've been presented with too much conflicting facts! It can't be done no matter how hard I try!!! End of story! At least I can't, because I tried. You don't have to believe me just try it for yourself. I can sit here and wish my penis to grow 10 " in 10 seconds. Will it happen, no! But I bet you don't have a problem believing that one even without a psychologist. Maybe you've tried it and that's only reason you believe it can't happen. Well then to that I say try wishing yourself in love or a belief.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 04:55:13 PM by Cutdogg »

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #172 on: March 26, 2013, 06:39:07 PM »
I can give personal examples where my emotions were influenced by my actions and willpower.  There have been (many) times that I have been extremely angry about something, but instead of acting on the emotion, I stopped myself and calmed down by force of will and mental discipline.  There have been other times where I have made myself angry, intentionally (though I stopped short of a furious outburst).  I find the proposition that other emotions are fundamentally different than this to be dubious, to say the least.

A lot of things are possible with discipline and determination.  Indeed, they're really what make most things doable.

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #173 on: March 26, 2013, 10:55:17 PM »
No Screw that's where you're wrong. I did provide evidence of real situations that not only happen to me, but obviously you know they happen to you as well, because you can't give me one instance in your life where you willed yourself to believe or love and you can't list on here the proof of a psychologist or anyone else that had a similar occasion where they believed in something or loved something because they simply willed it into being. Name something one thing to prove your point, I named a few to prove mine. ( love for my wife and kids ( uncontrolled), belief in God or tooth fairy( uncontrolled), can't will or control any of those into real belief or love.

Bad news, cutdogg. Your interpretation of your own experiences, sans external confirmation, does not qualify as truth. It qualifies as your truth for you, perhaps, but that which you think is true and that which is actually true may not be the same. To make matters worse, you are the second person to show up here in recent weeks and claim that since it happened to you, and you interpreted it thusly, that your say on the matter is both accurate and authoritative. So as it happens, our patience for self-proclaimed truthers is a little low these days.

Your experiences regarding love and belief are not automatically universal. Nor are you interpretations regarding the specifics of what happened to you necessarily accurate. For instance, if you are relying on your memory in these cases, you are already in trouble, because there is no such thing as an accurate one (memory, that is). Nothing you remember about anything in your past (and this holds true for all of us) is accurate enough to match actual events. To make matters worse, each time you remember something, what you actually are remembering is the last time you remembered it, not the actual event, and you are not remembering that last time accurately either. So each time to think that you are accessing an accurate memory, you are distorting it even further.

Being a know-it-all is impossible, because none of us have enough information. So you might lighten up a little.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.