Author Topic: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself  (Read 18870 times)

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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #116 on: March 24, 2013, 12:49:41 PM »
Hi Gawd,

Let me start by saying that I am certainly not evil.  I was not trying to justify starving children, the comment I made was in reference to"some"comfort.  It had absolutely nothing to do with justification.

I dont know you, but I dont think you are evil. From my experiences with people throughout life I think people in general are good. Unfortunately, what I was taught in church was exactly the opposite; people are born evil and can do no better. I think its a very unfortunate teaching and probably is the gateway for people to do more evil, after all if you can do no better without supernatural help why even try?

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I think if it gets to the point that God has to intervene the consequences for the rest of us could very well be mighty grim. Wouldn't it be better for all of us, I mean every single person on this planet, the whole human race if we stood together and demand change in the politics that have lead to poverty. There is a man by the name of Dr. Richard Wolfe, an economist that has some good ideas about how to put an end to poverty, and the only way we will do that is together.

Why? Why would it be grim if this god were to feed starving children? Of course it would be good if everyone on the planet stood together to solve problems, as we both know (your whole post suggests it) thats THE ONLY way things will get done. I'm open to all ideas that end suffering. The problem, theologically, with this is you claim to have a way, in god, but he simply refuses to do anything. So his existence, even to you, is no different from his non-existence.

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The Christians I know say the same thing, God knows everything before it happens.  They also say we are not puppets on a string.  It is like much of the things they say, a contradiction.  One thing I've learned on my "vision quest" is that to know God you must rely on History and Science. You have to distinguish the rhetoric from the truth.  For example, I was watching two men on a Christian broadcast channel a couple of days ago, and they actually said that God promotes capitalism, I do not agree. I would not have known this except that I've done "my own" homework. Most importantly you have to have an open mind and heart. See to me, God understands why atheist are atheist and eternal torture is not on God's mind at all, AT ALL.  Right now it just takes 10 preachers to lead 300 people the wrong way. There are 10's of 1000's of preachers out there! You are better off to be an atheist than a brainwashed sheep of a sheep. God's love is not uneven though. He loves those brainwashed sheep and the misguided sheep that lead them.

Very astute. Yes god knowing everything before it happens would make us meat puppets because there would be no way to change what he knows from before we were even born. They are very much incompatible ideas. However, your particular version of god that doesnt know everything isnt the god of the bible and of christianity then, because that god is all knowing. And I agree, you must rely on history and science because its all we have. History shows us people have a tradition of imagining gods to answer the unknown and science has shown that the questions those gods used to answer no longer need gods to answer them. What questions are you attempting to answer with your version of god?

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God doesn't want to destroy us.  He wants us to learn from our mistakes.  There is a saying be careful what you ask God for.  Do you really need God to feed the children or should we come together and stand up against the politics that create poverty?  History of man according to the Bible tells us when God intervenes people die.  Could you handle that decision? Let's say you have 5 children.  Could you put the 2 oldest of them to death for letting the 3 youngest go hungry while you left them in their care?  Man's greed is the problem here people and there is something "WE" can do about that!

I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion because in the bible, god certainly does want to destroy people who dont crumble to his will, whatever that may be. So if you can direct me to the book that describes the god youre referring to it'd be helpful to understand your positions a little bit more. You see, the god of the bible is all powerful, and you seem to suggest that he is being pushed against his will to destroy people. That would mean he is not all powerful if we people can force him to do something.

Learning from mistakes is human nature, how do you think we got this far? You dont continue to exist if you keep walking into lions dend or if you keep building your hut where elephants like to roam. Why should people who believe in god be careful what they ask for? You have already affirmed that god doesnt interact in the world, and that it would be grim if he did because thats when people die. I find it interesting that to you god will intervene to kill people but not help people live. Its like you know this god concept is evil, but cant free yourself from his chains of slavery.

As a parent to one little girl, and uncle to two littler girls I would NEVER leave them in the hands of people who couldnt take care of them because I love them. Furthermore, if I were omni-max and I knew if I left them with someone who would let them starve I wouldnt leave them with that person, and if I did then I would be the guilty party for sending them to their death. I would be evil.

Yes, man's greed is definitely the problem. No god needed for the problem, and as you have already stated, the only solution is man. So what exactly does your god do/solve/answer?

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #117 on: March 24, 2013, 01:25:19 PM »
Junebug

The issue isn't if humans should or could do better. We have to or else. But thinking that there is a god watching (and doing zip) adds nothing to the equation. Too many of your believing brethren think that their god will help them through these tough times. So if he is real and just sitting back and watching, then the problems are made worse by all those believers who are spending most of their time praying to him rather than acting. He is not a neutral force, but rather a negative one. And if he isn't real, and a bunch of people are spending their time worshipping him rather than acting, then those people are a negative force.

Certainly humans have to solve these problems. But they have been caused by our naturally evolved and well documented human tendency to create a few power-tripping dicks. And by our misunderstandings and/or refusal to understand nature. And by ignorance of all sorts, including the pretense of religion. Having Arabs and christians at each others throats for over non-existent variations on the god theme isn't helping matters in any way. For that matter, having christians at each others throats, and arabs at each others throats isn't doing any good either.

We apparently evolved to survive, not to be sweet. However we have reached a point in human history where it is theoretically possible for most everyone to thrive despite the moral weaknesses in our genetic code. But we have to approach the problems with real tools, not made up stuff that only complicates the situation. And it is not only religious "truths" that we need to banish, but too similar attitudes towards some economic and social theories that were long ago shown to be ineffective or, worse yet, harmful.

Your heart is in the right place, but your backstory needs a little work. It is perfectly possible to be a good person without having to think that the Jesus story is the greatest sacrifice ever made. He was just going back home. This one here is ours and we need to start cleaning it up for the right reasons, not imaginary ones.

I'll be reading up on what the good Dr. Wolfe has suggested. Since he has been on Bill Moyers show, and well received there, I am more than willing to give him a look see. But no one idea, no one suggestion, is going to fix everything. It will take a combination of efforts in many arenas to solve the issues of our time. And the abandonment of all that is useless; all that has proven to be of no value. And that includes religion.

Here is Dr. Wolfe's Web site if anyone is interested.
http://rdwolff.com

P.S. You don't need to be surprised when an atheist uses the term evil. Your devil can be eliminated from the concept without taking away the legitimacy of the concept. We need words for all extremes so that we can describe the current human condition. The men who gave the 15 year old rape victim in The Maldives 100 lashes yesterday are evil. The word is just too handy to remove simply because the concept of the devil has been extirpated from some of our minds.
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Offline shnozzola

Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #118 on: March 24, 2013, 02:40:57 PM »
  Come on now!  The way I see it what you people want is Armageddon.  Denying God's existence is not what needs to be done for those kids.  Don't you see that by not standing together being divided by beliefs gets us nowhere.  Tolerance of greed is the responsibility of us all. If Every person out there that makes less than 2 million dollars a year could simply stand together against the billion dollar corps. that want all the money.

Hi Junebug,
   As most theists, you are so blinded defending your belief in god, you do not read atheists correctly.  Why would you think an atheist wants Armageddon?  That's what you and the bible predict.  I am pretty sure the only end will be if we destroy ourselves through wars, and if you read post after post at WWGHA you will see that is exactly the religious  perversion of the rules of society we are against.  Why do theists think atheists do not understand love?  Why do theists think atheists do not understand the wisdom in many religions?

 It is only the fact that we, after more careful consideration than you can imagine, have rejected the idea that there is some of being that floats around the universe and has control over something.  Junebug, think hard about your definition of god and what he or she or it must be like to fit into your idea of a god.  That will be your beliefs undoing right there.

   Funny how you may think your are here to help us, while we feel we can help you.  Help you remove the baggage from your life and view all people the same - all people as responsible for the future of humanity, not some sort of puppets that god had absolute control over all along.  How absurd you will look back on the logic of your belief once you become free of it.  Like you are saying to us - Take Care, and good luck in your search for truth.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 02:45:10 PM by shnozzola »
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #119 on: March 24, 2013, 05:49:59 PM »

What did the people do after witnessing the parting of the red sea? I believe while in the wilderness they lost faith even after witnessing the power of God.  Time after time in the bible we see when God interferes things are good for a while and then things go right back to crap.  Abraham's people got put right back into being overthrown by Rome, because they forgot to stay close to God.  Not all of them did, but the ones that were given power did.  They cared more about their earthly stature than their relationship to God.  This created hardship on the people.  That is where we are right now.  The people that have been given the power abuse it for their own indulgence and do not care if people suffer because of it.  I say the only way for God to fix us is to leave us be. 

So whenever god intervenes in the bible, that was a mistake on his part?  In each and every cases, he should've left well enough alone?


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Do you really think God's way of saving starving children would be just to make them some food. 


You make this sound like a bad thing.


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That he wouldn't bother scorning the rest of us for letting it happen? 


Why not do both?  Feed starving children, and yell at the rest of us for allowing them to starve.



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Tolerance of greed is the responsibility of us all. If Every person out there that makes less than 2 million dollars a year could simply stand together against the billion dollar corps. that want all the money.  I wish they had it so there would be none left to spend and they would have to close their doors.  The gentleman I referred to earlier, Dr. Richard Wolfe, I don't know what his religion is but he knows his economics.  He has a website and I encourage all those in favor of ending poverty to check him out.  He thinks it's time to consider an alternative to capitalism and He makes some very good points.  Take Care.

Your point here is that we need to look out for each other.  That's fine, but where does god fit into all this?  He appears not to.  If we're suppose to depend on each other, and not rely on a god that cannot/should not intervene on our behalf, then why worship him at all?  Why pray?  It almost seems like you're suggesting that we shouldn't bother with this god guy at all.  I think on some level, you're aware that your god behaves the exact same way he would if he were non-existence.
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #120 on: March 24, 2013, 10:26:36 PM »
Well I guess you told me.  Never thought believing in God made me evil.  Interesting concept.  I am not going to be angry with you for insulting me to the core, but instead I will be understanding.

I don't care if it offends you.  Really, I don't.  Perhaps if you're offended by it, you'll take it more seriously.  I don't know.  Different approaches work on different people.  In the end, I'd rather you seriously consider the fact that worshiping a being that has the power to stop immense amounts of suffering and does nothing with it, is inherently bad.  Half the problem with Christians is that they lead with their emotions instead of their brains.  They don't know how to temper their emotions with reason and logic.  They think with their gut and that gets them in trouble. 

Yes you could look at it that way, but my path has revealed a much different conclusion.  Through my faith I will believe there is a purpose for your revelation as well.  I believe that God wants us to take care of each other, not do it for us. I don't believe it is an easy thing for God to do. 

It's fine to believe that, but can you prove it?  If I said I had faith in the ability of the unicorn in my garage to keep my tires from going flat, what would you think of me?  I feel the same way about someone who says 'through my faith I believe there is a purpose for your revelation'.  Your faith is absolutely useless.  Just as you would say mine is with the unicorn in my garage. 

Why is it okay for you not to believe the norm, but for me not to, I am dumb. 
Arguments that invoke the beliefs of the masses are fallacious and should not weigh in on the discussion.  A long time ago, most people believed the world was flat, that demons caused disease, that lightning was divine anger, etc.  The masses are often very, very wrong.  You, personally, are probably not dumb.  But your belief in the Christian God is dumb.  It doesn't matter that you share that problem with lots and lots of people.  You all could really be wrong.  And I'm quite sure you are. 

We were both handed the same information and got opposite conclusions. 
No, I doubt that.  You were handed one side of a very 2 sided argument and the very core of that argument is what you've held to.  I was handed one side (as you) and looked at the other side myself in an honest attempt at learning what the truth was.  How much atheist literature have you read, Junebug?  How much do you know about how the bible came to be?  How much do you know about the authors?  How much do you know about the historians during the time of Jesus?  How many books have you read about the other gospels that didn't make it into the cannon? 

I've read the bible.  I've visited countless religious websites.  I've read 4 different apologetics books and somewhere near 10 books on atheism.  I've been on this website for several years now, listening to people like you present argument after horrible argument and there is only one possible conclusion.  The Christian God isn't real.  Can you say you've honestly given the other side a fair shot?  I doubt you can.   

How did I get to a different conclusion than you? Probably because the information might be the same but we are on a different path.
My path uses reason, yours uses faith.  In every other area of your life, which of those 2, do you think, is more likely to lead to truth?  Now explain to me why it's different with religion.

I was searching for God and you were searching for the non-existence of God. 
Quick little story for you Junebug. 

I work as a physical therapist.  When I evaluate a patient, I start with the diagnosis that the doctor sends me from his office in the form of a prescription.  On it, he or she will usually write something to the effect of "lumbar strain" or "rotator cuff impingement".  Now, as a therapist, I can either keep the doctors diagnosis in mind during my evaluation, or I can push it to the back and find what's really going on with them.  Which, do you think, is a better tactic for me to use if I really want to help the patient?  Looking for what's ACTUALLY there, or just looking to confirm that lumbar strain, or rotator cuff impingement that the doctor told me was there?  The answer is the first one.  You can't bias yourself with someone elses diagnosis when you evaluate a patient, else you seriously run the risk of missing something. 

Now, how does that apply to our discussion?  You said that you looked for God.  That's the wrong way to go about it.  You found God because people told you that God is there, much like the doctor tells me what they think is there with their diagnosis.  In your own searching, you never allowed yourself, nor have you since, put up for discussion the most rudimentary part of your entire faith... the notion that God even exists in the first place.  I looked for truth, and ignored what other people told me was there.  In that, I allowed myself to address that very first question that you never allowed yourself to ask.  That's the difference.

I wasn't searching for the non-existence of God.  I don't even know what the hell that means.  I wanted to know whether God existed or didn't exist, and I listened to both sides intently, then made my conclusion. 

We both found what we were looking for. 
You found God because you were looking for God.  I found the truth because I wasn't looking to confirm what I'd been told.  I was looking for truth. 

We were both comforted by what we found is the only common link between our journeys.

I live in the bible belt.  Do you really think its comfortable to be an atheist here?  If I were looking for comfort, I'd be a sheep like the rest of you.  My comfort lies in knowing I gave an equal ear to both sides before making my decision. 

I still don't see how believing how God doing nothing is what is best for the whole human race is evil.
Because you don't really believe that.  You don't.  How do I know that?  Simple.  If God came down, right now, and fed 30,000 starving children and brought them all back to good health, would you think of that as a good thing or a bad thing?  If you have a shred of decency, you'd think it was a good thing.  You know you'd think it was good.  You KNOW it.  What you are trying to say, however, is that if God did that, HELPING the children would actually be doing something that would NOT be in the interest of the whole human race, and you'd be forced to condemn the action.  You said God doing nothing is what's best for the human race, so that means God helping the human race would be awful.  Do you really, really believe that?  No, you don't.

Truth be told, helping out might not be in the best interest of humanity in every case, but childhood starvation?  Good luck with that one. 

So I guess I shouldn't have cut my son off from my support when he got hooked on pills. 
If your son was starving to death, would you feed him, or would you let him die?  God lets them die. 

If God fixed our problems it would be no different.
Bullshit. If God got your son of pills with the snap of his fingers, would you be angry with him for not allowing your son to struggle with it?  What of those who continue to take the pills and DIE from them? That happens all the time!  Is it really better for God to NOT step in and help those people that he knows are going to die? 

It's like you have this mantra running through your mind... God is good, God is good, God is good, anything that contradicts that is false, or just a mystery... STOP doing that.  Use your head.  It is ALRIGHT to admit that if God helped your son, it would be a good thing.  It is ALRIGHT to admit that if God helped starving children, that would be a good thing.  It is also, ALRIGHT to admit that because he doesn't, he's either not interested in helping, not powerful enough to do it, or better yet, that he's not actually there in the first place.   

We would never be on our own to earn and deserve the promise of Heaven. 
And what of those who die of starvation before they achieve the rightful age at which they can earn such a promise?  What of the babies who die from AIDS every day? 

And can you prove that heaven exists?  No?  Then it's just a claim.  One that needs to be analyzed for truth versus rhetoric.  Heaven might not exist. 

See we just see the small, God sees the bigger picture. 

Baseless assertion.

Answer the question... IF God wasn't real, would that explain why God doesn't help starving children?  PLEASE answer that.

Oh it's okay to make lots and lots of money while others starve because God will feed those children.

I can't help but wonder what goes through your mind when you say stuff like this.  Would you really be all that upset with God if he came down and fed the children?  It sounds like you would be upset by it.  Is that the person you really are? 

I know it's hard to understand but it is not evil.

I'm sorry, but if God was real, and he came down and fed all the starving children, I'd be happy about it.  You'd think it was bad for the world if God did that. Your religion has done that to you.  It sounds pretty evil to me.

And yet, in the same breath, you say you want people to feed the hungry children instead, as if it would be a good thing.  Why is it good if people do it but bad if God does it? Because we learn something? Guess what, Junebug.  We haven't learned anything from it.  Kids are still dying.  They've been dying for centuries. If you are basing the entire process of 'earning the promise of heaven' on humanity's ability to feed the poor, then we're all going to hell.  It seems like people, as a whole, aren't getting what you think they should get.  But in the end, whether God helps or people help, the children aren't starving anymore, right?  Are you seriously going to sit there and tell me that the deaths of millions of children every year is the wages we have to pay to... consistently fail at taking care of ourselves? 

In truth, this whole thing is nothing more than you trying to deflect the focus away from God's ineptitude and capriciousness and onto humanity, but you should stop trying to do that and really look at what we're saying.   

I am even surprised to hear an atheist use the word evil, without God is there good and evil?

Good and evil are adjectives used to describe an individual's perceptions of actions, deeds, etc.  Good as a 'thing' does not exist, and neither does 'evil'.  But I can describe actions as good or evil. 

My thoughts, without a God,it is simply human nature and I would not be good or evil I would just be doing what comes natural and have no responsibility for my thoughts or my actions.
It's not the wording I would use, but it's close enough.  I would say the first part of your sentence is correct, but saying you have no responsibility over your thoughts and actions is debatable.  And it gets into the discussion of free will, which... if I were you... I'd stay clear of. 

People are not inherently good or evil.  Their actions can be good or evil as described by other people's perceptions of those actions.  Even the most horrible people in the world did some good things too.  So calling them 'evil' to describe them as a whole is wrong.

Why do you think your disapproval of what you've said changes anything about the truth of it?  I disapprove of the fact that eating ice cream makes me fat, but you don't see me eating it anyway in hopes that I'll get thin.  The truth doesn't care what I think; nor does it care what you think. 

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #121 on: March 25, 2013, 06:38:45 AM »
Do you really think God's way of saving starving children would be just to make them some food. 


Why jump straight to magical food?  Why not just tweak the clouds and make it rain some more to allow sufficient crops to grow?  Why not alter the composition of the soil so that more nutrients are held?  I can think of dozens of little "tweaks" that an omnipotent god could make that would allow the starving to help themselves - you know, like he apparently wants them to.  But all the time he doesn't, thousands suffer and die on a daily basis while god twiddles his thumbs and wishes real hard that we'd help them out just that little bit more.

So I guess I shouldn't have cut my son off from my support when he got hooked on pills.  The alternative of enabling was a better choice?  If God fixed our problems it would be no different.

Out of interest, when your son was hooked on pain pills (and I wonder how THAT happened?  God's will?), did you expect other people, who didn't know him, to help him out?  I'm glad it all worked out for you....but supposeing it hadn't?  Suppose you'd cut him off - and he'd taken to mugging people to get money to buy pills for himself.  Would you have continued with the "doing nothing" approach?  Washed your hands of him and kept your fingers crossed that someone else would sort him out?  Or would you, as a loving parent, have not just "cut him off", period, but done everything within your power to help him?

We would never be on our own to earn and deserve the promise of Heaven.

Interesting.  You've said before that you are convinced there is no "negative afterlife" - no hell.  What exactly then - in your opinion - happens to those people who do not "earn Heaven"?  And perhaps more importantly, what evidence do you have for your opinion?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline screwtape

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #122 on: March 25, 2013, 08:56:51 AM »
God doesn't want to destroy us.  He wants us to learn from our mistakes.

What makes you say that?  In what way does yhwh help us learn?

History of man according to the Bible tells us when God intervenes people die.

That is not a ringing endorsement for yhwh.  The guy is supposed to be omnipotent.  Why can he not intervene without killing people.  I mean, shit, they train dogs these days without beating them, the train kids these days without spanking them.  Why is it not possible for a being that can literally do anything to intervene on our behalf without killing people?



That is why faith is rewarded because God knows it's hard to believe in what you can not see, hear, or comprehend.

Why is believing in something without evidence a good thing?  Why should that be rewarded?  Is faith in the Loch Ness Monster good?



The bible is clear on what God wants from us. To LOVE Him and to LOVE each other.

Actually, no, the bible is not all that clear.  I'm guessing you skipped over the OT altogether, otherwise you would not have said that.  In the OT there is no mention of loving yhwh.  It is only about obeying yhwh. 

Eve and her slow witted mate were not thrown out of Eden and given death sentences because they failed to love yhwh.  They were punished because they did not obey.

yhwh's relationship with the hebrews is strictly contractual.  They have a quid pro quo agreement whereby the hebrews chop of part of their penises off and follow certain rules (ostensibly from yhwh) and in exchange yhwh will make them prosper.  yhwh breaks this agreement on at least one occasion (Job) without penalty yet punishes the hebrews severely for certain infractions (idolatry, mainly).  Love does not come into it until very late in the game.  And in that case, it is just silly.

As for loving each other, it depends whom you mean by "each other".  Mainly the hebrews killed "others" and at yhwh's direction no less.  "Love thy neighbor" in practice was translated as "love thy neighbor, as long as he's jewish".  Pretty much all the commandments were translated that way.  "thou shalt not kill...other jews"  "thou shalt not steal another jew's wife...  but the goys' you shall take as sex slaves" etc. 

No.  There is no consistent message of love in the bible.


edit - fixed for clarification
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 12:43:58 PM by screwtape »
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #123 on: March 25, 2013, 11:49:05 AM »
Concerning this "god cannot/should not provide for us" idea... how does that work out for heaven?  Supposely, god will be making sure our afterlife is blissful and suffering-free.  Why is it OK for god to intervene in the hereafter, but not the here and now?

Funny how we're not suppose to count on god helping us, but it's ok to imagine a blissful place where he does provides for us...
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Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #124 on: March 25, 2013, 02:08:19 PM »
Actually Screwtape, OT does mention you should love God, not just obey. It's the First Commandment I believe. Thou shalt love The Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul. Get it right so your argument can't be falsely debated. However, the rest of argument right on! And that brings up another topic I'd like a Christian to justify. How are we to be commanded to love him if he didn't give us the ability to pick and choose what we love. Humans can only love what they love, there is no choice in the matter. Think of something you love or hate and tell yourself, Im gonna stop loving my wife today, or Im gonna stop hating child rapists. You may tell yourself that but if there's a God, he knows what you truly love. Same thing works for your belief system. Try it!! If someone put a gun to your child's head and told you to believe Santa Claus was flying to your house to bring presents this year or he was shooting your kid, you'd tell him you believe, but would you in your heart. And again, if God is real, he knows you're lying. Well that's what God is doing to us with the salvation theory of the Bible. He has the gun, (hell), but has a lie detector(all knowing), then expects us to just say we believe and mean it in our hearts when we can't control what we believe. We all believe what we believe because of certain events and circumstances in our life. Once I realized that fact, I started seeing all of the other contradictions and impossibilities of being a Christian and let it go after 40 years. Sure, it sucked because now I know this life is most likely all I'll ever get, but I also am not plagued with false hopes and millions of questions every day as to why things happen in my life.

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #125 on: March 25, 2013, 02:25:43 PM »
Also wanna say I feel better not having to justify every Bible contradiction in my head with some other believers rendition of what it really means. Then only to come back to a verse later and see that that doesn't make sense! Talk about Hell! They always taught me the Bible brings you closer to God, not further away. The Bible also says that we're predetermined who's going to believe or not, Paul mentions it in New Testament. So maybe that's why I don't believe anymore, I was created by God so he could one day throw me in hell for eternity for not being created by him to believe in him. Then Paul also said in another verse that once were saved were sealed until the day of redemption. And that Christ bought our price by dying on the cross.Many Christians say this too that once we receive our free gift of salvation, God doesn't take it back. Well I wonder if they ever met someone like me before they wrote that. Because I knew I was a hardcore believer and knew I was going to heaven in my mind because I confessed sins, believed in Jesus as savior, and even changed my life (refrained from sins best I could). Everything you need to do to be a Christian. But now I don't believe and just want to live my life freely, I don't rape, kill, or steal mind you. I still behave morally to most. I mean am I going to go down as the first person in heaven that died as a non-believer. If not then the Bible lies, if so then the Bible lies. See what Im getting at

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #126 on: March 25, 2013, 02:32:21 PM »
Actually Screwtape, OT does mention you should love God, not just obey. It's the First Commandment I believe. Thou shalt love The Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul. Get it right so your argument can't be falsely debated.

That's not how commandment goes at all.  It's "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Exodus 20) or if we go with the Exodus 34 version, it's "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God".  Either way, nothing about love, but plenty about obeying.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #127 on: March 25, 2013, 02:38:47 PM »
Actually Screwtape, OT does mention you should love God, not just obey. It's the First Commandment I believe. Thou shalt love The Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul. Get it right so your argument can't be falsely debated.

That's not how commandment goes at all.  It's "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Exodus 20) or if we go with the Exodus 34 version, it's "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God".  Either way, nothing about love, but plenty about obeying.

Right.  Cutdogg, the commandment you're thinking of is from the New Testament, not the Old.  Matthew 22:37-38.
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Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #128 on: March 25, 2013, 03:50:36 PM »
Ok how correct you are it is in New Testament. But read Exodus 20 verse 6 and that says how important it is to love God. Either way though, I still don't see how you could be judged for not loving anything cuz there's no freedom of choice to do so. At least I know I personally can't control what I love or hate. But the Bible doesn't say Im exempt for that

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #129 on: March 25, 2013, 04:18:10 PM »
I love sex and weed, but if there was a way I could control myself to hate sex and weed, I would do it
I would wish it or pray it into existence. Why? Because I'm never gonna get enough women to have the amount of sex I desire. And smoking weed is illegal and I may get in trouble. I'd turn it off in a heartbeat. I much would rather love and believe in God any day!! But I tried and prayed for 40 years and that love, and now that belief, isn't there. So I'm a living, breathing, proof for anyone who needs it, that love and beliefs are not something we can control, but are learned through experience and our environment. Therefore, proving that the people who wrote the Bible weren't educated enough in Psychology yet to know any better. And most people today dont even realize you cant control it, so imagine how dumb they were back then. Christians favorite line,"all you have to do is believe in him ....." yeah, but thats the problem, no control over that, like the Bible says ...." easier for a camel to pass through eye of needle" ......than to believe something you dont! Thanks, this ones free
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 04:23:38 PM by Cutdogg »

Offline screwtape

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #130 on: March 26, 2013, 07:24:05 AM »
Actually Screwtape, OT does mention you should love God, not just obey. It's the First Commandment I believe. Thou shalt love The Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

That is Mark 12:30.  A Gospel.  Part of the NT. 

But let's take a look.

Exodus 20:3 - you shall have no other gods before me.

Nope, not there. (And note, it implicitly states there are other gods) The closest it gets is here:

Exodus 20:5-6  You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,  but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

It mentions love, sorta, but it is also in the context of extortion.  "reject me and I'll fuck up your family for the next four generations."  It is more about obedience than love.  So, I would say my point stands. 

But that is not the only set of commandments.  Let us search further.  There is another batch of them a few chapters later.

Exodus 34:14 - you shall worship no other god, because the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. 

They just get weirder after that.  But nothing that says the relationship between yhwh and man is one of love.  Though, it does say explicitly to not make treaties or "covenants" with the locals, because they worship other gods, supporting my point about "loving each other".

And there is another batch of commandments in Deut.  They are identical to the ones in Ex20:3.

So no.  It is not a loving relationship in the OT.  As I said before, that whole idea does not come until later in the development of monotheism.


Get it right so your argument can't be falsely debated.

Mmm-hmm.

Think of something you love or hate and tell yourself, Im gonna stop loving my wife today, or Im gonna stop hating child rapists.

I do not entirely agree. I think we can affect our attitudes toward people.  Psychologists have shown that attitudes follow behaviors.  It is a matter of consistency for the brain.  So if you take on loving behaviors - be considerate, patient, do nice things for someone - then your attitude will follow.

If someone put a gun to your child's head and told you to believe Santa Claus was flying to your house

I agree, however, I generally challenge my opponents to try to believe in the tooth faerie for a couple of weeks.  To my knowledge, they have never taken me up on it.

 
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 07:26:16 AM by screwtape »
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Offline Tonus

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #131 on: March 26, 2013, 07:51:03 AM »
Exodus 20:5-6  You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,  but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

It's worth noting that many Christians point to the god of the Bible as having unconditional love, but here we see the god of the OT: no one's love is unconditional.  God will love you if you love him first, and you are coerced into loving him on a very basic system of punishment vs reward.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #132 on: March 26, 2013, 08:02:16 AM »
Quote
I dont know you, but I dont think you are evil. From my experiences with people throughout life I think people in general are good. Unfortunately, what I was taught in church was exactly the opposite; people are born evil and can do no better. I think its a very unfortunate teaching and probably is the gateway for people to do more evil, after all if you can do no better without supernatural help why even try?


Why? Why would it be grim if this god were to feed starving children? Of course it would be good if everyone on the planet stood together to solve problems, as we both know (your whole post suggests it) thats THE ONLY way things will get done. I'm open to all ideas that end suffering. The problem, theologically, with this is you claim to have a way, in god, but he simply refuses to do anything. So his existence, even to you, is no different from his non-existence.


Very astute. Yes god knowing everything before it happens would make us meat puppets because there would be no way to change what he knows from before we were even born. They are very much incompatible ideas. However, your particular version of god that doesnt know everything isnt the god of the bible and of christianity then, because that god is all knowing. And I agree, you must rely on history and science because its all we have. History shows us people have a tradition of imagining gods to answer the unknown and science has shown that the questions those gods used to answer no longer need gods to answer them. What questions are you attempting to answer with your version of god?


I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion because in the bible, god certainly does want to destroy people who dont crumble to his will, whatever that may be. So if you can direct me to the book that describes the god youre referring to it'd be helpful to understand your positions a little bit more. You see, the god of the bible is all powerful, and you seem to suggest that he is being pushed against his will to destroy people. That would mean he is not all powerful if we people can force him to do something.

Learning from mistakes is human nature, how do you think we got this far? You dont continue to exist if you keep walking into lions dend or if you keep building your hut where elephants like to roam. Why should people who believe in god be careful what they ask for? You have already affirmed that god doesnt interact in the world, and that it would be grim if he did because thats when people die. I find it interesting that to you god will intervene to kill people but not help people live. Its like you know this god concept is evil, but cant free yourself from his chains of slavery.

As a parent to one little girl, and uncle to two littler girls I would NEVER leave them in the hands of people who couldnt take care of them because I love them. Furthermore, if I were omni-max and I knew if I left them with someone who would let them starve I wouldnt leave them with that person, and if I did then I would be the guilty party for sending them to their death. I would be evil.

Yes, man's greed is definitely the problem. No god needed for the problem, and as you have already stated, the only solution is man. So what exactly does your god do/solve/answer?

Good morning Gawd,

Why would God saving children be grim?  Because I don't think God will just give those children food and ascend back into the clouds,  I believe there would be consequences to the rest of us for letting it happen.  Dark, grim consequences.  See God loves us all.  Even the people that are to blame for poverty, so this must be an agonizing decision God makes everyday.

My beliefs are not solely dependent on the bible.  I have studied Wicca, Buddhism, paganism, and Christianity.  I do not believe that the bible is the undisputed word of God.  I don't have to. I still receive my blessings and He still loves me! When you read it as such it makes a lot more sense.

I believe in God because I can not wrap my mind around the evolution theory.  How all this could come to existence without any form of intelligence is uncomprehending to me. I don't have to, just like you don't have to.  Once I had that, the rest just followed.  I could not be a Christian because I am a Lesbian, so I was forced to find my own way to God, which I'm so glad I did or else I would be in the same boat with the rest of the brainwashed sheep following false doctrine.

As far as me stating God doesn't help, I believe He does what He can without doing it for us.  God works through us, so if we don't work, God don't work and God is certainly working through a lot of people, including the Gates.  Where do you think our conscience comes from.  It is the spirit of God and the temptations of greed and violence.  What makes a person chose the good instead of the bad? Because the spirit of the person knows if they chose the bad their spirit will suffer more than their flesh.  Our spirit leaves our bodies and goes somewhere.  I believe that somewhere is with God, rewarded for being good, and punished appropriately for being bad.  This is where the mix comes in.  See I won't worship a God or anything else that claims to torture good people the same as murderers and child molesters.  So why not believe that God uses reincarnation as a type of punishment.  This life to me at times seems like a punishment.  Imagine coming back as a fly.  An appropriate punishment.  First and foremost all conclusions I have made is defining God as Love and as a Father.

I just had a thought.  Ever watched the show Charmed with the three witches.  They have power, but must be very careful not to use it in the wrong way. Matter of fact thinking about it I am an avid superhero fanatic, and all those movies have the same concept, with great power comes great responsibility.  There is obviously something to the concept, why else would it be in our movies?  This is the task of God.  To use His power over us in a way that does not enable us to keep on hurting each other.  God could come save us today, but tomorrow we will have learned nothing! Probably even get worse because we will know we can screw up all we want, and that's alright because God will save us.  God is not a super human, He is our Creator, our Father, and although he has not given us a road map, He has given us freedom to chose and a conscience to guide us in the right direction.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #133 on: March 26, 2013, 08:13:25 AM »
Quote
The issue isn't if humans should or could do better. We have to or else. But thinking that there is a god watching (and doing zip) adds nothing to the equation. Too many of your believing brethren think that their god will help them through these tough times. So if he is real and just sitting back and watching, then the problems are made worse by all those believers who are spending most of their time praying to him rather than acting. He is not a neutral force, but rather a negative one. And if he isn't real, and a bunch of people are spending their time worshipping him rather than acting, then those people are a negative force.

Certainly humans have to solve these problems. But they have been caused by our naturally evolved and well documented human tendency to create a few power-tripping dicks. And by our misunderstandings and/or refusal to understand nature. And by ignorance of all sorts, including the pretense of religion. Having Arabs and christians at each others throats for over non-existent variations on the god theme isn't helping matters in any way. For that matter, having christians at each others throats, and arabs at each others throats isn't doing any good either.

We apparently evolved to survive, not to be sweet. However we have reached a point in human history where it is theoretically possible for most everyone to thrive despite the moral weaknesses in our genetic code. But we have to approach the problems with real tools, not made up stuff that only complicates the situation. And it is not only religious "truths" that we need to banish, but too similar attitudes towards some economic and social theories that were long ago shown to be ineffective or, worse yet, harmful.

Your heart is in the right place, but your backstory needs a little work. It is perfectly possible to be a good person without having to think that the Jesus story is the greatest sacrifice ever made. He was just going back home. This one here is ours and we need to start cleaning it up for the right reasons, not imaginary ones.

I'll be reading up on what the good Dr. Wolfe has suggested. Since he has been on Bill Moyers show, and well received there, I am more than willing to give him a look see. But no one idea, no one suggestion, is going to fix everything. It will take a combination of efforts in many arenas to solve the issues of our time. And the abandonment of all that is useless; all that has proven to be of no value. And that includes religion.

Here is Dr. Wolfe's Web site if anyone is interested.
http://rdwolff.com

P.S. You don't need to be surprised when an atheist uses the term evil. Your devil can be eliminated from the concept without taking away the legitimacy of the concept. We need words for all extremes so that we can describe the current human condition. The men who gave the 15 year old rape victim in The Maldives 100 lashes yesterday are evil. The word is just too handy to remove simply because the concept of the devil has been extirpated from some of our minds.

I agree with most of what you said here, the only thing I would like to point out is there are a lot of Christians, Atheist, etc., out there doing more than just praying, they are feeding the hungry.  Nevertheless I am so glad we agree that a more permanent solution is doable and neccesary. 

I don't care if Atheist want to use the word evil, but one of them called me evil, and that was uncalled for.  Thanks for making me feel better :).
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #134 on: March 26, 2013, 08:16:43 AM »
Why would God saving children be grim?  Because I don't think God will just give those children food and ascend back into the clouds,  I believe there would be consequences to the rest of us for letting it happen.  Dark, grim consequences.

Do you have any idea how crazy that sounds?  "Grim consequences" for helping people who are starving?  And if it's wrong for Yahweh to do it, why would it be right for us to do it?  Especially if you claim that Yahweh is the source of all morality.

Quote
I just had a thought.  Ever watched the show Charmed with the three witches.  They have power, but must be very careful not to use it in the wrong way.

That's a really silly comparison, and I'm not just talking about the fact that you're comparing the alleged creator of the universe to an off-beat television series.  Among other things:

1)  Many of the restrictions on the use of their powers are restrictions that the Good and Evil sides both agreed on (e.g., not using their powers in front of mortals, so as to keep the existence of magic a secret).  Yahweh and Satan have no such understanding.

2)  One of the restrictions that the Charmed Ones have to adhere to is that they may not use their powers for personal gain.  However, Yahweh, being omniscient and omnipotent, cannot have any want or need for anything at all, and thus he can't use his power for personal gain.

3)  If the Charmed Ones use their powers in the "wrong way", they face consequences for it.  Yahweh, conversely, cannot face any penalties for anything he does because you cannot harm an omnipotent being.

4)  One of the reasons that the Charmed Ones are not permitted to use their powers at their own whim is that it is likely to cause grave damage to the world around us.  Yahweh, being omnipotent, would have no such concerns.

This is just the stuff I can think of off the top of my head.  If I had the inclination and the time, I'm sure I could come up with quite a few other things as well.  (For example, when Piper is having sex with Leo, she often uses her freeze power to freeze him at certain, erm, "moments" during the sex act, just for her own amusement.  Not sure how Christians would feel about Jesus doing anything analogous...)
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Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #135 on: March 26, 2013, 08:20:44 AM »
Screwtape, you're still missing the point. Attitudes and behaviors, or actions, are not the same as true love. True love is something that is a feeling, not an act. Actions and behaviors can be faked or real depending on whether love is really true in your mind and heart. That's why your point of loving God in OT is not real love because the consequences are death if you don't. So yeah I would say that point you made is true. Although, the NT law of "Love God with all your heart and mind is still the same thing as OT because if you don't there's still consequences. Just worded differently. But either way, that doesn't change fact you can't control what you truly love or believe. Psychologists are saying that your behavior and attitudes can change based on belief or love, but I don't believe love and beliefs can be changed by simply behavior, actions, or attitudes. If so, then that would have worked on me since I was a Christian for 40 years. I may have walked the walk, and even truly believed for many years, but that was due to brainwashing, not my positive actions. It doesn't matter if its God or Santa either, you can be brainwashed to believe anything. But no matter how hard a person tries, real love and beliefs come from experiences and knowledge you pick up on way of life, not from being forced or trying real hard. Behaviors and actions you can control however!

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #136 on: March 26, 2013, 08:34:38 AM »
I agree with most of what you said here, the only thing I would like to point out is there are a lot of Christians, Atheist, etc., out there doing more than just praying, they are feeding the hungry.  Nevertheless I am so glad we agree that a more permanent solution is doable and neccesary. 

I don't care if Atheist want to use the word evil, but one of them called me evil, and that was uncalled for. 

Is it?  Perhaps, perhaps not - but can you explain why?

Specifically: if you have the means and the desire to feed the starving, and you choose NOT to do so, is that a good act or an evil act? 

As your means and ability to help increase, does the "level" of goodness/evil for action/inaction increase or decrease?

You note that there are "dark, grim consequences" for feeding the starving.  Can you explain exactly what those consequences are?  Do you advocate that we all STOP trying to feed the satrving for fear of those consequences?  If not, why not?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #137 on: March 26, 2013, 08:57:04 AM »
Quote
Hi Junebug,
   As most theists, you are so blinded defending your belief in god, you do not read atheists correctly.  Why would you think an atheist wants Armageddon?  That's what you and the bible predict.  I am pretty sure the only end will be if we destroy ourselves through wars, and if you read post after post at WWGHA you will see that is exactly the religious  perversion of the rules of society we are against.  Why do theists think atheists do not understand love?  Why do theists think atheists do not understand the wisdom in many religions?

 It is only the fact that we, after more careful consideration than you can imagine, have rejected the idea that there is some of being that floats around the universe and has control over something.  Junebug, think hard about your definition of god and what he or she or it must be like to fit into your idea of a god.  That will be your beliefs undoing right there.

   Funny how you may think your are here to help us, while we feel we can help you.  Help you remove the baggage from your life and view all people the same - all people as responsible for the future of humanity, not some sort of puppets that god had absolute control over all along.  How absurd you will look back on the logic of your belief once you become free of it.  Like you are saying to us - Take Care, and good luck in your search for truth.

I am very strong in my beliefs.  I certainly don't consider it baggage. I already view people the same I am the least prejudice person I know.  I do not judge you or any one here for being atheist, I quite understand, I was from 1990-2001, but then something happened, I was forced to move in with my father, a Christian, and my Dad was so worried about my soul I decided to look further into God.  God was the one that spoke to my heart and told me He loves me and how upset He was that His followers made me feel that way. It has been 12 years since then, and God has revealed so much to me I feel obligated to share.  I know Christians would just laugh at me where as I thought I might get some support from here.  Not support on the existence of God but maybe a little credit for doing things my own way.

I used the word Armageddon to describe what you are asking for.  The people I have talked to here use starving children to disbelieve in God.  If there were a God He would feed the children? Right?  My point there is by challenging God in this way it is dangerous for us all. I do not see God just making some food but rather being quite angry that we have all stood by intolerant to greed and quite literally bringing on some type of Armageddon.  I know atheist hate the idea of Armageddon that is why I used it.  See to me as long as the world goes round God still has Faith in us,  when God loses His faith in us we will be in a very sad state.  Suppose God knows, that maybe by this time in 2015 we will have turned things around, but if He comes to help He knows the consequence, and is trying to save us all. 

Thanks for your comments.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 09:46:25 AM by junebug72 »
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #138 on: March 26, 2013, 09:05:13 AM »
I believe there would be consequences to the rest of us for letting it happen.  Dark, grim consequences.  See God loves us all.

Do you not see the inherent contradiction? 

Think of someone you love.  Think about if they did somthing bad.  Do you think you could help correct or teach him without the consequences being dark or grim?  If so, why do you think an omnipotent being could not?

I do not believe that the bible is the undisputed word of God.  I don't have to. I still receive my blessings and He still loves me!

That is pure SPAG

I believe in God because I can not wrap my mind around the evolution theory. 

"I don't understand science so I will be superstitious instead"?  That is not a winning approach.  If everyone were to have kept to that philosophy, we would still be drilling holes in people's heads to let the evil spirits out when they were sick. 

God works through us,

In otherwords, you do not expect god to actually do anything.  You expect the universe to behave in exactly the same way as if there were not gods.  Otherwise, omnipotent beings would not have to work "through" people.

Where do you think our conscience comes from.

evolution and empathy

It is the spirit of God and the temptations of greed and violence.

So you say, but how do you know and why should anyone believe you?

What makes a person chose the good instead f the bad?

evolution, empathy and mirror neurons.

Because the spirit of the person knows if they chose the bad their spirit will suffer more than their flesh.

So you say, but how do you know and why should anyone believe you?

The rest is just a bunch more unfounded claims that make you feel better. 

 


God was the one that spoke to my heart and told me He loves me and how upset He was that His followers made me feel that way.

eh, no.  That was you.  It was your own moral compass pointing the way.  That is a good thing.  It tells me you are much more moral and kind than xians.

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #139 on: March 26, 2013, 09:30:10 AM »
Screwtape, you're still missing the point. Attitudes and behaviors, or actions, are not the same as true love.

I'm not missing the point.  I agree they are not the same.  But I disagree that you have no control over them.

True love is something that is a feeling, not an act.

That is debatable.

Actions and behaviors can be faked or real depending on whether love is really true in your mind and heart.

You have not understood me, I think.  I am saying that if you behave a certain way, your emotions will follow consistently.
http://www.safetyperformance.com/whichfirst-attitudeorbehavior.pdf
http://psychology.jrank.org/pages/52/Attitude-Behavior.html
http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/10/05/the-benjamin-franklin-effect/
(^^Long, but totally worth it.  You will be smarter after reading it)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Franklin_effect


That's why your point of loving God in OT is not real love because the consequences are death if you don't.

Please don't tell me what my point was.  Especially when you seem to have missed it.

Although, the NT law of "Love God with all your heart and mind is still the same thing as OT because if you don't there's still consequences. Just worded differently.

Worded completely differently.  And in the OT version the love part was an after thought that came after threat of punishment.

But either way, that doesn't change fact you can't control what you truly love or believe.

Love and belief are two categorically different ideas.  I agree you cannot control what you believe.  But I think you do have some control over your emotions.

Psychologists are saying that your behavior and attitudes can change based on belief or love, but I don't believe love and beliefs can be changed by simply behavior, actions, or attitudes.

You seem to be completely confused. You are throwing love and belief together.  They are not the same.  And what you believe is in conflict with the data.

If so, then that would have worked on me since I was a Christian for 40 years.

Apparently it worked for 40 years.

but that was due to brainwashing, not my positive actions.

You mean positive actions like going to church or praying?  And what exactly is "brainwashing"?  Is it exploiting mental processes?  Is it manipulating people, coercing them with psychological tools?  How is it different from persuasion?  Is speaking to a waitress respectfully and saying "please" a form of brainwashing?  Because I sure think it is coersion.

But no matter how hard a person tries, real love and beliefs come from experiences and knowledge you pick up on way of life, not from being forced or trying real hard.

I completely agree.  And if you behave in a certain way, that is "experience", which leads to feeling.
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Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #140 on: March 26, 2013, 09:41:49 AM »
No screw it didn't work for 40 years. That's my point. I tried to love God more than my family but never obtained that, so my point is you can't control what you love and the amount of love you have for something. Not debatable because I've tried it, maybe you need to so you can see what Im talking about. Just like once a man or woman falls out of love with a person, no matter how hard they try to stay with that person, if they don't love them, they don't love them. Now that can change, true, but not from a decision to love. And I know love and belief are different things, but Im listing them together because they are same in the fact you have no choice whether you love or believe something. It's learned from experience and other aspects. Now of course if let's say for example, a woman decides in her mind she wants to stay with someone and fall back in love with them, she could choose to stay and not leave, she could be really nice and act loving towards them, she could have sex with him on a regular basis, and many other nice and loving behaviors you're talkin about. But none of that will make her love him more or less. Because that's a feeling she can't control. Most likely for her to really love him, he would have to change things about him that she would be attracted to. But that has nothing to do with controlling your love for God because he would have to change in order for that scenario to occur. For example, he could physically show himself to me and touch me with a love potion. That would have probably worked and I would love him with all my heart and mind. But since he probably will never do that. I'm most likely never going to love him like its commanded in Bible, because again, is not a choice you make, it's a feeling based on experience. Not actions I take
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 09:59:12 AM by Cutdogg »

Online Dante

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #141 on: March 26, 2013, 09:54:50 AM »

I am very strong in my beliefs.  I certainly don't consider it baggage. I already view people the same I am the least prejudice person I know.  I do not judge you or any one here for being atheist, I quite understand, I was from 1990-2001, but then something happened, I was forced to move in with my father, a Christian, and my Dad was so worried about my soul I decided to look further into God.

Were you worried about your soul? Why, or why not?

Quote
God was the one that spoke to my heart and told me He loves me and how upset He was that His followers made me feel that way.

How did he speak to you? Big booming god voice? Nope, I bet you heard it in your head, no? See, many theists claim this, but the voices are always inside their head. But, there are many thoughts in many people's heads. And, we find it odd that we atheists never hear those voices claiming to be a god, telling us we're so loved by his omnimax. I wonder why that is.

Quote
been 12 years since then, and God has revealed so much to me I feel obligated to share.

Like what? What has been revealed?

Quote
I know Christians would just laugh at me where as I thought I might get some support from here.  Not support on the existence of God but maybe a little credit for doing things my own way.

If you're doing things your own way, what credit is your god? You will get support, such that it is, here for doing things your own way. And that's all you've ever done is do things your own way. There are no gods necessary.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #142 on: March 26, 2013, 10:29:35 AM »
No screw it didn't work for 40 years.

The actions you took - along with other social factors, I am sure - kept you in religion for 40 years.  So on some level it was very effective.  What was your overall opinion of church and god during that time?  Was it ambivalent?  Was it one that was generally favorable?

I tried to love God more than my family but never obtained that,

That's changing the goal posts.  It went from "love" to "love more than your family".  Let's not do that, please.

so my point is you can't control what you love and the amount of love you have for something.

Those are two different ideas and the latter is one only just now introduced.  Let's just keep this discussion focused on the former.

Not debatable

It is debatable.  I think you've not read what I have linked.  Please do that.  It may give you some now data.  I think you are looking at your own experience - one case - and missing the broader idea here.

Just like once a man or woman falls out of love with a person, no matter how hard they try to stay with that person, if they don't love them, they don't love them.

I don't believe that either.  It is one of those things people take for granted, but then, the idea of a flat earth was also conventional wisdom once. 

I know relationships are more difficult to sort out than astronomy and simply following the advice of "be nice to each other" does not cut the mustard in all cases.  But the basic premise that attitudes follow actions is a well documented phenomenon.  It is fact. 

And I know love and belief are different things, but Im listing them together because they are same in the fact you have no choice whether you love or believe something.

It's not a fact.  Facts are reality.  Show me where reality agrees with you.  Give me a link, or a source, something that corroborates your earnest opinion.  Otherwise, we are just a couple of idiots shouting at each other over the intertubes.

But none of that will make her love him more or less.

Typically when two reasonable and rational people have a disagreement, they check reality to see who, if anyone, is correct.[1]  I've supplied sources that contradict this belief of yours.  That is, I have checked reality.  You have simply repeated your arguments.  I understand your position.  But argumentation, no matter how good or reasonable sounding, is subordinate to reality. 

So unless you wish to introduce new data - which I would happily and openly review - I consider your position to be unfounded.


 1. this is why religion is neither reasonable nor rational.  They cannot check to see who is right
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Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #143 on: March 26, 2013, 10:32:07 AM »
Ok Screw, I'll say this because you're not the only person that believes love and belief are 2 things that can be controlled by our desire to do so. Maybe I am wrong in that nobody can control them. But I know I can't control them because I have tried and no matter what I tell myself,( example: mouth:"I do love Hitler, I do love Hitler"; mind:" I hate Hitler, I hate Hitler"), I still can't control it. Maybe you can, so I shouldn't say it's debatable. I just think its not possible. I think everything we love is loved because of emotions we can't control because we've been hard wired with those. And everything we believe in are beliefs because of what we've witnessed or seen in life. Again making it impossible to control. But either way, that's one of the problems I have with Bibles philosophy. What if youre like me and you can't control it. If God made me like that, you would think he wouldn't hold me accountable then. Just like it wouldn't be right to throw someone in Hell because of their skin color or because they're blind. If he made them that way it wouldn't be justice.

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #144 on: March 26, 2013, 10:39:00 AM »
Screw, my opinion was good about God, but deep down I always wondered, so that's not real belief. Again I tried very hard, but couldn't convince mind like most Christians do but are in denial. Secondly, the Bible does say love God first, then family, so that's why I pointed that out. And thirdly, you're still confusing Love and beliefs,( which I admitted already are 2 different things, but they both are uncontrollable), with behaviors and actions. The 2 latter can be faked!!!
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 10:42:07 AM by Cutdogg »