Author Topic: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself  (Read 20300 times)

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Offline Tonus

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #87 on: March 09, 2013, 09:59:01 AM »
I agree that pulling some verses out of context can change the way a verse or teaching is interpreted.  So let's be fair.  Let's look at Matthew 5:22 within its context and see what it tells us:

In Matthew 5:21, Jesus sets the basis for comparison by quoting the law against murder: anyone who commits murder is (depending on the translation being used) "liable to the court" or "subject/liable to judgment/punishment."  And so on.  In other words, Jesus acknowledges that the law prescribes a punishment for murder, and I am going to assume that anyone reading Matthew 5:21 agrees that the Biblical punishment for murder is death.  In other words, however Jesus describes the punishment ("liable to the court," "subject to judgment") is understood to mean a death sentence.

In verse 22, he broadens this understanding.  "Everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and who ever says to his brother, 'you good for nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'you fool' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."  Again, that last part is worded differently depending on the translation, but our understanding of verse 21 should make it pretty clear.  This is a really harsh addition to the law.  You no longer have to murder a person to be guilty of a judgment of death; you simply have to be angry with him!

However, verses 23-24 indicate that there is a way out of this judgment; if the target of your wrath approaches you and makes peace, he has saved you.  He makes it plain, to the target of your wrath, that you are in danger of adverse judgment if he does not act on your behalf.  This is an interesting way of telling people that if you get angry with your fellow man, you are pretty well screwed unless he's nice enough to intercede on your behalf.  Moral of the story?  Don't get angry at someone who isn't generous enough to let you off the hook.

He follows up with similar admonitions for other laws.  Matthew 5:27-28: adultery is wrong (punishable by death in the law) but now just lusting after a woman makes a man guilty of adultery.  He drives home the seriousness of this with his "if your eye/hand is causing you to stumble" teaching (29-30).  He condemns divorce on threat of the same fate.  Just the act of divorce is enough to make one liable.  Verses 33-37 warns against making promises!  Verses 38-42 warns that not helping someone who wronged you is just as risky as taking revenge upon him.  Verses 43-47 extend this idea to your oppressors.  Pray for them, because god treats them just as well as he does you.

Therefore, when Jesus reacts angrily to those he is speaking to in those later verses, he certainly appears to have committed a crime that he claimed will lead to adverse judgment equal to that meted out to murderers.  Euroclydon countered this claim by placing Jesus above such judgments, since he is the one who will do the judging.  In other words, Jesus is guilty of the same "do as I say, but not as I do" attitude that he condemned the Israelite priests for having.  But he's god, so it's okay.

But errr... there is the problem of verse 48, where Jesus closes chapter 5 with a flourish: you must be perfect, just like god.  In other words, god is your role model.  Except for when he calls people "fools."  Because he granted himself a special exception.  Just like the corrupt high priests that he condemned.  Which is totally not hypocritical, because god can't be a hypocrite.  Why?  DUH, because HE'S GOD.  And you're not.  Now get out of his sandbox before he drops you into a fiery pit, just for giggles.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #88 on: March 09, 2013, 10:11:16 AM »

Quote
"40 You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?"  Luke 11:40

Here again Jesus is getting on the establishment. His point here is you should worry more about keeping your insides clean and not worry so much about your dishes.  Do you know that a Pharisee was a prominent member of the church, like a deacon is today.

I like Luke 20:46-47

46.Beware of the scribes, who desire to walk in long robes, and love salutations (greetings), in the market places, and in the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief places at feast;
47.Who devour widows houses and for a show make long prayers, the same shall receive greater condemnation.

Jesus tried to teach the leaders where they were going wrong, but they refused to believe who Jesus was.


Scribes in Ancient Israel, as in most of the ancient world, were distinguished professionals who could exercise functions we would associate with lawyers, government ministers, judges, or even financiers, as early as the 11th century BCE.[10] Some scribes copied documents, but this was not necessarily part of their job.[11]
The Jewish scribes used the following process for creating copies of the Torah and eventually other books in the Tanakh.
They could only use clean animal skins, both to write on, and even to bind manuscripts.
Each column of writing could have no less than forty-eight, and no more than sixty lines.
The ink must be black, and of a special recipe.
They must say each word aloud while they were writing.
They must wipe the pen and wash their entire bodies before writing the most Holy Name of God, YHVH, every time they wrote it.
There must be a review within thirty days, and if as many as three pages required corrections, the entire manuscript had to be redone.
The letters, words, and paragraphs had to be counted, and the document became invalid if two letters touched each other. The middle paragraph, word and letter must correspond to those of the original document.
The documents could be stored only in sacred places (synagogues, etc.).
As no document containing God's Word could be destroyed, they were stored, or buried, in a genizah.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #89 on: March 09, 2013, 10:57:44 AM »

Quote
If you believe in something with mysterious or supernatural powers you are by proxy believe in magic because that's all magic is. Some may use the word 'magic' to discredit somebody's beliefs because 'magic' is considered to be a childish notion, regardless of that, it is still magic and it is no different to believing in fairies and unicorns. The beliefs are no less valid, yet people will put their own beliefs on a different pedestal to try and present their views in a more reasonable light. At the end of the day, they're supernatural, they are based on faith and have nothing really to back themselves up. To my mind they serve better as hypotheses, I am willing to accept that people will have faith, be it God, unicorns or Santa Claus, if they come here naturally I'd attempt to scrutinise them, but none of those beliefs are deserving of more respect than the next and naturally, I consider them all 'magical', because for them to exist in their described form then they'd require magic. Heck, due to the content of the bible and what it has led a certain number of Christians to support, believe and even do, in general I have less respect for Christianity than I do for any ideologies for belief in fairies, unicorns or Santa. On an individual level, I judge Christians for who they are. However, I will not hide by the illusion that Christianity isn't based around magic, regardless of who I respect.

I see your point and it is understandable due to the fact that you do not believe in Creation.  Therefore God does seem like something as insignificant as just silly unreal magic. To the Christian He is they're superior leader, Creator. Know what I mean?  No doubt Christians have been making him look pretty darn bad.  Not all, there are some who genuinely try to be true to God.  Those other ones though, they are the ones we should try to forgive, they really don't know any better.  I feel sorry for them.  I had my anger for awhile, but trust me when I say that   
letting go of that anger opened my eyes and my heart to a whole new understanding of God and my relationship to Him.

So my question is this. God is real, so how could it be magic.  Think of theoretically if you have to, that will be alright.

Your Friendly Junebug
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Tonus

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #90 on: March 09, 2013, 11:39:04 AM »
Hi junebug!  I see from our titles that we're both freshmen.  We'll need to be careful while wandering the halls, lest a pack of seniors decide to try to haze us!  I won't carry your books, though.  You're a girl, and they have cooties. :(

Quote from: junebug72
So my question is this. God is real, so how could it be magic.  Think of theoretically if you have to, that will be alright.

I see that in this topic, there has been discussion of whether god "does magic."  If I am understanding correctly, some are drawing a line between what is supernatural, and what is magic.  If I am mistaken in this, please correct me where necessary.  Presuming that my understanding is correct, I would reply as follows:

I'll start with the primary definition of "magic" from a couple of sources on the web:

Google: (noun) The power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.
Merriam-Webster: the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces.
Free Dictionary: The art that purports to control or forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural.

Thus, magic is generally assumed to tap into the same supernatural forces that a person might call "miracles" or "divine spirit" or "godly power."  This doesn't mean that there isn't a dividing line.  There is, and it's subjective: magic is BAD.  Divine spirit is GOOD.  Both are manifestations of the supernatural, but are considered to be used for different purposes.

Thus, when the Egyptian sorcerers were able to duplicate the miracles performed by Moses, the modern believer sees conjurers using magic, not holy men performing miracles.  There is nothing to differentiate the acts themselves; there is only subjective interpretation.  Those Egyptian sorcerers would not have considered the situation in reverse, either.  They simply would have seen it as the contest of supernatural forces: the god of Moses against the pantheon of Egyptian gods.  Thus, the distinction between the magic used by wicked men and the divine spirit working through good men was likely not made by the original writer(s) of Exodus.  At the time, they also believed in the existence of multiple gods, and that their god was stronger than anyone else's.

The person who does not believe in god has no reason to draw a distinction either.  For him, "magic" and "miracle" are synonyms.  Different words, same general meaning.  For the believer, who needs to make a distinction between similar (or even identical) actions performed by beings specifically identified as being wicked or good, the words they use are important.  God doesn't perform magic, because magic is what bad people do.  God performs miracles, because miracles is what good people do.  So yes, it's nothing more than a humourous semantics argument for the non-believer, but a critical and clear distinction for the believer.

My view is that the non-believer's approach is pretty straightforward, as it treats synonymous terms as what they are: different words to describe the same or similar things.  The believer has to draw distinctions that require additional explanation and the broadening of definitions to allow or disallow actions that would otherwise be indistinguishable.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #91 on: March 10, 2013, 07:35:46 AM »
Quote from: Tonus

But errr... there is the problem of verse 48, where Jesus closes chapter 5 with a flourish: you must be perfect, just like god.  In other words, god is your role model.  Except for when he calls people "fools."  Because he granted himself a special exception.  Just like the corrupt high priests that he condemned.  Which is totally not hypocritical, because god can't be a hypocrite.  Why?  DUH, because HE'S GOD.  And you're not.  Now get out of his sandbox before he drops you into a fiery pit, just for giggles.

first of all let me just say it doesn't offend me that folks here call God's work magic or supernatural, but what i believe is that He is an extraordinary scientist. I don't think Creation had anything to do with magic, but an ingenious scientific accomplishment. thx

Hey Tonus,

Thx for your reply. Okay,  talk about taking verses out of context, wow.  Matthew chapter 5 is the sermon on the mount.  Jesus had accrued a following on His journey from Galilee thru Jerusalem,Decapolis, Judea, and beyond the Jordan.  These people were laiden down with disease and mental problems; "demon possession".  They were no doubt cast out by the "establishment" and their sickness blamed on the devil.   Jesus was trying to comfort these people by tearing down what the church had done to them.  That this is not God's plan for humanity.  Commiting adultery in those days would get you killed, still can, but if you recall the old law was to stone 'em right there on the spot.  Jesus here is saying it is wrong to commit adultery but that it's not mans place to judge but God's.  He is comparing the consequences of adultery to losing a limb.  He does not mean to literally pluck out your eye. The next section is Jesus teaching these people how to be smart about making change.   to conduct yourself in an honorable manner so they may earn respect.  The Greensboro 4 used this same tactic to start a change in civil rights for African Americans and it worked like a charm.  That is why He tells them to be perfect.  To accomplish change, put an end to oppression.  It's kind of hard to hang a good honest person on a cross. well it should have been.  There's no doubt that Jesus's execution slowly but surely put an end to the horrible practice.  He then goes on in chapter 6 to teach these followers to do their charity in secret, don't shout your good works off the mountain tops don't even tell your closest friend.  What's important is God sees and you will receive a heavenly reward.  Which I am sure would be much more glorious than anything man could offer.  And then it gets good.  Jesus tells them not to pray in front of a crowd, a very common church practice still today.  He then gives them the Lord's prayer.

Father, Who art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come; thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day; our daily bread.
And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from *evil.
For thine is the Kingdom, and the Power, and the Glory, Forever, Amen

*evil=church and government, who else did they need delivering from?

The next lesson is on greed. Don't lay up treasures on Earth. Lay up treasures in Heaven for they are forever.  He then goes on to tell His starving followers; Be not anxious for food, clothes, or drink and explains God's power over the Earth and that if you have faith in the Master, He will supply your every need. Then here comes my FAVORITE part.  JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED.  the amount of times that ones been broken, well if you count the stars, grains of sand, hairs on every human you might get close.  Then there is prayer.  He encourages His audience to pray.  Ask and receive, seek and you will find, knock and I will open the door.  Then He explains God's Love, being like that of an earthly father; a good earthly father.  Giving his children what they need.  Oh, sorry we're in chapter 7 now, it was a long sermon! :)

The next part is so important I must start a new paragraph!

Matt. ch.7 vs.15-16

15.Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16.Ye shall know them by their fruits.

False prophets.  Wouldn't you say at least 90% of all the pastors/priests out there are false prophets.  They have done awful things in God's name and caused good people like you all to hate Him. That is not good fruit so how could any of them not be false prophets.  Still creating hate, prejudice, greed.  If they truly believe in Jesus they will take off their robes, step down from their pulpits and as equals we could learn and grow.  I do however also strongly suggest one on one time.  You know praying in private.  Jesus did say to pray in private.  However, I think when several people pray for something really important, like say the cure for cancer, or world peace that God really respects our comradery and would answer our prayers.  I would like to see every one around the world come together in prayer for humanity.  It's not impossible.  Just name a time like say tomorrow night at 7pm eastern time all that believe we can do better than this, stop what your doing and really pray for the world, cures, greed, hunger, the brokenhearted. Then I bet my friends that you would have your proof. Then every night same time until God gives us our deliverance from evil.

Godspeed,
Junebug

To God be the Glory, I am His mouth piece
 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #92 on: March 10, 2013, 08:16:41 AM »
Quote from: Tonus

The person who does not believe in god has no reason to draw a distinction either.  For him, "magic" and "miracle" are synonyms.  Different words, same general meaning.  For the believer, who needs to make a distinction between similar (or even identical) actions performed by beings specifically identified as being wicked or good, the words they use are important.  God doesn't perform magic, because magic is what bad people do.  God performs miracles, because miracles is what good people do.  So yes, it's nothing more than a humourous semantics argument for the non-believer, but a critical and clear distinction for the believer.

My view is that the non-believer's approach is pretty straightforward, as it treats synonymous terms as what they are: different words to describe the same or similar things.  The believer has to draw distinctions that require additional explanation and the broadening of definitions to allow or disallow actions that would otherwise be indistinguishable.

Well it's hard to completely disagree with you when your basing your opinion on false prophecy.  I see God more as a Scientist, a Master of all there is to know.  And it is quite magical when science creates new and amazing inventions that leave mankind in awed.  Love is magical and God is Love, so it ain't so bad to call God a magician.  What's bad is to call Him a hater!  I read some of the posts on here by the Christian and not once now have they said to you all, that you can deny Him all you want but He is still going to Love you and will Miss you until you find Him.

GOD LOVES YOU ALL SO MUCH, PLEASE STOP LETTING FALSE PROPHECY COME BETWEEN YOU AND OUR AMAZING CREATOR! PLEASE?  HELP ME TURN THIS AROUND. TOGETHER WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE! You can not get rid of God that mission is hopeless, what we can do is improve, or evolve for all you scientist out there, what we all know in our hearts to be true.  You should know that the things Christians do that angers you, it breaks God's heart.

Godspeed,
Junebug

To God be the Glory

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Tonus

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #93 on: March 10, 2013, 08:44:34 AM »
Quote from: junebug72
Okay,  talk about taking verses out of context, wow.
I think I worked within the context of the arguments that were being made regarding the original post.  I covered a pretty large contiguous block (verses 21-48) without omitting anything that I'm aware of.
Quote from: junebug72
Jesus here is saying it is wrong to commit adultery but that it's not mans place to judge but God's.
But it was god who gave the Israelites the law that allowed them to judge adulterers as worthy of death.  In the section I was discussing, Jesus opens each segment with "you have heard that it was said," which is a reference to the law given to the Israelites by god.  Jesus was not telling them that they could not judge, he was moving the burden of guilt from deed to thought.  Adultery was a stoning offense, but now just the thought of committing adultery was worthy of punishment.  Murder was a capital crime, but now anger was sufficient to put one at risk of divine judgment.

Jesus is saying that acting in a godly manner was not enough.  One had to be like god in thought, not just in deed (hence verse 48: you need to be perfect, like god is perfect).  I think that we're in agreement here, that the gist of his message was for his followers to think clean thoughts in order to avoid impure actions.  The teaching, as I recall it, is that one of Jesus' goals in taking human form was to "fulfill the law" and then to supercede it with a "new covenant."  No longer would god's people have a list of good and bad things to do or avoid, but that they had to develop a mental attitude that would guide them towards good and away from bad.  None of that affects the point I made in my previous post about Matthew 5:21-48, and how it applies to the discussion following the initial post in this topic.
Quote from: junebug72
Be not anxious for food, clothes, or drink and explains God's power over the Earth and that if you have faith in the Master, He will supply your every need.
This will come as a painful surprise to those around the world who have put their trust in god and continue to suffer and want for even basic needs.  Often, when their plight is brought up to believers, we are told that either their suffering is part of god's plan, or that perhaps they're not being truly sincere in their approach.  The first explanation runs afoul of Jesus' promise in Matthew 6:25-33.  He does not promise his followers that they'll be cared for 'unless I arbitrarily decide otherwise.'  There are no qualifiers on his promise that god will care for those who put his kingdom first in their hearts.  The second is often self-condemning, as nearly every believer has had a time when they asked god for something and did not receive a reply.  Sorry, guess you just didn't want it badly enough.

I've never understood the confusion with the "judge not" part of the Sermon on the Mount.  Jesus is not telling people not to judge, he is telling them to, well... apply their judgments judiciously.  The context makes it clear that he's talking about providing counsel, or advice, to those in need.  If you do not have your own affairs in order, then any counsel you give may be discounted.  A person who counsels another person to avoid alcohol may not be taken seriously if he's known for his frequent bouts of drunkenness.

Anyway, after that part, he continues to promise his followers that if they ask, god will provide.  See above for how well that seems to be working.
Quote from: junebug72
False prophets.  Wouldn't you say at least 90% of all the pastors/priests out there are false prophets.
You're off by about 10%. :)
Quote from: junebug72
I think when several people pray for something really important, like say the cure for cancer, or world peace that God really respects our comradery and would answer our prayers.  I would like to see every one around the world come together in prayer for humanity.
Well, it's a far cry from "several people" to "everyone around the world."  In Matthew 18:20, Jesus promises that wherever there are two or three gathered in his name, he is with them.  If the only thing preventing the eradication of cancer or war is the heartfelt prayers of two or three people, then believers have been slacking off pretty badly!

I think that this shows the way that believers work around facts or circumstances that undermine what they (or their religions) teach.  The Bible tells us that god will answer prayers and grant whatever we ask for.  When that doesn't happen, we change the rules to explain why this is so.  There weren't enough people praying.  They didn't pray long enough.  They weren't sincere enough.  It's not that god is being capricious and adding requirements that we can't meet; his explanation of the power of prayer is both simple and clear: ask for something, and I will provide.  It shouldn't take anything more than that to provide proof of the power of prayer by eradicating cancer or achieving world peace.

Offline Tonus

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #94 on: March 10, 2013, 08:58:15 AM »
Quote from: junebug72
Well it's hard to completely disagree with you when your basing your opinion on false prophecy.
I don't have much of a choice.  A prophecy based on any of the ancient texts (or even any of the modern ones) is false.  Which is to say that aside from about 40% of sports predictions, just about all prophecy is false.

As for "god as scientist," it's an intriguing idea.  That is what many religions teach, that god is a man of science and that science provides evidence of the existence of a creator.  The problem is, science hasn't done that.  Over the centuries, science has chipped away at the evidence that there is a god, providing explanations for what we see and experience that don't require an external, mystic force.  As far as I can recall, the "scientific" evidence for god is emotional, not scientific.  It amounts to "look at this awesome (DNA, view of space, gorgeous waterfall, beautiful baby, etc) and tell me that god doesn't exist!!!"  That's an emotional argument.  Requests for scientific proof of god's handiwork tend to result in either emotional arguments or a dismissal of the request via a flurry of logical fallacies and bizarre theorizing.
Quote from: junebug72
You can not get rid of God that mission is hopeless
I hope not.  I think that humanity will eventually grow out of our "god phase."  I am afraid that it won't happen until long after I've passed on, but I think it's inevitable.  In any case, I think that most atheists are less concerned with "getting rid of god" than they are with continuing to diminish his role in society and culture and especially politics, where religion and its ideas can be forced upon those of us who are perfectly happy living without either.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #95 on: March 10, 2013, 11:03:42 AM »

Quote
I think I worked within the context of the arguments that were being made regarding the original post.  I covered a pretty large contiguous block (verses 21-48) without omitting anything that I'm aware of.

I'm sorry Tonus but you have twisted this around along with the mother of this post to win your own argument. You are doing the same thing that Christians do. Taking inspiration and turning it into some thing bad. 

Quote
But it was god who gave the Israelites the law that allowed them to judge adulterers as worthy of death.  In the section I was discussing, Jesus opens each segment with "you have heard that it was said," which is a reference to the law given to the Israelites by god.  Jesus was not telling them that they could not judge, he was moving the burden of guilt from deed to thought.  Adultery was a stoning offense, but now just the thought of committing adultery was worthy of punishment.  Murder was a capital crime, but now anger was sufficient to put one at risk of divine judgment.

God's law said though shalt not kill and not one person in that crowd stood up to Moses and said that don't make sense.  That was Moses's own anger and intolerance that was the birth of hatred and capital punishment.  I think that's why God did not allow Moses into the promise land and it had nothing to do with sanctifying the water in the desert, but that is what he told the people. And so it began He blamed His weakness on God instead of taking responsibility for his own actions.  And that my friend is human nature, especially when you have a lot to loose. 

Quote
Jesus is saying that acting in a godly manner was not enough.  One had to be like god in thought, not just in deed (hence verse 48: you need to be perfect, like god is perfect).  I think that we're in agreement here, that the gist of his message was for his followers to think clean thoughts in order to avoid impure actions.  The teaching, as I recall it, is that one of Jesus' goals in taking human form was to "fulfill the law" and then to supercede it with a "new covenant."  No longer would god's people have a list of good and bad things to do or avoid, but that they had to develop a mental attitude that would guide them towards good and away from bad.  None of that affects the point I made in my previous post about Matthew 5:21-48, and how it applies to the discussion following the initial post in this topic.

Yes Jesus was here to fulfill the law.  The prophecy of Elijah and Daniel.  That He will come and be rejected and die so that all may live.  He didn't run away or hide from His horrific fate, but embraced it out of LOVE for you and all mankind.

Quote
This will come as a painful surprise to those around the world who have put their trust in god and continue to suffer and want for even basic needs.  Often, when their plight is brought up to believers, we are told that either their suffering is part of god's plan, or that perhaps they're not being truly sincere in their approach.  The first explanation runs afoul of Jesus' promise in Matthew 6:25-33.  He does not promise his followers that they'll be cared for 'unless I arbitrarily decide otherwise.'  There are no qualifiers on his promise that god will care for those who put his kingdom first in their hearts.  The second is often self-condemning, as nearly every believer has had a time when they asked god for something and did not receive a reply.  Sorry, guess you just didn't want it badly enough.

First of all, Jesus explains that if you want God to hear your prayers you must first hear the lesson from the sermon.  The way Christianity is practiced is not the way of Jesus.  Which what really could be summed up by saying preserve life by being noble.  Don't give the establishment a reason to take your life.  Set a good example for your fellow man.  Shine your light and stay out of the dark.  Sow seeds of kindness and your harvest will be bountiful.  His sermon on the mount saved countless lives. Still does!

Quote
I've never understood the confusion with the "judge not" part of the Sermon on the Mount.  Jesus is not telling people not to judge, he is telling them to, well... apply their judgments judiciously.  The context makes it clear that he's talking about providing counsel, or advice, to those in need.  If you do not have your own affairs in order, then any counsel you give may be discounted.  A person who counsels another person to avoid alcohol may not be taken seriously if he's known for his frequent bouts of drunkenness.

Jesus is making the point that before you judge someone else take a good look at yourself, for you too will be judged.   The confusion comes in due to the fact that if they focused on that part of the Bible then they couldn't be so judgmental. ;D And since there is no man without flaw He is telling us not to judge, to keep our own selves in check.  He also advises that if you find yourself the judgee to just agree and go to prison save your life, it's not worth it.  The drunken elders is in Ephesians I do believe.  It is part of a letter that Paul wrote while he was in prison for preaching that God loves the uncircumcised as well as the circumcised.  And that is how the modern church was born.  The uncircumcised converting to the One God and away from paganism.  He was advising the elders to stay sober in order to give wise advice.  I tell you people really had it hard in those days and most of the changes that we enjoy today are thanks to the Death of Jesus Christ.

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Anyway, after that part, he continues to promise his followers that if they ask, god will provide.  See above for how well that seems to be working.

Well, it's a far cry from "several people" to "everyone around the world."  In Matthew 18:20, Jesus promises that wherever there are two or three gathered in his name, he is with them.  If the only thing preventing the eradication of cancer or war is the heartfelt prayers of two or three people, then believers have been slacking off pretty badly

I think that this shows the way that believers work around facts or circumstances that undermine what they (or their religions) teach.  The Bible tells us that god will answer prayers and grant whatever we ask for.  When that doesn't happen, we change the rules to explain why this is so.  There weren't enough people praying.  They didn't pray long enough.  They weren't sincere enough.  It's not that god is being capricious and adding requirements that we can't meet; his explanation of the power of prayer is both simple and clear: ask for something, and I will provide.  It shouldn't take anything more than that to provide proof of the power of prayer by eradicating cancer or achieving world peace.

It's kind of simple if you look at it like this.  Jesus said Love one another as I have loved you.  If you're not doing that, more than likely your prayer will not be answered.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #96 on: March 10, 2013, 12:47:24 PM »
@Junebug

that last portion about answering prayers, how do you reconcile that with children starving to death who's prayers go unanswered? I mean toddlers, 2, 3, 4... How do you respond to Christians who feel that god no longer interacts with the world in any detectable fashion?

Offline Tonus

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #97 on: March 10, 2013, 01:20:31 PM »
Quote from: junebug72
I'm sorry Tonus but you have twisted this around along with the mother of this post to win your own argument. You are doing the same thing that Christians do. Taking inspiration and turning it into some thing bad.
I'd like a little more than just an assertion that I've twisted anything.  How so?  Are there any particular parts of my post that you feel would undermine the whole, if they were changed?  And how would you change them?  If your response is that my post simply cannot be salvaged, then I suppose we'll just have to disagree and let the posts speak for themselves.
Quote from: junebug72
God's law said though shalt not kill and not one person in that crowd stood up to Moses and said that don't make sense.
Well, of course not.  To speak up against the word of god would probably not have ended well.
Quote from: junebug72
That was Moses's own anger and intolerance that was the birth of hatred and capital punishment.  I think that's why God did not allow Moses into the promise land and it had nothing to do with sanctifying the water in the desert, but that is what he told the people. And so it began He blamed His weakness on God instead of taking responsibility for his own actions.  And that my friend is human nature, especially when you have a lot to loose.
I... have a creeping feeling that I know how this discussion is going to end.

You're saying that the Biblical record says one thing, but another actually happened?  I admit that I cannot work with that.  I can use the Old and New Testament to make or dissect certain points or beliefs, but The Holy Scriptures of Junebug are not in my personal library.  If I were to just add or redact portions of the Bible to make it fit my worldview... huh.  That kind of explains why there are so many different denominations of Christianity.  Ah well, let's soldier on.
Quote from: junebug72
First of all, Jesus explains that if you want God to hear your prayers you must first hear the lesson from the sermon.  The way Christianity is practiced is not the way of Jesus.
This is more of what you said above.  Again, I can only go by what I read in the Bible.  In this case, the book of Matthew.  You are quoting from the book of Junebug.  I don't happen to have that particular translation.

The book of Junebug seems to be saying that if you thought you were being a good Christian and following Jesus' example and you and a group of similarly loyal Christians pray for a cure for cancer and it doesn't work... one or more of you just don't measure up.  Go back and hear the lesson from the sermon.  Now, practice Christianity differently.  Be noble.  Avoid the death penalty.  Be a good example.  Avoid power outages.  Be kind.  Now... try that prayer again, and say goodbye to cancer and war!  Honest, the book of Junebug sounds a bit better than the book of Matthew.  But I suspect that it's getting the same results.  Hang on... *checks the news* ...yeah, people still get cancer and fight wars.

That probably sounds a bit too snarky and insulting, and is kind of uncalled for.  I apologize, Junebug.
Quote from: junebug72
It's kind of simple if you look at it like this.  Jesus said Love one another as I have loved you.  If you're not doing that, more than likely your prayer will not be answered.
...although I am pretty sure I wasn't as insulting as this. :o

(Note: not insulting to me, as I don't believe that Jesus or god exists.  But anyone who has prayed for divine help in a time of need and did not get an answer, or an answer they wanted, and is told that he or she wasn't living up to Jesus' example would probably get kind of angry... and then they'd be risking judgment, according to Matthew 5:21,22.  So we've come full circle!)

Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #98 on: March 17, 2013, 09:00:24 AM »

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You're saying that the Biblical record says one thing, but another actually happened?  I admit that I cannot work with that.  I can use the Old and New Testament to make or dissect certain points or beliefs, but The Holy Scriptures of Junebug are not in my personal library.  If I were to just add or redact portions of the Bible to make it fit my worldview... huh.  That kind of explains why there are so many different denominations of Christianity.  Ah well, let's soldier on.

First I think I should first explain my view on the Bible.  The Bible can be a good study guide but I believe whether or not it's the undisputed word of God is debatable.  After all the author of every book is human and unfortunately humans make mistakes.  I know this one's going to really blow you away. I believe God is the very one that opened my mind to this. Think of the Native American.  They are very spiritual people.  That's what God is all about, the spirit of a man, not the flesh.  They never had a Bible to read, but they understood that you need a clean spirit for a good afterlife. The spirit is what a person really is, not the outer vessel of flesh.  That is the basic foundation for all religion's of the world.  How can you really know God without studying them all?  I'll have to admit that I've been slacking the last few years, I found the answers I was looking for and just stopped studying.  I will have to say that finding those answers started a healing in me that I had been searching for, for a long time. 

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The book of Junebug seems to be saying that if you thought you were being a good Christian and following Jesus' example and you and a group of similarly loyal Christians pray for a cure for cancer and it doesn't work... one or more of you just don't measure up.  Go back and hear the lesson from the sermon.  Now, practice Christianity differently.  Be noble.  Avoid the death penalty.  Be a good example.  Avoid power outages.  Be kind.  Now... try that prayer again, and say goodbye to cancer and war!  Honest, the book of Junebug sounds a bit better than the book of Matthew.  But I suspect that it's getting the same results.  Hang on... *checks the news* ...yeah, people still get cancer and fight wars.

That probably sounds a bit too snarky and insulting, and is kind of uncalled for.  I apologize, Junebug.

...although I am pretty sure I wasn't as insulting as this. :o

(Note: not insulting to me, as I don't believe that Jesus or god exists.  But anyone who has prayed for divine help in a time of need and did not get an answer, or an answer they wanted, and is told that he or she wasn't living up to Jesus' example would probably get kind of angry... and then they'd be risking judgment, according to Matthew 5:21,22.  So we've come full circle!)

You know you're right tonus. That is rather harsh.  God doesn't make the wars man does.  Even if the war is over God, it is the man that decides to fight and kill over it.  Even when they say the God they're fighting over commands them not to kill.  Boggles my mind. :? I try to love them, but it's not easy.  I get angry when I see what all this bad religion has done to mans relationship to God, because in my world, we all need each other to pass this test and so far we are not doing so good. Getting better, but we still have a long way to go.

It is hard to explain why God doesn't answer all prayers. That is why faith in His infinite knowledge through a crisis is so important.  When you loose faith you can not see it; it being God's Love.  Man see's dying as such a bad thing, I'm still afraid, I'm not ready, but  through my faith, that fear is slowly but surely fading away.  The one's we Love that we have lost are in Heaven, and that comforts my soul.  I know this is random but, that reminds me of the funerals where they are rejoicing for their lost loved one.  I look up at the sky sometimes and I can see my parents sitting on a cloud enjoying their new found freedom and I feel like I'm in the presence of something a lot bigger than "me".  It's kind of over whelming, but joyful all at the same time.  I know it would take me longer if it were my son I had to let go, and anger towards God would be understandable,  all anger towards God is, but nevertheless,  I would have to keep my faith to survive that, no doubt.

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #99 on: March 17, 2013, 10:26:28 AM »
@Junebug

that last portion about answering prayers, how do you reconcile that with children starving to death who's prayers go unanswered? I mean toddlers, 2, 3, 4... How do you respond to Christians who feel that god no longer interacts with the world in any detectable fashion?

God works through us, so when you see two grown men give their lives for a little boy you can take comfort in knowing those men did that out of Love and any action that is done for another out of Love is God working through us.  I'm sure God has His hand on those children and He tells us through the teachings of Jesus that when a child is put away by it's parents that He will take care of the child.  I believe that means He will take them into Heaven and they will be the mightiest in all of Heaven.  People need to quit having kids if they can't feed them.  In this country there are food stamps for people that can not buy their own food. Churches and shelters that feed the hungry in their service to God is evidence of God's love.  That is why we are supposed to give the credit to God when we  help our fellow man, instead of taking the thanks for ourselves.  So that it's not hard to see God's Love.  Those starving children are not suffering in vain either.  Through their suffering the human heart is softened and may very well eventually lead to peace on earth.  It is so sad that children or any human has had to die before mankind changes for the better. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #100 on: March 17, 2013, 12:23:41 PM »

God works through us, so when you see two grown men give their lives for a little boy you can take comfort in knowing those men did that out of Love and any action that is done for another out of Love is God working through us.  I'm sure God has His hand on those children and He tells us through the teachings of Jesus that when a child is put away by it's parents that He will take care of the child.  I believe that means He will take them into Heaven and they will be the mightiest in all of Heaven.  People need to quit having kids if they can't feed them.  In this country there are food stamps for people that can not buy their own food. Churches and shelters that feed the hungry in their service to God is evidence of God's love.  That is why we are supposed to give the credit to God when we  help our fellow man, instead of taking the thanks for ourselves.  So that it's not hard to see God's Love.  Those starving children are not suffering in vain either.  Through their suffering the human heart is softened and may very well eventually lead to peace on earth.  It is so sad that children or any human has had to die before mankind changes for the better. 

You kind of took this elsewhere, and made unsupported assertions. I do things out of love all the time while knowing there is no such thing as god, so that concept does not get the credit for what I do, nor do I care if anyone actually gets credit just so long as imaginary characters dont get credit. My stance is whoever does the act gets the credit if need be.

But you seem to agree with the idea that your god, even in your POV, has no detectable effect in our world, instead everything is done by people. With that I agree. Do you not see that you moving the goal posts for your god relieves him of any responsibility for that starving child. You see, no one needs to be taken care of in heaven, so that makes no sense, unless you believe that even in heaven people (or whatever you think people will be) are still dependent on others which defeats the purpose. You also suggest there is a caste system in heaven, dont you see that these systems of better and worse are a main problem here on earth? It seems as though your version of heaven is just earth again, no?

And I agree, if people cant take care of kids they shouldnt have them, except according to all Christians I know, each one of those kids is planned, even the ones that die during child birth. Or those that struggle for life for a few years then die a virtual skeleton. What you apparently fail to realize is there is a world outside of the US where there are no food banks, where children through no fault of their own starve despite the myth of Jesus loving the little children. Perhaps he should do his share, no? Make some fishes and bread appear, no?

And also to justify starving children with "softening the human heart" is scary and dare I say evil. You see the human condition is getting better and better as we move away from superstition and towards reality.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #101 on: March 17, 2013, 04:03:16 PM »
I see God more as a Scientist, a Master of all there is to know.
Do you accept that God has given us those scientific laws that explain the Universe?

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And it is quite magical when science creates new and amazing inventions that leave mankind in awed. 
"science" does not create anything. Men and women who understand science create all those awesome things, don't they.

Those brilliant men and women use scientific laws, don't they?

Now, creating an earth requires that you get the dirt from somewhere, doesn't it? So where does God get the dirt from, if it isn't magic?
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline Tonus

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #102 on: March 17, 2013, 09:18:00 PM »
First I think I should first explain my view on the Bible.  The Bible can be a good study guide but I believe whether or not it's the undisputed word of God is debatable.  After all the author of every book is human and unfortunately humans make mistakes.  I know this one's going to really blow you away. I believe God is the very one that opened my mind to this. Think of the Native American.  They are very spiritual people.  That's what God is all about, the spirit of a man, not the flesh.  They never had a Bible to read, but they understood that you need a clean spirit for a good afterlife. The spirit is what a person really is, not the outer vessel of flesh.  That is the basic foundation for all religion's of the world.  How can you really know God without studying them all?  I'll have to admit that I've been slacking the last few years, I found the answers I was looking for and just stopped studying.  I will have to say that finding those answers started a healing in me that I had been searching for, for a long time.
I'm glad for you, and I mean that genuinely.  If you've found something that makes life easier to cope with or better overall, good for you.  Some people --like me-- find our freedom in letting religion and god go, others find happiness in embracing it.  Obviously, we've ventured into areas where there isn't really anything to debate, as I already noted.  So I'll just say 'good luck' and leave it at that.

My feeling remains that it makes sense for the god of the universe, a loving god, a just god, a fair and honest god, to reveal himself to us plainly and fully.  Not to a few at a time, and only when they meet a strict and bizarre set of criteria that no one seems to understand.  But to everyone, in a manner that is not ambiguous or equivocal so that we know who he is and what he wants of us.  Surely, a being whose holy book demands so much from us would clear all matters up instead of leaving us to our own devices and punishing us for not reading his mind.  I have long since stopped waiting for that, and just gotten on with life.  Whatever works, eh?

Offline screwtape

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #103 on: March 18, 2013, 08:30:00 AM »
First I think I should first explain my view on the Bible.  The Bible can be a good study guide but I believe whether or not it's the undisputed word of God is debatable. 

A good study guide for what?  The Joy of Cooking may be a reasonably good study guide for recipes, and to some extent, cooking, but a terrible source for existentialist philosophy.   Ostensibly, the bible is a guide to what yhwh wants/ demands of his hebrew cult.  But if it is on shaky ground as to whether or not it represents what god wants, then in what way is it good as a study guide?

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #104 on: March 18, 2013, 09:42:37 AM »
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Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #105 on: March 24, 2013, 07:07:40 AM »
Quote
You kind of took this elsewhere, and made unsupported assertions. I do things out of love all the time while knowing there is no such thing as god, so that concept does not get the credit for what I do, nor do I care if anyone actually gets credit just so long as imaginary characters dont get credit. My stance is whoever does the act gets the credit if need be.

But you seem to agree with the idea that your god, even in your POV, has no detectable effect in our world, instead everything is done by people. With that I agree. Do you not see that you moving the goal posts for your god relieves him of any responsibility for that starving child. You see, no one needs to be taken care of in heaven, so that makes no sense, unless you believe that even in heaven people (or whatever you think people will be) are still dependent on others which defeats the purpose. You also suggest there is a caste system in heaven, dont you see that these systems of better and worse are a main problem here on earth? It seems as though your version of heaven is just earth again, no?

And I agree, if people cant take care of kids they shouldnt have them, except according to all Christians I know, each one of those kids is planned, even the ones that die during child birth. Or those that struggle for life for a few years then die a virtual skeleton. What you apparently fail to realize is there is a world outside of the US where there are no food banks, where children through no fault of their own starve despite the myth of Jesus loving the little children. Perhaps he should do his share, no? Make some fishes and bread appear, no?

And also to justify starving children with "softening the human heart" is scary and dare I say evil. You see the human condition is getting better and better as we move away from superstition and towards reality.

Hi Gawd,

Let me start by saying that I am certainly not evil.  I was not trying to justify starving children, the comment I made was in reference to"some"comfort.  It had absolutely nothing to do with justification.

I think if it gets to the point that God has to intervene the consequences for the rest of us could very well be mighty grim. Wouldn't it be better for all of us, I mean every single person on this planet, the whole human race if we stood together and demand change in the politics that have lead to poverty. There is a man by the name of Dr. Richard Wolfe, an economist that has some good ideas about how to put an end to poverty, and the only way we will do that is together.
 
The Christians I know say the same thing, God knows everything before it happens.  They also say we are not puppets on a string.  It is like much of the things they say, a contradiction.  One thing I've learned on my "vision quest" is that to know God you must rely on History and Science. You have to distinguish the rhetoric from the truth.  For example, I was watching two men on a Christian broadcast channel a couple of days ago, and they actually said that God promotes capitalism, I do not agree. I would not have known this except that I've done "my own" homework. Most importantly you have to have an open mind and heart. See to me, God understands why atheist are atheist and eternal torture is not on God's mind at all, AT ALL.  Right now it just takes 10 preachers to lead 300 people the wrong way. There are 10's of 1000's of preachers out there! You are better off to be an atheist than a brainwashed sheep of a sheep. God's love is not uneven though. He loves those brainwashed sheep and the misguided sheep that lead them.

God doesn't want to destroy us.  He wants us to learn from our mistakes.  There is a saying be careful what you ask God for.  Do you really need God to feed the children or should we come together and stand up against the politics that create poverty?  History of man according to the Bible tells us when God intervenes people die.  Could you handle that decision? Let's say you have 5 children.  Could you put the 2 oldest of them to death for letting the 3 youngest go hungry while you left them in their care?  Man's greed is the problem here people and there is something "WE" can do about that!
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #106 on: March 24, 2013, 07:19:59 AM »
Quote
Those brilliant men and women use scientific laws, don't they?

Now, creating an earth requires that you get the dirt from somewhere, doesn't it? So where does God get the dirt from, if it isn't magic?

Hi Graybeard,

I should have said scientist.  God got the dirt from the elements and His knowledge of science.  Everything He needed to create the earth was right there at His disposal. I do not know where God comes from, but I believe the answer will be revealed to me when I cross to the other side.  That is why faith is rewarded because God knows it's hard to believe in what you can not see, hear, or comprehend.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #107 on: March 24, 2013, 07:59:41 AM »
Quote
That is why faith is rewarded because God knows it's hard to believe in what you can not see, hear, or comprehend.

Except for when you can know and state with absolute certainty exactly what god knows. Makes sense.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #108 on: March 24, 2013, 08:27:39 AM »
Quote
Those brilliant men and women use scientific laws, don't they?

Now, creating an earth requires that you get the dirt from somewhere, doesn't it? So where does God get the dirt from, if it isn't magic?

Hi Graybeard,

I should have said scientist.  God got the dirt from the elements and His knowledge of science.  Everything He needed to create the earth was right there at His disposal. I do not know where God comes from, but I believe the answer will be revealed to me when I cross to the other side.  That is why faith is rewarded because God knows it's hard to believe in what you can not see, hear, or comprehend.

Interesting - so not only was god there before the universe was formed but there was also a long of other things in terms of information and so on. Now, two questions arise, June -

  • How did the god you are referring get to be there with all this information in order to be able to create anything. In other words, who or what created this creator? Whatever else one thinks, a creator would necessarily need to be the most complex object in whatever the space where the multi-verses exist is called - and certainly more complex than the sum total of our universe.
  • Where do you get your knowledge from to be able to tell us this information? How do you know that this god of your had lots of scientific information? Reading Genesis one gets the impression more of a magician who just says 'world, come into being' and it juts happens. So how do you know these things?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Tonus

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #109 on: March 24, 2013, 08:52:02 AM »
God doesn't want to destroy us.  He wants us to learn from our mistakes.  There is a saying be careful what you ask God for.  Do you really need God to feed the children or should we come together and stand up against the politics that create poverty?  History of man according to the Bible tells us when God intervenes people die.  Could you handle that decision? Let's say you have 5 children.  Could you put the 2 oldest of them to death for letting the 3 youngest go hungry while you left them in their care?  Man's greed is the problem here people and there is something "WE" can do about that!

Read up on the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.  They have donated billions of dollars to various humanitarian efforts, and have made quite a bit of progress in the fight against malaria.  It's a good example of how people around the globe are coming together to help solve problems and give needy people a helping hand and a fighting chance.

Humanity has been making progress, thanks to its own efforts and action.  Prayer makes people feel good.  Intelligently-applied knowledge through action actually does a lot of good.  I think humanity will use the latter to continue to make the world a better place.

Online JeffPT

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #110 on: March 24, 2013, 09:19:13 AM »
Let me start by saying that I am certainly not evil. 

If you worship a god that allows about 30,000 children to die every single day of starvation, millions to die every year of cancer and other ridiculously unnecessary conditions, then you've got to do better than simply asserting that you're not evil.  Perhaps you're not evil yourself, but you certainly condone it. 

I think if it gets to the point that God has to intervene the consequences for the rest of us could very well be mighty grim.

Why?  Please explain why it would be 'grim' to have God simply come down and give starving children some food?  Why would that be awful?  Be specific here.  What would be grim about that? 

And if that is really your position, then do you believe God never intervenes?  Do you believe he has ever intervened in your life?  And if he did, was it 'grim' when he did?   

Wouldn't it be better for all of us, I mean every single person on this planet, the whole human race if we stood together and demand change in the politics that have lead to poverty. There is a man by the name of Dr. Richard Wolfe, an economist that has some good ideas about how to put an end to poverty, and the only way we will do that is together.

Of course it would, but does Mr. Wolfe have omnipotence?  No?  Your God does, doesn't he?  What's the problem then?  Why would it be 'grim' for God to solve some of our problems, yet wonderful if Mr. Wolfe solved them? 

If God did not exist, would that not satisfactorily explain why starving children die and God does nothing to stop it?  A non-existent God wouldn't fix starvation either.  Doesn't that make infinitely more sense? 
 
The Christians I know say the same thing, God knows everything before it happens.  They also say we are not puppets on a string.  It is like much of the things they say, a contradiction. 

Follow that line of thought to it's logical end. 

One thing I've learned on my "vision quest" is that to know God you must rely on History and Science. You have to distinguish the rhetoric from the truth. For example, I was watching two men on a Christian broadcast channel a couple of days ago, and they actually said that God promotes capitalism, I do not agree.

What makes you right and them wrong?  Or vice versa?  Is it because you have factual evidence of God's position on capitalism versus other economic systems?  Or is it because you just believe it with all your heart that 'your god' would never promote capitalism?  Have you spoken directly to God to get his position?  If you are going to distinguish rhetoric from the truth, in this case, wouldn't you require direct evidence from God himself?  And if you don't have that, which I am 100% sure you don't, what process are you relying on to separate rhetoric from truth? 

The processes you use to distinguish rhetoric from truth is what makes all the difference. 

I would not have known this except that I've done "my own" homework.

And you're saying they haven't? 

Most importantly you have to have an open mind and heart.

Being open minded means considering that your positions may or may not be correct.  Is it possible for you to admit that you could be wrong about God?  If not, then you're not open minded. 

See to me, God understands why atheist are atheist and eternal torture is not on God's mind at all, AT ALL. 

That is because that's the god you want to worship.  You don't like the idea of worshiping a God that eternally tortures.  You are super-imposing the God you wish were true onto your beliefs, when in reality, what you would like to believe about God has no bearing at all on what God is actually like.  If God were not real, then saying we are going to be tortured for eternity is just stupid.  It's of absolutely no concern to me.  Heaven and Hell are fake.  It's not even a remote concern. 

Right now it just takes 10 preachers to lead 300 people the wrong way. There are 10's of 1000's of preachers out there! You are better off to be an atheist than a brainwashed sheep of a sheep. God's love is not uneven though. He loves those brainwashed sheep and the misguided sheep that lead them.

Or God doesn't exist at all and preachers are all telling their flocks what they, themselves believe instead of what the actual truth is.  And it's so funny how secure you seem to be in all of this.  How confident you are in thinking that you've got it right and everyone else has it wrong.  What makes you think, even for a moment, that you are doing it right and all those others are doing it wrong?  Seriously... I'd like to know that.   

God doesn't want to destroy us.  He wants us to learn from our mistakes.

For what?  What purpose does it serve God for us to learn from our mistakes?  Learning from mistakes is inherently beneficial for humans, not for God.  If God did not exist, we would still be better off learning from our mistakes.  So you saying that GOD wants us to learn from our mistakes, is nothing more than again super-imposing something that we all think is good onto your fictitious supernatural deity. 

There is a saying be careful what you ask God for.  Do you really need God to feed the children or should we come together and stand up against the politics that create poverty?

And do you really understand that a being that stands over the emaciated bodies of starving children, all the while with the power to fix it, and does nothing, is evil? 

What would you think of God if he came down, right now and gave a starving child some food?  What would you think of him?  Would you think... "How awful is that!  God, what are you doing!?  That's so... grim... of you to feed that starving child"?  No.  You'd love it.  So would I.  But that's not God.  God stands idly by and watches them die as the family screams out in agony. 

God isn't real.  That's why starving children die.  Humanity could stop it, but that's an answer an atheist gives, not a Christian. 

History of man according to the Bible tells us when God intervenes people die.

The bible is just a book with claims in it.  Those claims have to be studied in order to distinguish rhetoric from the truth.  As you said.  Perhaps you should do that. 

Let's say you have 5 children.  Could you put the 2 oldest of them to death for letting the 3 youngest go hungry while you left them in their care?

What does that have to do with anything you're talking about?

Man's greed is the problem here people and there is something "WE" can do about that!

Here are 2 available solutions.   

1.  Man fixes hunger by technological advances, better politics, improved sanitation, etc, etc.  This is incredibly hard to put into action and requires immense amounts of work that, in the end, may actually doom the planet from overpopulation. 

2.  God fixes hunger with the snap of his fingers.  This requires zero effort on anyone's part.

You keep saying it... over and over again... that it's mans problem to solve.  If it's man's problem to solve, then fine.  I agree with you that it's man's problem to solve.  But what if one man had omnipotence and chose NOT to solve that problem?  What would you think of him?  That's your God.   It may not be the God you like, but if God exists, the one that actually exists has the power to end hunger with a single thought and CHOOSES not to.  Why would any sane person worship that?  Stop 'believing in your heart' that God is good and start using your brain to figure these things out.  You just might be a sheep, who's been led to believe certain things about a God that really might not be up there.  And if he is up there, you really might be justified in condemning him. 

Let me be perfectly clear... the God you worship as the greatest being in all the universe, allows massive suffering and death on a global scale, and does nothing to stop it.  If he exists at all, that is the absolute truth.  It is a fact.  There is no getting around it.  If you were a moral human being who truly believes in God, then you should be condemning God for that, but you choose not to.  Why?  You might be evil.  You might be immoral.  Or you just might be brainwashed to believe that God is good and everything in your life revolves around that, so you work to excuse the evil instead of condemning it.  The people in Hitler's Germany were also brainwashed to think of him as good too.  Did you ever stop to think that maybe you've been duped like that too?  Probably not. 

You can 'believe in your heart' that God is good all you want, but actions are what should be judged here.  Not your feelings. 

I ask again... If God was not real, would that explain why he doesn't help starving children?  Just think about that, please.  No excuse you can come up with to explain away why God doesn't help starving children is better at explaining why there are starving children than simply admitting that God isn't real. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #111 on: March 24, 2013, 09:20:11 AM »
Quote
I'm glad for you, and I mean that genuinely.  If you've found something that makes life easier to cope with or better overall, good for you.  Some people --like me-- find our freedom in letting religion and god go, others find happiness in embracing it.  Obviously, we've ventured into areas where there isn't really anything to debate, as I already noted.  So I'll just say 'good luck' and leave it at that.

My feeling remains that it makes sense for the god of the universe, a loving god, a just god, a fair and honest god, to reveal himself to us plainly and fully.  Not to a few at a time, and only when they meet a strict and bizarre set of criteria that no one seems to understand.  But to everyone, in a manner that is not ambiguous or equivocal so that we know who he is and what he wants of us.  Surely, a being whose holy book demands so much from us would clear all matters up instead of leaving us to our own devices and punishing us for not reading his mind.  I have long since stopped waiting for that, and just gotten on with life.  Whatever works, eh?

Thanks Tonus, that really means a lot to me. I am also glad that you have found peace as well.

The bible is clear on what God wants from us. To LOVE Him and to LOVE each other.  What is so complicated about that? Jesus gave His life so that WE could know that.  Could you imagine a world where we all looked out for each other.  That's the way it was before money was invented.  It took the whole tribe working together to survive. Now a days if several million people have to live in poverty so that a few can be so rich, so what.  That is a long way from our humble beginning.

You know when I was 16 and pregnant with my son, I wanted my parents to help me but they didn't.  It hurt like hell.  I couldn't understand why my parents that were supposed to love me didn't save me from myself.  Why won't God help me? Hind sight being 20/20 I learned valuable skills that help me be strong in the eyes of heartache, and I've had my share, that I would not have acquired had they done it for me.  The relationship between God and man is like the relationship between a parent and a child.  Our parents know what's best for us when we do not.  Even though it hurts you have to let your children make mistakes so they can learn. Just a year ago my son got hooked on pain pills.  He was intolerable.  I had to cut him off and boy was he mad at me!  It didn't take long for him to realize that I did it because I loved him and it was not easy for me to let him be homeless and hungry.  This eventually brought us closer to one another.  This is so small compared to God's task of fathering, what is it now 7 billion people. I know He brought it on Himself by creating us, I don't think God is complaining about His task, I am just asking you to understand it? Sometimes the best thing you can do for someone you love is nothing! 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #112 on: March 24, 2013, 09:32:50 AM »
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Read up on the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.  They have donated billions of dollars to various humanitarian efforts, and have made quite a bit of progress in the fight against malaria.  It's a good example of how people around the globe are coming together to help solve problems and give needy people a helping hand and a fighting chance.

Humanity has been making progress, thanks to its own efforts and action.  Prayer makes people feel good.  Intelligently-applied knowledge through action actually does a lot of good.  I think humanity will use the latter to continue to make the world a better place.

I am so glad you feel that way.  That is exactly what God wants us to do.  Get tired of waiting on Him and take care of ourselves!

And I'm sure God is very proud of the Gates for their contribution, and any one that has taken a part in helping children.  More proud of the atheist doing it, because they are doing it simply because it's the right thing to do, not to get a mansion in heaven, how noble.  We all want our lives to mean something.  I still say your all going to Heaven like it or not.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #113 on: March 24, 2013, 10:30:17 AM »
Junebug

I have to ask. If we are supposed to fix everything ourselves, why did he part the Red Sea for Moses and the gang? Shouldn't they have found their own way across the waters? Granted, he forgot to tell that group of half a million people where to go once they had escaped the alleged oppression, but that one act of parting the sea seems to indicate a willingness to occasionally step in and say lend a hand.

And what about the times when no amount of human intervention could fix the problem. Tsunamis and earthquakes that kill hundreds of thousands, starvation 500 years ago when there as no human infrastructure to fix the problem, diseases like the black plague of the same period, which were far beyond the ken of humans? The death and destruction caused by disease brought by Europeans to the native populations of North and South America? There was nothing humanly available to stop or control those diseases that killed so many when white men first set shores on the western continents. Later we whites used disease on purpose to wipe out native populations, but initially it was something nobody could have controlled. How is a god letting us handle it ourselves when we have no capacity to do so a sign of his everlasting love?

My list goes on and on. I keep getting told that we have free will, but no christian yet has told me why a bad guy's free will is of more importance than the free will of the six year old child he rapes and murders. Nobody has yet explained why a bad leader has the free will to start an unjust war and bomb another country back the stone age while the average citizen in the bombed country has no control whatsoever over the situation.

Your god, as per the bible, used to love us so much that he was willing to turn the occasional disobedient woman into a pillar of salt and tweet a message of hope to Daniel while he was in his cell. He was able to sweet talk lions into foregoing lunch and feed folks a nice meal that one time without resorting to food stamps. Today he is like Chancey in Being There. He just likes to watch. Is he as confused about what love is as he is about everything else? Shouldn't a real god be a bit less ineffective? Couldn't a god who can foresee everything kind of, you know, tweaked our DNA a bit to make us a bit more to his liking? Should have been a cinch.

And on top of all that, he forces you to come up with excuse after excuse for his inaction. How loving is that?

Edit: for clarity

« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 10:32:16 AM by ParkingPlaces »
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #114 on: March 24, 2013, 10:42:49 AM »
MODERATOR EDIT: Overly long quote trimmed.  Please keep quoted material to a minimum.

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I ask again... If God was not real, would that explain why he doesn't help starving children?  Just think about that, please.  No excuse you can come up with to explain away why God doesn't help starving children is better at explaining why there are starving children than simply admitting that God isn't real.

Well I guess you told me.  Never thought believing in God made me evil.  Interesting concept.  I am not going to be angry with you for insulting me to the core, but instead I will be understanding.

Yes you could look at it that way, but my path has revealed a much different conclusion.  Through my faith I will believe there is a purpose for your revelation as well.  I believe that God wants us to take care of each other, not do it for us. I don't believe it is an easy thing for God to do. 

Why is it okay for you not to believe the norm, but for me not to, I am dumb.  We were both handed the same information and got opposite conclusions.  How did I get to a different conclusion than you?  Probably because the information might be the same but we are on a different path.  I was searching for God and you were searching for the non-existence of God.  We both found what we were looking for.  We were both comforted by what we found is the only common link between our journeys.

I still don't see how believing how God doing nothing is what is best for the whole human race is evil.  So I guess I shouldn't have cut my son off from my support when he got hooked on pills.  The alternative of enabling was a better choice?  If God fixed our problems it would be no different. We would never be on our own to earn and deserve the promise of Heaven.  We would always need God there to fix us when we break ourselves.  See we just see the small, God sees the bigger picture.  Oh it's okay to make lots and lots of money while others starve because God will feed those children.  I know it's hard to understand but it is not evil.  I am even surprised to hear an atheist use the word evil, without God is there good and evil? My thoughts, without a God,it is simply human nature and I would not be good or evil I would just be doing what comes natural and have no responsibility for my thoughts or my actions.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 01:06:13 PM by pianodwarf »
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #115 on: March 24, 2013, 12:30:32 PM »
Junebug

I have to ask. If we are supposed to fix everything ourselves, why did he part the Red Sea for Moses and the gang? Shouldn't they have found their own way across the waters? Granted, he forgot to tell that group of half a million people where to go once they had escaped the alleged oppression, but that one act of parting the sea seems to indicate a willingness to occasionally step in and say lend a hand.

And what about the times when no amount of human intervention could fix the problem. Tsunamis and earthquakes that kill hundreds of thousands, starvation 500 years ago when there as no human infrastructure to fix the problem, diseases like the black plague of the same period, which were far beyond the ken of humans? The death and destruction caused by disease brought by Europeans to the native populations of North and South America? There was nothing humanly available to stop or control those diseases that killed so many when white men first set shores on the western continents. Later we whites used disease on purpose to wipe out native populations, but initially it was something nobody could have controlled. How is a god letting us handle it ourselves when we have no capacity to do so a sign of his everlasting love?

My list goes on and on. I keep getting told that we have free will, but no christian yet has told me why a bad guy's free will is of more importance than the free will of the six year old child he rapes and murders. Nobody has yet explained why a bad leader has the free will to start an unjust war and bomb another country back the stone age while the average citizen in the bombed country has no control whatsoever over the situation.

Your god, as per the bible, used to love us so much that he was willing to turn the occasional disobedient woman into a pillar of salt and tweet a message of hope to Daniel while he was in his cell. He was able to sweet talk lions into foregoing lunch and feed folks a nice meal that one time without resorting to food stamps. Today he is like Chancey in Being There. He just likes to watch. Is he as confused about what love is as he is about everything else? Shouldn't a real god be a bit less ineffective? Couldn't a god who can foresee everything kind of, you know, tweaked our DNA a bit to make us a bit more to his liking? Should have been a cinch.

And on top of all that, he forces you to come up with excuse after excuse for his inaction. How loving is that?

Edit: for clarity

What did the people do after witnessing the parting of the red sea? I believe while in the wilderness they lost faith even after witnessing the power of God.  Time after time in the bible we see when God interferes things are good for a while and then things go right back to crap.  Abraham's people got put right back into being overthrown by Rome, because they forgot to stay close to God.  Not all of them did, but the ones that were given power did.  They cared more about their earthly stature than their relationship to God.  This created hardship on the people.  That is where we are right now.  The people that have been given the power abuse it for their own indulgence and do not care if people suffer because of it.  I say the only way for God to fix us is to leave us be.  We will either destroy one another or save one another it is up to us. Do you really think God's way of saving starving children would be just to make them some food.  That he wouldn't bother scorning the rest of us for letting it happen?  Come on now!  The way I see it what you people want is Armageddon.  Denying God's existence is not what needs to be done for those kids.  Don't you see that by not standing together being divided by beliefs gets us nowhere.  Tolerance of greed is the responsibility of us all. If Every person out there that makes less than 2 million dollars a year could simply stand together against the billion dollar corps. that want all the money.  I wish they had it so there would be none left to spend and they would have to close their doors.  The gentleman I referred to earlier, Dr. Richard Wolfe, I don't know what his religion is but he knows his economics.  He has a website and I encourage all those in favor of ending poverty to check him out.  He thinks it's time to consider an alternative to capitalism and He makes some very good points.  Take Care.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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