Author Topic: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself  (Read 20496 times)

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Offline Grimm

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2012, 09:30:58 PM »
You see, sister, I've got better things to do with my time than to blame religion for the world;'s problems and my own problems as well.

I have a life, and will not always be here to answer promptly to a valid point in the midst of invalid ones.

I've been teaching myself Linux, which requires reading and learning. Try it some time. Get a life.
Stop crying like babies and step out into the universe.

... oh good gravy.

Euroclydon, I'm a certified Linux admin and an IT professional managing several thousand users across three states and twelve facilities, most with mission-critical systems.  I read two to three novel-length books a week, and blahblahblah...

If you think that makes me somehow qualified for awesomeness... it doesn't.   Not in the slightest.  It doesn't mean anything except that I'm competent at my job.

And if you think a screenshot of Firefox, your process tree, a filesystem manager, and your MP3 player on transparent terminal panels under Linux mint is /impressive/, somehow, you are in for a world of shock when you actually get done with that learnin' there, son.

You want to impress people with your knowledge?  Posting desktop screenies that include a couple of pachinko machines and some simple scripting hacks ain't exactly doing it.
"But to us, there is but one god, plus or minus one."  - 1 Corinthians 8:6+/-2

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Online Emily

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2012, 10:27:04 PM »
You see, sister, I've got better things to do with my time than to blame religion for the world;'s problems and my own problems as well.

I have a life, and will not always be here to answer promptly to a valid point in the midst of invalid ones.

I've been teaching myself Linux, which requires reading and learning. Try it some time. Get a life.



Ahm.... didn't you say that you are learning Ubuntu or some variation of it?

I hate to burst your bubble but there really ins't much of a learning curve needed in any Ubuntu/Debian based distros.

Do you want a challenge: Try Slackware or Solaris (Unix) Gentoo is a bitch too.

EDIT: (stupid joke) you probably think the Linux man command means - MAN I'M AWESOME AT LINUX!

also........ I'd like to know the reason behind your little Linux outburst. Several of us here use Linux, myself included. Some of us here (from what I've read) are network admins (myself included). So your Linux comment is pretty out of place. Perhaps I'm taking it a bit too personal.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 10:40:10 PM by Emily »
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Offline Grimm

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2012, 06:46:22 AM »
You see, sister, I've got better things to do with my time than to blame religion for the world;'s problems and my own problems as well.

I have a life, and will not always be here to answer promptly to a valid point in the midst of invalid ones.

I've been teaching myself Linux, which requires reading and learning. Try it some time. Get a life.



Ahm.... didn't you say that you are learning Ubuntu or some variation of it?

(Edit:  His screenshot shows) Mint.  It is, indeed, a Debian-based distro; it's an Ubuntu fork that comes with most hardware support out-of-the-box.  It's not bad - I like its esthetic better than Ubuntu, mostly (really, I know, it's shallow) because I prefer green to brown.

And I like its fonts.  Yay pretty fonts!

Quote

I hate to burst your bubble but there really ins't much of a learning curve needed in any Ubuntu/Debian based distros.

Do you want a challenge: Try Slackware or Solaris (Unix) Gentoo is a bitch too.

You ain't kiddin', sister.   Slackware, after all these years, still makes me bitch and moan.  Maybe I'm just lazy, but I still prefer the FreeBSD or Debian stacks - I get tired of futzing with drivers.

Good learning experience, though.

Then again, I still remember the days when the Linux community was all, "Xwindows is crap!  The command line is all anyone ever needs!"  Funny how /that/ didn't stick.

Quote
EDIT: (stupid joke) you probably think the Linux man command means - MAN I'M AWESOME AT LINUX!

A man with a cat and a grep walked into a pipe...

Quote
also........ I'd like to know the reason behind your little Linux outburst. Several of us here use Linux, myself included. Some of us here (from what I've read) are network admins (myself included). So your Linux comment is pretty out of place. Perhaps I'm taking it a bit too personal.

I didn't know!  You're going to have to eventually spill what systems you're working with, you know, that we may take over a corner of the WWGHA forum and geek at each other.

Maybe we need a "holycrap, this ticket I got today" topic. :)  If it's any consolation, though, I took that very personally as well.  Knowing computers doesn't make you somehow brilliant or superior - and I had that impression from his post, y'know?
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Offline jeremy0

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2012, 01:19:42 PM »
I always find it amusing when those that preach about religion can't ever follow their own teachings...

But then they hold you to it when they do it.  The reality is, we would have to forgive this Jesus a hell of a lot, even though he was tortured to death, since all of this Christian history is written in insanity and blood, and the promise of eternal torture - even for small shit. 

My take is this - why, after reading the bible, do we still ignore the facts and continue with the belief?  I would say it's because we wish some parts were true, and are saying shit - if this is true then I had better believe in it...

These are barriers to rational thought - strong emotion...
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
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Offline euroclydon

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2012, 02:29:40 PM »
You're here, too.  A bit of logic for you:

Premise #1:  Arguing on this forum means that one has no life.
Premise #2:  Euroclydon argues on this forum.
Conclusion from #1 and #2:  Euroclydon has no life.

The conclusion is false.  Premise #2 is accurate.  Therefore, premise #1 must be false.  Agreed?

You forgot premise #0 , suggested by the other poster:

Premise #0 Arguing on this forum means responding within a certain time frame and to individual satisfactions.
Premise #1:  Arguing on this forum means that one has no life.
Premise #2:  Euroclydon argues on this forum.
Conclusion from #1 and #2:  Euroclydon has no life.

You "conclusion" is no longer valid by the first premise #0

BOOM!

I'm telling ya, I gots the tools!

Next...
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 02:31:20 PM by euroclydon »

Offline Illuminatus99

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2012, 03:10:53 PM »
Do you want a challenge: Try Slackware or Solaris (Unix) Gentoo is a bitch too.


Meh, I'd go with SCO or AIX :) I'm betting the guy has never had to compile his own kernel or write his own drivers.

Offline Illuminatus99

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2012, 03:20:52 PM »
In response to the OP... Without proving the existence of jesus in the first  place any argument about what he may have said or not said, and whether or not he contradicted himself is moot. It's not that much different than trying to argue over who would win in a fight between darth vader and an intellectually honest theist.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2012, 03:46:09 PM »
You forgot premise #0 , suggested by the other poster: ...

No, I just never included that premise in the first place.  You can't invalidate someone's syllogism just by forcibly adding an extra, unsupported premise.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 03:48:02 PM by Azdgari »
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Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2012, 04:02:56 PM »
A fallacy exists only when there is insufficient evidence to support the claim.

Nonsense.

Fallacies are errors in reasoning, errors in the logical structure of the argument.

Nothing to do with the truth of the premises or the evidence presented to support them.



You don't appear to know what you're talking about.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 04:38:12 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline GamerGirl

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2012, 09:48:31 PM »
You see... I am glad I was busy earlier this year and didn't bother taking the time to read this thread.  Euroclydon is rude and his arguments nonsensical--what an amusing caricature of a logical debater.

In response to the OP... Without proving the existence of jesus in the first  place any argument about what he may have said or not said, and whether or not he contradicted himself is moot. It's not that much different than trying to argue over who would win in a fight between darth vader and an intellectually honest theist.

Yes, but the difference is that most people agree that Darth Vader is a fictional character; whereas, most people believe Jesus is a real person, at least based upon the sheer number of reported Christians on earth.

Jesus is an interesting character in an interesting story, but I think Zeus, Persephone, and Medusa are on the same level as Jesus (i.e. just as fictional), and much more interesting.  But the Jesus dude seems like a nice enough fictional guy who had some decent teachings.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2012, 10:12:21 AM »
http://www.answering-christianity.com/abdullah_smith/jesus_contradicts_himself.htm

I just googled what some Arab said.



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Offline Sarevok

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2013, 11:48:21 PM »
Hang on, how is it a contradiction?

As you quoted (my emphasis added) "And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.". He nowhere says calling someone a fool will send you to the fires of hell, just that it puts you "in danger" of the fire of hell.

I think a similar comparison can be drawn:
I say that "playing with fire could get you burnt", and I precede to play with fire. I'm not contradicting myself, I'm basically ignoring my own advise, and could well get myself burnt in the process.
That as opposed to if I'd said:
"Playing with fire makes you a fool, and I am no fool", but I then play with fire. I am contradicting myself in this instance.

Offline GamerGirl

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2013, 04:39:47 PM »
That is a fair comparison.

Why not practice what he preaches? He's telling people that it's dangerous to do one thing, then he does it.  That'd be like me telling my children not to touch the stove when it's on because it's hot, and then going and touching it in front of them when it's on in front of them.  Or... like, it's foolish to not wear you seat belt in the car, and then go ahead and not wear it in front of them.  Why?

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2013, 06:16:59 PM »
Quote
I've been teaching myself Linux, which requires reading and learning. Try it some time. Get a life.

How did I manage to miss this gem of a theist? This level of arrogance might have been fun to play with. This guy hasn't got the time to bother with us because he's learning Linux. How much of his time is it taking him to learn it? Most of us here manage to find time to argue, do our research, read up on science, religion and philosophy AND learn new hobbies, continue old ones, go to work, feed ourselves, study (for any students) and have a social life. My God, I feel so stupid for being a WWGHA member, well, excuse me ladies and gents, what am I doing logged into Windows 8 and posting this message!? Hot damn, Windows 8 is for morons! I best boot up on my Ubuntu partition and writing this message in C++ code using Codeblocks! Or I would, but it'd mean I have to boot up my other laptop, because it's the one with the partition and I cannae be arsed grabbing it.

Hang on, how is it a contradiction?

As you quoted (my emphasis added) "And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.". He nowhere says calling someone a fool will send you to the fires of hell, just that it puts you "in danger" of the fire of hell.

I think a similar comparison can be drawn:
I say that "playing with fire could get you burnt", and I precede to play with fire. I'm not contradicting myself, I'm basically ignoring my own advise, and could well get myself burnt in the process.
That as opposed to if I'd said:
"Playing with fire makes you a fool, and I am no fool", but I then play with fire. I am contradicting myself in this instance.

Drink driving is a dangerous affair. Would somebody who says, "if you drink and drive, you'd be putting yourself and others in danger" by a hypocrite if they then went out on a binge and sat behind the wheel...even if he manages to get off okay without running down a few school children. If it was your driving instructor, I am sure he'd lose his job.

I mean, if we were to take the argument that this isn't a contradiction, then arguably no sin can really be bad so long as you're willing to suffer the consequences. But isn't hell for sinners? Jesus warns of a great number of things that would send one to hell and so does the old testament - God is very keen on being wrathful to those who do things he doesn't like. Any action where you'd put yourself at risk of being sent to hell is clearly a wrong doing in the eyes of the Lord, unless of course he's doing it for kicks. Whilst my opinion of bible-God isn't very high, because I think there are many horrific traits I don't think he's getting off on people suffering for the sake of people suffering. I get that he's vengeful and very egotistical in the bible, but the bible doesn't suggest to me that he derives pleasure from it. So I doubt he's added the risk for kicks.

So, God's only son, who is but a man, would happily sin whilst teaching men not to sin. But it's not really a case of not following his own advice (generally, people who don't follow their own advice are hypocrites, I don't always follow mine and when I don't, that makes ME a hypocrite), because it is God, his father (or for those who believe in the holy trinity, himself) made these rules he was sent to bring. There's nothing to say Jesus, who is considered a man in the bible, is exempt from these rules, as already suggested.

And the bible does state that Jesus has not come to change the law, but to enforce it, yet at times he's seemingly above the law.
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Offline Sarevok

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2013, 06:06:08 PM »
I think Jesus is alluding to the point that if you have this attitude it maybe reflecting other areas of your life that would be sending you to hell, such as unforgiveness. Also, he's statement and yours are different to an extent. He is talking about someone's attitude toward someone else. You are talking about a physical action, which if you lost control, would directly affect others. Calling someone a fool isn't going to injure them (except maybe emotionally), loosing control and crashing into someone else is going to directly affect their life.

Interesting logic, but I think there is an issue with it. "no sin can really be bad so long as you're willing to suffer the consequences", the bible outlines the consequences of sin, which is without forgiveness, being sent to hell. Also, Jesus never said calling someone a fool was a sin. As I said, he simply outlined that if you have that attitude, chances are, you will do other things that will send you to hell.
You say that "Jesus warns of a great number of things that would send one to hell and so does the old testament", but he never said calling someone a full would send you to hell, like I outlined above.
What "horrific traits" are you talking about exactly? I think you may have the wrong impression (at least, that is my impression)

Where did Jesus explicitly commit a sin? I mean, Pilot confessed that he found no law that Jesus broke, so I'm curious where you feel he fell down. Again, Jesus was saying that calling someone a fool could indicate a deeper problem, and that he wasn't a hypocrite. Even assuming that he is, can you show where hypocrisy is listed as a sin?

"And the bible does state that Jesus has not come to change the law, but to enforce it, yet at times he's seemingly above the law." Care to share the verses where you believe this is the case?

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2013, 06:30:44 PM »
Seppuku, it's not technically a contradiction, because "in danger of" is wishy-washy language.  How high do the odds of something have to be to qualify as "danger of" that thing?  One could say that to fly in an airplane is to be in danger of dying in a crash.  By any intuitive standard, that risk is not a danger.  But it's more than zero.

A danger of X happening is not falsified by an observation of X not happening.
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Offline Mooby

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2013, 07:14:07 PM »


"22 [...]And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." Matthew 5:22

"40 You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?"  Luke 11:40

"17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?" Matthew 23:17

"25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken!" Luke 24:25

Any other instances you've found where Jesus contradicts himself?
Nothing like a good old-fashioned quote mine to show confidence in one's own positions.  Not even the entire verse was quoted.

Here's some analysis.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2013, 11:16:01 PM »
Here's some analysis.

Don't care what it says.  I believe it is a contradiction and nothing can change my mind.
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Offline Mooby

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2013, 11:43:57 PM »
Good luck changing anyone else's.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2013, 09:47:32 AM »
Good luck changing anyone else's.

hey, they have their own truth, I have mine.  They have their own reality, I have mine.  And really, we should all respect each other's beliefs.  Right?
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Offline Mooby

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2013, 10:03:50 PM »
If you believe they have a separate reality from you, I respect that.  If you believe you share a reality, then you may have to internally reconcile the above claim at some point.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #50 on: January 09, 2013, 11:20:57 AM »
That was my inner-theist talking.  I do not believe in separate truths or realities.  I especially do not believe in the idea of respecting all beliefs.  That would be idiotic.  Only some beliefs are respectable.
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Offline Mooby

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #51 on: January 09, 2013, 03:20:44 PM »
That was my inner-theist talking.
No, it was your inner caricature of a theist talking.  It's about as accurate as a theist pretending to be a nihilistic amoral god-hater and claiming it's their inner atheist talking.
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Offline Sarevok

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #52 on: January 09, 2013, 05:33:42 PM »
I'm confused screwtape. Are you saying that any proofs/arguments that demonstrate what Jesus said isn't a contradiction will always be dismissed by yourself? Or are you just being difficult to Mooby  :P
I ask, as I'm working out of you want an answer, or an argument.

Offline Mooby

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #53 on: January 09, 2013, 09:41:02 PM »
He's trying to get me to make a reply that he feels he can turn around and apply to me.


Sort of like this:

Screwtape: Something silly.
Mooby: That's silly because X.
Scewtape: *Holds up mirror* X is you.
Mooby: OMG of course!  Your straw man is perfect analogue!  Religion is a silly!  I are atheist now!

I can hold out pretty well in a war of attrition, though.  So he'll have to work a bit harder to score his points.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 09:43:38 PM by Mooby »
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2013, 07:45:38 AM »
Mooby, it would help if we hadn't had numerous theists taking sillier versions of exactly the position Screwtape is mocking.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2013, 09:52:36 AM »
That was my inner-theist talking.
No, it was your inner caricature of a theist talking.  It's about as accurate as a theist pretending to be a nihilistic amoral god-hater and claiming it's their inner atheist talking.

Mooby, you should know that there are tons and tons and tons of xians who come in here and say the exact things I said, verbatim.  That might not be you (I never said or implied it was) or all xians, but they definitely and unquestionably exist in large numbers. 

I'm confused screwtape. Are you saying that any proofs/arguments that demonstrate what Jesus said isn't a contradiction will always be dismissed by yourself? Or are you just being difficult to Mooby 
I ask, as I'm working out of you want an answer, or an argument.

I'm teasing the Moobster. 

I want a correct understanding of reality, and that includes religion.  I would not want to reject xianity based on a misunderstanding.  Fortunately, there are plenty of solid, valid reasons to reject xianity, even if Mooby is right about the few to which he objected.

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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2013, 05:31:57 PM »
Screwtape, Mooby is a magic and woo believer, so lots of handwaving and finesse is par.
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Offline Mooby

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2013, 07:03:03 PM »
Mooby doesn't believe in magic.  He woos his girlfriend constantly, though.  ;)
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.