Author Topic: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself  (Read 19016 times)

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Offline GamerGirl

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Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« on: June 09, 2012, 10:57:05 PM »


"22 [...]And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." Matthew 5:22

"40 You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?"  Luke 11:40

"17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?" Matthew 23:17

"25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken!" Luke 24:25

Any other instances you've found where Jesus contradicts himself?

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2012, 11:20:17 PM »
Jesus did go to hell, at least in old Catholic lore.. Google "the Harrowing of Hell."
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Offline GamerGirl

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2012, 12:31:33 AM »
Jesus did go to hell, at least in old Catholic lore.. Google "the Harrowing of Hell."

Okay, but was he at any risk from its fires?

Offline euroclydon

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2012, 09:24:28 AM »
Quote from: GamerGirl

"22 [...
And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." Matthew 5:22

"40 You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?"  Luke 11:40

"17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?" Matthew 23:17

"25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken!" Luke 24:25

Any other instances you've found where Jesus contradicts himself?

FALLACY: a dicto simpliciter ad dictum secundum quid Destroying the Exception.

If the Son of Man is the One who comes in Judgment, it is irrational to believe he is the object of the Judgment.

Matt 28:18 "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

The reasoning is unsound.

EDITED to change "the reasoning is unsound" from "your reasoning &c".
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 10:33:15 AM by euroclydon »

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2012, 12:26:23 PM »

If the Son of Man is the One who comes in Judgment, it is irrational to believe he is the object of the Judgment.

Cool, since he wasn't the object of the judgment, he didn't bare the sin and shame of mankind and the whole sacrifice story is stupid bullshit.. I get what you're saying.. NOT!
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Offline sun_king

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2012, 01:35:59 PM »
Oh Brakeman, our fallacy expert will soon have a name for your argument.

Since he is the one making the judgement, his statements are not fallacies!!!

Offline Nam

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2012, 07:00:31 PM »
It's not a contradiction, it's a hypocritical statement.

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Offline euroclydon

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2012, 08:18:15 PM »

If the Son of Man is the One who comes in Judgment, it is irrational to believe he is the object of the Judgment.

Cool, since he wasn't the object of the judgment, he didn't bare the sin and shame of mankind and the whole sacrifice story is stupid bullshit.. I get what you're saying.. NOT!

FALLACY:
Invalid conclusion. Appeal to Ridicule.

Offline Emily

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2012, 08:29:54 PM »

FALLACY:
Invalid conclusion. Appeal to Ridicule.

You've said this four times so far. It's no wonder NSC told you to shut the fuck up: you repeat yourself too much.

I know, this will be a FALLACY: Appeal to ridicule.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 08:31:48 PM by Emily »
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Offline euroclydon

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2012, 08:30:23 PM »
 :
It's not a contradiction, it's a hypocritical statement.

-Nam

FALLACY: a dicto simpliciter ad dictum secundum quidDestroying the Exception.

Offline euroclydon

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2012, 08:31:47 PM »

FALLACY:
Invalid conclusion. Appeal to Ridicule.

You've said this four times so far. It's no wonder NSC told you to shut the fuck up: you repeat yourself too much.

I actually never used that one with him.

I think it was when he realized that his arguments were based on childish assumptions and leaps of illogic, just like this place, and just couldn't stand to hear how stupid he was anymore.

Offline euroclydon

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2012, 08:37:54 PM »
Quote

You've said this four times so far. It's no wonder NSC told you to shut the fuck up: you repeat yourself too much.

I know, this will be a FALLACY: Appeal to ridicule.

This is a non sequitur, but how many times have theists - and rightfully so - heard "that's circular reasoning"

You should put it to music.

I haven't made any circular arguments, and I haven't heard an intelligent thought from many of you.

Offline Emily

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2012, 08:40:39 PM »
I haven't made any circular arguments, and I haven't heard an intelligent thought from many of you.

and you keep on repeating youself, and ignoring others' arguments against your points.

Like, Seppuku's for example:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,22951.msg512527.html#msg512527
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Offline sun_king

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2012, 08:51:24 PM »
Euroclydon, what is your opinion on Special Pleading? Thats what you did when you made JC the exception. It was merely a case of special pleading, not "destroying the exception". Try to get your fallacies right once in a while.

Its lame to expect intelligent response to special pleading.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2012, 09:11:17 PM »
Gosh, folks. We have a guy who is both a theist and a labelist. And we're pretty awful, apparently (I assume he refers to us as awfulists).

I don't know what you're reading euroclydon, but stop. (I'm guessing "Logic for Dummies", but I'm guessing he forgot to read "Dummies Books for Dummies" first.)

I know I haven't contributed to the conversation, but that's because when I grow down I want to be just like you...
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Nam

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2012, 09:37:08 PM »
^don't grow too far down, you might get stuck.

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Offline Astreja

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2012, 09:38:45 PM »
If the Son of Man is the One who comes in Judgment, it is irrational to believe he is the object of the Judgment.

That may be, Euroclydon, but I can't respect someone who says that something is bad but does it himself.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2012, 08:09:01 AM »
FALLACY: a dicto simpliciter ad dictum secundum quid Destroying the Exception.

If the Son of Man is the One who comes in Judgment, it is irrational to believe he is the object of the Judgment.

Matt 28:18 "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

The reasoning is unsound.

EDITED to change "the reasoning is unsound" from "your reasoning &c".
This presumes that Jesus is, in fact, an exception.  This is not the case.  One who stands in judgment must himself not be guilty of the crime he is judging, or else he risks the judgment of hypocrisy.  And certainly, it is a contradiction, which no amount of ex post facto reasoning on your part can negate.  Therefore, the reasoning is sound and your objection ("destroying the exception") is invalid.

In fact, you are using the fallacy of special pleading here; declaring that Jesus is an exception to being judged for his own actions with only the statement that it is "irrational" for the judge to be judged to justify it (which is incorrect; if a judge commits a crime, he should be judged for it, not have it ignored because he's the "exception").  Perhaps you should spend some time making sure that you aren't using fallacies of your own before you start accusing others of fallacies.

Offline mrbiscoop

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2012, 08:22:42 AM »
Quote from: GamerGirl

"22 [...
And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." Matthew 5:22

"40 You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?"  Luke 11:40

"17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?" Matthew 23:17

"25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken!" Luke 24:25

Any other instances you've found where Jesus contradicts himself?

FALLACY: a dicto simpliciter ad dictum secundum quid Destroying the Exception.

If the Son of Man is the One who comes in Judgment, it is irrational to believe he is the object of the Judgment.

Matt 28:18 "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

The reasoning is unsound.

EDITED to change "the reasoning is unsound" from "your reasoning &c".
    I knew this was going to happen. You've started posting in other topics but you still can't lose the "Mr Logician" persona. At least when it's a topic you started it's easier to avoid.
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Offline EV

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2012, 02:59:40 PM »
>snip<
FALLACY: Being a dick. And before you say
Quote from: Future Euroclydon
FALLACY: 'ad hominem', appeal to ridicule yadda yadda etc ad infinitum

that's exactly what I intended to do. An intentional logical fallacy.

Seriously, stop indulging in your pseudo-intellectual wanking and come down to earth, you logic-spouting, over-complicated, pompous, deluded tool.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 04:19:43 PM by EV »
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2012, 05:17:27 PM »
Clarity should be your goal, not haughtiness.

The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure pure reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog!
Bill Watterson


The cartoonist was being sarcastic don't you know?

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“When the meaning is unclear there is no meaning.”

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“Whoever knows he is deep, strives for clarity; whoever would like to appear deep to the crowd, strives for obscurity.”
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euroclydon,

 Please avoid blowing smoke up our nether regions and make a concise, clear, reasoned argument. If you can.

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Offline Grimm

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2012, 08:37:13 PM »
Quote from: GamerGirl

"22 [...
And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." Matthew 5:22

"40 You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?"  Luke 11:40

"17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?" Matthew 23:17

"25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken!" Luke 24:25

Any other instances you've found where Jesus contradicts himself?

FALLACY: a dicto simpliciter ad dictum secundum quid Destroying the Exception.

If the Son of Man is the One who comes in Judgment, it is irrational to believe he is the object of the Judgment.

Matt 28:18 "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

The reasoning is unsound.

EDITED to change "the reasoning is unsound" from "your reasoning &c".


*SIGH*

Allow me to offer this without biblical support - if you require it, I'll take the time to dig it up, but, frankly, the ideas I'm going to use are very elementary ones.

Assumption:   The bible lays down rules that dictate how men are to act.

Fact:  Included in those rules is the aforementioned statement attributed to Jesus re: fools, and his later statements where he calls others fools.

Fact:  Jesus is the "Son of Man" by his own account, human, born of a human parent and subject to human limitations (he must eat, he sleeps, and he exhibits other human foibles).

Fact:  As a man, Jesus is subject to the same rules that God dictates are true of all men.

Therefore:  Jesus has broken a rule laid down by god.

Caveat:  Jesus's divinity may exempt him from the rule.

Fact:  Nowhere in the bible is this stated; it is brought in from extrabiblical sources and later philosophers attempting to write an apologetic for discrepencies like these.

Therefore:  It requires extrabiblical apologetic to argue that Jesus-as-divine is exempt from the rules laid out within the bible, as it is not stated explicitly.

Corollary:  Destroying the Exception requires the exception be proved to be valid.

Fact:  Jesus cannot be proved an exception with purely biblical sources; see above, and, in addition, note that he is subject to God's will in many other actions, notably going to his own death and acting in certain ways that would bring about that death. 

Corollary:  Special Pleading results when an exception is declared without cause.

Therefore:  Declaring Jesus to be exempt from judgement as he is the judge is, without further evidence, special pleading.

Your argument is offered without evidence for the veracity of your statement, therefore it fails to progress past assertion.  Special Pleading.
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2012, 09:54:18 PM »
Grim - That was very nice +1
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Offline euroclydon

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2012, 01:33:31 AM »
I haven't made any circular arguments, and I haven't heard an intelligent thought from many of you.

and you keep on repeating youself, and ignoring others' arguments against your points.

Like, Seppuku's for example:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,22951.msg512527.html#msg512527

Oh, should I be replying to others according to yuour satisfaction? Have you nothing but red herrings?

Offline euroclydon

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2012, 01:38:21 AM »
Euroclydon, what is your opinion on Special Pleading? Thats what you did when you made JC the exception. It was merely a case of special pleading, not "destroying the exception". Try to get your fallacies right once in a while.

Its lame to expect intelligent response to special pleading.

A fallacy exists only when there is insufficient evidence to support the claim.

As king and judge, it is an irrational conclusion to believe that he is a one cast into fire.

There is plenty of textual evidence to suggest that Someone  "greater than the temple" was there.

You are ignorant of the text you are criticizing.

Offline euroclydon

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2012, 01:39:54 AM »
>snip<
FALLACY: Being a dick. And before you say
Quote from: Future Euroclydon
FALLACY: 'ad hominem', appeal to ridicule yadda yadda etc ad infinitum

that's exactly what I intended to do. An intentional logical fallacy.

Seriously, stop indulging in your pseudo-intellectual wanking and come down to earth, you logic-spouting, over-complicated, pompous, deluded tool.

<unnecessary text removed>  no I shouldn't say that.

mod commentary - No.  No, you shouldn't say that. 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 07:58:51 AM by screwtape »

Offline euroclydon

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2012, 02:43:56 AM »
You see, sister, I've got better things to do with my time than to blame religion for the world;'s problems and my own problems as well.

I have a life, and will not always be here to answer promptly to a valid point in the midst of invalid ones.

I've been teaching myself Linux, which requires reading and learning. Try it some time. Get a life.



Stop crying like babies and step out into the universe.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2012, 04:19:42 AM »
You're here, too.  A bit of logic for you:

Premise #1:  Arguing on this forum means that one has no life.
Premise #2:  Euroclydon argues on this forum.
Conclusion from #1 and #2:  Euroclydon has no life.

The conclusion is false.  Premise #2 is accurate.  Therefore, premise #1 must be false.  Agreed?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Astreja

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Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2012, 01:38:46 PM »
I've been teaching myself Linux, which requires reading and learning. Try it some time. Get a life.

Euroclydon, I don't particularly care if you're teaching yourself Linux.  If you don't have anything more substantive to offer us than insults and one-liner rejoinders without explanation or supporting empirical evidence, perhaps you should get thee to a Linux forum and get out of the religious debate game altogether.

In other words, if you don't have time to play, please don't come here for the specific purpose of telling us you don't have time to play, then slagging us with an insult or two and running away again.

It doesn't take much time to compose a thoughtful answer, even if one is crazy-busy.  For instance, I'm writing this with a squirmy, fluffy and very affectionate cat in My lap; there's a music theory book beside Me (got a class this afternoon); I just got off the phone after setting up an appointment with a contractor; and I've got some medical equipment companies to contact on behalf of a relative.  Thou art without excuse.
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