Been hitting my head on a brick wall

[Hatter23]

Over in Huffington post a recent article came up about Millenials losing their faith in God. I've posting there on the comment area with this theist named Debra. Wow, despite me making it patently obvious what my argument is she's been too dense and intellectually dishonest to get it. Mind you this is ONE of the threads:

She Stated:

You losing the youth due to the desires of the flesh. For the flesh loves what the eyes and mind and body wants...

I replied:

or here's a thought, they have been to exposed to enough mythology to understand Christianity is just another brand of mythology.

Her Response:


Why give up.. Don't blame JEhovah due to man. Your relatioship is based on you and him and not with your friends and family. Make it your life is pleasing God in spirit and truth.
He will give you please and peace. Like I have found there is no place like home in the company of Jehovah. We are tempted Just like Jesus but we do not break. What so funny Satan knew the Bible too. Satan knew that Jesus was the Son of God and Satan know his days are counted .. JUst like everyone one of you here too. So seek out truth and he will come and deliver you at the hole you are in.. I know that for a fact. He is a God of order and not of disorder..

Me:


Why give up.. Don't blame Ugabuga due to islanders. Your relatioship based on you and him and not your friends and family. Make it your life pleasing Ugabuga in spirit and truth.He will give you please and peace. Like I have found there no place like hut in company of Ugabuga. We tempted Just like King Agga but we do not break. What so funny Agubagu knew ancient scrolls too. Agubagu knew that King Agga was Son of Ugabuga and Agubagu know his days counted .. JUst like everyone one you here too. So seek out truth and he will come and deliver you at hole you are in.. I know that for fact. Ugabuga is God of order and not of disorder..

show me how I am to seperate this statement from yours

Her:

You are right we are seprated in many ways. Who is Ugabuga and Agubagu?.  I don't want to know? There is ONE GOD and his NAME is Jehovah God. The God of Israel, the God of Jacob, Isacc, Abraham
.Isa 42:8 , Ps83:18  spells out his name JEHOVAH...


Me:


No, I said "show me how I am to seperate this statement from yours" You know why you deliberately misintrepreted my words?, because you can't seperate it. There is no difference from you referring to your deity and holy book than there is of some Islander talking about his deity and ancient scrolls. Just quoting an old bit of writing, well he can do that. Stating your god is real, he can do that too. You are acting just like the gibbering tribal primitive and just like him, don't seem capable of understanding it is just magic and myth. It is sad to see someone capable of using the products of modern technology, but still every bit as primitive in thinking as the islander worshipping his volcano god.

Her:


Well I don't worship your God and you god is as little as the ant outside. And soon it will be sweeped away.
 
The God is a hebrew  God and he doesn't sait await for an irruption from climate and global warning. He is the Almighty One and he is able to distroy and rebuild by his own hands,
 
Me:

You are really every bit as dense as I proposed you to be. I even explained it fully, and you are still are incapable of even understanding what I am saying.  There is no difference between what you do, and what an islander pointing to his own religion of a volcano god. Your's is the god of the Hebrews, well his is the god of the Somoans, You state your god is the almighty one, well so does the islander shaman. You state your god made the earth, so can he. You say your god can destroy, so can he.


Her:


Well then what is you God name and his birth place?

Me:
 You are really every bit as dense as I proposed

Ugabuga predate world, no birthplace; through great volcano gave birth to all star!

Her:
Walk in the name of Jehovah and he will deliver U

Me:

Are you really this dense? Seriously, did someone feed you lead paint as a kid? beccause you have to pretty darn stupid not to get what I am saying.

[flapdoodle64]

Most theists get their belief brainwashed into them as children, or they go to regular religious services which lull them into a suggestable psychological state so as to be conditioned or for the conditioning to be maintained, or they due regular readings or meditiations so as to essentially self-hypnotize to maintain belief.  I started a thread about this recently. 

Belief that is downloaded at that basic level is deeper than intellectual/critical thought.  Intellectual/critical thought must work around such beliefs, the way vines must creap around a stone castle and can never expect to knock the castle down. 

In my former job, I frequentl talked to persons afflicted by delusions.  Delusions are fixed, and no matter how impossible, no matter how scanty or nonexistent the evidence is, you cannot change a delusion or remove it by rational argument.  A person's mind actively works to bend and shape reality so that the person's perceptions fit with and reinforce the delusion. 

I did the job for 10 years, and the amazing power of delusions to withstand all attacks never ceased to amaze me. 

If we could make bridges out of delusions, we would never need to repair or rebuild them, such is the strength of a delusion. 

You will never argue a strong theist out of his faith.  His faith is the result of psychological conditioning, and it is a delusion which causes his perceptions to warp so as to fit the delusion. 

The best thing is put the idea out there that one does not HAVE to believe in a god, and to show that atheists are not child-murdering degenerates. 

The person you are arguing with, you will not affect her.  But others reading the thread may be fence-sitters, the many who have lapsed on church going and the conditioning is starting to weaken. 

[BaalServant]

IF you feel like you're hitting your head on a brick wall, consider that even if the effect may be imperceptible to you, what you're doing is far better than simply ignoring the brick wall.

Think of it more like trying to untangle a 500 bulb string of christmas lights.  It may seem like the same snarled up mess that you'd started with an hour ago, but the only chance of untangling it is to try to untangle it.

Whatever the result, I commend you in your efforts.

[Hatter23]

IF you feel like you're hitting your head on a brick wall, consider that even if the effect may be imperceptible to you, what you're doing is far better than simply ignoring the brick wall.

Think of it more like trying to untangle a 500 bulb string of christmas lights.  It may seem like the same snarled up mess that you'd started with an hour ago, but the only chance of untangling it is to try to untangle it.

Whatever the result, I commend you in your efforts.

It isn't that she doesn't agree with me, sad, but expected. But I made a dozen of the Ugabuga posts, explained it to her twice....and she was not even willing to address the issue I was making.

[Nick]

Hey man, as stated here before by some wise atheist...It's like playing chess with a pigeon; no matter how good you are ar chess, the pigeon is just going to knock over the pieces, crap on the board and strut around like it's victorious.

[Poseidon]

Hatter, you are wasting a good mind on an intellectual microbe. That woman is so far out in left field that she would need a GPS in order find the bathroom.

I suggest that you use your considerable talent to better advantage. Find a person or persons who have some ability to reason. The god virus is an incureable disease for some folks but a few retain the possibility of a satisfactory recovery. We need to confine our efforts to situations where we have some hope. On the other hand, you may be merely entertaining yourself, or us, with this exchange. It ain't a fair fight with the her person.

Hatter is an unrepentant bully and jesus will smite him for that. 

[Gill]

...show me how I am to seperate this statement from yours

The difference is Debra actually believes in her God X.   She didn't just arbitrarily make it up.   

[12 Monkeys]

...show me how I am to seperate this statement from yours

The difference is Debra actually believes in her God X.   She didn't just arbitrarily make it up.

And a Hindu believes in God Y and the greeks beleive in God Z ......but somehow your belief your god is real prevails even though you can't show him to be real

[Chronos]

Her Response:

Why give up.. Don't blame JEhovah due to man. Your relatioship is based on you and him and not with your friends and family. Make it your life is pleasing God in spirit and truth.
He will give you please and peace. Like I have found there is no place like home in the company of Jehovah. We are tempted Just like Jesus but we do not break

If I were running the United Nations and I heard someone on the floor spewing nonsense like this, I would just hit the mute button.

[Gill]

...show me how I am to seperate this statement from yours

The difference is Debra actually believes in her God X.   She didn't just arbitrarily make it up.

And a Hindu believes in God Y and the greeks beleive in God Z ......but somehow your belief your god is real prevails even though you can't show him to be real

Well I agree 'insufficient evidence' is a valid argument against* God (x).  But,  the OP implies D came to her belief arbitrarily; without reason.  Sounds like the FSM argument.    People may not agree with one's reasons as sufficient for believing themselves; but that doesn't equate the belief to something arbitrarily made up.

[Hatter23]

...show me how I am to seperate this statement from yours

The difference is Debra actually believes in her God X.   She didn't just arbitrarily make it up.

No the hypothetical Islander DOES believer in his god. Sure it is a hypothetical, but if there is nothing, nothing at all to differentiate the hypothetical...the utterly fictional, from her beliefs....why does she assume her beliefs are real?

[Hatter23]

...show me how I am to seperate this statement from yours

The difference is Debra actually believes in her God X.   She didn't just arbitrarily make it up.

And a Hindu believes in God Y and the greeks beleive in God Z ......but somehow your belief your god is real prevails even though you can't show him to be real

Well I agree 'insufficient evidence' is a valid argument against* God (x).  But,  the OP implies D came to her belief arbitrarily; without reason.  Sounds like the FSM argument.    People may not agree with one's reasons as sufficient for believing themselves; but that doesn't equate the belief to something arbitrarily made up.

Actually it does. That's the point. If it cannot be differentiated from something arbitrarily made up by one standing outside of it, it has no more merit than something arbitrarily made up.

[Gill]

...show me how I am to seperate this statement from yours

The difference is Debra actually believes in her God X.   She didn't just arbitrarily make it up.

No the hypothetical Islander DOES believer in his god. Sure it is a hypothetical, but if there is nothing, nothing at all to differentiate the hypothetical...the utterly fictional, from her beliefs....why does she assume her beliefs are real?

I don't know why; but just because we may not understand or agree doesn't mean she has no reasons to believe.   

[Gill]

...show me how I am to seperate this statement from yours

The difference is Debra actually believes in her God X.   She didn't just arbitrarily make it up.

And a Hindu believes in God Y and the greeks beleive in God Z ......but somehow your belief your god is real prevails even though you can't show him to be real

Well I agree 'insufficient evidence' is a valid argument against* God (x).  But,  the OP implies D came to her belief arbitrarily; without reason.  Sounds like the FSM argument.    People may not agree with one's reasons as sufficient for believing themselves; but that doesn't equate the belief to something arbitrarily made up.

Actually it does. That's the point. If it cannot be differentiated from something arbitrarily made up by one standing outside of it, it has no more merit than something arbitrarily made up.

Well then we might as well say everyone's opinions are arbitrarily made up.   

[Hatter23]

Well then we might as well say everyone's opinions are arbitrarily made up.

No. Not even close.

First of all whether or not the Abrahamic god exists is not a matter of opinion. It either exists or it does not. Existence is not a subjective attribute.

Now when we come to things whose existence is debatable, when someone uses an fallacy to support their argument, they don't  really have an argument. One could use the exact same fallacies to support the existence of something both of the debaters can agree is not real.

Plenty of people have opinions on subjective attribute; pretty, tastiest, best, most harmful, vilest, worst, etc. And to a certain extent they are arbitrary. One can use various bits of detail to try and support one's opinion, but is a matter of opinion with the inherent sense of arbitrariness that brings along.

Lets show an example:

Who is the worst liar Reagan or Clinton?

A Republican can point to the lies that Clinton said. The question of whether or not is a lie isn't arbitrary until we get into the definition game, but overall the fact is we can pull up records of his lies.

A Democrat can point to the lies that Reagan said. The question of whether or not is a lie isn't arbitrary until we get into the definition game, but overall the fact is we can pull up records of his lies.

The attribution "liar" is a matter of fact in both cases...if we can just agree that the definition of liar is "one who tells things knowing full well they are not truthful.

However "worst" is a subjective attribute and is a matter of opinion. And all subjectiveness is at its very root, arbitrary.