If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?

[Add Homonym]

Note; this only applies if this is the bible god of my understanding. If we SPAG and turn him in to a nicer god who truly is offering salvation and only a little praise and gratitude than sure I will join him. But that is not the god I understand of the bible.

I don't know how you can understand what God is, because the Bible seems to have been written by dickheads.

This is 2 Peter
[3] And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
[4] For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
[5] And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Peter believes in Noah, and the story of all the fallen angels, from 1 Enoch, which is a banned book. Who the fuck is Peter? Scholars tend to see 2 Peter as "pseudepigraphical" (a fake), so this means that Peter is some random guy (90-150AD). I'm wondering if it's too late for me to be published in the Bible. Maybe not.

[Anfauglir]

But I can't see how I can maintain integrity and argue against a hypothetical that I've had to admit I'd actually go with if it turned out to be true.

Well, we aren't arguing on the forum what we'd do if Biblegod was real most of the time. We're arguing that it is indeed not real, that there is no good evidence it is real. Either it is real or it isn't real. If it isn't real, and you and I think that is the case, then we should argue against it.

Fortunately the hypothetical scenario is just that and for all we know and believe it's not going to happen. That's very good.

Unfortunately it doesn't help me.  I think we're at cross purposes.  Perhaps its just that we concentrate on different things?  Frankly, I'm not especially interested in arguing the reality aspect, insofar as I don't believe there is any way of proving it one way or the other - or, better say, any way of proving the non-reality to a believer.  My preference has always been for what (to me at any rate) is the more realistic goal of looking at the character.

And like I say, to concede that I WOULD bow down to that character makes damn near everything I've said moot.  So this may well be it for me here.

[Add Homonym]

And like I say, to concede that I WOULD bow down to that character makes damn near everything I've said moot.  So this may well be it for me here.

But, a random passer-by Christian would see you bowing down to a fictitious construct, because most of them don't believe in Biblegod, except Phred Felps.

[HAL]

You don't have to be insulting to make a point. I'm not attempting to deflect the point away from myself, but simply to show you that you can have a conversation on this topic with out the adjectives you have chosen. I don't consider it sugar coating to show respect for your peers.

I should be better behaved - you are right. I will try harder. I think the moderator moved one post by mistake so I'm going to move it back to get the thread in order.

Perhaps Nam is not someone you would consider your peer, IDK. But Anfauglir seems like a pretty rational/reasonable person and you used the same methods on him.

I did and you know what? He agreed I was right. I had to get people to realize that glossing over this hypothetical isn't going to fly. I'm sorry I was insulting but I saw no other way to get the point across to some of them - and it worked. From now on I will try to behave. If I don't, I deserve a warning from a moderator just like anyone else.

Being irrational and insane aren't the same thing. Some people use pure logic to make decisions, some people use pure emotions to make decisions. Sometimes both methods can and will be wrong, and sometimes you need to be able to use an equal amount of both. I personally struggle with leaning more towards the emotional side and I constantly work to find that balance. My point is that there are people who are not like you, who are not purely logic driven. These people exist and they are not insane by common day standards, so to say they would have to be insane at the point of decision in this OP is not fair. They can be wrong, irrational, or whatever, but I don't think they would have to be clinically insane to make the other choice.

Maybe this is a break down in communication and you aren't using insane in the clinical sense? I'm pretty certain you are though.

No, I don't think that was what I was describing at all.... Here's how it would look to me.

God: "Hey Kimberly, so you're here now and I'm real. Pretty cool right? Well the good news is everything in the bible is true, here look as I show you undeniable truth. ::PAUSE TO WATCH TRUTH::"

Me: "Hi God, I didn't expect this... fuck your kinda scary!"

God: "Yea literally. So now worship me or I send you this lake of fire down there. ::PAUSES TO SHOW LAKE OF FIRE::"

Me: "But I really don't like you, I'm not sure I can worship you to your liking."

God: "::POOF:: be gone you ant!"

Seriously. I don't really have a choice. It's either the above or god reads my "mind" and knows I can't worship him. Or I'm sent to hell anyways for all my sins on earth. So why not give myself the illusion of choice and enjoy my last moment of "freedom"? It's intentional delusion on my part because I don't see how I'm really being offered salvation at all. Note; this only applies if this is the bible god of my understanding. If we SPAG and turn him in to a nicer god who truly is offering salvation and only a little praise and gratitude than sure I will join him. But that is not the god I understand of the bible.

You again illustrate in your example that you are not considering the consequences of your actions and I respectfully disagree that you would act that way in front of an actual deity. No sane person will choose etermal torture. I've covered this worship thing several times. Worshipping is not mental it's physical. If you do the acts required of worship then you've satisfied the requirement, even though all along you are hating it. It doesn't matter whether you like it or not, doesn't matter what Biblegod reads in your mind. If you complete the physical acts of worship you are OK.

Well now your trying to appeal to my emotional side! See what I mean, you can use emotional reasoning to try to convince me on why I should pick heaven but you dismiss any other emotional reasoning as being insane. That's illogical HAL.

Well, there's emotions that are not indicative of insanity, and emotions that are indicative of insanity. 

[Kimberly]

Note; this only applies if this is the bible god of my understanding. If we SPAG and turn him in to a nicer god who truly is offering salvation and only a little praise and gratitude than sure I will join him. But that is not the god I understand of the bible.

I don't know how you can understand what God is, because the Bible seems to have been written by dickheads.

I don't, which is why I said to my understanding. I could be entirely wrong about my understanding of God. I hoping that if this hypothetical ever comes true that I at least get a grace period long enough to learn the truth about this God and his wishes.

[Kimberly]

I did and you know what? He agreed I was right. I had to get people to realize that glossing over this hypothetical isn't going to fly. I'm sorry I was insulting but I saw no other way to get the point across to some of them - and it worked. From now on I will try to behave. If I don't, I deserve a warning from a moderator just like anyone else.

That seems fair enough.

You again illustrate in your example that you are not considering the consequences of your actions and I respectfully disagree that you would act that way in front of an actual deity. No sane person will choose etermal torture. I've covered this worship thing several times. Worshipping is not mental it's physical. If you do the acts required of worship then you've satisfied the requirement, even though all along you are hating it. It doesn't matter whether you like it or not, doesn't matter what Biblegod reads in your mind. If you complete the physical acts of worship you are OK.

Where am I not considering the consequences? I don't even agree that there is actually a choice to be made. I think the hypothetical is wrong, I think that we atheist are already damned to hell.

Matthew 12:31-32 provides the best warning for committing an unforgivable sin:
31: "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven."
32: "And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the [age] to come."

Read more: About Unforgivable Sins | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_4596886_unforgivable-sins.html#ixzz1xbPyyM3q

Which is why I would, in the threat of a perceived choice, pretend I actually had a choice and pick hell.

Well, there's emotions that are not indicative of insanity, and emotions that are indicative of insanity. 

QFT, but if my children end up in hell.... then do you find me insane for picking hell?

[HAL]

Where am I not considering the consequences? I don't even agree that there is actually a choice to be made. I think the hypothetical is wrong, I think that we atheist are already damned to hell.

If you acknowledge god exists, then you are, by definition, not an atheist. If the hypothetical was true, you are no longer an atheist at that point by definition, so you really lost me altogether there.

Matthew 12:31-32 provides the best warning for committing an unforgivable sin:
31: "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven."
32: "And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the [age] to come."

Easy answer. You have no way to verify that is true or false at this time. Besides, it's apparently more complicated than just quoting a few verses -

Christianity has many different branches today. Depending on the denomination or reading and interpretation of the Bible, definitions of the unforgivable sin differ.

http://www.ehow.com/about_4596886_unforgivable-sins.html#ixzz1xbPyyM3q

and -

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/unpardonablesin.html

All that minutia of theological verse analysis will go nowhere as you are well aware and is way off topic as regards the hypothetical for now so if you want to start some other discussion about it go right ahead in a new thread.

QFT, but if my children end up in hell.... then do you find me insane for picking hell?

Yes, absolutely.

Do you think that you would be taking them to Satan's daycare before you go to daily torture? It's a non-issue, because, for one, you can't help them, and, well, I'm not going to say anymore because I've agreed to be nicer in the thread and the example I'd provide to illustrate my point would probably make you mad at me and the scene I described would upset you (not because you are female but because you love your children). Use your imagination.

What if your perception that God is an evil bastard, is actually wrong, and the Bible is simply divinely inspired, and full of errors? What if God is a good chap, who has bad press? In order to answer this question, you need a random passer-by Christian to tell you who God really is.

Let's take another look at a possible conversation -

God: "Hi Kimberly, so you're here now and I'm real. Pretty cool right?"

Kimberly: "Hi God, I didn't expect this... fuck your kinda scary!"

God: "Yea literally - please watch your language though. So now worship me or I send you this lake of fire down there. ::PAUSES TO SHOW LAKE OF FIRE::"

Kimberly: "But I really don't like you, I'm not sure I can worship you to your liking."

God: "You have just met me - you don't really know me at all. Just give it your best shot. It's easy. Yea I ask you to do a lot of silly things, but as long as you do them it's gonna be alright. They aren't hard to do.

Kimberly: "But what about the horrible things you've done in the Bible?"

God: "Did you see me do any of those things Kimberly?"

Kimberly: "Did I see ... um, well, ah, no sir, I guess I didn't. But why are they described in there?"

God: "The Bible was written by ancient peoples, and they - ahem - embellished a lot of it to their liking. You may ask why I didn't correct it. I don't intervene in most matters on Earth. It's for you all to run and write about. But now that I've been proven to exist by Dr. Vishurishushiti using his Quantum-Z Reverse Entropy proof of God published in this month's Nature, I have decided to go ahead and appear. No reason not to anymore. You now know you have to worship me or be eternally tortured. But it's pretty easy, and HAL, Dustin and the rest have just finished my altar, and they are now enjoying a nice feast over there. It smells wonderful (I'm really into aromas if you didn't know). It's a really good package deal if you think about it, if I do say so myself."

Kimberly: "But it doesn't seem ... fair sir. It doesn't seem like I have a real choice. I mean what rational person would choose eternal torture when they could get out of it by doing a few simple acts of worship? What kind of choice is that?"

God: "Exactly. No rational person would - that's why it's such a great deal. It's a great offer and no rational person would choose eternal torture. And I'm happy that I know you are a rational person Kimberly. It has to be this way because of a complex interwoven super-27 dimensional morality complex that you couldn't begin to understand - it goes way, way back. I remember why I had to create it ... Sorry I can't explain it on human terms, you'd need a brain the size of Jupiter to comprehend it. Besides - I never said life would be fair. But suffice it to say you don't have to go to Hell."

Kimberly: "Well, being a rational person, I guess you're right sir. I choose to stay away from eternal torture and join the gang!"

God: "Great choice Kimberly! I hope you like lamb chops! It's one of my favorite pleasing aromas!"

[lotanddaughters]

Which is why I would, in the threat of a perceived choice, pretend I actually had a choice and pick hell.

If I could save anyone who ever lived from eternal torture by suffering agonizing torture myself for a limited time, I would be willing to go at least an hour in order to save even the sickest bastard who ever lived(whoever that may be). If Biblegod allowed me to override your decision, I would make you worship. It would bother me way too much to know that you were going through that extreme torture for eternity. It would be the lesser of two evils. Worshipping for eternity is definitely some form of torture, unless the one being worshipped actually deserves eternal worship.

[flapdoodle64]

Just to toss this in, and sorry to interrupt the back and forth:

History shows us that in a lot of instances, torture and mistreatment can cause people to love/worship their torturer.

It's called 'Stockholm Syndrome,' famously identified with kidnap victims who over time come to believe that they love and share the same values as their captors.  Patty Hearst, etc. 

I speculate this is an adaptation in humans that allows us to live under the thumb of the tyrants who typically rule our tribes and nations. 

The point is...if Biblegod were rule, he'd break most of us through living in fear all our lives, and we'd come to believe we loved him. 

Think of Winston Smith in 1984, how in the end he comes to love Big Brother. 

Biblegod is a reality within the minds of many humans.  They love him because they've spent a lifetime being mentally abused by him.

[jaimehlers]

I don't think anyone here - not one single person - can truly answer the question posed in this thread unless and until it actually happens.  It's easy to be brave in our own minds, or in speeches given, but it's a lot harder to actually be brave, even when it comes to much more ordinary fears.  When it comes to the belief in a being who can sentence one to indefinite torture for not doing something, then it's a lot easier to understand the reasoning behind things like Pascal's Wager.

[jynnan tonnix]

Where am I not considering the consequences? I don't even agree that there is actually a choice to be made. I think the hypothetical is wrong, I think that we atheist are already damned to hell.

If you acknowledge god exists, then you are, by definition, not an atheist. If the hypothetical was true, you are no longer an atheist at that point by definition, so you really lost me altogether there.

I think what Kimberly may mean is that if it were proved that god were real, many atheists would, by definition, already be exempt from salvation by converting because they would have already committed the unforgivable sin of blasphemy against the holy spirit.

[Kimberly]

Where am I not considering the consequences? I don't even agree that there is actually a choice to be made. I think the hypothetical is wrong, I think that we atheist are already damned to hell.

If you acknowledge god exists, then you are, by definition, not an atheist. If the hypothetical was true, you are no longer an atheist at that point by definition, so you really lost me altogether there.

I think what Kimberly may mean is that if it were proved that god were real, many atheists would, by definition, already be exempt from salvation by converting because they would have already committed the unforgivable sin of blasphemy against the holy spirit.

Yes that is what I meant, thank you. Sorry I'm late responding I had to leave work sick and get some rest.

Easy answer. You have no way to verify that is true or false at this time. Besides, it's apparently more complicated than just quoting a few verses -
<snip>
All that minutia of theological verse analysis will go nowhere as you are well aware and is way off topic as regards the hypothetical for now so if you want to start some other discussion about it go right ahead in a new thread.

I know it's not as easy as quoting a few verses, and I have no intention to derail this topic or start a new topic about this specific verse. I'm merely pointing out how I understand the bible and why I rationalize the choice of hell the way I did. If upon entering in to the dilemma of the OP; I don't believe their to be a choice because I'm already doomed to hell, and this God before me doesn't give the option to know if what I already believe to be true is true or not.... I can only go off of what knowledge I have before entering in to this dilemma and make a decisions accordingly.

In your OP are you asking us to assume that upon entering the cross road of this decisions we have to squash all of our preconceived notions? And what then if he gives us no new information? And we can only believe it's all a trick and we will be sent to hell any ways? Then you've lost the last moment of "freedom" you had left.

Yes, absolutely.

Do you think that you would be taking them to Satan's daycare before you go to daily torture? It's a non-issue, because, for one, you can't help them, and, well, I'm not going to say anymore because I've agreed to be nicer in the thread and the example I'd provide to illustrate my point would probably make you mad at me and the scene I described would upset you (not because you are female but because you love your children). Use your imagination.

I know the scene. But you think I want some magic dust in heaven so that knowing their fate will some how not allow me to feel the sadness you are now trying to prevent me from feeling? Well then you are kinder than the god of the bible. As I understand he would not allow me to feel pain for their suffering, instead I get to watch them suffer in some kind of gladiator arena whilst eating pork chops. Knowing I'm a mother and how much I love my children you some how think I would find this acceptable and be able to worship him?

I can't even begin to imagine how you come to that conclusion. Unless upon entering heaven I cease being Kimberly and become some insane version of myself. Well then yes that is highly plausible.

What if your perception that God is an evil bastard, is actually wrong, and the Bible is simply divinely inspired, and full of errors? What if God is a good chap, who has bad press? In order to answer this question, you need a random passer-by Christian to tell you who God really is.

Let's take another look at a possible conversation -

God: "Hi Kimberly, so you're here now and I'm real. Pretty cool right?"

Kimberly: "Hi God, I didn't expect this... fuck your kinda scary!"

God: "Yea literally - please watch your language though. So now worship me or I send you this lake of fire down there. ::PAUSES TO SHOW LAKE OF FIRE::"

Kimberly: "But I really don't like you, I'm not sure I can worship you to your liking."

God: "You have just met me - you don't really know me at all. Just give it your best shot. It's easy. Yea I ask you to do a lot of silly things, but as long as you do them it's gonna be alright. They aren't hard to do.

Kimberly: "But what about the horrible things you've done in the Bible?"

God: "Did you see me do any of those things Kimberly?"

Kimberly: "Did I see ... um, well, ah, no sir, I guess I didn't. But why are they described in there?"

God: "The Bible was written by ancient peoples, and they - ahem - embellished a lot of it to their liking. You may ask why I didn't correct it. I don't intervene in most matters on Earth. It's for you all to run and write about. But now that I've been proven to exist by Dr. Vishurishushiti using his Quantum-Z Reverse Entropy proof of God published in this month's Nature, I have decided to go ahead and appear. No reason not to anymore. You now know you have to worship me or be eternally tortured. But it's pretty easy, and HAL, Dustin and the rest have just finished my altar, and they are now enjoying a nice feast over there. It smells wonderful (I'm really into aromas if you didn't know). It's a really good package deal if you think about it, if I do say so myself."

Kimberly: "But it doesn't seem ... fair sir. It doesn't seem like I have a real choice. I mean what rational person would choose eternal torture when they could get out of it by doing a few simple acts of worship? What kind of choice is that?"

God: "Exactly. No rational person would - that's why it's such a great deal. It's a great offer and no rational person would choose eternal torture. And I'm happy that I know you are a rational person Kimberly. It has to be this way because of a complex interwoven super-27 dimensional morality complex that you couldn't begin to understand - it goes way, way back. I remember why I had to create it ... Sorry I can't explain it on human terms, you'd need a brain the size of Jupiter to comprehend it. Besides - I never said life would be fair. But suffice it to say you don't have to go to Hell."

Kimberly: "Well, being a rational person, I guess you're right sir. I choose to stay away from eternal torture and join the gang!"

God: "Great choice Kimberly! I hope you like lamb chops! It's one of my favorite pleasing aromas!"

You assume the bible god already gives you the choice. We don't know if any of the stories in the bible are true. We don't know that we will be given an option. We don't know that he will waste his time explaining himself to us. We don't know anything.

I want to thank Nam for this topic. Here's what Nam says about it -

If Biblegod was shown 100% to exist, i'd be happy to burn foever (sic) in Hell.

You asked a simple question. There aren't many parameters we have to go off of. (Think of the old Superfly moral quandaries and how specific they were.) So I can only answer it to the best of my ability with the knowledge I have. I've attempted to do that, I feel like I've played the game according the parameters you set.

Maybe you should retry the question with more specific parameters and less un answered variables?
I'm not feeling well ATM. I'm logging off of the forum for the night.

[HAL]

I know it's not as easy as quoting a few verses, and I have no intention to derail this topic or start a new topic about this specific verse.

You might not be intending to derail it but you are.

I'm merely pointing out how I understand the bible and why I rationalize the choice of hell the way I did. If upon entering in to the dilemma of the OP; I don't believe their to be a choice because I'm already doomed to hell, and this God before me doesn't give the option to know if what I already believe to be true is true or not.... I can only go off of what knowledge I have before entering in to this dilemma and make a decisions accordingly.

It's a hypothetical choice - it doesn't take into account anything else because if we throw the Bible in we'd be arguing for 2,500 pages and 12 years. It's meant to make you think about a stark choice. Why are you going off on the "I'm doomed to Hell" tangent anyway? I don't get it, are you still worried that this god of the Bible is real? I sense you have some kind of fear about this hypothetical. Maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, if all atheists are doomed to Hell then how could anyone that was an atheist accept JC? Now you got me going off topic. Arghhh. Stop.

In your OP are you asking us to assume that upon entering the cross road of this decisions we have to squash all of our preconceived notions? And what then if he gives us no new information? And we can only believe it's all a trick and we will be sent to hell any ways? Then you've lost the last moment of "freedom" you had left.

The hypothetical is the hypothetical. There is no more information to go on than what is presented. It's my hypothetical and it is what it is. If you want to make your own new hypothetical please start a new thread and we'll investigate it there.

Maybe you should retry the question with more specific parameters and less un answered variables?

No, it's just the way I want it.

You either choose eternal torture or worship god. That's the stark choice in front of you. If you want to choose eternal torture then go for it, I won't bother you anymore about it.

I'm not feeling well ATM. I'm logging off of the forum for the night.

OK I hope you get better.

[Death over Life]

Sometimes you just got to say, the pain is worth holding on to what you believe or don't. It is better to burn as yourself than go to Heaven as a poser.

I do not believe for a second that you would do that, and I know you wouldn't in the face of the actual hypothetical coming true.

Why don't some of you ask the other members who agree with me to explain it, maybe they can do a better job. I've done my best but the keyboard heroics still seem to be coming in.

Very easy. I'm not your definition of sane, and I don't care what you believe or what you don't believe. Once again, Buddhist monks on fire anybody?



Perhaps if you could define the word “sane”, it may give us a better perspective on your views.

I don't think anyone here - not one single person - can truly answer the question posed in this thread unless and until it actually happens.  It's easy to be brave in our own minds, or in speeches given, but it's a lot harder to actually be brave, even when it comes to much more ordinary fears.  When it comes to the belief in a being who can sentence one to indefinite torture for not doing something, then it's a lot easier to understand the reasoning behind things like Pascal's Wager.

What my problems with the whole thread is, if the hypothetical “god” is proven true, the question is, which hypothetical god? Even suspending disbelief for a moment, 2,000 years of Christianity and nobody has come to which interpretation is true or not. 2,000 years and 38,000 denominations and the damn people who made this up can’t agree with each other as to what’s true or false, and now we are to expect atheists to know which is the better interpretation?

We need to specifically discuss which hypothetical god of the 38,000 Christian denominations there are. In addition, we have the hundreds of thousands of other gods to choose from. In a reality situation, God being real in this case, we STILL HAVE 37,999/38,000 chance of being wrong, and then add in the other gods being thrown into the equation, and you’ve come to a point where trying to follow god is worthless and trivial anyway. Remember, 2,000 years ago GOD himself came down, and apparently more gods than ever came out of it instead of a unity like it was thought.

In this day and age, this would probably happen again, despite the fact that we have video, cameras, pictures etc. Despite all this, the Bible itself doesn’t even agree that there is an eternity. It doesn’t matter which afterlife you head to, because eons, are not eternal. Eternity is just a way to twist the translations of the Bible to imply eternity, when none exists. So if I am to believe the hypothetical to be true, it doesn’t matter because death is the only reality in the end of life AND the afterlife, and I don’t care how irrational or insane I am for choosing so, I’d rather live in the truth of it all than lie to myself to make myself feel better. Thus by default, because death is the reality, and God in religion always represents life, give me death. Then again, the founding fathers of the USA were a little stubborn and a little crazy as well for being so loyal, or stubborn, or militant, or fanatical, or whatever word that properly gets the point here.

[Mr. Blackwell]

I said if they are sane they will not choose eternal torture.

HAL...Throughout this entire thread you have completely underestimated the stubbornness of the skeptical mind.

I, for one, do not accept your premise that bible god can be proven to exist in the first place. What would it take to prove to you that the entity called “God” in the Bible is real and that the hell his followers describe[1]is real? It would take quite a bit I'm sure.

If you are looking for honesty then I can say that given the very limited scenario you have laid out, it would be nigh impossible for this god to prove to me that both he and his ultimatum are real. Therefor, it becomes an easy choice...for a skeptic. I'd have to call the mother fucker's bluff on pure principal alone. Eternal worship = eternal torture.

Also, I can't help but notice you are very selective in calling out your opponents in this little exercise. I said I would choose hell a couple days ago. Am I not worthy of your admonishments?

1.	in so many various ways

[lotanddaughters]

Yeah, HAL, more internet heroics, LOL. If they were talking to you in person, all you would have to do is burn their arm with a cigarette lighter and watch how fast they move away from the heat, even if they were Buddhist monks who weren't quite ready to set themselves on fire just yet. 

[sun_king]

I will join the rebellion[1] I will be with them, in an iron chariot, armed with an M-61 Vulcan with iron bullets.

IF the Biblegod (any variant) is shown to exist, then the remaining absurdities in the bible comes to play too, with the same properties as described in the book. Satan rages in defiance and as per the bible Satan is way better than god. God is not powerful enough to vanquish Satan, the less evil side has a fair chance against god.

Who else is with the rebels?

1.	Where there is a tyrannical ruler who demands worship, excess tax and maintains formidable torture chambers, there will always be rebels.

[HAL]

Very easy. I'm not your definition of sane, and I don't care what you believe or what you don't believe. Once again, Buddhist monks on fire anybody?

Maybe the monk is an idiot. Maybe he knows the pain will end one way or another. Maybe the monk isn't a sane person. Maybe he's trying to make a point to others, which isn't an option in the hypothetical. In any case the picture proves nothing, because he's not choosing eternal torture, and I read your whole post and you have yet to answer the question as pertains to yourself.

By the way, how many times have you set yourself on fire? Thought so ...

Perhaps if you could define the word “sane”, it may give us a better perspective on your views.

Any person not choosing eternal torture if there is a way out of it.

What my problems with the whole thread is, if the hypothetical “god” is proven true, the question is, which hypothetical god?

...

We need to specifically discuss which hypothetical god of the 38,000 Christian denominations there are.

You don't get to change my hypothetical, and you don't get to discuss which god, sorry. Request denied. Step up to the plate and answer the hypothetical as it is, don't try to clutter the stark choice with myriad ways you can weasel out of answering.

HAL...Throughout this entire thread you have completely underestimated the stubbornness of the skeptical mind.

I, for one, do not accept your premise that bible god can be proven to exist in the first place. What would it take to prove to you that the entity called “God” in the Bible is real and that the hell his followers describe[1]is real?

1.	in so many various ways

It's a hypothetical thought experiment. It isn't claiming how it's proven true - that's completely beside the point of the thread.

Also, I can't help but notice you are very selective in calling out your opponents in this little exercise. I said I would choose hell a couple days ago. Am I not worthy of your admonishments?

You "said" you would choose it? Oh, OK. I'm going to say something -

"I choose eternal torture over worshiping god."

There! I said it so now I can do it!

I and other have given reasons that we wouldn't/couldn't choose eternal torture. You have given me no good reason to believe you can make that actual choice. Do you have a believable statement available that would convince me and others you would choose an actual eternal torture, or are you just another internet keyboard hero sitting in his comfy chair that can make grandiose statements of heroics that in no way you would do if this were to become true. Before I believe you you'll have to tell us how your humanity, which will overpower you or any other human in this situation, will not rule the day.

Yeah, HAL, more internet heroics, LOL. If they were talking to you in person, all you would have to do is burn their arm with a cigarette lighter and watch how fast they move away from the heat, even if they were Buddhist monks who weren't quite ready to set themselves on fire just yet. 

It's amazing isn't it? I'll have to collect all these heroics in one place after this thread burns itself out!

and they keep coming -

I will join the rebellion[2] I will be with them, in an iron chariot, armed with an M-61 Vulcan with iron bullets.

2.	Where there is a tyrannical ruler who demands worship, excess tax and maintains formidable torture chambers, there will always be rebels.

No, you can't interject those things into my hypothetical. What is with you people anyway? Do you not understand what a hypothetical thought experiment is? It's a damn good thing you weren't around to discourage Einstein.

Let me try to explain it for your education.

Hypothetical -

"If you could fly to Jupiter which moon would you visit first?"

lotanddaughters: "Oh interesting! I'd like to visit Europa first!"

HAL: "OK, interesting - why Europa first?"

sun_king: "WTF? How are you going to get there! There is no way now to get to Jupiter!"

HAL: "It's just a hypothetical. Can't you try and answer?"

Nam: "What if you staple your foot on the way there - who's going to administer first aid - I mean for the rest of you, I can take it of course."

HAL: "Ugh."

jaybwell32: "Where are the plans for the ship? You have to prove it can be built before I can answer!"

HAL: "It's just a thought experiment ..."

IF the Biblegod (any variant) is shown to exist, then the remaining absurdities in the bible comes to play too, with the same properties as described in the book. Satan rages in defiance and as per the bible Satan is way better than god. God is not powerful enough to vanquish Satan, the less evil side has a fair chance against god.

How do you know this to be true?

Anyway - it's out of order. Consider the hypothetical as is or don't clutter my thread with off topic sidestepping. Thanks.

Who else is with the rebels?

LOL.

[Nam]

After reading everyone's responses to Hal, and skipping over Hal's condescending and insulting comments to everyone who disagrees with him, I'd still choose hell, and I find it rational of me to do so. Actually, i'd find it not only irrational and hypocritical of me not to based on my life now. My views now.

I still choose hell. Would I endure the pain? Most likely not.
Would I choose heaven over hell? Knowing me, and how defiant I am: most likely not.

Now Hal can keep on stating the opposite, and the rest of you can relent to his logic but I'm standing firm, and hypothetically speaking: i'd probably be the only one in hell holding to my stance.

-Nam

[Nam]

Yeah, HAL, more internet heroics, LOL. If they were talking to you in person, all you would have to do is burn their arm with a cigarette lighter and watch how fast they move away from the heat, even if they were Buddhist monks who weren't quite ready to set themselves on fire just yet. 

Ifd I were able to show you the scars on my body, from cigar/cigarette burns, a knife wound, a staple gun incident, and the fact I worked in the restaurant business, and was a custodian at Disney for many years[1] and know what soap that burns feels like when it touches, not only your skin but accidentally gets into your eyes (talk about pain); I'm pretty sure, in such regard, I know what "fire" feels like.

Granted, continuously burning your soul for all eternity, I am sure there's no comparison but with your words you make it seem as if there is. Bad luck for you.

-Nam

1.

combined

[sun_king]

HAL, next time try a title like "If ONLY the Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Worship[sic] forever?". You will get the only answer you wanna hear.

I am off to join the rebels.

[Nam]

I said if they are sane they will not choose eternal torture.

HAL...Throughout this entire thread you have completely underestimated the stubbornness of the skeptical mind.

I, for one, do not accept your premise that bible god can be proven to exist in the first place. What would it take to prove to you that the entity called “God” in the Bible is real and that the hell his followers describe[1]is real? It would take quite a bit I'm sure.

If you are looking for honesty then I can say that given the very limited scenario you have laid out, it would be nigh impossible for this god to prove to me that both he and his ultimatum are real. Therefor, it becomes an easy choice...for a skeptic. I'd have to call the mother fucker's bluff on pure principal alone. Eternal worship = eternal torture.

Also, I can't help but notice you are very selective in calling out your opponents in this little exercise. I said I would choose hell a couple days ago. Am I not worthy of your admonishments?

1.	in so many various ways

I find it humorous that a person who starts a topic and ignores certain comments/questions posed, gets on the "Watch" list, and/or warned by a moderator but if an Admin/Mod does it: nothing happens.

Just to toss this in, and sorry to interrupt the back and forth:

History shows us that in a lot of instances, torture and mistreatment can cause people to love/worship their torturer.

It's called 'Stockholm Syndrome,' famously identified with kidnap victims who over time come to believe that they love and share the same values as their captors.  Patty Hearst, etc. 

I speculate this is an adaptation in humans that allows us to live under the thumb of the tyrants who typically rule our tribes and nations. 

The point is...if Biblegod were rule, he'd break most of us through living in fear all our lives, and we'd come to believe we loved him. 

Think of Winston Smith in 1984, how in the end he comes to love Big Brother. 

Biblegod is a reality within the minds of many humans.  They love him because they've spent a lifetime being mentally abused by him.

Your logic stands well with those of us who would choose hell, and eternal torture, too. When it'd ask the question if we'd want it to stop, we'd say "no", 'cause we would want it to keep punishing us 'cause we love it[2]

-Nam

2.	the torturer not the act...well, at that point maybe even the act.

[HAL]

HAL, next time try a title like "If ONLY the Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Worship[sic] forever?". You will get the only answer you wanna hear.

It really doesn't matter what god it is - that's not the concern you'd have at the time.

I am off to join the rebels.

There is no rebellion - there can't be so that response is meaningless to the hypothetical.

Ifd I were able to show you the scars on my body, from cigar/cigarette burns, a knife wound, a staple gun incident, and the fact I worked in the restaurant business, and was a custodian at Disney for many years and know what soap that burns feels like when it touches, not only your skin but accidentally gets into your eyes (talk about pain); I'm pretty sure, in such regard, I know what "fire" feels like.

You worked at Disney too. Oh wow - now you've really convinced me!

Granted, continuously burning your soul for all eternity, I am sure there's no comparison but with your words you make it seem as if there is. Bad luck for you.

Blowing it off with words on a keyboard is easy Nam - that's the problem with this hypothetical. Only a few members have taken into account the acuality of this coming true and I respect them for thinking it out. The rest of you unfortunately find it way too easy to type out heroics. Not for a second do I believe you would choose actual eternal torture over worship. Nothing you've said even comes close to conving me that your own humanity would be tossed aside at the chance to get out of eternal torture any way you can. You, of all people, from what I've read over the years, would be the first to save his butt if scenario was to be actually true - not the first to choose eternal torture.

Your logic stands well with those of us who would choose hell, and eternal torture, too. When it'd ask the question if we'd want it to stop, we'd say "no", 'cause we would want it to keep punishing us 'cause we love it - the torturer not the act...well, at that point maybe even the act.

Ah - no it doesn't Nam. It doesn't work that way. It's amazing what you can dream up in order to somehow make us believe you would choose eternal torture. That only works when the torturers use sporadic torture with periods of reflection for the tortured - reward/punishment.

Stockholm syndrome

In psychology, Stockholm syndrome is a psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy and have positive feelings towards their captors, sometimes to the point of defending them. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness.

Stockholm syndrome can be seen as a form of traumatic bonding, which does not necessarily require a hostage scenario, but which describes "strong emotional ties that develop between two persons where one person intermittently harasses, beats, threatens, abuses, or intimidates the other


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

In this hypothetical you get eternally tortured - no breaks, no "lack of abuse" and no way to recant. No one on Earth gets tortured for every second of every day forever. FAIL. Massive FAIL. Huge massive embarrassing FAIL.

[Nam]

Disney is one of the strictest, and anal rententive companies anyone may/have or what not; work for. You do onew tiny little thing that isn't to their standards they'll make you do it over and over again for months on end. And, I worked 3rd shift, it wasn't just cleaning bathrooms and sweeping streets. It was power washing streets, cleaning kitchens, and that meant the whole kitchen: floors, drains, underneath equipment bolted and/or chained to the floor, walls, ceilimgs, vents in the ceiling: and you had a specific amount of time to complete it or they made you do that section over and over again for months on end.

I was an Attraction host at Disney, I even worked briefly in the Entertainment section, and did security for the parades. Those were easy jobs. Hell, i'd even done 1st and 2nd shift custodial work which was easy as hell[1] but 3rd shift wasn't for light weights, and you're not insulting me with such a statement you're insulting those who do such shitty jobs day in and day out. The only reason I left is 'cause they were outsourcing my department and I had no where else to go. So, I had to quit.

Laborwork can be gruesome especially if the company doesn't care about you, or they have to be the best standards imaginable.

You know, your comments have no effect on me anymore; 'cause now I see who Hal truly is: a person who looks down on others, especially those that don't agree with them.



-Nam

1.	no pun intended

[Kimberly]

Why are you going off on the "I'm doomed to Hell" tangent anyway? I don't get it, are you still worried that this god of the Bible is real? I sense you have some kind of fear about this hypothetical. Maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, if all atheists are doomed to Hell then how could anyone that was an atheist accept JC? Now you got me going off topic. Arghhh. Stop.

I don't have a fear of going to hell. It's not a tangent, you asked a question with no parameters so I'm forced to use my own parameters. You can't understand my decision if you don't know the information I'm using to base my decision off of.

The hypothetical is the hypothetical. There is no more information to go on than what is presented. It's my hypothetical and it is what it is. If you want to make your own new hypothetical please start a new thread and we'll investigate it there.

Maybe you should retry the question with more specific parameters and less un answered variables?

No, it's just the way I want it.

Then I find your hypothetical to be unanswerable. We've spent 9 pages discussing parameters that you can't agree to because they now don't matter and weren't part of the OP.

You either choose eternal torture or worship god. That's the stark choice in front of you. If you want to choose eternal torture then go for it, I won't bother you anymore about it.

We can't discuss this further because you dismiss all arguments that don't fit with in your opinion. You didn't set the parameters in the OP to be specific to your opinion of bible god, but 9 pages later we now know that they are. So, I can't answer these questions until we can allow each user to interpret their ideal of the bible god in this thread.

OK I hope you get better.

Thanks, I just need the bible god to make it rain. My allergies are killing me!

[flapdoodle64]

Stockholm syndrome would kick in during the course of your mortal life.  Your parents would beat you and/or psychologically abuse you in the name of Biblegod, and it would be intermittant, because your parents would be working, and just as you'd love your tryrannical parents, you'd transfer the love to Biblegod, who, because he's real in this hypothetical universe, has press conferences on TV at regular intervals to reinforce all his sick sadistic BS and reinforce the parents who mutilate the genitals of their children and tell their daughters they will be stoned if they commit adultery. 

You'd develope Stockholm in childhood, so you'd already have this confused love for your parents which due to human psychology transfers to Biblegod. 

We know these things to be true, because, except for the part about Biblegod being real and having press conferences, that's how it works in our universe. 

Parents beat and or scare their kids with Biblegod stories, and the love of Biblegod is the love one feels for an intermittently torturing captor. 

[Nam]

Oh, I also love thew fact that you state "facts" but what they actually are are opinions. Like you thinking you know me. You don't know me, you just think you do based on the information you have obtained on this website and your previous website. That's not enough information to come to the conclusion of what I, or anyone for that matter, would do.  You don't know us. You only know, based on what we say here, what information we choose to let you know about us.

See, from your point-of-view I'm a selfish person but you only have that point-of-view because that's what you think I am based on the varying topics over the years.

The same can be said for anyone on here.

You think I'm only a "tough guy", on the internet because you have no idea of how I am off the internet. Yet when I tell you I'm the same, you make it seem as if I'm lying 'cause I'm saying it on the internet. I have a birthday card, by co-workers of mine, that says "Happy Birthday Asshole". And, a lot worse things than that inside it. Best Birthday card ever. If I were able to upload it, and show you, I would. Now, granted that's just one thing, my father hates me, my mother loves me but even she'd agree I'm an asshole, and I am but even though I am an asshole, I'm not selfish.

I created an account on http://allpoetry.com years back, and I include 2 other members in my idea where we'd hold contests and give away not only massive amounts of points but also pay for memberships. See, I was already anonymously buying memberships for some people but some didn't like it (protests against the website) so that's why I created the account so I wouldn't have to run into those people.

I spent on memberships and points to run some of the contests probably $500. Now, that may not seem like a lot of money but for a high school dropout on minimum wage, that is a lot of money.

That's just one of the many things I've done for people on/offline while still holding the reputation of being an asshole. I mean, you know why the account stopped being active? 'Cause I'm an asshole and the owner assumed based on me being an asshole that I was trying to scam people. Which didn't make sense since I was using my money to pay for my portion of the account.  But he assumed since I'm such a prick there must have been something bad happening on my end.

I might not like people in general but that doesn'tmean I don't care about them, in some minuscule way.

You're a selfish person Hal, I'm not.

-Nam

[Nam]

Stockholm syndrome would kick in during the course of your mortal life.  Your parents would beat you and/or psychologically abuse you in the name of Biblegod, and it would be intermittant, because your parents would be working, and just as you'd love your tryrannical parents, you'd transfer the love to Biblegod, who, because he's real in this hypothetical universe, has press conferences on TV at regular intervals to reinforce all his sick sadistic BS and reinforce the parents who mutilate the genitals of their children and tell their daughters they will be stoned if they commit adultery. 

You'd develope Stockholm in childhood, so you'd already have this confused love for your parents which due to human psychology transfers to Biblegod. 

We know these things to be true, because, except for the part about Biblegod being real and having press conferences, that's how it works in our universe. 

Parents beat and or scare their kids with Biblegod stories, and the love of Biblegod is the love one feels for an intermittently torturing captor. 

Then how did all of us who are former Biblegod worshippers become atheists? If what you say is true, then none of should be atheists and we're still in love with Biblegod, no?

-Nam

[gonegolfing]

Congratulations are in order to all those atheists who will without a doubt wisely and unselfishly choose to be on the side of insincere worship if the time ever comes. Courage and toughness if I've ever seen it !

If so, then you've also provided a solid argument that should convince yourselves--that your atheist position is actually being held in vain at the moment and that it's best to stop this hopeless nonbelief charade and serve a god now to be safe.

Since god cannot be disproved, perhaps it exists, so then why not go ahead and place your bet ?


It always puzzling and comical to watch a silly hypothetical debate between people of the same persuasion--over an idea that they all believe to be a nonstarter in the first place.

Makeup with a nice Internet family hug everyone.