Author Topic: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?  (Read 14296 times)

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Offline Kimberly

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #203 on: June 11, 2012, 12:02:24 PM »
On the other hand, if heaven is a steady constant, never changing, as we suppose it would be because "god's" plan will be complete,  there would be no change to gage time with on suffering. A second and a billion years would be indistinguishable without a changing environment. As your mind would be finished, all thoughts complete, how would you think about the pain?

That's an excellent question. I wish I knew the answer.
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #204 on: June 11, 2012, 03:23:36 PM »
I would worship rather than burn forever in hell. :o

I would worship rather than cause anyone on the planet to burn forever hell. Even conservatives don't deserve to burn forever in hell. Isn't that the main selling point of Christianity-- convincing people to think they will burn forever if they don't worship?

What is amusing in a bad way, is how so many religious people decide not to wait for god and hell, instead torturing their fellow humans right here on earth for not worshipping the right way.

Can you people just put down the stones, thumbscrews, pitchforks and torches? Hold your butts and wait for god to take care of those unbelievers. &)

Re: Nam
Sorry to hear about the sh!t that evil beeyatch did to you and other kids. I was abused, too. It has taken years of therapy for me to get rid of the killing rage. I have a high tolerance for pain as well. And I would never think that I could hold out if someone was setting me on fire over and over again. I would fold even faster if they threatened to do it to my daughter.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline OnlyClarity

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #205 on: June 11, 2012, 03:46:06 PM »
I would like to insert my two cents about this hypothetical since I have read the thread in its entirety and considered all points.

HAL, many forum members, including yourself, are speculating on something you have no experience with (making a choice in the face of a god), and then instantaneously judging us for speculating too.  The whole hypothetical requires one to speculate, because none of us can be absolutely sure what we'd do.  It is moot to claim that we have no experience in standing up to eternal torture, because likewise, you have no experience in worshiping Biblegod face to face or making any choices relating to this hypothetical scenario (and we both know none of us ever will (thank Go...I mean FSM ))  The question was never if you could survive your choice, it was simply asking what choice you'd make now if you had to punch your ballot yes or no today - at least that's how I interpreted the original hypothetical question.

When you say with 100% certainty what you would do in this situation and that you are 100% certain that all sane people would do the same, it is silly.  The only people I ever hear who preach that they are 100% certain of something are usually religious people who tell me they know without a doubt that God is real...hmm.  Please don't tell me you have closed your mind to all possibility other than what you perceive to be the case.  As a free thinker, I would hope you will at least uphold the possibility that some of us, including myself, want to punch the ballot no for worship. 

Would we break under the pressure and second guess our decision...more than likely yes.  But it is my strong opinion that I wouldn't regret it due to feeling I was wrong to stand for my moral/ethical conviction, I would only regret it because there is absolutely no positive outcome I could have chosen given the power we have as humans.  Part of the human complex you forget is that yes we are frail, and we do make poor decisions...perhaps like burning in eternal torment because we are too proud to let our values falter when contested.  Call me insane, call me unbelievable, or call me an "internet tough guy"..but I assure you that if you gave me a ballot right this second, I'd punch no to worshiping that hideous creature we know as Biblegod. 

The reason I disagree with your opinion is simple. Since none of us have any experience with this exact scenario (because it is impossible for us to have experience with it), we are all going to have to make our choice based on our current beliefs and moral/ethical mindset.  I know my current mind tells me that I would rather burn for eternity than to worship the monster portrayed in the Christian bible.  HAL, I feel that many of you guys are getting caught up on the fact that we'd break eventually.  Of course we would eventually break and want the torture to stop, but when it comes to having an option to take a stand when push comes to shove, your words come off like you would be proud to drop all your convictions in an instant to get out of the punishment.  I may have the wrong vibe, and correct me if you wouldn't be proud to do so, but what good are your moral or ethical perspectives to us if you admit that you are unwilling to stand in the most dire scenario?  I'd rather be falsely identified as coming off like an "internet tough guy" than coming off the way I've felt you have when admitting you'd drop your values to avoid torture and then implying that everyone who wouldn't insane or unbelievable.  Is it so unbelievable that we would like to take a stand for something?  As little faith as I have in our kind HAL, damn, you have gone one step further.  What is the point in having any opinions in this life if you will retract them under bullying or contest?

I feel that some of us want to say we'd at least try to defend our morality even if it is futile against an all-powerful being.  Futile not because it is pointless to stand for convictions, but because when you look at both options, one doesn't involve giving in right away.  Hell, maybe after 5, 10, 15 minutes he will ask again if you will worship him and we'd cave in then.  How about a round of opinions from everyone on that scenario adjustment.  I am truly eager to hear your thoughts on all of this.  Again, thank GAWD this is all hypothetical because quite frankly, it is disgusting to think about all together.

-Clarity

Offline HAL

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #206 on: June 11, 2012, 04:01:27 PM »
Clarity - I'm still writing up a response to Anfauglir. I'll respond to you as soon as I can, but you're not going to like what you read.

Offline OnlyClarity

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #207 on: June 11, 2012, 04:05:53 PM »
Interesting. I'll be waiting.

Offline HAL

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #208 on: June 11, 2012, 04:53:19 PM »
I think this hypothetical question is bringing up some even deeper issues that concern this forum's purpose and the real problem of why people believe in gods. I think it's worth stating again that I do not believe in gods of any kind and I don't see good evidence for them. You bring up a lot of good points that we need to talk about.

You are assuming that I've not given this any thought at all.  I have.  The question has been on my mind damn-near constantly since it was first posed. And I hope that I would still have the strength of conviction to deny the creature that I firmly believe is a monster, no matter what happens to me.  Because if I don't, then what is the point?

I thank you for giving it a lot of thought - so have I over the years. Because someone brought it up the other day I wanted to get it out in the open. The main problem I think is that you are using human goals and human struggles against human "evil" - dictators/mass murderers/bullies/fill in the blank ______ as a comparison to a hypothetical struggle (which you couldn't win) against this deity we call Biblegod. Convictions and struggles against human baddies can have lasting consequences. Some of them are in no order of importance -

1. Passing examples of strength to others in the struggle
2. Passing along values to younger generations
3. Receiving medals
4. Defeating the bad entity
5. Taking torture or imprisonment long enough to survive
etc ...
 
None of those items serve any purpose in the hypothetical. There is no point in denying Biblegod because it doesn't compare to human struggles. To put it frankly,

A. Nobody else will give a shit if you bravely deny it
B. Given A, you'll wonder what the point of denying is also - who are you setting an example for?
C. Given A & B, plus your own humanity, you will opt out of eternal torture.

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It would mean that I would fall down in front of the thing I regard as most wrong, most evil, most despicable there could be.  You may feel that that is a position that can be taken easily - I don't.  Standing for what I think is right is important to me - though I DO have worries over whether I would, at time of crunch, have the strength to go through with it.  But to say, right here and now, "yeah, I'll do whatever to save myself?"  No, that I won't do - not least because it would be the start of the slippery path to justification that might be the tipping point to my caving in.

It's a tough situation isn't it, if it was reality? You say you struggle with it now - just wait till the reality of it kicks in (if it were true). Unlike human struggles you are going to lose this one - no chance of winning. It's not a dictator that can be defeated, it's not a bully that can be kicked in the balls, it's not a force that can be changed. Your tiny little stand against it would be as meaningless as a speck of dust in the universe, and you won't take the chance of eternal torture to make a meaningless statement, whereas in human struggles you might risk death to make a meaningful statement for posterity. No offense, but I don't know if you are the hero type or not. You might not even take these bold stands even against a human baddie. I'm not claiming I could either.

You want a really honest answer? I put off cleaning my shower for a long time. Uh, let's just say it was in really bad shape. I spent nearly 2 hours yesterday cleaning it - yes 2 hours, it was nasty, a suck task, and a pain in the ass. If Hell was cleaning that shower over and over for eternity - I would choose worshipping Biblegod. Forget about eternal pain. That's a really honest answer. Forget about red hot cigars, staples, and all other manner of torture, that shower torture would do it for me. I don't know what that makes me, probably a lame, weak, unconvicted human in your eyes, but that's an honest answer.

It's pointless to choose eternal torture for no good reason. That's why religion wins, the threat of nasty consequences - they've thought of everything. Once that's in the minds of the theists it's all over with. The difference between them and us is they accept it with poor evidence, whereas in the hypothetical it's somehow proven that Biblegod exists. That's the difference. It's foolish to believe in something that has poor evidence. It's not foolish to accept valid proof that a thing exists and act on that proof taking into account that you are checkmated - game over - do not insert another quarter in the slot, which is what happens in the hypothetical.

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You claim that you know me.

I only claim that, as some others have eloquently stated, I know that you are human and I know your own humanity will completely take over at the point that the hypothetical became true. I don't know you as far as what you will eat for dinner today, what you regard as the best beer, or what type of flat screen TV you prefer. There are many things about you I can not predict because they are trivial states of mind - trivial choices. Mistakes or lapses of judgment choosing your next toaster oven are no big deal and I can't predict what you would do choosing one. Encountering/choosing those things are not cases of your own humanity overpowering a frail human mind. This case is, and I think by now you are starting to doubt what you would do. Nothing wrong with that.

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Then you will also know how I would feel to accept that my personal safety means more to me than standing up for what is right.

But what is "right"? Why is your opinion "right" anyway - because you say so? Maybe you were wrong all along? There's lots of human laws I don't like but I obey them because it's the right thing to do. If you don't like the law have it changed. In the hypothetical, if it were true, what the law is is what Biblegod says it is - He's the law giver and you can't have it changed. Not because it's objective either, it's because He says so and he'll bust your balls otherwise. If he says it's right to worship Him then it's right, it's the law, and you have to obey the law. If he says stone to death so-and-so because they stepped on a holy mud brick then that's what's right. Don't you obey the law Anfauglir? You say you stand up for what is "right", well, what Bible god says is the law, is what's right - period, so I guess you'll be standing up for Biblegod.

Besides, your standing up for what you claim is "right" has no chance of succeeding or accomplishing anything in any way. Many people have stood for rights that were against current human law because they wanted the laws changed. What's the worst that would happen to them? They get put in jail, some died and that was that. You can't get Biblegod's law changed so there's no point. Not just that, if you do try it, you'll get your balls busted and get eternally tortured and can't die. So you won't try something that can't succeed and will send you to eternal torment and which is not "right" by definition of the law giver and is for all intents and purposes pointless. So to talk like HAL - Your stand would be, by any practical definition of the terms, foolish and incapable of success.

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The best people in the wocrld [sic], to me, are those who risk themselves for their convictions.  Your point - ultimately - is that every person in the world will ultimately choose self over conviction.  And if that's what is going to happen, then what IS the point?

If the hypothetical were true? There would be no point Anfauglir. I know you really, really, desperately, gosh-darn-it want there to be a point to having convictions in the face of Biblegod, but unfortunately, there wouldn't be a point. The convictions you held were for another world, another time, a time before Biblegod was proven to exist. That's part of the hypothetical's consequences - the "point" is that Biblegod is in charge, and the point is he set it all up. You can't change any of it, you can't die for your beliefs, you can't get a medal, you can't pass along your convictions to others, because you know how it would go down? You'll be getting tortured and nobody will give a rat's ass.

It'll go like this -

Anfauglir - "C'mon everybody! Stay with your convictions and join me in Hell! Don't be scared of eternal torture! Nam's with me and he says it can't be much worse than having a burning cigar touched to your skin or even a staple gun wound!"

Everybody else - "Fuck that Anfauglir! Fuck that! Are you fucking insane! This isn't some debate on the WWGHA forum - this shit is REAL now! This is not a game! There's no point to resisting and suffering eternal torture! Nobody cares about your convictions anymore so don't be a fool! We were all wrong! See ya wouldn't want to be ya! Zankuu, how high is the altar we're building for Biblegod supposed to be? Get the plans, and 12 Monkeys, take charge of burning some pleasing aromas, Ricky - please slaughter a lamb". I'll try to make sure we're not pissing off the Big Guy.

Anfauglir to himself - "The real situation really sucks ..."

Anfauglir to Nam - "Hey man - can you do me a real quick cigar burn before I commit? I just want a small taste of what's coming to make sure ..."

Nam - "Dude it really does hurt, and you know how I am on forums, I talk big, but I'm outta here to help build the altar!"

Anfauglir to himself - "Why I am going to do this again ..."

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If that's the final result, then all the "fun" we have hear is pointless - whistling past the graveyard, "I don't believe in spooks, I don't , I don't , I DON'T" - and to say that, when push comes to shove we would essentially recant on everything we ever bother saying here, then.....well, agree your point, and in my opinion it makes ALL our posturings here pointless and rather childish.

You are right, if the hypothetical was true. But it's only a hypothetical that we don't believe now. It's just a thought experiment - an apparently nasty little thought experiment from the looks of it. I'm quite glad that I am causing people to think about this .But what you are saying is a problem too Anfauglir. What you are implying is, if we do not believe in ghosts, goblins, angels, gods, devils, etc. now, but they were proven to be true later, that you wouldn't want to accept the reality of it. You wouldn't want to "recant on everything we ever bother saying here". Isn't that telling the readers that we can't accept what we have not believed all our lives if proven false? Isn't that just as bad as what theists do here all the time? Well, it is.

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I further believe that even by pushing this point it makes this website pointless.  The committed Christians that come here KNOW that god exists.  So if you are correct, there is no way at all that they will ever renounce their god because of our sophistry and clever arguments that show how evil god really is.  Even if on some level they think we may be right, THEIR choice (of worship or burn) IS already being made.  Its not a hypothetical maybe some years down the line - its NOW, and always.  So not one person who knows Christ will have their position swayed by this website.

Then maybe it is pointless. Either it has a worthwhile purpose or it doesn't, and you might be entirely right. Maybe we should all agree and I can write the owner and convince him to shutter the place. If they KNOW Biblegod exists, then why are we here, I've considered that for a few years. How many people have deconverted because of this place? You see, the hypothetical really brings to the forefront the hold that this religion has on them. I believe it's the main thing that holds them. They think - What if this god is real? What if Hell is real? What if I make a mistake and get sent to eternal torture because you fucking atheist bastards tricked me? What if ... Shit man, you atheists make some good points but ... I'll just play it safe just in case - no harm really. Logging off now ...

You see, their humanity is already at work and it's powerful medicine. The designers of this religion were damn good at their craft. Our humanity isn't at work now, for us, because we do not believe. But it will be the most important thing to you if the hypothetical were to become true, I can 100% assure you of this.

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It also gives great support to the view that anyone who becomes an atheist was never truly a Christian.  Someone who is a Christian KNOWS god exists - and so, again, they make that choice on a daily basis.  You've stressed that there is only one choice to make in that position - continued belief and worship - so how could one lose belief in that position, knowing that to do so means they are making the "torture" choice?

They won't lose belief, because in effect the hypothetical (what we consider hypothetical) is real for them. You've said what the problem is Anfauglir - what we consider hypothetical is not hypothetical for them. It all goes back to what is considered good evidence and what they are willing to "risk" to accept that there is no good evidence. To them, it's not a good bargain. It's like joining in the office lottery like I used to do. I didn't think there was a good chance we'd win, but fuck it - I sure didn't want to think of me being the one who was the single guy who decided to opt out if they won. It was only $1 for peace of mind, and we do know there are winners in the lottery.

So it goes. They'd just as soon not take the risk of Hell and go about their merry way. They say their Hail Mary's and join in the religious lottery at little real risk if they are wrong (I know, Pascal's wager but that's the way they see it anyway). I foresee no risk now because I have no good evidence. The point is, are we to be hypocrites in the face of proof of Biblegod that we would still be so blustery in the face of Hell. I don't think so.

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From the position of the person who has experienced their god, that's how things are.  They can never renounce their god, no matter what we say - and they can quite honestly refute any "I was once a believer" argument with "no, you were not - you couldn't have been, else you'd never have chosen to forsake the salvation".

Yep. I have nothing to add to that. We've seen that for years and I expect it won't change.

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Your position might not make the True Christian position valid.  But it lends it a hell of a lot of support. I know that doesn't make your position wrong.  But perhaps it makes it a position that we would collectively do better to stand against?

Well it's too bad that discussing hypotheticals does that Anfauglir. If admitting I'd worship Biblegod using a given hypothetical causes theists to be more secure in their belief, then we really are up against a tough mind virus - one that looks like it can't be defeated. Or are you saying something like Mitt Romney said when talking about economy/distribution of wealth "You know I think it's fine to talk about those things in quiet rooms."?

I even got PM from members that don't want to post in the thread agreeing with me.

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Does that surprise you?  That someone who is so nervous about openly expressing an opinion on the interweb would succumb to threats from Yahweh?  I agree it supports your point, sure - I'd be surprised if it didn't happen - but so what?  I guess the meek really will inherit the earth.....

I don't think it's succumbing to threats from Yahweh, they just don't want to be seen as somehow weak or not firm enough as an atheist among their peers here. I really don't know. It doesn't bother me to talk about it because I don't care what people think about me having said all this. It's important to talk about.

Offline OnlyClarity

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #209 on: June 11, 2012, 06:13:41 PM »

None of those items serve any purpose in the hypothetical. There is no point in denying Biblegod because it doesn't compare to human struggles. To put it frankly,

A. Nobody else will give a shit if you bravely deny it
B. Given A, you'll wonder what the point of denying is also - who are you setting an example for?
C. Given A & B, plus your own humanity, you will opt out of eternal torture.

Point A: So effectively you are implying that the reason most people have their beliefs/values is because somebody out there gives a shit?  Not at all.  I hold mine assuming nobody gives a shit, and it doesn't bother me if they do. 

Point B: I don't need to set an example for anyone.  I just need to have enough conviction to value my beliefs enough to stand by them.  Can we agree that just because GAWD says its the law/the right thing that many of us might still disagree and think he's wrong?

Point C:  You may out HAL, and that's completely okay.  Maybe you need to feel like somebody gives a shit before you take actions on anything; to each his own.  Maybe you feel the need to set an example for someone before you take action; to each his own.  I think I speak for all of us who disagree with you here when I say this: To us, that doesn't matter.  Yeah we are humans, yeah we would likely falter after making the choice.  But the conscious act of making the choice to us is worth it, regardless who gives a shit, and regardless who takes it as an example.

It's a tough situation isn't it, if it was reality? You say you struggle with it now - just wait till the reality of it kicks in (if it were true). Unlike human struggles you are going to lose this one - no chance of winning. It's not a dictator that can be defeated, it's not a bully that can be kicked in the balls, it's not a force that can be changed. Your tiny little stand against it would be as meaningless as a speck of dust in the universe, and you won't take the chance of eternal torture to make a meaningless statement, whereas in human struggles you might risk death to make a meaningful statement for posterity. No offense, but I don't know if you are the hero type or not. You might not even take these bold stands even against a human baddie. I'm not claiming I could either.

Bold mine.  It may be meaningless in your eyes, and it may be as equally meaningless in others eyes.  Just because you find something meaningless does not make it meaningless to the one who takes the action.  We do not and cannot all have the same perspective as you HAL.  We will have to agree to disagree about what meaning such an action has.

You want a really honest answer? I put off cleaning my shower for a long time. Uh, let's just say it was in really bad shape. I spent nearly 2 hours yesterday cleaning it - yes 2 hours, it was nasty, a suck task, and a pain in the ass. If Hell was cleaning that shower over and over for eternity - I would choose worshipping Biblegod. Forget about eternal pain. That's a really honest answer. Forget about red hot cigars, staples, and all other manner of torture, that shower torture would do it for me. I don't know what that makes me, probably a lame, weak, unconvicted human in your eyes, but that's an honest answer.

Bold mine.  You're completely right HAL, it is an honest answer...for yourself.  Imposing your perspective on the entire hypothetical to all human beings just doesn't make it so.  You can say all you want that we are dishonest, but I don't care to debate where you have the experience of knowing every human's reaction to every possible stimuli.  I think we both know you have no such experience, and thus, we simply want you to fathom that some of us may choose differently than yourself.  Regret after the fact/breaking down/giving in all highly likely possibilities (because we have no experience taking such punishment), but that aside, the choice for me has been made, I punched my ballot.  Call me a quack for thinking its still worth it to stand for what I perceive as justice - as pointless as you may think it is.  I'm not here to impress any of you, I'm here to have meaningful discussions to expand my worldview.

It's pointless to choose eternal torture for no good reason. That's why religion wins, the threat of nasty consequences - they've thought of everything. Once that's in the minds of the theists it's all over with. The difference between them and us is they accept it with poor evidence, whereas in the hypothetical it's somehow proven that Biblegod exists. That's the difference. It's foolish to believe in something that has poor evidence. It's not foolish to accept valid proof that a thing exists and act on that proof taking into account that you are checkmated - game over - do not insert another quarter in the slot, which is what happens in the hypothetical.

Again, what is pointless to you is not necessarily pointless to us. 

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Then you will also know how I would feel to accept that my personal safety means more to me than standing up for what is right.

But what is "right"? Why is your opinion "right" anyway - because you say so? Maybe you were wrong all along? There's lots of human laws I don't like but I obey them because it's the right thing to do. If you don't like the law have it changed. In the hypothetical, if it were true, what the law is is what Biblegod says it is - He's the law giver and you can't have it changed. Not because it's objective either, it's because He says so and he'll bust your balls otherwise. If he says it's right to worship Him then it's right, it's the law, and you have to obey the law. If he says stone to death so-and-so because they stepped on a holy mud brick then that's what's right. Don't you obey the law Anfauglir? You say you stand up for what is "right", well, what Bible god says is the law, is what's right - period, so I guess you'll be standing up for Biblegod.

We have God in the Bible changing his mind on shit all the time.  It's pretty myself that if he is shown to exist 100%, he is simply flawed by any capacity of the word we understand and his laws are not worth granting any attention to.  He doesn't even know what he wants half the time.  Sure he will have the big stick and can beat us over the head into submission, but no matter what, I would like to give it a shot at least to make a stand regardless the outcome.  It is simply the one scenario where it makes more sense to me to go against it, despite him saying it is "right" to obey his laws. 

Besides, your standing up for what you claim is "right" has no chance of succeeding or accomplishing anything in any way. Many people have stood for rights that were against current human law because they wanted the laws changed. What's the worst that would happen to them? They get put in jail, some died and that was that. You can't get Biblegod's law changed so there's no point. Not just that, if you do try it, you'll get your balls busted and get eternally tortured and can't die. So you won't try something that can't succeed and will send you to eternal torment and which is not "right" by definition of the law giver and is for all intents and purposes pointless. So to talk like HAL - Your stand would be, by any practical definition of the terms, foolish and incapable of success.

It doesn't have to succeed or accomplish anything for me to feel it was worth a shot.  Both options will be horrible in their own respects, but I can't give in to that so easily.  I'd like to make him force me first.  Foolish, arguably so, but worth it to me.

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The best people in the wocrld [sic], to me, are those who risk themselves for their convictions.  Your point - ultimately - is that every person in the world will ultimately choose self over conviction.  And if that's what is going to happen, then what IS the point?

If the hypothetical were true? There would be no point Anfauglir. I know you really, really, desperately, gosh-darn-it want there to be a point to having convictions in the face of Biblegod, but unfortunately, there wouldn't be a point. The convictions you held were for another world, another time, a time before Biblegod was proven to exist. That's part of the hypothetical's consequences - the "point" is that Biblegod is in charge, and the point is he set it all up. You can't change any of it, you can't die for your beliefs, you can't get a medal, you can't pass along your convictions to others, because you know how it would go down? You'll be getting tortured and nobody will give a rat's ass.

It'll go like this -

Anfauglir - "C'mon everybody! Stay with your convictions and join me in Hell! Don't be scared of eternal torture! Nam's with me and he says it can't be much worse than having a burning cigar touched to your skin or even a staple gun wound!"

Everybody else - "Fuck that Anfauglir! Fuck that! Are you fucking insane! This isn't some debate on the WWGHA forum - this shit is REAL now! This is not a game! There's no point to resisting and suffering eternal torture! Nobody cares about your convictions anymore so don't be a fool! We were all wrong! See ya wouldn't want to be ya! Zankuu, how high is the altar we're building for Biblegod supposed to be? Get the plans, and 12 Monkeys, take charge of burning some pleasing aromas, Ricky - please slaughter a lamb". I'll try to make sure we're not pissing off the Big Guy.

Anfauglir to himself - "The real situation really sucks ..."

Anfauglir to Nam - "Hey man - can you do me a real quick cigar burn before I commit? I just want a small taste of what's coming to make sure ..."

Nam - "Dude it really does hurt, and you know how I am on forums, I talk big, but I'm outta here to help build the altar!"

Anfauglir to himself - "Why I am going to do this again ..."

Great dialogue and I can admittedly smile at it.  As sure as you are that it is pointless to try, I am equally as sure that I think it is.  It is just a difference of our opinion HAL.  Do you want to admit that it is possible that some of us have different opinions that are just as valid to us as yours are to yourself?  Again, I don't give half a shit if you think its crazy, but please admit you aren't able to guarantee the actions of others.  I remember you said that we would have to be insane in some fashion to act in this way, but that's fine by me.  I'd give it a shot for my own conviction - pointless in your eyes or not.

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If that's the final result, then all the "fun" we have hear is pointless - whistling past the graveyard, "I don't believe in spooks, I don't , I don't , I DON'T" - and to say that, when push comes to shove we would essentially recant on everything we ever bother saying here, then.....well, agree your point, and in my opinion it makes ALL our posturings here pointless and rather childish.

You are right, if the hypothetical was true. But it's only a hypothetical that we don't believe now. It's just a thought experiment - an apparently nasty little thought experiment from the looks of it. I'm quite glad that I am causing people to think about this .But what you are saying is a problem too Anfauglir. What you are implying is, if we do not believe in ghosts, goblins, angels, gods, devils, etc. now, but they were proven to be true later, that you wouldn't want to accept the reality of it. You wouldn't want to "recant on everything we ever bother saying here". Isn't that telling the readers that we can't accept what we have not believed all our lives if proven false? Isn't that just as bad as what theists do here all the time? Well, it is.

Well, maybe it is HAL.  But you committed a similar theist action when you claimed that you were 100% certain that we wouldn't choose torture.  So, we are both guilty of a theist-like action.  I just think ours makes more sense to stand for is all.

You see, their humanity is already at work and it's powerful medicine. The designers of this religion were damn good at their craft. Our humanity isn't at work now, for us, because we do not believe. But it will be the most important thing to you if the hypothetical were to become true, I can 100% assure you of this.

Hallelujah HAL.  I can't agree with this more.  My opinion is that my humanity will be the most important thing to me at that moment.  It is so important to me, that I will make the unbelievable, pointless, and possibly insane action (in your eyes) of standing up for my right to disagree. 

So it goes. They'd just as soon not take the risk of Hell and go about their merry way. They say their Hail Mary's and join in the religious lottery at little real risk if they are wrong (I know, Pascal's wager but that's the way they see it anyway). I foresee no risk now because I have no good evidence. The point is, are we to be hypocrites in the face of proof of Biblegod that we would still be so blustery in the face of Hell. I don't think so.

Bold mine.  Good question, and I think that my answer personally would be this:

Despite the idea that he's the lawmaker and the one with the big stick, I wouldn't deny that he exists if it were proven 100% true.  Does it follow logically that I have to agree with everything he says/does because he was proven to exist?  I guess I don't think so, but again, that's open to interpretation.  I'd rather be a hypocrite to stand for my conviction that God is evil than to be a hypocrite and drop my values and beliefs in the face of opposition.  To me, that is far worse.


I'm sincerely glad we have all taken a part in this discussion.  It has been extremely thought-provoking and interesting as the thought-experiment it was.  I am eager to hear all points of view in reply.  HAL, go ahead and respond to my original post first, then to this.  I just wrote what I had to because it was fresh.  Sorry Anfauglir if you feel like I hijacked the response - thats was not my intent and I still hope you rebuttal as well. Cheers all.

Offline Kimberly

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #210 on: June 11, 2012, 06:32:14 PM »
Wouldn't it be a real bitch if in the hypothetical god only wanted people with a "back bone"[1] to get in to heaven? Just saying...  &)

Seriously though, this has been a curious conversation. I fully understand how both decisions could be made. I'd like to think I'd have balls of steel and burn in hell forever. I know myself and if I caved to God I would hate myself for all eternity. I'm pretty sure my own self loathing would make heaven a pretty miserable place. As only I know how terrible I'm capable of treating myself when I fail to meet my own expectations. The truth of the matter is I'd hate either decision and have no way of knowing which one I would hate more. So, when standing at the cross road I have no choice but make myself feel good in that one small moment of existence. Because to me that one moment matters. It's when my own humanity meant enough to me to fight for.

I know personal experiences have been entirely discredited in this thread. But I was a victim of abuse as a child and as an adult. It took a long time for me to finally stand up to my abusers and earn back my self respect. The moment I give that away is the moment I don't really give a shit about myself enough to care whether or not I'm tortured. And not because I know there is an end IRL. The end IRL is ceasing to exist; that to me is far more terrifying than hell. Maybe I have a superiority complex and can't get over my own minuscule existence. Maybe I'm wrong for wanting to hold on to the ounce I've pride I've finally developed. But I don't want to give that away to anyone, let alone god. 
 1. Maybe this is the test where only the internet tough guys are worthy enough to sit by god in his thrown. And the followers get to serve them grapes and 24 hour long foot massages.
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline Nam

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #211 on: June 11, 2012, 06:47:18 PM »
I would worship rather than burn forever in hell. :o

I would worship rather than cause anyone on the planet to burn forever hell. Even conservatives don't deserve to burn forever in hell. Isn't that the main selling point of Christianity-- convincing people to think they will burn forever if they don't worship?

What is amusing in a bad way, is how so many religious people decide not to wait for god and hell, instead torturing their fellow humans right here on earth for not worshipping the right way.

Can you people just put down the stones, thumbscrews, pitchforks and torches? Hold your butts and wait for god to take care of those unbelievers. &)

Re: Nam
Sorry to hear about the sh!t that evil beeyatch did to you and other kids. I was abused, too. It has taken years of therapy for me to get rid of the killing rage. I have a high tolerance for pain as well. And I would never think that I could hold out if someone was setting me on fire over and over again. I would fold even faster if they threatened to do it to my daughter.

The hypothetical is a choice if based on reality--the other was forced on me, and I had no choice.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline HAL

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #212 on: June 11, 2012, 07:16:57 PM »
Most of what I'd say I've already said in the thread, so I'm going to cut to the chase. I told you you would not like what you are going to hear, but I have to say it forcefully because people too easily slip into hero mode behind the keyboard. I apologize in advance ...

I know my current mind tells me that I would rather burn for eternity than to worship the monster portrayed in the Christian bible.

Your "current mind" tells you ...? That's bullshit clarity. You know why? Because your "current mind", your little frail  human "current mind" would be crushed upon the hypothetical becoming true. Your "current mind" used to microwave ovens, hot showers, and flat screen TVs will be so fucked up by this coming true, so backed into a corner, that you'll be a mere ghost of your old self. It sounds really, really grand and I'm sure your family would be proud of you saying it, but it's a farce that you would take that stand. No sane person is going to consider eternal torture in the face of the reality of the situation. You're not going to take that chance - no fucking way, no fucking how. It amazes me that the typing out of these grand statements keeps occurring! It's just way too easy to make grandiose heroic statements I guess, but please save them for your next fiction novel. They aren't believable in the least.

I just consider what you've written pure heroic novel writing. It's totally unbelievable, and if you'll review the thread you will have noticed that I'm not alone in this view. Who the Hell are you anyway - some hardened war hero? Some Chinese monk that has spent their entire life meditating on mind and body control? Some trained torture-exhibitionist? I might give you some credit if you were (you'd still cave) but really, your blustery mini novel of how you can mightily stand up to a real god is laughable at the minimum. I can give you a thousand scenarios where you'd abandon your heroic ideals just on Earth right now, forget the hypothetical scenario. I could mind-fuck you over so easily and efficiently with Earthly methods that you'd be a vegetable in no time but I wouldn't have to touch you. If I was evil enough and if it was legal - you'd worship a bullfrog and I could make you do it without even touching you, because when you saw me coming at you with what I have in mind (I'll keep it off the page for now) you'd be a screaming, bauling sack of goo begging me to stop before I even started, and yet you have the gall to write what you have? That you could choose eternal torture from a deity when you'd cave in no time without even being touched by my device? Give me a fucking break.

I am just amazed at the ease at which people can blow off the consequences and say "Oh fuck Biblegod - I'm on the highway to Hell!".

I'm glad I started this thread now for more than just the OP, these blustery hero posts are as entertaining as the discussion of the real problem!
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 09:01:28 PM by HAL »

Offline OnlyClarity

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #213 on: June 11, 2012, 08:03:04 PM »
No offense here HAL, but you are being pretty stuck up and snobby about this whole ordeal.  It's good to know that you are suddenly an expert of all human reactions to hypothetical scenarios that none of us could possibly know a thing about.  You imply that you are certain that you know exactly how my mind (and other minds) will function in every possible hypothetical scenario somehow.  Damn HAL, tell me where you got the military or zen training to perform such a feat, because I'm gonna call bullshit on your ability to do so. I never said I'd outlast eternal torture by the way.  You are the one making the most grandiose claim in my opinion.

There's no point in being childish about this as I am okay with your opinion being different than mine.  The difference between you and I is that I'm not saying I know for sure how you would react in a hypothetical situation that we can do nothing but speculate on.  I wish you the best and I hope you understand where we are coming from.  You obviously have overlooked the multiple places in my posts where I said I could care less if my family is impressed or even if you are impressed by what I say on an online forum, or in person on the street.  You can peg me however you'd like, but it only makes an ass out of you.  I'd like to think you are a good person who is as intellectually honest as you claim you are, but when you make your grandiose claim that you can predict every human being's reaction to astronomically wild hypothetical situations, you come across more childish than I do sound when I say I'd rather burn than give in right away.  Again, we would likely falter over time, but let the big man with the stick have to break me down rather than myself doing it for him ahead of time. 

Offline HAL

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #214 on: June 11, 2012, 09:00:32 PM »
No offense here HAL, but you are being pretty stuck up and snobby about this whole ordeal.  It's good to know that you are suddenly an expert of all human reactions to hypothetical scenarios that none of us could possibly know a thing about

No, I'm being correct.

I am not an expert in all human reactions. But it's obvious by historical records how humans react to torture, and that's by other humans. Most of the problem with people who say they could choose eternal torture is that they aren't considering the consequences honestly. It's simply too easy to type out heroic retorts on the internet. It's a major problem with this type of hypothetical. People will type out all manner of ridiculous crazy heroic stances, but in reality, they will be just like everybody else - scared shitless and get out of pain any way possible.

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You imply that you are certain that you know exactly how my mind (and other minds) will function in every possible hypothetical scenario somehow.

Nope, I never said anything like that. I say faced with eternal torture or worshipping you will not choose eternal torture unless you are insane. I've already explained why.

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Damn HAL, tell me where you got the military or zen training to perform such a feat, because I'm gonna call bullshit on your ability to do so. I never said I'd outlast eternal torture by the way.  You are the one making the most grandiose claim in my opinion.
 

No, quite the contrary. The grandiose claims are by you and others who think they are super-human resistors of torture, so much so that you would ignore all the nasty scenarios you could easily imagine and brazenly just take a chance in front of a real deity and opt for torture. It's utter bullshit. And now you keep using terms like "I can't outlast it ...". Wake up to the scenario clarity - you can't stop it, so at the moment you get to the point where you "can't outlast it" - probably after about 5 seconds - oops.

So basically you just told me that you are smart enough to mentally play out all the possibilities and realize you won't take a chance on outlasting it before making the choice, and you will then choose to not experience it.

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I'd like to think you are a good person who is as intellectually honest as you claim you are,

I am intellectually honest - that's why I admitted what I'd do, so have other members. Anyone who says they would choose it is not being honest with their own humanity. If me saying this makes you mad so be it. It's the truth. This wild touting of "Bring on the torture!" is just laughable.

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but when you make your grandiose claim that you can predict every human being's reaction to astronomically wild hypothetical situations,

I can't do that at all. Only for a few situations can I do that.

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you come across more childish than I do sound when I say I'd rather burn than give in right away.

There you go again - giving yourself an out where there is none. See, that's why you are being so brazen - you think there's an out "I'd rather burn than give in right away." There is no giving in to get out of it at any point clarity. I wonder how many people are confused by this? Any rational person would not choose an eternal torture that they know they can't get out of. Well, why do you think it's called eternal torture in the first place?

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Again, we would likely falter over time, but let the big man with the stick have to break me down rather than myself doing it for him ahead of time.

Again you have the mental capacity to realize that you will falter, yet you brazenly claim you'll go ahead and go for it. You aren't being rational about the hypothetical problem. Who said if you break over time you get out of it? See, you are injecting possible ways out that were never in the problem. Of course you can easily say - oh well give it to me and I'll cry Uncle at the appropriate time.

clarity (after 5 seconds) - Ouuuuuuuch! Ouch ouch oooouch! OK I give in I can't take it! AHHHHHHHHH! Why isn't the pain stopping! What? I have to take this forever! I thought there was an out! I didn't give in right away but now I do!

Biblegod - "Should have paid attention to HAL son, the deal was worship me or eternal torture. Bye bye."

You're stuck forever. Any human not insane that realizes this will not choose eternal torture. But, please make my day and let's hear from other internet heroes, I'm certainly entertained by your mental heroism!

Offline OnlyClarity

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #215 on: June 11, 2012, 10:15:23 PM »
Well to be quite honest, I don't know what to say. You are just correct man, end of story.  Nobody does anything if there's a chance of consequences I guess...

Guys if HAL tells you he will save you if you are about to fall off a cliff, you better not trust him...'cause what if he falls off too and has to go through the rest of his life suffering and paralyzed with only a television to stare at.  Finite example, but why the hell does it matter HAL how much we reduce it?  Why should we take anything you say seriously when your words you admit are so frail and subject to this weak human nature you speak of?  Why does any human ever even bother standing up to torture in the first place?  If they know the consequences, why don't they all act according to your prescription: falter before trial?  Do you concede that some people might, just might hold their beliefs above pain avoidance?

I mean c'mon HAL, they know the possibility of the circumstances somewhat, yet they choose to at least try their best in the face of the torture.  Are you so closed-minded to the possibility that some humans are willing to make that choice which you see as pointless or silly or whatever?  I just don't get why you are so adamant that you are correct.  There's no correct or incorrect here - there is only speculation on this scenario given to us.  You just seem extremely arrogant and unwilling to fathom the willingness of a human being to suffer for their beliefs.  This hypothetical is the maximum and the extreme, but what makes you so gifted and special that you feel you can predict with absolute certainty the actions of others?  Can you concede that you do not know with absolute certainty the things you have claimed you do?  What makes you GAWD 'nuff to know these things man?  I just wish you could respect our right to disagree with you and not make assumptions like your silly "internet tough guy" assumption.  I strongly promise you that I'm not flexing muscles on this end listening to AC/DC regardless how much you'd love for that to be the case.  That's all I'm saying man.  I'm no tougher than anyone, but I promise that I care enough about my values to assure you I'd give my absolute best effort to avoid the worship of Bibleman (tm) - futile or not.

Offline Death over Life

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #216 on: June 11, 2012, 10:30:17 PM »
Well, regardless of who chooses what, it's mostly a mental game anyway. The only things that I'd like to suggest in the thread is, even if the hypothetical were 100% Fact, we are forgetting about the Serpent in the Garden, and the Iron Chariots. Even in the Bible, the Omnipotent God has not been Omnipotent, and has lost. What is to say this isn't possible with us?

Those who are unable to withstand torture, what of the Buddhist monks who set themselves on fire, and just sit there and meditate until they turn to ash alive?

Although I didn't read the whole debate, HAL is right in that most of us are whimps when it comes to realizing what pain and torture actually mean. However, what is failed to be recognized is that every ounce of our human capabilities have the ability to adapt and change. What is to say this isn't true with torture? We burn and are tortured beyond human recognition, we will be crying, we will be hurt, but over time, we evolve, we adjust, and we get to the point where either God's going to have to do a more severe form of torture, or torture is no longer painful to us.

Who's to say we can't thrive off of torture? I like the saying, Pain is simply weakness leaving the human body.

God has lost to Satan before, even by Bible standards, and Humans have been able to withstand horrible torture far worse than fire, cancer, acid baths etc. and yet, still have the will to die for what they believe in.

Sometimes you just got to say, the pain is worth holding on to what you believe or don't. It is better to burn as yourself than go to Heaven as a poser.

Remember, as per the Bible, even Omnipotence has weaknesses to exploit.

Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #217 on: June 11, 2012, 11:38:37 PM »
Biblegod - "Should have paid attention to HAL son, the deal was worship me or eternal torture. Bye bye."

You're stuck forever. Any human not insane that realizes this will not choose eternal torture. But, please make my day and let's hear from other internet heroes, I'm certainly entertained by your mental heroism!

I loved this.

It is totally true. Anyone who has posted in this thread would choose to worship over being eternally tortured. Yes, I know this for a fact. I don't need to be a mind reader to know it.

Now, if you make a hypothetical scenario that Biblegod asks you to choose one or the other, it's anyone's game. Biblegod is full of shit. Biblegod changes his mind often. Biblegod inspires people to write unbelievable stuff down, and expects you to believe this far-fetched shit thousands of years later. If you opt to worship, Biblegod might tell you that you weren't brave enough for his liking, and send you to burn for eternity anyway. But don't worry eternally! He's apt to change his mind again sometime.

Thank God this asshole doesn't exist.

And to all you Christians out there:

Seriously? You can't possibly believe this bullshit in The Age Of Internet Heroes. Stop it.
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #218 on: June 11, 2012, 11:56:01 PM »
FUCK,Hal for some odd reason Satan still roams free in spite of the fact that an ommni-max,all powerfull diety built hell to house him......if he can't imprison him eternally at will and immediatly following the rebellion of Satan whats to say he could do it to humans? This God has been shown to have MANY faults and has been shown to make MANY mistakes.

 Bible-God is a complete FAILURE in everything he has done,has had to kill of humanity a number of times and still is a failure today......so whats to say you cant escape hell.....the very prison can't even hold God's arch-enemy. You see,we can see God's faults and weakness....as can you,if God was not a complete failure,sure everyone would submit,if God was perfect,ya everyone would submit......but God is far from that in every respect (he is not perfect and he keeps failing at attempts to get it right)

 Why are you assuming God does not have faults? his word (OT and NT) show he is not ommni-max and he is NOT perfect or without flaw.....here is where you fail
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 12:04:18 AM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline Death over Life

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #219 on: June 11, 2012, 11:58:15 PM »
Biblegod - "Should have paid attention to HAL son, the deal was worship me or eternal torture. Bye bye."

You're stuck forever. Any human not insane that realizes this will not choose eternal torture. But, please make my day and let's hear from other internet heroes, I'm certainly entertained by your mental heroism!

I loved this.

It is totally true. Anyone who has posted in this thread would choose to worship over being eternally tortured. Yes, I know this for a fact. I don't need to be a mind reader to know it.

Now, if you make a hypothetical scenario that Biblegod asks you to choose one or the other, it's anyone's game. Biblegod is full of shit. Biblegod changes his mind often. Biblegod inspires people to write unbelievable stuff down, and expects you to believe this far-fetched shit thousands of years later. If you opt to worship, Biblegod might tell you that you weren't brave enough for his liking, and send you to burn for eternity anyway. But don't worry eternally! He's apt to change his mind again sometime.

Thank God this asshole doesn't exist.

And to all you Christians out there:

Seriously? You can't possibly believe this bullshit in The Age Of Internet Heroes. Stop it.

This kind of sounds like what various sects within Christianity and Islam believes actually. However though, they believe that neither Hell nor Heaven are permanent, but temporary. What it is, is it's based off of the karma system, so if you do in your eternity a lot of good, you'll go to Hell in very short incrimints because of how much of a saint you are being, but even the most evil of evil will be able to get to Heaven, but will have to endure a ton of punishment in Hell for those long list of sins.

Offline HAL

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #220 on: June 12, 2012, 07:48:10 AM »
I loved this.

It is totally true. Anyone who has posted in this thread would choose to worship over being eternally tortured. Yes, I know this for a fact. I don't need to be a mind reader to know it.

Quite. Thanks for being honest. If you have time can you lend any input on convincing these keyboard heroes why they are wrong?

Well to be quite honest, I don't know what to say. You are just correct man, end of story.  Nobody does anything if there's a chance of consequences I guess...

Again not true. You keep adding in little phrases that I never said - "Nobody does anything if there's a chance of consequences   ", and other types of sidetracking. Shame on you clarity. Shame on you. All I am saying is that no sane person would choose eternal torture over acts of worship to get out of it. It won't accomplish anything, it won't end, and the mind-fuck that Biblegod was proven true would make you re-evaluate your entire worldview. Unfortunately quite a few people here simply cannot think through the hypothetical as if it really came true.

Some people are almost convinced - they say "Well I could choose torture and then after a few minutes I'll realize I fucked up and then I'll admit I was wrong ...". They know what's wrong with that approach. But it's always back to keyboard heroics. I'm not buying it. No, not for a second.

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Guys if HAL tells you he will save you if you are about to fall off a cliff, you better not trust him...'cause what if he falls off too and has to go through the rest of his life suffering and paralyzed with only a television to stare at.  Finite example, but why the hell does it matter HAL how much we reduce it? 

Honest answer - I might not save you.

You seem to be telling us you are able to take on any situation oh brave one. No matter what, you will save anyone anywhere and take any pain for any reason (how does it feel when I use the same sidetracking). Now clarity, it's time to leave these heroic tidbits behind for your fiction novel and please tell the audience what your breaking point is. Where do you draw the line at saving your own skin? It's time to stop the bullshitting and come clean with us all.

Do you save your own skin for any reason if you see something attacking your "values" which if confronted might cause you to get hurt, tortured or killed. Or are you mentally invincible? After all this hypothetical choice of my OP doesn't affect anyone else. You choosing not to worship will not save anyone else, will not help the struggle, will not change anything at all for anyone else, will not make a point for future generations - it is futile. Choosing to worship Biblegod won't embarrass you and nobody will blame you because we will all have done it. So what's the point of choosing torture? You're basically being irrational in your answer so you can appear heroic.

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Why should we take anything you say seriously when your words you admit are so frail and subject to this weak human nature you speak of?

Because you are just like me and everybody else - braver behind a keyboard than in real life. Just like Nam, OAA, Anfauglir. You type out heroics like you were under contract for 5 novels. I'm just being honest about it. That makes me someone who you can take seriously. Because I'm being totally honest, I can't predict what types of non-hypothetical (referring to heroic acts not the hypothetical in question) hero acts I could do. Some would require instant choice making. Others would require me choosing to do something risky for a loved one and so on. Some others I would save my own skin over risking death. Who here can claim they wouldn't in some circumstances?

But if you think I'm going to suffer eternal torture for my supposed "values" you are fucking crazy. My values can change, you're damn right. Why? Becasue if Biblegod was proven to be true His values rule the day and cannot be changed by you or me. This doesn't apply to other non-hypothetical situations so don't fly off the handle again, it only applies to the hypothetical.

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Why does any human ever even bother standing up to torture in the first place?  If they know the consequences, why don't they all act according to your prescription: falter before trial?  Do you concede that some people might, just might hold their beliefs above pain avoidance?

I've already explained why, but I guess I'll have to do it again. Torture on Earth always ends - either you escape or die and that's that. People know this and they know an end is coming no matter what. Not only that, I don't think people are tortured 24/7/365 ever at the maximum level - they always get breaks. That's not true in the hypothetical - no end to the torture ever comes. No sane person would choose that.

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I mean c'mon HAL, they know the possibility of the circumstances somewhat, yet they choose to at least try their best in the face of the torture.  Are you so closed-minded to the possibility that some humans are willing to make that choice which you see as pointless or silly or whatever?  I just don't get why you are so adamant that you are correct.  There's no correct or incorrect here - there is only speculation on this scenario given to us.

I disagree. There is a predictable choice. You will not, in the face of the hypothetical coming true, choose eternal torture. You will not because the overpowering humanity of the situation will weigh your thinking down and you will not for any reason risk being eternally tortured. You will realize that a real god exists and you will, in the span of a very short few minutes, think through all the possibilities and realize your little world is gone - bye bye - and you will save your ass just like the rest of us.

Sometimes you just got to say, the pain is worth holding on to what you believe or don't. It is better to burn as yourself than go to Heaven as a poser.

I do not believe for a second that you would do that, and I know you wouldn't in the face of the actual hypothetical coming true.

Why don't some of you ask the other members who agree with me to explain it, maybe they can do a better job. I've done my best but the keyboard heroics still seem to be coming in.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 07:51:44 AM by HAL »

Offline Kimberly

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #221 on: June 12, 2012, 08:24:07 AM »
HAL,

I wanted you to know, that I realized you've intentionally left me out of your insults to Nam, OAA, Anfauglir, and OnlyClarity. I'm not certain why, but I can speculate. I respect that you have pretty much ignored me in this thread for the reasons that I speculate but I don't think I deserve special treatment or being ignored.

I have found your position in this thread to be insulting on many occasions, not to myself directly since you've not directed anything at me, but I share similar ideas to Nam, OAA, Anfauglir, and OnlyClarity and have expressed that here numerous times. So I can only assume that you also feel the same way about my perspective as you do theirs.

As you should know by now, I truly do say what I mean. I'm not an internet tough guy, liar, idiot, insane, or whatever else you have called Nam, OAA, Anfauglir, and OnlyClarity. I think you know this to be true, but don't want to address it because you don't want to insult me. I actually discussed this topic offline with Dustin. He agrees with you in the sense that it would not be rational to choose hell. Perhaps you mean that instead of the other adjectives you've decided to use in this thread.

I can concede that it is not the rational part in me that would choose hell, it's purely emotional. And if the emotional part of me dies before being asked by the bible god to choose, than I would of course use my rationality to decide. But over all of the years I've spent on the forum I've never been able to give up the emotional baggage that many of you have. It's that reason that I know I would not pick heaven. Perhaps I've obtained a peace of humanity that many of us lose when being on this forum for so long. IDK  but you seem to have become numb or oblivious to the other natures of humanity. And that my friend, makes me sad. Not because of the perceived insults in this thread, but because of the very reasons you have ignored my opinions here. I do value your opinion and friendship, you are the main reason I came back to this forum.

I sincerely hope that you have not allowed these forums to take away a piece of your humanity, so much so that you can't respect another persons choice. It's not for you to decide how you think they will pick, you can judge their decisions, but you have placed yourself on a pedestal that even you would shatter from if you fell.

Any ways, I'm pretty sure that's all I had to say. /Soapbox
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #222 on: June 12, 2012, 08:47:23 AM »
Hal,

Thank you for your considered response.  Combined with the day I've just had, I'm feeling extremely beaten down.

I want to choose to reject Yahweh.  I still hope I would.  But you are probably right.  If it was all, actually, 100% real, then its more than likely I'd grovel and cave.  What a miserable scenario. 

For me, that makes this website pointless - not just this website, but any stand against god 'X'.  What purpose me being a keyboard hero and arguing how evil Yahweh is, what a monster he is, when I know that in the ultimate test I'd bow down before him?  Doesn't matter that I don't believe it NOW - if I accept that if I DID believe I would give everything he wants, then I can't see what point there is, what credibility there is, in saying it now.  Easy-peasy to blow raspberries at Yahweh, to renounce the Holy Spirit when we don't believe a word of it. 

My dilemma.  I can't think of one argument I could make against the hypothetical Biblegod (that I don't believe in), that I would be able to maintain if I did believe.  And I can't just see hypocrisy, I see very real problems to what I think is right.  How could I justify arguing someone into a position that I know I wouldn't be able to maintain?

None of this means that I am off to church to confess and become a believer.  After all, it could be Allah giving me that ultimate choice when I die, or any one of another billion gods and demons.  Pascal's wager is still flawed, and - lacking that vital actual knowledge - I won't be choosing any religion to follow now.  I'll just - as you say - accept and worship whatever god I see once I've breathed my last.

But I can't see how I can maintain integrity and argue against a hypothetical that I've had to admit I'd actually go with if it turned out to be true.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline HAL

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #223 on: June 12, 2012, 08:55:37 AM »
I wanted you to know, that I realized you've intentionally left me out of your insults to Nam, OAA, Anfauglir, and OnlyClarity. I'm not certain why, but I can speculate. I respect that you have pretty much ignored me in this thread for the reasons that I speculate but I don't think I deserve special treatment or being ignored.

OK I'm sorry I'll now make a point to include you in my insults.  :)

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I have found your position in this thread to be insulting on many occasions, not to myself directly since you've not directed anything at me, but I share similar ideas to Nam, OAA, Anfauglir, and OnlyClarity and have expressed that here numerous times. So I can only assume that you also feel the same way about my perspective as you do theirs.

If you think it's insulting then my point is getting across. Good. I'm succeeding. People don't like confronting tough things so one way out is to claim it's insulting. If you are insulted it is a method to deflect the point away from you back to the other person so you don't have to deal with it. It''s not worth considering because it's "insulting". I'm, not here to sugarcoat this. This is a very nasty choice and it sucks to think about but it's important.

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As you should know by now, I truly do say what I mean. I'm not an internet tough guy, liar, idiot, insane, or whatever else you have called Nam, OAA, Anfauglir, and OnlyClarity. I think you know this to be true, but don't want to address it because you don't want to insult me. I actually discussed this topic offline with Dustin. He agrees with you in the sense that it would not be rational to choose hell. Perhaps you mean that instead of the other adjectives you've decided to use in this thread.

Right it's not rational - same result. Unless you suffer at the time temporary insanity, then you will not act rationally. I covered that. Nevertheless, I do not think you will do it. Sorry. but since you are not insane you won't.

Quote
I can concede that it is not the rational part in me that would choose hell, it's purely emotional. And if the emotional part of me dies before being asked by the bible god to choose, than I would of course use my rationality to decide. But over all of the years I've spent on the forum I've never been able to give up the emotional baggage that many of you have. It's that reason that I know I would not pick heaven. Perhaps I've obtained a peace of humanity that many of us lose when being on this forum for so long. IDK  but you seem to have become numb or oblivious to the other natures of humanity. And that my friend, makes me sad. Not because of the perceived insults in this thread, but because of the very reasons you have ignored my opinions here. I do value your opinion and friendship, you are the main reason I came back to this forum.

Maybe what you are describing is some sort of temporary insanity that would take place? Emotional does not equal rational - emotion rising to the level of choosing maximum irrationality (eternal torture) over anything else is tantamount to temporary insanity. If so I covered that scenario.

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I sincerely hope that you have not allowed these forums to take away a piece of your humanity, so much so that you can't respect another persons choice. It's not for you to decide how you think they will pick, you can judge their decisions, but you have placed yourself on a pedestal that even you would shatter from if you fell.

Any ways, I'm pretty sure that's all I had to say. /Soapbox

Well we're going in circles because I'm at the point of repeating over and over what I know to be true - that you will not choose eternal torture if you are sane. Think of all the consequences - what if Dustin and your daughter were to opt out for worship? Would you still say you'd choose eternal torture over staying with them? See what I mean - it's a horrible dilemma but I KNOW you won't opt for Hell. Some sort of state which might be called temporary insanity could be cause for a person choosing it. I already covered that and said it might happen. I'd really like some others who agree with me to chime in. They might be able to sugar coat an explanation that won't hurt people's feelings.

Offline HAL

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #224 on: June 12, 2012, 09:32:21 AM »
Hal,

Thank you for your considered response.  Combined with the day I've just had, I'm feeling extremely beaten down.

OK, sorry to hear that.

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I want to choose to reject Yahweh.  I still hope I would.  But you are probably right.  If it was all, actually, 100% real, then its more than likely I'd grovel and cave.  What a miserable scenario. 

Indeed, The most miserable scenario I could think of, that's why I started this thread. It's a topic that needs to be talked about.

Quote
For me, that makes this website pointless - not just this website, but any stand against god 'X'.  What purpose me being a keyboard hero and arguing how evil Yahweh is, what a monster he is, when I know that in the ultimate test I'd bow down before him?  Doesn't matter that I don't believe it NOW - if I accept that if I DID believe I would give everything he wants, then I can't see what point there is, what credibility there is, in saying it now.  Easy-peasy to blow raspberries at Yahweh, to renounce the Holy Spirit when we don't believe a word of it. 

Most of what we're doing here on the forum is a waste of time, as far as getting our point across anyway. Is that shocking to anyone?

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My dilemma.  I can't think of one argument I could make against the hypothetical Biblegod (that I don't believe in), that I would be able to maintain if I did believe.  And I can't just see hypocrisy, I see very real problems to what I think is right.  How could I justify arguing someone into a position that I know I wouldn't be able to maintain?

None of this means that I am off to church to confess and become a believer.  After all, it could be Allah giving me that ultimate choice when I die, or any one of another billion gods and demons.  Pascal's wager is still flawed, and - lacking that vital actual knowledge - I won't be choosing any religion to follow now.  I'll just - as you say - accept and worship whatever god I see once I've breathed my last.

But I can't see how I can maintain integrity and argue against a hypothetical that I've had to admit I'd actually go with if it turned out to be true.

Well, we aren't arguing on the forum what we'd do if Biblegod was real most of the time. We're arguing that it is indeed not real, that there is no good evidence it is real. Either it is real or it isn't real. If it isn't real, and you and I think that is the case, then we should argue against it.

Fortunately the hypothetical scenario is just that and for all we know and believe it's not going to happen. That's very good.

Offline Kimberly

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #225 on: June 12, 2012, 09:50:18 AM »
OK I'm sorry I'll now make a point to include you in my insults.  :)

Why thank you good sir. Seriously though, you don't have to ignore me. If you think I'm wrong then tell me, I'd expect nothing less.

If you think it's insulting then my point is getting across. Good. I'm succeeding. People don't like confronting tough things so one way out is to claim it's insulting. If you are insulted it is a method to deflect the point away from you back to the other person so you don't have to deal with it. It''s not worth considering because it's "insulting". I'm, not here to sugarcoat this. This is a very nasty choice and it sucks to think about but it's important.

You don't have to be insulting to make a point. I'm not attempting to deflect the point away from myself, but simply to show you that you can have a conversation on this topic with out the adjectives you have chosen. I don't consider it sugar coating to show respect for your peers. Perhaps Nam is not someone you would consider your peer, IDK. But Anfauglir seems like a pretty rational/reasonable person and you used the same methods on him.

Right it's not rational - same result. Unless you suffer at the time temporary insanity, then you will not act rationally. I covered that. Nevertheless, I do not think you will do it. Sorry. but since you are not insane you won't.

Being irrational and insane aren't the same thing. Some people use pure logic to make decisions, some people use pure emotions to make decisions. Sometimes both methods can and will be wrong, and sometimes you need to be able to use an equal amount of both. I personally struggle with leaning more towards the emotional side and I constantly work to find that balance. My point is that there are people who are not like you, who are not purely logic driven. These people exist and they are not insane by common day standards, so to say they would have to be insane at the point of decision in this OP is not fair. They can be wrong, irrational, or whatever, but I don't think they would have to be clinically insane to make the other choice.

Maybe this is a break down in communication and you aren't using insane in the clinical sense? I'm pretty certain you are though.


Maybe what you are describing is some sort of temporary insanity that would take place? Emotional does not equal rational - emotion rising to the level of choosing maximum irrationality (eternal torture) over anything else is tantamount to temporary insanity. If so I covered that scenario.

No, I don't think that was what I was describing at all.... Here's how it would look to me.

God: "Hey Kimberly, so you're here now and I'm real. Pretty cool right? Well the good news is everything in the bible is true, here look as I show you undeniable truth. ::PAUSE TO WATCH TRUTH::"

Me: "Hi God, I didn't expect this... fuck your kinda scary!"

God: "Yea literally. So now worship me or I send you this lake of fire down there. ::PAUSES TO SHOW LAKE OF FIRE::"

Me: "But I really don't like you, I'm not sure I can worship you to your liking."

God: "::POOF:: be gone you ant!"

Seriously. I don't really have a choice. It's either the above or god reads my "mind" and knows I can't worship him. Or I'm sent to hell anyways for all my sins on earth. So why not give myself the illusion of choice and enjoy my last moment of "freedom"? It's intentional delusion on my part because I don't see how I'm really being offered salvation at all. Note; this only applies if this is the bible god of my understanding. If we SPAG and turn him in to a nicer god who truly is offering salvation and only a little praise and gratitude than sure I will join him. But that is not the god I understand of the bible.

Well we're going in circles because I'm at the point of repeating over and over what I know to be true - that you will not choose eternal torture if you are sane. Think of all the consequences - what if Dustin and your daughter were to opt out for worship? Would you still say you'd choose eternal torture over staying with them? See what I mean - it's a horrible dilemma but I KNOW you won't opt for Hell. Some sort of state which might be called temporary insanity could be cause for a person choosing it. I already covered that and said it might happen. I'd really like some others who agree with me to chime in. They might be able to sugar coat an explanation that won't hurt people's feelings.

Well now your trying to appeal to my emotional side! See what I mean, you can use emotional reasoning to try to convince me on why I should pick heaven but you dismiss any other emotional reasoning as being insane. That's illogical HAL.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 09:51:50 AM by Kimberly »
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline HAL

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #226 on: June 12, 2012, 09:58:16 AM »
A moderator move one post of mine to another board, probably for good reason, so I want to respect that decision. I want to understand where we're supposed to talk about this now.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #227 on: June 12, 2012, 10:00:23 AM »
A moderator move one post of mine to another board, probably for good reason, so I want to respect that decision. I want to understand where we're supposed to talk about this now.

I moved it to the Bottomless Pit because it seemed to have deteriorated to that point.  I thought the whole thing was moved, but apparently it wasn't.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #228 on: June 12, 2012, 10:06:10 AM »
I still don't think any definition of hell or worship has been presented that makes me change my mind.

If the bible says I'm going to hell, which I'm pretty sure we can all agree to that it does. Why not lie to myself, via giving myself the illusion that I have a choice?

I'm not sure that the Bible agrees that you go to hell. For one thing, the word 'eternal' is missing from the Bible, and Revelation is interpreted by Christians (usually) to mean an ending (second death). For twoth; when you look at Matthew, heaven contains layers of fruity goodness (least in heaven, greatest in heaven], and the main thing to get into heaven is to love your neighbour. Paul is the problem, because he says you have to believe in Jesus to get into heaven, but makes no mention of what happens if you don't. Paul's (probably Sadduceean) view in Galatians, is that the heaven is a place where extra special people, like Ezekiel and Enoch went, and you can go there, too, if you use the Jesus prophylactic.

However, in Luke, Lazarus goes to a heaven (Bosom of Abraham), just because he was poor and ate crumbs. There could, in theory, be grades of hell - you know, a special one for Hitler, and more neutral zones in Sheol, where time passes in a mundane way, or not at all.

Accounts of what hell is, vary, and some Christians have disappeared it from their religion.

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I can pretend that flipping god off and telling him what an asshole he is will do me any good on my way to this lake of fire.

You can pretend that for a whole hour, until your personality is burned away, and flipping God didn't seem like a fun thing to do, because you can't even remember it.

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I don't see how pretending to agree to worship god long enough to be outed and sent to hell any ways is a better option??? Sorry HAL, but I respectfully disagree with you.

What if your perception that God is an evil bastard, is actually wrong, and the Bible is simply divinely inspired, and full of errors? What if God is a good chap, who has bad press? In order to answer this question, you need a random passer-by Christian to tell you who God really is.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #229 on: June 12, 2012, 10:07:07 AM »
I moved it to the Bottomless Pit because it seemed to have deteriorated to that point.  I thought the whole thing was moved, but apparently it wasn't.

Oh, right, you did mean to kill the whole thing.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline HAL

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #230 on: June 12, 2012, 10:07:14 AM »
A moderator move one post of mine to another board, probably for good reason, so I want to respect that decision. I want to understand where we're supposed to talk about this now.

I moved it to the Bottomless Pit because it seemed to have deteriorated to that point.  I thought the whole thing was moved, but apparently it wasn't.

Oh OK, you should move it all or set it back to where it was please. It a mess right now.

Offline Kimberly

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #231 on: June 12, 2012, 10:17:42 AM »
What if your perception that God is an evil bastard, is actually wrong, and the Bible is simply divinely inspired, and full of errors? What if God is a good chap, who has bad press? In order to answer this question, you need a random passer-by Christian to tell you who God really is.

Seriously. I don't really have a choice. It's either the above or god reads my "mind" and knows I can't worship him. Or I'm sent to hell anyways for all my sins on earth. So why not give myself the illusion of choice and enjoy my last moment of "freedom"? It's intentional delusion on my part because I don't see how I'm really being offered salvation at all. Note; this only applies if this is the bible god of my understanding. If we SPAG and turn him in to a nicer god who truly is offering salvation and only a little praise and gratitude than sure I will join him. But that is not the god I understand of the bible.
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.