Author Topic: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?  (Read 17873 times)

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Offline Aerial

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #174 on: June 09, 2012, 03:48:35 PM »
Seeing as I comply when put to pain in life....I reckon helllfire torment would make me fake it for the bastard. Ya do what ya have to do sometimes, wish I were as brave as some.

Offline Nam

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #175 on: June 09, 2012, 05:04:09 PM »
I repeat.  If there is a torturer who is capable of roasting  your flesh on a hot griddle forever and ever and that pain never lessens; you never get used to it; you will kiss that torturers bright red rosy ass if he commands you to do it.  Each and every last poster here will do it and so will every human being who ever lived if that human being has a conscious mind to reason with.

The discussion is not about what punishment the bible hell has in store for those who won't bow down to bible god.  The discussion is about a hell of burning fire that never ends.

So, you're saying that every person who has ever been tortured, consistently, throughout history, that every single one of them ended up kissing the ass of their torturer? Do I laugh now, or do you want me to wait 'til later? 'Cause unless you can show evidence of this you're just giving an unfounded and frankly biased opinion.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Nam

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #176 on: June 09, 2012, 06:02:36 PM »
...I am sure they are happy that they are free from it and I am sure they don't want to go through it ever again.

You're sure? Well, that just solves it all, then. Really? Is that your reply: I am sure -- opinion backed up by what you perceive to be true in the minds of others. Are you becoming like Hal, now? Speaking about the mindset of others.

Let me put it another way: does a war truly end for all those who come home from war? Studies have shown that some soldiers bring home the war, and it is with them their entire life.

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Also, one difference between any situation (I've already mentioned) in our finite existence and eternal torture is that there is no hope, there is no way out, there's no end, it doesn't stop, nobody can save you from it once it begins, otherwise it ceases to be eternal.

There may be truth in that, but then again, there might not be. That's an assumption with some weight but as An American Tail taught me as a child: never say never. If Satan tried to take the "throne", then who's to say it wouldn't in the future? Or, maybe Biblegod would be like our politicians and "change its mind" about the whole fire & brimstone thing.

See, I can assume, too. It's so easy.


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Nor do you and that's kind of the point.

You're right, I don't. But Hal thinks that I couldn't last 10-15 seconds, which implies that probably no one else could either. See, he states his opinion as a fact, where as in concern to me, what I state as a fact should hold more water but in his opinion that's not true. He's using condescion to state he's correct--are you?

I mean, I know what I'd do: I've been doing it all my life--why would I change my mind if presented with the choice: though, as others have pointed out: there really isn't a choice, and we'd all be going there anyway.[1]

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And you've yet to show a single example where you've been tested to know what you can endure and how you'd endure it. But even then, to say you can endure constant torture for even as little as a googolplex years and still feel it's better than being a sell out is a pretty bold claim and I don't think you've really had anything to back it up.

You want my personal baggage? Fine. Between 7-10 years old, I went to a babysitter. Her name was[2] Faye O------. She had a very nice husband, and son. Her mother was cruel but not as cruel as her. She made her own father use the bathroom outside. That meant he urinated, and defecated outside. Now, granted he was a mean old man, and probably treated her, like she treated me and a couple other kids she babysat but still...even when he died, which was outside where she made him be most of the time, she didn't call for someone to remove his body for more than 3 hours. She was busy watching her soap opera[3]; and she made a few of us kids stay outside to make sure any animals stayed away. I was 8 years old, athat time. She forced a few of us to clean her house, mow her yard, pull weeds, pick up cigarette butts, etc., and if we didn't do it just the way she wanted us to, she'd take a really thick belt, with a thick buckle, and spank us with it. Sometimes she'd miss our butts and hit our backs, and legs. She was so skilled at it, that she knew how to hit us without leaving much of a bruise on us. And, when we'd complain to our parents, she'd make up some convincing lie, and then we became liars and heathens.

My last year there, there was only two of us left. One of the previous children, a girl named Christy L-----, who I had my first kiss with, she ended up attempting suicide several times throughout her life based on the things Faye did to her. She was even on Oprah in the mid 1990s to speak about it. I didn't see the episode. The last time I saw her was in 1990. Haven't seen her since. One of the other boys, he did commit suicide based on what she made him and me do together, which I won't get into here. He was 11 years old when he committed suicide.

See, most of the kids she watched she took care of but some of us were "special", and she treated us like shit. Literally. See, we too could only use the bathroom outside. Behind the shed.

Now, I could say my life got better after not having to go to her but it actually got worse, in some ways. But unlike those uf us treated like shit: I did survive.

I told you some really bad things that happened to me there for 3 years but I left out the really horrible stuff. I saw her years later, and I would've killed her if my friend didn't talk me out of it. She's a person deserving of endless torture.

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Again, this is the point. We'd have to make the decision without any of those tests to know how far we could take it, how far we could endure it. Yes, I'd suggest every man has his breaking point, just because there are men who have endured does not mean they have a breaking point, it just means it hasn't been reached. We have to consider what the psychological effects here, we have a basic fight or flight response system and when faced with constant threat that's our operating system. Our brain has coping systems, but that doesn't mean you're psychologically sound. You're looking at anxiety and then you're looking at depression and with those in mind there's doors open to other psychological effects. There's an eternity for them to manifest, to break you down. You may even get to that stage where you beg for forgiveness because it's a way out. In essence, taking the 'flight' response.

The insane have no mentality.

Get it? That much torture would drive one insane, and the insane don't think sanely. These questions wouldn't arise from a person after having a mind that's no longer there. The questions then become moot.

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If knowing there is a god and we know which one and which version then pascal's wager does apply. I hate it and it does pain me to say it, but I don't think I'd take the 'torture' option just to find out I don't have the constitution I thought I had to withstand eternal torture. It's horrible thought having to kiss up to this deity, you might have seen in my posts my general dislike of bible-God and how horrific I think he is and even if given the opportunity (if he existed) I'd like to see him dead. Kissing up to that is a horrific idea. But I'd know that by giving in I'd have have plenty of time to come to terms with it. I'd already be self deluded by the time I've come to heaven. I'd probably find people I'd enjoy heaven with and find much to help me forget that I sold myself out. If the gift of heaven is eternal bliss, if that is the reward I receive then my initial conflicts of interest would pass. It even feels dirty saying it, but I feel that it is the honest thing for this hypothetical situation.

And that's the road you, Hal, and many others would take. It's not the road I'd take.

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You have the knowledge that those who have suffered torture would avoid it, yet you'd take the choice to dive straight in? I'm not sure that you would. You know that you're up against an all-powerful, all-knowing being who is infinite and that he wishes to give you eternal torture, because in this hypothetical situation it has been revealed to you. You may not know what its like, but when it comes to that fight-or-flight response, I am sure you know what fighting means for you, even if you lack the experience of what it may even be like or can even comprehend the extent of it. You don't have to have been hit by a bus to know that when one's coming your way that your "fight" response is not a good idea. Subconsciously you'll know this too, which is why your natural response is to 'flight', if you wish to commit suicide you may try to override your subconscious to go for a 'fight' response.

And of course, once we know there's a god and we know which god and which version, suddenly pascal's wager starts to make sense. Are you going to want to take the risk to find out if you can take it? Without knowing your own abilities and without knowing your own thresholds?

I wonder: is one truly an atheist if they cave in when a dead end arises?

-Nam
 1. hypothetically speaking of course
 2. or "is", don't know if she's still alive, or not.
 3. Days of Our Lives if you wish to know.
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #177 on: June 09, 2012, 06:05:11 PM »
lets also get a clear definition of heaven so we know what the alternative to hell is........could,for the non believer be actually worse than hell
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #178 on: June 09, 2012, 06:14:02 PM »
OK, so He appears in all His Glory. Does this not mean that there would be other gods? I would like a choice.

I rather favour Enki, I later known as Ea in Akkadian and Babylonian mythology. He was originally patron god of the city of Eridu, but later the influence of his cult spread throughout Mesopotamia and to the Hittites and Hurrians. He was the deity of crafts (gašam); mischief; water, seawater, and lakewater (a, aba, ab), intelligence (gestú, literally "ear") and creation (Nudimmud: nu, likeness, dim mud, make bear).His symbols included a goat and a fish, which later combined into a single beast, the goat Capricorn. He was also fond of beer and brewers.
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Offline Nam

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #179 on: June 09, 2012, 06:15:23 PM »

There's only one thing that could torture me, cause me real pain but I've gone through it enough times in my life that my response is: I'm still here.

Not that I hadn't tried not to be in the past but I survived each attempt, unwillingly.

-Nam
Well Nam, I think when it comes to god and hell (hypothetically speaking) I don't think it's a matter of being here or being survived.

For example, I want you to light up a cig. and dab it under your chin for 2 minutes, or maybe 10 seconds (Don't try this at home kids.)  Maybe you can endure this because, only because you know that the pain will end eventually.  But in hell, hell no it ain't gonna end.

What you want to think or believe being aside, IMHO your claim is unbelievable and unachievable to any human being.



If you actually read my posts from the original place this topic started from you'd have read that I have not only held a lit cigarette to my skin without flinching or crying, or screaming in pain but I have also done it with a cigar[1] and I once shot a staple from a staple gun int my left hand[2].

-Nam
 1. Tampa Nugget
 2. not a stapler, the staples for fence posts
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #180 on: June 09, 2012, 06:21:31 PM »
The paramaters for God showing his existance means what?  a magic show of Penn and Teller preportion? or will he actually do something for the starving children who pray to him not to die for lack of food? 

 If he existed what proof would be sufficient,what would we ask as proof he is God,end all war and suffering? Then he may be worthy of praise,but he has not done much for those who suffer so far. If he ended war and suffering (what I would ask of him),would I also ask why he chooses to impress me now and not 40 years or 100 or even 1000 years ago.


 Then again this God seems to get his giggles from war and suffering.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 06:23:20 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline Nam

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #181 on: June 09, 2012, 06:29:17 PM »
lets also get a clear definition of heaven so we know what the alternative to hell is........could,for the non believer be actually worse than hell

As I stated before: it'd be more of a hell for me, if I had to praise and worship such a vile deity. Which is why "physical" pain seems more applicable to me. At least I know what that feels like, and I have a better chance at not going insane.

:P

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #182 on: June 09, 2012, 06:31:27 PM »
lets also get a clear definition of heaven so we know what the alternative to hell is........could,for the non believer be actually worse than hell

As I stated before: it'd be more of a hell for me, if I had to praise and worship such a vile deity. Which is why "physical" pain seems more applicable to me. At least I know what that feels like, and I have a better chance at not going insane.

:P

-Nam
my exact point,more hell than hell
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Offline learnin

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #183 on: June 09, 2012, 07:37:36 PM »
I repeat.  If there is a torturer who is capable of roasting  your flesh on a hot griddle forever and ever and that pain never lessens; you never get used to it; you will kiss that torturers bright red rosy ass if he commands you to do it.  Each and every last poster here will do it and so will every human being who ever lived if that human being has a conscious mind to reason with.

The discussion is not about what punishment the bible hell has in store for those who won't bow down to bible god.  The discussion is about a hell of burning fire that never ends.

So, you're saying that every person who has ever been tortured, consistently, throughout history, that every single one of them ended up kissing the ass of their torturer? Do I laugh now, or do you want me to wait 'til later? 'Cause unless you can show evidence of this you're just giving an unfounded and frankly biased opinion.

-Nam

I addressed this in a later post but I'll repeat it, here.  With earthly torture, the torturer cannot get too brutal or the tortured will lose consciousness or die or go insane and this ends the torture.  So, the torturer might inflict a certain degree of pain for a period of time and then have to stop and return again later.  This is the, "consistently", you are talking about. 

In contrast, eternal torture never ends, never lessens, one never gets used to it, doesn't pass out or go insane. 

Offline smiller

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #184 on: June 09, 2012, 08:04:00 PM »
If Biblegod was shown 100% to exist, i'd be happy to burn foever (sic) in Hell.
At least to me, extra ordinary claims require extra ordinary evidence.

Are you really saying you are going to deliberately choose hell over heaven just because of your personal favorism or opinion?

Dying for something or somebody is one thing, because the pain ENDS, but excruciating pain for eternity in hell,..hell no!!! I honestly don't care what I have to do when it come to something like that.

Am I being too honest?

Offline HAL

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #185 on: June 09, 2012, 08:12:50 PM »
Am I being too honest?

No, you are just right.

Nam's blustery diatribes ring hollow for those of us who understand our humanity. No matter what life experiences he's had, it's no match for Biblegod's wrath. He'll cave like a wet piece of spaghetti and he knows it full well. He does like posting to the contrary though, which is somewhat entertaining I suppose.

Offline Brakeman

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #186 on: June 09, 2012, 08:15:22 PM »
On the other hand, if heaven is a steady constant, never changing, as we suppose it would be because "god's" plan will be complete,  there would be no change to gage time with on suffering. A second and a billion years would be indistinguishable without a changing environment. As your mind would be finished, all thoughts complete, how would you think about the pain?
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Offline jeremy0

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #187 on: June 09, 2012, 08:16:30 PM »
If you actually read my posts from the original place this topic started from you'd have read that I have not only held a lit cigarette to my skin without flinching or crying, or screaming in pain but I have also done it with a cigar[1] and I once shot a staple from a staple gun int my left hand[2].

-Nam
 1. Tampa Nugget
 2. not a stapler, the staples for fence posts
Nam:  I also have a very high tolerance to pain.  I used to play a fun game with people in highschool where I'd put our arms together and set my lit cigarette in-between.  The first to pull away was the loser.  I always won.  At a later date I was fixing someone's computer and said - watch this - and put my cigarette out on my forearm.  Didn't even skip a beat. 

Now that saying, yeah, I've been through some shit that I would consider torture.  That said, if you can't die or not pass out from the pain, it would really, really bit the shit.  But the only kind of god that would do something like that is the god of our bibles, hence my term 'the satan god'.  A god who would use torture as a means of control - eternal torture - is affectively no different from satan...[3] 

That's also why I said it would be the case that the living would remain in so much terror of this god, that they would wish he wasn't real, and hence an uprising would occur against that god.[4]

That said, the real choice in this hypothetical is to worship an evil and cruel dictator, or die endlessly.  That's not much of a choice, but most rational people would choose the former, even if there really isn't a point. But it still doesn't invalidate my claim on human nature that such a god would be overthrown by his own creations/angels/demons/satan/etc...  Nobody would stand for such abuse of power for a sustained period of time unless that dictator was so powerful as to do anything he wants, which in case most people would probably like to die fighting anyway than living with the brutality.

What I'm saying is, Nan has some valid points, so I too I guess does everyone else.  It's a shitty situation that would take some thought before diving into. 

That said, now we can see it's a good thing that the biblegod doesn't actually exist...
 3. As noted in other forum posts.
 4. As we've seen time and time again in history with any cruel and horrific dictator
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Offline Nam

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #188 on: June 09, 2012, 08:50:21 PM »
I repeat.  If there is a torturer who is capable of roasting  your flesh on a hot griddle forever and ever and that pain never lessens; you never get used to it; you will kiss that torturers bright red rosy ass if he commands you to do it.  Each and every last poster here will do it and so will every human being who ever lived if that human being has a conscious mind to reason with.

The discussion is not about what punishment the bible hell has in store for those who won't bow down to bible god.  The discussion is about a hell of burning fire that never ends.

So, you're saying that every person who has ever been tortured, consistently, throughout history, that every single one of them ended up kissing the ass of their torturer? Do I laugh now, or do you want me to wait 'til later? 'Cause unless you can show evidence of this you're just giving an unfounded and frankly biased opinion.

-Nam

I addressed this in a later post but I'll repeat it, here.  With earthly torture, the torturer cannot get too brutal or the tortured will lose consciousness or die or go insane and this ends the torture.  So, the torturer might inflict a certain degree of pain for a period of time and then have to stop and return again later.  This is the, "consistently", you are talking about. 

In contrast, eternal torture never ends, never lessens, one never gets used to it, doesn't pass out or go insane. 

How do you know? Have you been eternally tortured? Do you know someone who has? You can't say definitively that it wouldn't go the same as earthly torture, nor can I say it couldn't. What I do know is, for me: i'd still choose "eternal hell/torture" over praising/worshipping Biblegod.

You have people here stating that they'd choose something they do not believe in, and even if hypothetically it was all true, they'd pretend to believe just to spare themselves such a hell. But, what they don't get is: if they do not believe, or let's say they do because Biblegod shows adequate evidence that it does exist, and all, how are they to "love", and "praise" and "worship" a being they find repugnant? They'll "fake it". Biblegod, according to the Bible, is all-knowing. How are they to "fake it" to such a being? They couldn't. So, they'll be going to hell just as sure as I would be, but, the difference is: I, and those here who agree with me, and would choose hell, whether "we" can endure it, or not is irrelevant, we didn't, or feel we wouldn't, give up our own moral/ethical standing based on what "we" currently believe to be true, which plays a role in such a perception.

I mean, the atheists here talk all the time about how bad Biblegod, the Bible, and the actions taken by some that follow it, as being in of itself: vile, immoral, and the like. Yet, when push comes to shove: they seem to be the ones who are "all talk", not us.

They seem to be no different than those they speak out against. They seem to be no different than the religions they speak out against.

If you're so strongly against something, or for something, to give in so easily: that's ridiculous, to me.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline HAL

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #189 on: June 09, 2012, 08:53:35 PM »
You have people here stating that they'd choose something they do not believe in, ...

You either aren't reading or comprehending the scenario Nam. That explains a lot of your rather silly nonsense responses in the thread.

Offline Nam

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #190 on: June 09, 2012, 09:49:40 PM »
Hal, you came into this topic, that you started thinking just like a religious person: I'm right, everyone else is wrong. And, then after a few posts you changed your initial OP to be more suited to your viewpoint. You keep making this about "me", and what I know, or do not know about the hypothetical that you changed more than once. Others disagreed with you: in your mind: they too are all wrong. Why? 'Cause you're right.

You stated as a fact that you I couldn't last 15[1] seconds in Hell 'cause you know my mind better than I apparently do. Hell, you said the same thing to other posters here.

You can smite me all you want but I find it strange that I'm the only one who's smited you for your opinion as being facts. Or how you basically insulted others by stating that what they know about themselves is nonsense, and you are an authority on the subject because you say you are, or at least imply it with your rhetoric.

I think Angauflar[2] was correct: you must have some personal issue with me. I mean ever since you banned me for life on your website you made it impossible for me to message you, and you ignored me 'til just recently. Whatever it is: get over it.

Others may be afraid to smite you: I'm not. Personally I think you're trying to provoke me to respond in a way so you can have me banned for life here, too. It wouldn't be the first time someone's done that to me, and I doubt it'd be the last.

-Nam
 1. originally 10
 2. I apologize if I misspelled the name
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #191 on: June 09, 2012, 11:56:37 PM »
Just want to clarify.  You are calling me a liar or insane, is that correct?

It's not an either/or like you seem to think. You just don't know yourself like you think you do when it comes to this scenario. I realize that aggravates you when I say it but I can't help that.

Well, its clearly an important issue to you for some reason that you prove that you know me better than I do myself - that you're willing to thoroughly piss a lot of people off to prove yourself right.  So you go ahead and enjoy it.

EDIT: Just noticed Nam's post above.  Seems he's pissed you off so much for some reason that everyone else involved is just collateral damage.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline rickymooston

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #192 on: June 10, 2012, 08:20:15 AM »
I want to thank Nam for this topic. Here's what Nam says about it -

If Biblegod was shown 100% to exist, i'd be happy to burn foever (sic) in Hell.

I think that's a ridiculous claim - that you have enough knowledge of the consequences of eternal Hell to make such an arrogant claim. As I said - talk on the Internets is cheap. When it comes to reality (if this were true) who here would choose to go to Hell and burn forever?

I wouldn't.

Lol, i wouldnt either. How did such an obvious game throry question span 7 pages?
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline rickymooston

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #193 on: June 10, 2012, 08:28:13 AM »
Personally I think you're trying to provoke me to respond in a way so you can have me banned for life here, too

Why is that so easy to do?

You mentioned in your response, that you would not pretend believe

The scenario is, you are faced with CLEAR evidence for God, are staring at him in the face, forced to admit you were wrong and worship him or burn in hell.

Becsuse, yiu didnt answer the question, i would say hal's last smite was justified
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline HAL

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #194 on: June 10, 2012, 09:48:38 AM »
You have people here stating that they'd choose something they do not believe in,

That's not what the scenario is about.

At all.

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... and even if hypothetically it was all true, they'd pretend to believe just to spare themselves such a hell.

Again, another mental fail - if the scenario was hypothetically true they wouldn't be pretending to believe. You just rendered your entire response meaningless as pertains to this scenario. This is the reason you get into trouble on forums - you don't take the time to think about what you are reading. You're in too much of a hurry to show off your blustery facade.

If you actually read my posts from the original place this topic started from you'd have read that I have not only held a lit cigarette to my skin without flinching or crying, or screaming in pain but I have also done it with a cigar[1] and I once shot a staple from a staple gun int my left hand not a stapler, the staples for fence posts.
 1. Tampa Nugget

This prepares you for eternal torture? In Hell you might have a red hot cigar the size of a baseball bat shoved up your ass, and another shoved into your mouth, until they both meet in the middle of your guts, burning through all your internal organs. Lather, rinse, repeat. But I'll let the audience decide if they believe that what you experienced would prepare you oh tough one.

Personally I think you're trying to provoke me to respond in a way so you can have me banned for life here, too. It wouldn't be the first time someone's done that to me, and I doubt it'd be the last.

Have you ever been diagnosed with paranoia?

Well, its clearly an important issue to you for some reason that you prove that you know me better than I do myself - that you're willing to thoroughly piss a lot of people off to prove yourself right.

People got a little riled up for sure, but did you notice that most of them admitted in the end they would worship Biblegod rather than suffering eternal torture? I commend anyone who realizes their own humanity will rule the day in this scenario. I even got PM from members that don't want to post in the thread agreeing with me.

When I see people stating obviously wrong positions yes I keep at it until they understand they are wrong. Just like you are wrong, but have yet to admit it. I think you're beginning to realize it though, because you didn't address what was in my entire post to you. You will not choose eternal torture. I know this to be true. Don't pretend to be able to ignore your own frail humanity in front of an actual choice that would be before you - worship Biblegod or suffer eternal torture. I'll turn the tables on you Anfauglir - why is it so important to you that you keep at a position that you know you would not choose if you considered your own humanity in the face of the real thing? This is not like you at all. You are not going to sit there and say "Hmmm ... I don't know what this torture is going to be like so - fuck it - I'll take the chance! Send me to Hell Biblegod - Yay!" You won't take the slightest chance of risking unimaginable pain. Yea Anfauglir, I'm calling bullshit on you. I don't like doing this but someone has to.

You are not considering all the possibilities either. You have a family right, or loved ones? Suppose if this scenario were true you all were standing there and your wife (or loved ones) decided to buckle and worship Biblegod (well maybe she is a Christian now - I do not know), and so your children too? Even if you keep at this silly proposition that you would not worship Biblegod, you would change your mind and stay with your family if they decided to avoid eternal torture. So it just isn't believeable that you won't do it.

What I'm trying to do is make sure people don't get carried away with false bluster in their own minds. I've been on these forums for years bashing the imaginary character of Biblegod, and so have most of us. It's fun and since there's no good evidence it exists (or any other deity) there's no reason not to. But I know that if it were somehow proven to exist - all of us will quickly change our tunes (yes even mighty SuperNam) in the face of the real choice we'd have - worship it or suffer eternal torture. Anyone who claims otehrwise is fooling themselves (unless they are insane). This includes YOU.

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So you go ahead and enjoy it.

I'm not particularly enjoying it and I'm risking some people being mad at me, it takes a lot of time to respond to all the posts. Neither do I enjoy the thought of the scenario coming true.

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EDIT: Just noticed Nam's post above.  Seems he's pissed you off so much for some reason that everyone else involved is just collateral damage.

Nam takes a lot of work to get his mind straight on some things. I've known his personna for some time and it's mostly bluster behind a screen. I can pretty much tell when he's arguing just for the sake of arguing or not (hint, hint).

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #195 on: June 10, 2012, 03:03:45 PM »
Worshipping God because he wants worship,but does not care if you mean it is one thing,having to worship a God who can tell if you are doing it to avoid hell is another matter.

 To avoid eternal punishment by burning a few goats to please him,anybody would do that.....having him  see what you feel as you fake your way through it......would that NOT get you sent to hell?

 Anybody can fake worship.....
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Offline rickymooston

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #196 on: June 10, 2012, 03:14:07 PM »
Worshipping God because he wants worship,but does not care if you mean it is one thing,having to worship a God who can tell if you are doing it to avoid hell is another matter.

 To avoid eternal punishment by burning a few goats to please him,anybody would do that.....having him  see what you feel as you fake your way through it......would that NOT get you sent to hell?

 Anybody can fake worship.....

In the scenario presented, one hss to assume, the choice would not be a false one. That is, that you would not get burned for thought crimes
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline HAL

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #197 on: June 10, 2012, 04:13:03 PM »
Worshipping God because he wants worship,but does not care if you mean it is one thing,having to worship a God who can tell if you are doing it to avoid hell is another matter.

 To avoid eternal punishment by burning a few goats to please him,anybody would do that.....having him  see what you feel as you fake your way through it......would that NOT get you sent to hell?

It's not a problem. You're only human - He knows that. He's gonna forgive you of your sins if you worship him, that's the whole bargain. So if your mind strays, well, that's forgiven.

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Anybody can fake worship.....

No, I already explained this Monkeys. Worship is just the composite acts required of the deity to show reverence to it. You either do them or don't do them - you can't "fake" worship. If you do the acts you are worshiping no matter what you are thinking. The acts are worship.

Look, let's say I was the deity. I say to worship me you have to make a gallon of grape Kool Aid and pour it over the heads of the elders at my altar of PC cases I made you build. You do that and you are worshiping me, even all the while thinking what a stupid asshole I am. Even if I read your mind I don't give a shit what you think, just perform the worship or else. The acts are what I need to feel good because I'm into vanity - just like Biblegod. Just thinking I'm great isn't what I'm into - you gotta do stuff for me, even if it's stupid (read Leviticus if you don't know what I'm talking about). So Biblegod's vanity requires you do things - not think things. That's worship.

« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 04:14:44 PM by HAL »

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #198 on: June 10, 2012, 05:32:30 PM »
as I stated I can burm goats and not really have a second thought about it......can go to a worship hall and sing and not even think about it.....like so many Christians now who fake it as they go to church on Sunday,they are there,they are singing hymms.....then they are going home and fucking the baby-sitter,working on the Sabbath,not killing adulterers or homosexuals......they are doing the worship part and faking it the rest of the time not living according to the rules this God guy set out for them

 ANY moron can worship in this manner,just because I do the act of worship does not mean I have reverence for the diety or that I even care,I am just doing an act,like paying my taxes.....do I wanna NO,do I do it YES.....WHY? I do not have interest in the punishment they may have for me.

 I have poured the kool-aid on the heads of the elders,becuase you need it to avoid punishing me......are you happy ;D?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 05:35:45 PM by 12 Monkeys »
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #199 on: June 11, 2012, 06:48:04 AM »
Well, its clearly an important issue to you for some reason that you prove that you know me better than I do myself - that you're willing to thoroughly piss a lot of people off to prove yourself right.

People got a little riled up for sure, but did you notice that most of them admitted in the end they would worship Biblegod rather than suffering eternal torture? I commend anyone who realizes their own humanity will rule the day in this scenario. I even got PM from members that don't want to post in the thread agreeing with me.

When I see people stating obviously wrong positions yes I keep at it until they understand they are wrong. Just like you are wrong, but have yet to admit it. I think you're beginning to realize it though, because you didn't address what was in my entire post to you. You will not choose eternal torture. I know this to be true. Don't pretend to be able to ignore your own frail humanity in front of an actual choice that would be before you - worship Biblegod or suffer eternal torture. I'll turn the tables on you Anfauglir - why is it so important to you that you keep at a position that you know you would not choose if you considered your own humanity in the face of the real thing? This is not like you at all. You are not going to sit there and say "Hmmm ... I don't know what this torture is going to be like so - fuck it - I'll take the chance! Send me to Hell Biblegod - Yay!" You won't take the slightest chance of risking unimaginable pain. Yea Anfauglir, I'm calling bullshit on you. I don't like doing this but someone has to.

You are not considering all the possibilities either. You have a family right, or loved ones? Suppose if this scenario were true you all were standing there and your wife (or loved ones) decided to buckle and worship Biblegod (well maybe she is a Christian now - I do not know), and so your children too? Even if you keep at this silly proposition that you would not worship Biblegod, you would change your mind and stay with your family if they decided to avoid eternal torture. So it just isn't believeable that you won't do it.

What I'm trying to do is make sure people don't get carried away with false bluster in their own minds. I've been on these forums for years bashing the imaginary character of Biblegod, and so have most of us. It's fun and since there's no good evidence it exists (or any other deity) there's no reason not to. But I know that if it were somehow proven to exist - all of us will quickly change our tunes (yes even mighty SuperNam) in the face of the real choice we'd have - worship it or suffer eternal torture. Anyone who claims otehrwise is fooling themselves (unless they are insane). This includes YOU.

You are assuming that I've not given this any thought at all.  I have.  The question has been on my mind damn-near constantly since it was first posed.  And I hope that I would still have the strength of conviction to deny the creature that I firmly believe is a monster, no matter what happens to me.  Because if I don't, then what is the point?

It would mean that I would fall down in front of the thing I regard as most wrong, most evil, most despicable there could be.  You may feel that that is a position that can be taken easily - I don't.  Standing for what I think is right is important to me - though I DO have worries over whether I would, at time of crunch, have the strength to go through with it.  But to say, right here and now, "yeah, I'll do whatever to save myself?"  No, that I won't do - not least because it would be the start of the slippery path to justification that might be the tipping point to my caving in.

You claim that you know me.  Then you will also know how I would feel to accept that my personal safety means more to me than standing up for what is right.  The best people in the world, to me, are those who risk themselves for their convictions.  Your point - ultimately - is that every person in the world will ultimately choose self over conviction.  And if that's what is going to happen, then what IS the point?  If that's the final result, then all the "fun" we have hear is pointless - whistling past the graveyard, "I don't believe in spooks, I don't , I don't , I DON'T" - and to say that, when push comes to shove we would essentially recant on everything we ever bother saying here, then.....well, agree your point, and in my opinion it makes ALL our posturings here pointless and rather childish.

I further believe that even by pushing this point it makes this website pointless.  The committed Christians that come here KNOW that god exists.  So if you are correct, there is no way at all that they will ever renounce their god because of our sophistry and clever arguments that show how evil god really is.  Even if on some level they think we may be right, THEIR choice (of worship or burn) IS already being made.  Its not a hypothetical maybe some years down the line - its NOW, and always.  So not one person who knows Christ will have their position swayed by this website.

It also gives great support to the view that anyone who becomes an atheist was never truly a Christian.  Someone who is a Christian KNOWS god exists - and so, again, they make that choice on a daily basis.  You've stressed that there is only one choice to make in that position - continued belief and worship - so how could one lose belief in that position, knowing that to do so means they are making the "torture" choice?

From the position of the person who has experienced their god, that's how things are.  They can never renounce their god, no matter what we say - and they can quite honestly refute any "I was once a believer" argument with "no, you were not - you couldn't have been, else you'd never have chosen to forsake the salvation".

Your position might not make the True Christian position valid.  But it lends it a hell of a lot of support.

I know that doesn't make your position wrong.  But perhaps it makes it a position that we would collectively do better to stand against?

- - - - -

I even got PM from members that don't want to post in the thread agreeing with me.
Does that surprise you?  That someone who is so nervous about openly expressing an opinion on the interweb would succumb to threats from Yahweh?  I agree it supports your point, sure - I'd be surprised if it didn't happen - but so what?  I guess the meek really will inherit the earth.....
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline HAL

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #200 on: June 11, 2012, 06:57:07 AM »
Thanks for the reply - I'll be writing up a response this morning because you raise some good points that are important.

Offline Zankuu

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #201 on: June 11, 2012, 08:48:48 AM »
Wow, HAL really rustled some feathers with this thread.

To answer the OP: I would want to give Yahweh the middle finger and regret it for eternity.

But would I? It really is tough to answer, HAL. We're talking about bowing to the most monstrous being in existence versus the unimaginable horror of eternal torture crafted by an immortal. If Yahweh existed he would wield the power to break any mammal's frail body and mind. It's ridiculous to suggest his hell couldn't. Whatever we could imagine his torture would be like- it would be unimaginably worse. Prometheus having his intestines ripped out by birds, regrown, and ripped out again each day? Yahweh would make you beg for that type of lesser punishment.

Any person that claims they could handle it is blinded by selfrighteous thoughts of nobility and virtue. But I get why they'd want to say they could. Because what kind of person wouldn't stand up to an unjust tyrant? A coward. And nobody wants to be a coward. But we aren't talking about being a hero and dying for what is right or just. If Yahweh were to just kill me on the spot, I'd damn well take that stand and throw that middle finger at him. But that isn't what he would do. He would break me and anyone else within fractions of a second. And if you don't think you would break you haven't invested much thought into eternal torture. Yahweh could implant the most intense and emotional personal connections in your mind. He could make you feel the most agonizingly passionate love for the billions of people you shared this planet with, only to have them all disgustingly executed in your mind over, and over, and over again. All the while ripping your body to shreds. And this is for eternity. Can anyone sincerely say they can handle that?

I admit I couldn't.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Kimberly

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Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
« Reply #202 on: June 11, 2012, 12:01:03 PM »
Can anyone sincerely say they can handle that?

I admit I couldn't.

I don't think anyone who opposed HAL's position in the OP made the claim that they could handle it. The question wasn't could you handle it, or would you eventually concede and worship. The question is about your initial decision making. That is where some of us feel we would answer differently.
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.