If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?

[WeZzZzRURR]

What are your sources?  Where did you get this information?  Can it be verified?  Or does this story exist only in the imaginations of living, breathing people who have never experienced death?

This is why I kind of stated it as my belief of what hell is.  I'm not entirely sure what kind of picture the bible paints for hell, but that is what I interpret hell to be from what I've heard from the little things in the bible I have encountered on hell.  Its a generalized notion on my part that hell should be the ultimate suffering, now can you think of anything that would be more of an ultimate suffering than experiencing the suffering which when applied to you for an eternity over and over without getting "used" to it is the worse suffering you could possibly experience?

[HAL]

Guys remember this is a hypothetical - we aren't here to debate what the Bible says about it now. We're debating what Nam claims he would do given the alternatives he initially stated n the hypothetical.

[Kimberly]

I still don't think any definition of hell or worship has been presented that makes me change my mind.

If the bible says I'm going to hell, which I'm pretty sure we can all agree to that it does. Why not lie to myself, via giving myself the illusion that I have a choice? I can pretend that flipping god off and telling him what an asshole he is will do me any good on my way to this lake of fire. But it doesn't change the fact that according to the bible I'm destined to spend all eternity in the lake of fire. So yes, I would pick torment and torture long enough to pretend I had a choice any ways. It would be my last moment of power[1] and I would enjoy it for as briefly as it lasted. I don't see how pretending to agree to worship god long enough to be outed and sent to hell any ways is a better option??? Sorry HAL, but I respectfully disagree with you.

1.	However imaginary it may be.

[Kimberly]

Guys remember this is a hypothetical - we aren't here to debate what the Bible says about it now. We're debating what Nam claims he would do given the alternatives he initially stated n the hypothetical.

I don't get it... what exactly are we debating that doesn't directly reference what Nam claimed? He's offline now and no one can speak for him but I still don't see where he claimed anything I don't agree with.

You're welcome to try to change my mind, I'm open to debate. But so far I really don't see where Nam or OAA[1] was wrong to have or express the opinions they expressed and generally speaking I agree with both of them.

1.	whatever his name is, I can't see him on this page so IDK I could have those initials wrong.

[Kimberly]

I love my interpretation best (where Satan makes Hell awesome because they stuck it to God like he did did)

Are you referencing the Deistic version of hell? Cause I'd be more down with that.

[Death over Life]

As I've mentioned many times, I'll just ask God to pass me the Barbeque Sauce.

[Brakeman]

If biblegod existed, then I would both worship him without choice as a mere puppet, and despise and hate him while he burns me. I would also just die. Biblegod LOVES contradictions!

[Seppuku]

I love my interpretation best (where Satan makes Hell awesome because they stuck it to God like he did did)

Are you referencing the Deistic version of hell? Cause I'd be more down with that.

I don't know the Deistic version of hell, but I pretty much reasoned that Satan is not as bad as God portrays him and would totally dig people like us who have turned away from God and would be throwing us huge parties. All Satan ever wanted was to share God's power, but he was severely punished for it and he tempted man into knowledge. He totally wants us to see God's true nature, not the loving, kind and merciful God he portrays himself to be, but the selfish, cruel petty God. I don't think Satan would play a part in having his brothers and sisters of evil suffer. If hell exists, I'm sure we'll be sipping cocktails. However, the bible disagrees because we go to hell to suffer. Maybe this is a lie portrayed by God in the bible so that we do not give in to temptation?

[Anfauglir]

No sane human would realistically pick physical eternal torture when there is a way out of it less painful.

Just one quick question - Hal, since you will choose to worship Yahweh when the time comes, is there any point to you being an atheist now?  Indeed, is it a sane option?  After all, you could get hit by a bus any second, and then it'd be too late to choose.....so have you not, already, chosen the eternal torture?

[Anfauglir]

I simply do not think you can possibly say you would choose torment, because you haven't any idea of the real pain you are facing....

And that's the point: at the moment of choice, we DON'T know what the pain is like.  You've said yourself I think that we simply can't imagine what it would be like.....and for that reason, I believe Nam would indeed say "give me the torture" - as I hope I would.  Precisely because we haven't experienced it, at the moment we got the choice, I suspect quite a lot of people would reason that - because of the things they have experienced on earth - they could somehow cope.

I'm pretty sure that you'd be right though - ten seconds, ten minutes, or whatever into the actual experience of hell, we'd all be screaming and begging and crying and promising anything.  But that's AFTER the choice.  I think it was OAA who agreed they wouldn't be able to cope, but would still choose it, and I think - I think - that's what I would choose too.

Nam is right.  He would choose the torture. 
Hal is right.  Nobody would be able to cope.

[Seppuku]

I think it's easier to say that we'd make that choice when we're not expected to make that choice. Whilst we don't know what it's like, but surely we'd realise before we'd make the decision the extent at which suffering can break a man.

Nam may even may think he could withstand the pain enough to be able to make the decision and not regret it. But until that decision has to made you will not know what choice you may take unless you've had to face such a thing before. Just as man does not know what'll he do if a man points a gun to somebody's head. Most would like to think they would do all they could to stop him from pulling the trigger because it's the right thing to do and it may stand by their principles. But until they're put into that situation they don't know what they'll do. One of our most basic instincts is survival & self preservation and usually that's what it comes down to and it's a question of whether or not you have the strength to bypass that.

[Kimberly]

Just one quick question - Hal, since you will choose to worship Yahweh when the time comes, is there any point to you being an atheist now?  Indeed, is it a sane option?  After all, you could get hit by a bus any second, and then it'd be too late to choose.....so have you not, already, chosen the eternal torture?

QFT

[Kimberly]

I don't know the Deistic version of hell, but I pretty much reasoned that Satan is not as bad as God portrays him and would totally dig people like us who have turned away from God and would be throwing us huge parties. All Satan ever wanted was to share God's power, but he was severely punished for it and he tempted man into knowledge. He totally wants us to see God's true nature, not the loving, kind and merciful God he portrays himself to be, but the selfish, cruel petty God. I don't think Satan would play a part in having his brothers and sisters of evil suffer. If hell exists, I'm sure we'll be sipping cocktails. However, the bible disagrees because we go to hell to suffer. Maybe this is a lie portrayed by God in the bible so that we do not give in to temptation?

That is basically my limited understanding of Deism in a nutshell. It might be a little off on some of the details but basically that's how I understand it. I only read about it briefly a few years ago so I reserve the right to be wrong.

[Anfauglir]

And yet there are multiple examples throughout history of people who - when the crunch came - made the decision that personal suffering was something they would rather experience than to bend the knee to something they thought was unconscionable.

And clearly people have made the decision that they will go for the torture route (though as I said they may have regretted it later) because torture still happens.  If everyone would cave in before the torture actually begins, then nobody would ever be tortured, surely?  All the information required, all the obeisance demanded, would happen right from the first moment.  After all, if we all realise that "suffering can break a man", then the rational option is to always - always - throw up your hands before it even starts.

That's not to say that 99.9999999%+ of the brave people who opted for torture didn't eventually break, or regret it, or at some stage beg for mercy.  But they took that decision.  And that's why I am confident that some of us here would be able to say "torture, not obedience" at the moment of truth, even if moments later they came to regret it.

I hope I'd be one.  I think I would.  But - like Nam and OAA says - I have to be the person best equipped to predict that call.

[Hatter23]

No sane human would realistically pick physical eternal torture when there is a way out of it less painful.

Just one quick question - Hal, since you will choose to worship Yahweh when the time comes, is there any point to you being an atheist now?  Indeed, is it a sane option?  After all, you could get hit by a bus any second, and then it'd be too late to choose.....so have you not, already, chosen the eternal torture?

This falls into just having a list of all the 10000 plus dieties mankind has worshipped and asking why not obey every single contradictory demand.

[jynnan tonnix]

This falls into just having a list of all the 10000 plus dieties mankind has worshipped and asking why not obey every single contradictory demand.

Exactly...I got to this thread late as well, and keep finding that all the points I want to bring up have already been made for me. But this is really just Pascal's Wager again. For all of us who say they would buckle and choose worship over torture when it came right down to it, the argument could be made that in that case we should be faking the worship all along since we have already made a choice we know we will regret just by our atheism. However, not knowing which god, or which version of said god will keep us from eternal torture is the rub. That and the fact that an omniscient god would be well aware of deception.

I wonder, Wezzr, how you feel about god's way of dealing with disbelief (or non-worship, or both) since you seem to be firmly in the camp of hell as eternal, unimaginable suffering. Do you see it as a just punishment for someone who lives a life at least as moral (and quite possibly moreso) as that of a lifelong, devoted Christian but simply does not believe in god? Or perhaps believes in a different god? Or are you among those who feel that a good, upright person is not destined for hell despite their non-belief? I know you have said that you don't necessarily believe everything the Bible has to say, which seems like cherry-picking so you can continue in the worship of a deity formed more of your own feelings (Self Projection as God-- SPAG, which was brought up earlier in either this thread or the original one, but which I don't think you had any comment on).

Do you really find a deity who considers eternal torture a just punishment for a short lifetime of possibly misguided beliefs worthy of worship?

[Anfauglir]

Just one quick question - Hal, since you will choose to worship Yahweh when the time comes, is there any point to you being an atheist now?  Indeed, is it a sane option?  After all, you could get hit by a bus any second, and then it'd be too late to choose.....so have you not, already, chosen the eternal torture?

This falls into just having a list of all the 10000 plus dieties mankind has worshipped and asking why not obey every single contradictory demand.

Maybe so.  But that's not all there is.  If Hal is indeed asserting that - when the crunch comes - he will immediately abandon his own moral code in favour of his own well-being, then I can't take with any seriousness any claims made by Hal that there is anything wrong with any of that god's actions or morals.  Like he says - easy for him to diss god and all his morals on an internet forum.  But if he is so positive that he will recant everything without a thought, then I'm not sure how his moral code is in any way superior to that of the god he will bow down to. 

If someone is on record as saying "I would cast aside everything I believe in to save myself", why should I care what that person's views are on anything, since they admit they will change as soon as the guy with the big stick shows up?

[Hatter23]

Just one quick question - Hal, since you will choose to worship Yahweh when the time comes, is there any point to you being an atheist now?  Indeed, is it a sane option?  After all, you could get hit by a bus any second, and then it'd be too late to choose.....so have you not, already, chosen the eternal torture?

This falls into just having a list of all the 10000 plus dieties mankind has worshipped and asking why not obey every single contradictory demand.

Maybe so.  But that's not all there is.  If Hal is indeed asserting that - when the crunch comes - he will immediately abandon his own moral code in favour of his own well-being, then I can't take with any seriousness any claims made by Hal that there is anything wrong with any of that god's actions or morals. 

Quite the opposite for me. It demostrates to me that Hal isn't kidding himself, that when faced with an impossible to defeat opponent and eternal torture, he would submit. Anyone who states otherwise isn't honest. However, that is one god and one morality out of many, many, many...which invalidates the "why won't you submit now" question that you propose. Because it is the same question as "If you were willing to suck Superman's dick, why aren't you preparing to do so now by sucking the dick of superman fans?"

[Nam]

Just one quick question - Hal, since you will choose to worship Yahweh when the time comes, is there any point to you being an atheist now?  Indeed, is it a sane option?  After all, you could get hit by a bus any second, and then it'd be too late to choose.....so have you not, already, chosen the eternal torture?

This falls into just having a list of all the 10000 plus dieties mankind has worshipped and asking why not obey every single contradictory demand.

Maybe so.  But that's not all there is.  If Hal is indeed asserting that - when the crunch comes - he will immediately abandon his own moral code in favour of his own well-being, then I can't take with any seriousness any claims made by Hal that there is anything wrong with any of that god's actions or morals. 

Quite the opposite for me. It demostrates to me that Hal isn't kidding himself, that when faced with an impossible to defeat opponent and eternal torture, he would submit. Anyone who states otherwise isn't honest. However, that is one god and one morality out of many, many, many...which invalidates the "why won't you submit now" question that you propose. Because it is the same question as "If you were willing to suck Superman's dick, why aren't you preparing to do so now by sucking the dick of superman fans?"

So, no one's ever fought a fight they knew they were going to lose? No one has died from a result of such a thing? I guess you've never been in a war?[1] No one has, really? I mean how those in other countries[2], who willingly enter the "fire" so to speak, when they know they won't survive? People makw these choices every day, and to say atheists (or imply) wouldn't is insult to the atheist community. I mean, they don't have Heaven to look forward to so why would they be selfish enough to risk their lives for nothingness?

This is what it sounds like you're saying to me. If someone believes, going in, they won't survive, what makes that different to one deciding hell over blind worship.

I mean, as it's been stated: aren't we all choosing hell now? Honestly, "we" don't know if Biblegod truly exists or not, we just believe it doesn't based on the information out there.

-Nam[3]

1.	neither have I but that's not the point
2.	or this one
3.	I apologize for quoting all, I'm on the phone.

[HAL]

I'm just going to make a few quick points. First of all this isn't a case of dieing and then finding out that Biblegod is real. If that was true of course you wouldn't have a choice, and I'd be going down to Hell and having to suffer eternal torture. This is a case of somehow having Biblegod proven to exist BEFORE you die. I am sorry if that wasn't clear at first. I don't worship Biblegod now because I do not believe it exists. If it were proven to exist - you are god damn right I'd worship it to avoid Hell if that was the only way to get out of eternal torture.

And that's the point: at the moment of choice, we DON'T know what the pain is like.  You've said yourself I think that we simply can't imagine what it would be like.....and for that reason, I believe Nam would indeed say "give me the torture" - as I hope I would.  Precisely because we haven't experienced it, at the moment we got the choice, I suspect quite a lot of people would reason that - because of the things they have experienced on earth - they could somehow cope.

All we are doing is typing words on keyboards right now. I know having lived a while that when it comes down to it, you will break under torture, and that's only human torture. I'm being realistic in all this, I don't pretend to be tougher than I am. I know you would not pick eternal torture because you are human. It's easy to say you would on a keyboard. That doesn't impress me however. Keep reading ...

I'm pretty sure that you'd be right though - ten seconds, ten minutes, or whatever into the actual experience of hell, we'd all be screaming and begging and crying and promising anything.  But that's AFTER the choice.  I think it was OAA who agreed they wouldn't be able to cope, but would still choose it, and I think - I think - that's what I would choose too.

I don't think you would choose it. Let me torture you in my garage for a couple of hours to impress into you how bad it will be, then imagine that going on forever. You wouldn't choose eternal torture. I KNOW this, because if you are human you won't - unless as I've said you are insane. Come to my garage Anfauglir, and sit down as I come for your teeth with a titanium bit in my drill. You'll be bauling like a baby before I even press the trigger because you know that the pain coming is intolerable, excruciating, too much to take. Are you even a Navy SEAL or commando trained to tolerate torture. Man I like you a lot but - don't tell me you would do otherwise if a god was in charge of your torture - it's simply not believable.

Nam is right.  He would choose the torture. 
Hal is right.  Nobody would be able to cope.

I don't agree that Nam would choose it in actuality. He's just acting tough behind a keyboard like OAA, that's all. That's easy to do.

And clearly people have made the decision that they will go for the torture route (though as I said they may have regretted it later) because torture still happens.  If everyone would cave in before the torture actually begins, then nobody would ever be tortured, surely?  All the information required, all the obeisance demanded, would happen right from the first moment.  After all, if we all realise that "suffering can break a man", then the rational option is to always - always - throw up your hands before it even starts.

Ah but there's one problem you are overlooking sir - human torture is only finite in both time and intensity. Remember we're assuming for this thread that Biblegod was proven to exist. Humans who undergo torture on earth by other humans can take it for a short while perhaps, but there's always an end - either they break or they die. Both end the torture. Under this scenario if you choose not to worship Biblegod the torture NEVER ends. Do you now understand why no human who is sane will choose it?

Besides, the torture you are given might be the thing you refused to do in the first place when you think you would choose torture - the torture could be you being made to worship Biblegod anyway by any means necessary - body control - making you go through the actions of worship, or even mind control brainwashing you so that you worship the deity anyway while having the realization all the while you are worshiping it. It could also make you torture your loved ones in Hell if they go there. How would you like to administer torture to your children or wife or loved pet in Hell? Would you like to drill holes in your wife's brain with a hammer drill? How about making your child drink sulfuric acid? I'm sorry for the graphic language but I have to get my point across - you have no idea what you are talking about if you choose torture from a deity. Who knows how else it could make you suffer? Don't think you are smarter than this deity you are confronting here. I realize this, as you should.

So again, and I'm not ashamed of this, if Bible god were to be proven real before I die - you are god damn right I'll worship it.

[HAL]

I do think this is a interesting topic, I'm not sure we've talked about it before. Have we?

But I forgot I wanted to add this about worship. Here's a definition -

wor·ship
   [wur-ship] Show IPA noun, verb, wor·shiped, wor·ship·ing or ( especially British ) wor·shipped, wor·ship·ping.
noun
1.
reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
2.
formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/worship

I don't think worship is the actual belief that the thing you are worshiping is deserved of the worship. I think worship is just doing what the thing asking for worship requires for worship. For example, if Biblegod told me in order to worship it I had to drip lambs blood on my big toe and build an altar just so and take off every Sunday to burn pleasing aromas for it to sniff - then if I did those things, I'd actually be worshiping it just fine. I might think it's a bloody asshole but that's what I thought about my last boss too, yet I still did what she asked of me and took home a paycheck. That's self-preservation, doing things you dislike for your own good.

So yea, I'd follow through with whatever it required me to do to worship it. So what if I had to do a few of those things I mentioned? Big Deal. How much time does it take? Yea I'll suck it up and do them, and when I died, I'd eat my chocolate covered strawberries 24/7 or whatever else you do in Heaven. It's too bad the rest of you wouldn't be there to join me (under this fictitious scenario that is). You'd be having ice picks jammed into your eardrums and flamethrowers roasting your body parts, but there's nothing I could do about it.

I'm an agnostic atheist and don't believe in Biblegod, but I never said I wouldn't worship it if it was proven beyond a doubt to exist. At least I don't think I ever said that.

Fortunately, I don't believe it exists and neither do the most of the rest of us, so just keep that in mind. We won't have to endure any of this.

[flapdoodle64]

I remember once about 10 years ago talking with an ex-Navy Intelligence guy.  He said that prior to Viet Nam, the military taught guys they could resist physical and psychological torture, that only cowards gave in.  But after Viet Nam, all these repatriated guys came back and they debriefed them and the concensus view was that EVERYONE has a breaking point...maybe your captors won't find yours, but at some point you WILL break, given enough time and given a creative enough captor. 

I am 48.  When I was young, I thought I was brave.  And sometimes I've been brave.  But I've also been scared out of my wits a number of times, scared enough to do almost anything to get out of the situation.  A lot of guys have found out that sometimes your nerve desserts you when you need it, and you don't always know when that will happen. 

History shows that most people, confronted with a powerful and bloodthirsty dictator, will put on a show of obedience and try to survive.  History also shows that most people will crack under torture, even to the point of signing false confessions. 

I think for MOST of us, if we KNEW Biblegod was real, and that we really did have the choice between worshipping him and an eternity of the worst torture, we'd opt for the former. 

As animals, for most of our history, we've had to live under the thumb of torturing tyrants, and we're adapted to that psychologically. 

It's one thing to take up arms on the battlefield against a tyrant, because then you have the chance of dying relatively quickly on the battlefield.  I might take that option.  But if you knew the tyrant would win the battle, capture you alive, and torture you for eternity no matter what, I seriously doubt you'd do it. 

And this is one of the reasons Xianity survives. 

And one of the benefits of atheism is that you don't have to spend your life pretending to love someone only under threat of pain. 

Unless you are married.

[learnin]

You didn't answer the questions I asked. My point was to truly worship doesn't mean falsely pretend to worship for fear of hellfire.

My point is you would truly worship it before choosing Hell though. I believe your meager human mind would crumble, as would mine. All this talk of standing up to a real god and choosing eternal Hell is just cheap talk, IMHO. It's easy to type out these brazen claims sitting behind a computer screen, but my speculation if all this was true is that you, as I, being mere frail humans, would really worship it. I do not see any way you would be able to not do it.

But, doesn't biblegod say you have to love him above all things?   Sorry, somone already addressed this issue.

[Seppuku]

So, no one's ever fought a fight they knew they were going to lose? No one has died from a result of such a thing?

Death is one thing, eternal torture is something else. Death is over quick, you may be willing to sacrifice yourself for others or die for your principles. And because we're atheists who don't believe in life after death, it all ends there as far as we can see.

That's nothing compared to eternal. Nothing in our finite existence could compare to eternal torture because eternal torture has one thing that gives it the upper hand. It's eternal and all things we could use to compare in terms of 'pain & suffering' in our finite existence, are small because they're only finite and no matter how horrible and cruel they are they will end - there is mercy, be it in death or in being saved from the pain & torture. Eternal torture, It never stops. Ever. That's the point and that's how religious folks scare people into their religion and scare people into following the bible. It's this kind of pain and suffering that religious folks want to save us from, because they believe that's what's going to happen to us.

I am sure you know what eternal torture means and I am sure if the choice were to come how you react might not necessarily be what you'd like it to be. And you know, principally I wouldn't want to spend time in heaven knowing great people were in hell, it'd make me very comfortable, I'd feel guilty and it would feel right if I was there with them holding it out with them and holding it out strong and being amongst people who are like me. I wouldn't want to give in to a tyrant as foul and cruel as bible-God, let alone delude myself into worship. But I know that like every man I have a threshold, I have a limit by which I can be broken (and it's a very bold statements to say that you can't) and there's a whole eternity for my will to be broken. Eventually all my principles, all that I stand for, all that I once considered important would mean nothing, because regardless of how my principles guided me when I was alive in the end never truly achieved anything - as in the end it only comes down to 2 things. As a man who would at that point be broken, all that would matter is for the pain to end and I may toss all principles aside so that I may beg for forgiveness in hope that God would show his mercy.

Also bear in mind no man is ever deserving of eternal torture either, because at some people they will have been given justice for the crimes, even mass murdering fuck heads like Hitler.

So as far as I can see, with eternal torture God wins, it may take longer for him to win, but he will win nonetheless. I think if given the choice, you take the easy way out, you'd be a fool not to.

It's a horrible thought, but I know what hell means and I know what God is, the bible states it very clearly and it's not pretty. He's not the only god in the history of man to be that horrific. If any of those gods are real and nobody knows if any of them are, having the right belief is merely a lottery game.

[Azdgari]

I don't think worship is the actual belief that the thing you are worshiping is deserved of the worship. I think worship is just doing what the thing asking for worship requires for worship. ...

It gets muddier when the subject of worship can read your thoughts, too.

[learnin]

Whatever bible hell might consist of, bible god compared it's suffering to the pain of fire.  Now.  Picture yourself being cooked on a hot griddle alive.  This cooking does not stop and never gets less...you don't get used to it.  When we talk eternal, we mean that the pain never lessens, it's just as horrible ten million years down the road as the first minute your flesh starts to cook on that griddle.  Every human being, without exception, will do anything possible to stop such torture.

[HAL]

But, doesn't biblegod say you have to love him above all things?

I have a Siamese cat that has the same requirement. As far as it's concerned, I am satisfying that requirement by everything it sees me do.

History shows that most people, confronted with a powerful and bloodthirsty dictator, will put on a show of obedience and try to survive.  History also shows that most people will crack under torture, even to the point of signing false confessions. 

I think for MOST of us, if we KNEW Biblegod was real, and that we really did have the choice between worshipping him and an eternity of the worst torture, we'd opt for the former. 

Right on analogy. Earthly confrontations are one thing. The worst that can happen is you die and that's that (as far as the Earthly confrontation is concerned). Eternal torture is quite another. These tough-typers on the internet would change their tune when faced with it. You cannot possibly win, so you might as well face it and make the best of the situation. If you don't, then I guess that's natural selection at work. Oh, what a strange result - LOL.

It gets muddier when the subject of worship can read your thoughts, too.

I know. But what is love after all? Just pure thoughts or actions too? Like my Siamese cat, if I do everything that's required to show love towards it, don't I love it as far as it's concerned? I mean, if I didn't love her, but still did all the same things, what's the effective difference? So too perhaps with Biblegod. It doesn't say how it can tell if you love it, but isn't the act of worship what it requires to show that? If it could sense that you love it, then why would it require worship to show it?  Maybe it can't "read" love so it invented a requirement for worship. I don't know. All I know is if it was somehow proven that Biblegod was real before I died, I'd try to get out of Hell any way possible. Every man for himself (or woman).

What would you do under this scenario Azdgari? I'd like to know.

[Nam]

So, no one's ever fought a fight they knew they were going to lose? No one has died from a result of such a thing?

Death is one thing, eternal torture is something else. Death is over quick, you may be willing to sacrifice yourself for others or die for your principles. And because we're atheists who don't believe in life after death, it all ends there as far as we can see.

That's nothing compared to eternal. Nothing in our finite existence could compare to eternal torture because eternal torture has one thing that gives it the upper hand. It's eternal and all things we could use to compare in terms of 'pain & suffering' in our finite existence, are small because they're only finite and no matter how horrible and cruel they are they will end - there is mercy, be it in death or in being saved from the pain & torture. Eternal torture, It never stops. Ever. That's the point and that's how religious folks scare people into their religion and scare people into following the bible. It's this kind of pain and suffering that religious folks want to save us from, because they believe that's what's going to happen to us.

I am sure you know what eternal torture means and I am sure if the choice were to come how you react might not necessarily be what you'd like it to be. And you know, principally I wouldn't want to spend time in heaven knowing great people were in hell, it'd make me very comfortable, I'd feel guilty and it would feel right if I was there with them holding it out with them and holding it out strong and being amongst people who are like me. I wouldn't want to give in to a tyrant as foul and cruel as bible-God, let alone delude myself into worship. But I know that like every man I have a threshold, I have a limit by which I can be broken (and it's a very bold statements to say that you can't) and there's a whole eternity for my will to be broken. Eventually all my principles, all that I stand for, all that I once considered important would mean nothing, because regardless of how my principles guided me when I was alive in the end never truly achieved anything - as in the end it only comes down to 2 things. As a man who would at that point be broken, all that would matter is for the pain to end and I may toss all principles aside so that I may beg for forgiveness in hope that God would show his mercy.

Also bear in mind no man is ever deserving of eternal torture either, because at some people they will have been given justice for the crimes, even mass murdering fuck heads like Hitler.

So as far as I can see, with eternal torture God wins, it may take longer for him to win, but he will win nonetheless. I think if given the choice, you take the easy way out, you'd be a fool not to.

It's a horrible thought, but I know what hell means and I know what God is, the bible states it very clearly and it's not pretty. He's not the only god in the history of man to be that horrific. If any of those gods are real and nobody knows if any of them are, having the right belief is merely a lottery game.

Tell that to the people who've been held in captivity for years. I mean, I read awhile back in this article who was captured by some guerillas in South America somewhere, where they had him in not so humane conditions for more than 12 years and they finally released him under some truce. That guy endured who know what sort of horrible conditions for more than 12 years and he never gave in; he never chose the easy way out[1], and survived. Now, granted that's not "eternity" but I've read about, and seen documentaries where people lived in all sorts of "hell" for many years. Now, I'm not saying I'm these people but based on my life experience, and mentally what I know I can endure, I believe i'd go their route if I were in their shoes.

-Nam

1.	I.e. suicide

[flapdoodle64]

Tell that to the people who've been held in captivity for years. I mean, I read awhile back in this article who was captured by some guerillas in South America somewhere, where they had him in not so humane conditions for more than 12 years and they finally released him under some truce. That guy endured who know what sort of horrible conditions for more than 12 years and he never gave in; he never chose the easy way out[1], and survived. Now, granted that's not "eternity" but I've read about, and seen documentaries where people lived in all sorts of "hell" for many years. Now, I'm not saying I'm these people but based on my life experience, and mentally what I know I can endure, I believe i'd go their route if I were in their shoes.

1.	I.e. suicide

That's an anecdote.  Like the anecdotes of people who survived concentration camps and then lived happy lives w/o suffering PTSD.  Probably true.  But:

Military intelligence in the USA today assumes everyone has a breaking point (see my previous post).  Maybe some people are lucky or stronger or more peculiar, and the war is over before they reach the breaking point.  But everyone has one. 

It's never wise to base your expectations on unusual cases, exceptions to the rule, or persons with superhuman tolerances to adversity. 

Biblegod is certainly powerful and clever enough to find the torture that would affect you (his followers are excellent torturers!), and he has all eternity to do it. 

The factor of pain or stress expirienced over time is a huge consideration.  In my former job, I saw normally patient people become literally murderous when exposed to certain stimuli 24/7 for a period of years...