If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?

[One Above All]

As I've already explained, you're basically just being an internet tough guy when it comes to this topic, as is Nam.
<snip>

HAL, you must point out where I said that I'd be able to handle it.
All I said is that I'd prefer it to bowing down to something that is as far away from perfect[1] as possible[2] Who are you to say that I would/do not? The answer is "nobody". You don't know me better than I know myself. Not everyone thinks like you do. Actually, nobody thinks like you do. That's why you're "you" and we're not.

I will make one caveat - if you are insane then I would understand your thinking that you would have a preference of real eternal torture to {not} real eternal torture. Are you insane?

I'd rather not say. Let's leave it a mystery.

1.	By my definition.
2.	Hyperbole.

[screwtape]

Let's leave it a mystery.

It's not a mystery.

[One Above All]

It's not a mystery.

I know. I just wanted to use that line. I am obviously sane.

[HAL]

OK let step through this mess slowly so at least the audience can see what's going on.

HAL, you must point out where I said that I'd be able to handle it.

Point 1 - You admit you can't handle it (eternal torture)

All I said is that I'd prefer it to bowing down to something that is as far away from perfect as possible

Point 2 - But ... you'd prefer eternal torture to {not} eternal torture (bowing down), but you can't handle eternal torture. Woops, we got a problem folks.

If you can't handle eternal torture then you will not prefer it because you have a choice (in this hypothetical scenario) - there is a way to not be eternally tortured (a thing you admit you can't handle). There is a way to not have the thing done to you that you admit you can't handle. You will not prefer a thing you can't handle if there is any alternative less physically painful. If this was a real scenario you would be certifiably insane to choose the thing you can't handle.

Who are you to say that I would/do not? The answer is "nobody". You don't know me better than I know myself.

No sane human would realistically pick physical eternal torture when there is a way out of it less painful. If that seems arrogant you are mistaken. It's simple human nature (for sane people). You wouldn't and won't pick it, of that I'm 100% confident. I god damn sure wouldn't pick it, I'm not going to be arrogant and try to say something so nutty as I could choose eternal torture meted out by a god over ANY less painful alternative. You wouldn't even do it if simple human torture was applied to you. You can stop being an internet tough guy now.

I will make one caveat - if you are insane then I would understand your thinking that you would have a preference of real eternal torture to {not} real eternal torture. Are you insane?

I'd rather not say. Let's leave it a mystery.

I think the mystery is becoming less mysterious.

[flapdoodle64]

Getting back to the question in the OP, I'd have to admit I would fall in and give this tyrant his insincere worship and start looking to see if he has a potential weakness and try to fall in with the underground and revolt.

Obviously, if Biblegod were real and were reasonably close to his depiction in that book, there would likely be weaknesses.  He wants worship from humans, and it appears that even though he claims to be omnipotent, when you consider all that happens on planet earth alone, let alone the universe, that seems dubious.   I'd be looking for weaknesses in his systems of control. 

Also, the desire to be worshipped and the obsession with sex acts and sadism all suggest that god is nuts...dangerous and crafty perhaps, but nuts.  If a dictator is insane, it's a weakness and there might be some way to exploit it.

But even given weaknesses in god's powers, it doesn't take much technology and power to be able to torture someone into total agony.  So even though god might not be as powerful as he claims, I would bet that he could have me screaming in agony pretty quick.  After all, his followers have traditionally been highly expert at all manner of tortures. 

[HAL]

Getting back to the question in the OP, I'd have to admit I would fall in and give this tyrant his insincere worship and start looking to see if he has a potential weakness and try to fall in with the underground and revolt.

Thanks for being honest.

Of course you would - it's nothing to be ashamed of. I would too. We all would, and I don't think that's an arrogant statement on my part. Typing words on a keyboard stating you can stand up to the eternal torture of a deity is where the arrogance lies, not with my points. At least I'd give it a try even if it was just going through the motions of worship. Maybe it wouldn't be good enough, but I'm damn sure going to try to get out of going to Hell. Live to fight another day.

[One Above All]

<snip>

You're assuming I can handle bowing down and worshiping imperfection for eternity, as well as everything else that heaven would entail. I can't. It's worse (for me) than physical pain. I'm choosing what I consider right, and that in itself makes torture seem better than worship.

I think the mystery is becoming less mysterious.

Yup. As I mentioned before, I'm sane.

[HAL]

You're assuming I can handle bowing down and worshiping imperfection for eternity, as well as everything else that heaven would entail. I can't. It's worse (for me) than physical pain.

Nice bold statement, but it's not believable. You aren't that tough, because you are merely a human. You will not be able to do it.

[One Above All]

Nice bold statement, but it's not believable.

To whom? Ah, right... you. Sorry, HAL, but you're not psychic. You don't know me.

You aren't that tough, because you are merely a human. You will not be able to do it.

Don't project your flaws onto me, HAL. You aren't that tough. You will (sic) not be able to do it. I know myself, and I can damn well say that I can and would do it.

[HAL]

I know myself, and I can damn well say that I can and would do it.

I know you can say it, but that's just being an internet tough guy behind a screen. You are a mere human and will not be able to do it. No way, no how son. You will buckle at the first sign of pain, and that's just at the first sign. You have no clue at the amount of pain or time periods we're taking about. You are just a human and so will not be able to take torture from a deity.

You will be with me and the others trying as hard as possible to get our asses out of it any way we can.

[One Above All]

<snip>

HAL, I'm starting to think that you're projecting because you consider your choice to be the wrong one, and just want everyone else to do the wrong thing.

Oh well. I'm done here. I don't need you to believe me. Keep on thinking that you know me better than I know myself if it makes you feel better.

[HAL]

So you are The One? The One? The One that can take torture from a deity no matter what it is or how long it is? The One that can choose this even if you could get out of it another way?

Can you tell the audience how you are able to achieve this remarkable feat? How have you prepared for this monumental task? Are you bringing a bag full of nails to bite down on? Come tell us how you are able to endure it all - what training you have?

I know how you prepared - you debate others on the internets. You got through a tough year at school once? You got through losing a girlfriend? Maybe some other great trial in your life? Or like Nam you had a staple in your skin once?

Oh - you are going to get through it because you typed it out on a computer screen? Once typed out, it is a done deal.

Sounds like you are really ready! Bring it Biblegod!

[flapdoodle64]

The one fear I have regarding hell in our actual world, as opposed to the hypothetical world is this:

Human brains are subject to hallucinations, delusions, and dreams.  Certain mental states and wildly distort time perception. 

Potentially, in the last remaining seconds of life, due perhaps to one's deteriorating medical condition, one's brain might have a kind of dream of hell, and within the distorted timeframe of the mind, it could seem like literally forever (and might as well be, since one's consciousness ends when the dream ends...). 

There are reports of some near death patients having hell-dreams as well as heaven dreams.

In my own experience, I recall nightmares, but I take comfort in the fact that in my dreams, I don't ever recall feeling actual physical pain. 

I think this one reason I stay far from religion...I don't want to be downloading more of the Xian BS about hell...I want to try to push out obsolete files in my brain that were made by my parents and the church when I was a kid. 

[WeZzZzRURR]

This is an interesting thread! =)

I would like to offer a little of my opinion on what hell would be, and then leave it up to you guys to decide of knowing what hell would be like, you would instantly choose over believing in your bible god. 

I believe that first of all, we lack the words to define the torture that would be presented to us in hell.  To add to this, I believe that each individual's experience in hell would differ depending on what they would consider to be true suffering.  Basically,  I believe that the idea of hell is to be the absolute worse suffering for each individual person, which words could not describe, and for anyone to really claim that just because they're tough in our mortal world and can take pain, this toughness and high tolerance of pain does not translate to an eternity of suffering in hell. 

I have always felt that I have had an incredibly high tolerance of pain, such a tolerance that has freaked out people in the past.... But by no means do I believe that I could stand up to the suffering that would be present to me in hell.

I would also like to agree that I would not be able to truly worship the bible god in which you guys speak, now before this topic turns from what it is now to you guys debating me on the ideal that I already do believe in a bible god, I would like to state that I need to research the bible and the contradictions pointed out to me myself before I put my all behind the bible... Just know that my belief of God comes first before my belief in the bible.

[Seppuku]

I propose an experiment! HAL kidnaps One Above All, ties him to a chair and tortures him constantly with no mercy and the only way he can get out of it is to propose to Shirley Phelps, HAL documents the torture. How many years of torture would suffice? I don't think it'd be possible to emulate an eternity.

Or is this too extreme for science?

It's just as well that I didn't persue the dream of being a psychologist further than I did. Think of all those poor test subjects. At least they'd all have cake.

[HAL]

To add to this, I believe that each individual's experience in hell would differ depending on what they would consider to be true suffering.  Basically,  I believe that the idea of hell is to be the absolute worse suffering for each individual person, which words could not describe, and for anyone to really claim that just because they're tough in our mortal world and can take pain, this toughness and high tolerance of pain does not translate to an eternity of suffering in hell. 

Now I have a new idea. One Above All (OAA) states that he would rather choose eternal Hell rather than worship Biblegod. But let's say that his suffering in Hell is exactly what he refuses to do to prevent him from going to Hell in the first place. He either chooses to worship Biblegod and stay out of Hell getting all the other benefits of afterlife out of Hell, or if he refuses, he has to worship Biblegod forever with no breaks.

Interesting. I wonder what he would do? Ah well guess we'll never know now -

Oh well. I'm done here.

I propose an experiment! HAL kidnaps One Above All, ties him to a chair and tortures him constantly with no mercy and the only way he can get out of it is to propose to Shirley Phelps, HAL documents the torture. How many years of torture would suffice? I don't think it'd be possible to emulate an eternity. those poor test subjects. At least they'd all have cake.

If I could and would really torture someone? Oh my - OAA wouldn't last very long. My goodness, as soon as he saw me coming with a titanium bit in my cordless drill aiming for his teeth in one hand, and a ball peen hammer aiming for his kneecaps in the other, he'd probably start bauling like a baby before I got close enough to do any damage. Now multiply that times a whole shitload more coming from Biblegod. He's not going to choose it.

You see when it comes to excruciating pain everyone will break. Who the Hell is OAA - is he a Navy SEAL, an Army commando, or some person that has even been trained to deal with a torture situation (not that that would help for very long)? He's just some kid loose on the internets that doesn't know what he's talking about, in this scenario at least.

[Kimberly]

Why are all the interesting threads 3 pages deep before I get to find them???

HAL, I just wanted to take a moment to let you know that I officially agree with Nam and have had a similar position to his since my deconversion some many years ago. Now I have a few questions that I've been meaning to ask you guys for awhile about "hell" but I'm gonna read the last two pages to make sure my answers aren't already here first.

Thanks for letting me interrupt the conversation long enough to say I agree with Nam[1]. I have to get the baby down for a nap before I thoroughly reply, so it may take a min and you guys are prob gonna be another 3 pages deep by then!

1.	I will be back with questions and comments soon, but I really had to let you know HAL, I figured you might enjoy knowing since this has prob never happened before.

[WeZzZzRURR]

But let's say that his suffering in Hell is exactly what he refuses to do to prevent him from going to Hell in the first place. He either chooses to worship Biblegod and stay out of Hell getting all the other benefits of afterlife out of Hell, or if he refuses, he has to worship Biblegod forever with no breaks.

Haha I knew that was coming next after my post..... =)

[HAL]

HAL, I just wanted to take a moment to let you know that I officially agree with Nam and have had a similar position to his since my deconversion some many years ago.

Well you've read the thread so I can't add anything to what I've said. I'd just let the audience judge for themselves if a human has any idea what they are saying when they claim they can choose and endure eternal torture over any other option. I don't believe you can, because you have no idea of the misery.

[Kimberly]

Ok, I'm done reading the last two pages. But I have some questions as I don't fully understand the nature of the bible's hell. So is it just that you go "live" or "exist" in a lake of fire for all eternity? Or is there some mind control, and other torture methods present? Are all of your human coping mechanisms and attributes removed when you enter this place? Is there literally no time limit?[1]

You can't literally burn forever, that's silly. So, how exactly does this lake of fire work, does it just "boil" at a level that prevents nerve damage? Do you just eventually turn to ashes? I really, honestly, don't understand the biblical concept of hell. So if someone could explain this stuff to me first I can then attempt to answer the OP.

It's kinda like the matrix, I already have all the information I need to prevent me from ever being able to worship the biblical god. There's literally no going back. I can't fake worship because he would know. So aside from pride, toughness, and masochism what option do I really have?

Edit to add: All that being said, it seems perfectly logical to me to choose torment, at least that way it gives me the perception of choice. Because from my understanding of the bible I have no choice, I'm destined for hell any ways, so why not allow myself this one last pretend +1 on god?

1.	I think I've read several Christians with biblical sources that claim it's not really all eternity.

[WeZzZzRURR]

Ok, I'm done reading the last two pages. But I have some questions as I don't fully understand the nature of the bible's hell. So is it just that you go "live" or "exist" in a lake of fire for all eternity? Or is there some mind control, and other torture methods present? Are all of your human coping mechanisms and attributes removed when you enter this place? Is there literally no time limit?[1]

You can't literally burn forever, that's silly. So, how exactly does this lake of fire work, does it just "boil" at a level that prevents nerve damage? Do you just eventually turn to ashes? I really, honestly, don't understand the biblical concept of hell. So if someone could explain this stuff to me first I can then attempt to answer the OP.

It's kinda like the matrix, I already have all the information I need to prevent me from ever being able to worship the biblical god. There's literally no going back. I can't fake worship because he would know. So aside from pride, toughness, and masochism what option do I really have?

Edit to add: All that being said, it seems perfectly logical to me to choose torment, at least that way it gives me the perception of choice. Because from my understanding of the bible I have no choice, I'm destined for hell any ways, so why not allow myself this one last pretend +1 on god?

1.	I think I've read several Christians with biblical sources that claim it's not really all eternity.

Like I posted earlier, my interpretation of hell is suffering beyond description, the worse suffering that each individual could go through... Like someone previously stated, you could think of it kind of like magic, whereby you continue to feel the same amount of suffering repeatedly for an eternity, not getting used to the pain, not withering away, just a continuation of indescribable suffering. 

And I would have to say that, if someone had felt this suffering prior to making their decision, they would have no choice but to try and believe in a bible god even if they don't agree with the morals of that said bible god..... But being that you could not have any idea what kind of suffering would ensue you in hell, you would naturally do what is right to you, deny the thought worshiping something that you completely disagree with, but later regret it in your suffering.

[Seppuku]

You can't literally burn forever, that's silly. So, how exactly does this lake of fire work, does it just "boil" at a level that prevents nerve damage? Do you just eventually turn to ashes?

What you have to bear in mind now is that if God exists and there's an afterlife. It's not our mortal body that burns but our immortal soul and it would seem, based on what many Christians claim, that the immortal soul is capable of feeling pain. The claim is that we will suffer for all eternity, now there are different interpretations of hell and personally I love my interpretation best (where Satan makes Hell awesome because they stuck it to God like he did did) but that's not what people generally talk about when they talk about hell. It's this place where we're put to suffer for all eternity for all of our sins.

We are told that if we don't accept Christ we are to burn in hell for eternity. And this is what we're tackling. You're talking about an eternity of intense pain.
If we did not suffer and if we could cope it would take away the point.

But I suppose we do have to ask exactly what is hell? The above I'd argue is the general consensus. If that is the hell we are destined to go to, I'd like to say I'd be able to stick to my principles.

There's literally no going back. I can't fake worship because he would know.

This is why I talked about deluding yourself. Eventually you would be back on that path. I would hate it, I would not want it and it goes against all that I stand for. This is why I say I do not know what I'd choose. It's a question of betraying yourself as to no suffer immense pain & suffering or to keep your pride and suffer immensely. As far as I am concerned you cannot win either way, but I would argue the eternal torture is the worst of the two. At least with betraying yourself you're able to delude yourself into some kind of contentment.

However, this thread is actually kind of useful, because a character in my novel kind of goes through this problem. She's in hell, but because she's being tortured into belief in very much the same manner. She tries to lie about her beliefs just to make the pain stop, but they want to be convinced and they will not be happy until she's deluded herself into their way of thinking. She's strong willed and like many of us, would be much happier being who they are and not what somebody threatens them to be. I won't go into details as to not derail, but I thought it's just interesting.

The difference is an all-knowing God will know if you've deluded yourself, but if he wants to scare monger us into worship and threaten us with violence then I would say he's happy so long as you're bowing down to him and obeying his law and to not be thinking about defying him. But I do agree that it is impossible to truly go back to worship, at least with scare mongering/force pressuring you, because it goes against our own morality and the only way to forcible change your morality is to delude yourself.


[edit]I am actually feeling very tired at the minute. As I've not reviewed my post, I feel the need to say: apologies for any errors, lacks of observation or even incoherent thought. I shall review in the morning.

[Kimberly]

My response was written before your reply Sep and was meant to be placed after WeZ post...

I don't believe I can really answer the question until I have a firm understand or description of the biblical hell and a firm definition of the biblical meaning of worship.

Thanks for your attempt at it WeZzZzRURR... But what you provided is your interpretation of the bible. I don't really want an interpretation because I've read many of those, none of them make sense to me. You see there are too many contradictions for me to wrap by head around the concepts.

I can only assume, based on what knowledge that I have today, right now, in this moment, that I would choose torture. I may be wrong, but until the terms of hell and worship make sense to me all I can do is answer it to the best of my ability.

[eye over you]

    I think I would give in and worship. Principals go out the window when "eternity" comes into play. I can't stand a frickin' toothache for 5 minutes, much less what biblegod could come up with. More power to those stronger than me tho.

[WeZzZzRURR]

Thanks for your attempt at it WeZzZzRURR... But what you provided is your interpretation of the bible. I don't really want an interpretation because I've read many of those, none of them make sense to me. You see there are too many contradictions for me to wrap by head around the concepts.

I think, and I may be wrong on this, so correct me if I am wrong, that somewhere in the bible it is stated that the tortures of hell are unfathomable.... Meaning you would never know for sure what hell really is until you were there, meaning you would probably choose eternal torture...

[Azdgari]

"Unfathomable" could mean that it's really nice there.  For all we know it could be a realm of bliss.  That would be an unfathomable torture, in that it is an unfathomable method of torturing someone.

To claim that it is unpleasant is to fathom it in some way.

[Seppuku]

Before my inevitable descent into sleep I've pulled a few quotes out to get started, as we're talking about biblical hell. I've not bothered with context or checking them as the bed is looking pretty attractive (yes, that makes me a bedophile), but I'm just throwing them out there to add to the discussion:

Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”
Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone”
Revelation 14:11 “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night”
Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death, the lake of fire”
Revelation 20:15 “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire”
Matthew 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be
subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is
answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in
danger of the fire of hell.
Matthew 5:29-30 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It
is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to
be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away.
It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body
to go into hell.
Matthew 13:38-42 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the
kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to
eternal life."
Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you
to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire
never goes out.
Luke 12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the
killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you,
fear him.
Luke 16:23-24 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far
away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in
agony in this fire.'

Courtesy of a few loving Biblical sites.

[Quesi]

Like I posted earlier, my interpretation of hell is suffering beyond description, the worse suffering that each individual could go through... Like someone previously stated, you could think of it kind of like magic, whereby you continue to feel the same amount of suffering repeatedly for an eternity, not getting used to the pain, not withering away, just a continuation of indescribable suffering. 

And I would have to say that, if someone had felt this suffering prior to making their decision, they would have no choice but to try and believe in a bible god even if they don't agree with the morals of that said bible god..... But being that you could not have any idea what kind of suffering would ensue you in hell, you would naturally do what is right to you, deny the thought worshiping something that you completely disagree with, but later regret it in your suffering.

What are your sources?  Where did you get this information?  Can it be verified?  Or does this story exist only in the imaginations of living, breathing people who have never experienced death?

[HAL]

Well, this is of course a hypothetical so we go on the initial conditions. Nam said this -

If Biblegod was shown 100% to exist, i'd be happy to burn foever (sic) in Hell.

^^^ That's the hypothetical condition. That you will burn in Hell if you knew Biblegod was real (how you know this is irrelevant to this scenario) and chose to not worship it

All that being said, it seems perfectly logical to me to choose torment, at least that way it gives me the perception of choice. Because from my understanding of the bible I have no choice, I'm destined for hell any ways, so why not allow myself this one last pretend +1 on god?

I simply do not think you can possibly say you would choose torment, because you haven't any idea of the real pain you are facing. That's been my point all along. It's easy to type out brazen statements of strength in the face of this Biblegod in the comfort of your home, but if it were reality, I do not believe you would really choose torment for eternity. The reason is that I could torture you very efficiently and easily with items in my garage and you would not be able to stand it for any amount of time. Consider what you would be able to stand from an Omnimax deity. You couldn't take it. Anyone stating otherwise is, IMHO, not being rational about it.

    I think I would give in and worship. Principals go out the window when "eternity" comes into play. I can't stand a frickin' toothache for 5 minutes, much less what biblegod could come up with. More power to those stronger than me tho.

Exactly - that's being honest. No mere human would choose real eternal torture except to say so on internet forums.