If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?

[HAL]

Answer:  I would take the fucking bastards place and ask not to be worshipped...  i.e. do what he says just long enough to overthrow the asshole that is torturing my people.

OK I'll take that as a "yes", with a valient plan to overthrow IT if possible. Bold plan, but it amounts to my stance also - live to fight another day.

[jeremy0]

HAL:

Let me put it this way:  No chance in heaven or hell I would worship this evil, wicked, self-righteous, hateful, irrational, and powerless upstart of a phony god.  PERIOD.  I would definitely find a way to bring justice to all those that were tortured.  Fuck that god.  I'll put his head on a log post.

And to the rest of the posters that said they would worship if that were the case - how easily you retracted on your original statements and postures - just with the threat of torture.  I know torture to a degree.  None of you would be able to enjoy a single day seeing something like that going on.  Pathetic.  You'd all be living in heaven in absolute terror of being sent a-down-below..

Have you learned nothing from your studies of religion?

First, if a God exists, he/she would have to prove to me that they can:
1.  Build a just, equal, good culture/system
2.  Give it to everyone
3.  Build a perfect society that is easily maintainable
4.  Does not take part or take a stance in anything remotely negative or harmful to the human or animal or plant mind, body, or emotion.

[smiller]

There's only one thing that could torture me, cause me real pain but I've gone through it enough times in my life that my response is: I'm still here.

Not that I hadn't tried not to be in the past but I survived each attempt, unwillingly.

-Nam

Well Nam, I think when it comes to god and hell (hypothetically speaking) I don't think it's a matter of being here or being survived.

For example, I want you to light up a cig. and dab it under your chin for 2 minutes, or maybe 10 seconds (Don't try this at home kids.)  Maybe you can endure this because, only because you know that the pain will end eventually.  But in hell, hell no it ain't gonna end.

What you want to think or believe being aside, IMHO your claim is unbelievable and unachievable to any human being.

[The Wannabe]

If bible God was empirically shown to exist, i would do everything i could in my lifetime to resist him and his followers, and then have a deathbed conversion 

[Anfauglir]

What I'm most interested here is why you're pushing this so hard, and alienating and annoying so many people with the condescending statements that you know us better than we know ourselves. 

I do know you better than you know yourselves (apparently) when it comes to this scenario,ational person is going to choose that option.....An insane person might, but none of you are insane and will not do it. I can say this with 100% certainty (for rational people) because your excuse that you have never experienced the level of pain, so you could pick it, is simply ridiculous and I think you know it.

Just want to clarify.  You are calling me a liar or insane, is that correct?

[Anfauglir]

And to the rest of the posters that said they would worship if that were the case - how easily you retracted on your original statements and postures - just with the threat of torture.  I know torture to a degree.  None of you would be able to enjoy a single day seeing something like that going on.  Pathetic.  You'd all be living in heaven in absolute terror of being sent a-down-below..

Quite.  For me, it means any posturing and complaining about how bad the Biblegod is, is - as Hal insists - just tough-guy internet posturing.  Like dissing the schoolyard bully when he's well out of earshot, when they know they will fawn over him when he appears.

[HAL]

Just want to clarify.  You are calling me a liar or insane, is that correct?

It's not an either/or like you seem to think. You just don't know yourself like you think you do when it comes to this scenario. I realize that aggravates you when I say it but I can't help that.

It's not so unusual for you to not know yourself in one regard or another - many people don't really know themselves when it comes to many situations, especially something serious like this scenario. It takes another person to call them out or show them how they are not taking into account important points. Why do you think psychologists exist? I don't think you need one, but I do think you are being unrealistically arrogant and belligerent in keeping an unrealistic stance.

So that's what I'm doing - pointing out that you don't know yourself like you think you do - neither does Nam - if it came to the reality of this scenario. Oh you know yourself when it comes to choosing the model of car you want to buy, what types of beer you prefer, and whether to believe in a god or not. You already admitted that if the torture of Hell was to have you drill holes in your wife's brain for eternity you would crumble. You're halfway there. I pointed out that "burning in Hell" is only a metaphor for the eternal torture of Hell whatever that might be, so effectively, you really said you would do what some of the rest of would do anyway because you cannot choose what the torture is.

You would no more choose actual eternal torture if you could get out of it than any other human being would in the face of the reality of the scenario. You easily type out the words to say you could in the Internets - but that comes nowhere close to placing you in the reality of the choice. Several of us can understand what we would really do, some of us can't. I guess it's the internet tough guy syndrome for lack of a better term.

Quite.  For me, it means any posturing and complaining about how bad the Biblegod is, is - as Hal insists - just tough-guy internet posturing.  Like dissing the schoolyard bully when he's well out of earshot, when they know they will fawn over him when he appears.

Not at all. There is no evidence that this bully (Biblegod) exists, so the analogy fails. We are dealing with a hypothetical scenario in this thread. In reality NOW, we know of no gods that exist. The analogy fails in other regards too, because a human bully can be defeated with many methods such as cowtowing to it just long enough to defeat it later using other methods. That doesn't apply to Omnimax deities.

If bible God was empirically shown to exist, i would do everything i could in my lifetime to resist him and his followers, and then have a deathbed conversion 

Exactly. Thanks for the honesty.

[HAL]

I would definitely find a way to bring justice to all those that were tortured.

Bold statement except there's one tiny problem. You don't have the power to do that. So you worship IT or get eternal torture. You will not choose eternal torture and you know deep down you won't.

[Mostly Harmless]

One of the ways in which my faith has grown is through questions such as this.  Like many atheists, I cannot accept that a good God would burn somebody forever.  If I am to trust my conscience as something God gave me to discern right and wrong, then this is a place in which I must trust it. 

As I thought about this question, I went back to my Bible.  The lake of fire is in the Revelation.  I don't think it is meant to be taken literally, just as the dragons, harlots and beasts and cubicle cities are not meant to be understood literally.

When Jesus spoke of hell, he usually used the word "Gehenna", which was the city dump.  In it, there was a perpetual smoldering.  What is a good God to do with evil, broken humans?  Trash heap.  Annilhilation.  When they are dead, they are dead.  Similar to what atheists thinks happens to everyone.

Then there is the idea of "forever".  It occurred to me that, even in our universe, it would be possible for God to simultaneously annihilate something and also have it burn forever.  Time does not "march on".  It can be curved - infinitely in some places. 

Thus, a person thrown into a black hole would experience instant annihilation, but an observer on the outside might see that person infinitely compressed forever and ever. 

By the way, I'm not suggesting  hell is a black hole.  I'm merely saying we develop some weird ideas when we superimpose an incorrect view of the universe on our theology.  If the Christian god exists, He created the universe.  Therefore I need to take scientific knowledge very seriously when I think of Him (and anything else).

In any even, the idea of eternal torment involves a misunderstanding of time, and it could also involve a misunderstanding of Jesus' teachings. 

So... thankfully, I don't think anyone will have to make the choice -- worship or burn forever.

[learnin]

One of the ways in which my faith has grown is through questions such as this.  Like many atheists, I cannot accept that a good God would burn somebody forever.  If I am to trust my conscience as something God gave me to discern right and wrong, then this is a place in which I must trust it. 

As I thought about this question, I went back to my Bible.  The lake of fire is in the Revelation.  I don't think it is meant to be taken literally, just as the dragons, harlots and beasts and cubicle cities are not meant to be understood literally.

When Jesus spoke of hell, he usually used the word "Gehenna", which was the city dump.  In it, there was a perpetual smoldering.  What is a good God to do with evil, broken humans?  Trash heap.  Annilhilation.  When they are dead, they are dead.  Similar to what atheists thinks happens to everyone.

Then there is the idea of "forever".  It occurred to me that, even in our universe, it would be possible for God to simultaneously annihilate something and also have it burn forever.  Time does not "march on".  It can be curved - infinitely in some places. 

Thus, a person thrown into a black hole would experience instant annihilation, but an observer on the outside might see that person infinitely compressed forever and ever. 

By the way, I'm not suggesting  hell is a black hole.  I'm merely saying we develop some weird ideas when we superimpose an incorrect view of the universe on our theology.  If the Christian god exists, He created the universe.  Therefore I need to take scientific knowledge very seriously when I think of Him (and anything else).

In any even, the idea of eternal torment involves a misunderstanding of time, and it could also involve a misunderstanding of Jesus' teachings. 

So... thankfully, I don't think anyone will have to make the choice -- worship or burn forever.

If Jesus did not mean hell to be a literal lake of fire where the damned are burning forever, his followers certainly did.  For centuries, believers  preached a literal burning of the damned.  It is only, recently, that believers have begun to postulate a different type of hell;   "absence of God", etc.   So, how would a loving God allow his followers to portray him as an unloving monster when this God could have easily corrected them?

[One Above All]

HAL, were you actually looking for honest answers to your question, or was this just a thread to shoot down anyone who disagreed with your preconception?

And yes, I am well aware that I said I wasn't going to participate any further. My curiosity got the best of me.

[Kimberly]

What you want to think or believe being aside, IMHO your claim is unbelievable and unachievable to any human being.

Don't you cease being human upon entering hell? You can't really know what your "soul" can handle in hell. It could be a cakewalk for all we know.

[HAL]

I have a few responses consolidated in this post.

HAL, were you actually looking for honest answers to your question, or was this just a thread to shoot down anyone who disagreed with your preconception?

Yea I'm looking for honest answers, but you don't seem to actually have an honest answer. I shoot down dishonesty, not honesty. Pumping yourself up on the internet like some kind of i-Superman when your frail humanity will buckle in the scenario is sheer dishonesty. You should take to heart some of the eloquent posts that are honest. You will be no hero son.

And yes, I am well aware that I said I wasn't going to participate any further. My curiosity got the best of me.

LOL - you can't resist the temptation to respond on a forum thread when you said you were done, but yet you want us to believe you can resist eternal torture? Give me a break! I think you should quit again while you have a chance.

And to the rest of the posters that said they would worship if that were the case - how easily you retracted on your original statements and postures - just with the threat of torture.  I know torture to a degree.  None of you would be able to enjoy a single day seeing something like that going on.  Pathetic.  You'd all be living in heaven in absolute terror of being sent a-down-below.

Jeremy - they are being honest. You should applaud them for understanding their humanity. You are the one who is being dishonest. Quite dishonest.

You "know torture to a degree"? That's a laughable remark if you expect me to now agree that a mere human such as yourself will choose eternal torture because they "know torture to a degree". If it was legal (it's not) and if I was a nasty enough person to do it (I'm not), I could easily make you worship me. I have enough tools in my garage to torture you to the breaking point in very little time. In just a few moments you will do anything I tell you to do, because the things I could do to break you are, well, let's just leave it to your imagination - children might be reading this. But to the point - I won't even have to, because you will realize your frailty and will start squealing like a stuck pig when I get within a few inches of the parts of your body I was aiming for with my torture device. You'll break before I do a thing like a cheap wine glass.

Even if you were brazen/foolish enough to still take me on because you would risk death to end it isn't going to cut it, because in the reality of the scenario we're talking about, death isn't an optional way out. So please - stop being an internet tough guy and admit the obvious. The longer you go on about resisting Biblegod because you think you are tough enough, the sillier you look.

Jeremy (or Nam or OAA) - have you ever watched the movie Deliverance. If you have you know what happened to the guys from the city when the mountain men got hold of them - they submitted to the demands of the mountain men very easily and quickly. Sure they got out of the situation but it wasn't their doing - they weren't willing to risk torture to resist. It was a pretty ugly and embarrassing scene, it's too bad Jeremy the Magnificent or OAA the i-Superman who can stand up to Biblegod wasn't one of the two who got caught right?

No, I picture you doing just what those city guys did in that situation or the scenario we're talking about here when you don't have a computer to hide behind. You'd be crying like a fucking stepchild asking to do whatever to get out of tortue. Next time I watch it I'll be putting Jeremy in place of the one squealing like a pig in his underwear, and OAA as the other pinned to the tree with a belt around his neck, because that's what you would do.

Protip: Jeremy, Nam, OAA - contact U.S. Special Forces - they could use the training you could provide. If you can stand up to gods they could certainly use you in some fashion I would think.

I suspect the reason some members are taking this internet tough guy stand is that they feel like they would be embarrassed if any Christians read that they would actually worship Biblegod after all the arguing against it on the forum. If they just keep typing out the tough guy stand all will be well with their reputations. I understand. But that doesn't mean you would actually stand up to the real thing if proven true. Common knowledge of human frailty shatters that idea. I also think that quite a few members agree with some of us that they would worship Biblegod to avoid eternal torture, but just don't want to admit it in front of members. I also understand that. You know who you are.

[Kimberly]

If bible God was empirically shown to exist, i would do everything i could in my lifetime to resist him and his followers, and then have a deathbed conversion 

Exactly. Thanks for the honesty.

I'm pretty sure Lillia[1] shared this position of her "atheist" grandfather and "we[2]" told her he must have never been a true atheist.

1.	I think she's called GamerGirl here.
2.	This was at ATT

[Kimberly]

HAL, even in your hypothetical you have no way of knowing what decision someone may take. You can think their opinion is wrong, stupid, they'd regret it, or whatever else you want to think about their decision. But unless you became psychic overnight you have no idea what another person will choose. You can guess, you can speculate, you can assume, you can carefully calculate the probability. But you can't know.

I'm sure you can think of perfectly good examples of what decisions people will make IRL. But we are human, we make mistakes, we are often wrong, and we make choices we later regret. I don't see why we can expect anything less from our species in the afterlife. It's highly probable that some of us would make a different decision. If there is a choice, someone will eventually make the "wrong" choice.

[HAL]

HAL, even in your hypothetical you have no way of knowing what decision someone may take.

I said if they are sane they will not choose eternal torture. No sane person would actually do it. I know this - yes -because their humanity and knowledge of their frailty (which the i-Supermen won't admit to here) will not allow it. If they are not sane, even for a short amount of time, then I have no idea what they will do, I already covered that. I can't predict what insane people will do.

[One Above All]

Yea I'm looking for honest answers, but you don't seem to actually have an honest answer. I shoot down dishonesty, not honesty. Pumping yourself up on the internet like some kind of i-Superman when your frail humanity will buckle in the scenario is sheer dishonesty. You should take to heart some of the eloquent posts that are honest. You will be no hero son.

Tell me, HAL, how do you know that if, per your own argument, you can't imagine what it's like because nobody has been through anything close to it?

LOL - you can't resist the temptation to respond on a forum thread when you said you were done, but yet you want us to believe you can resist eternal torture? Give me a break! I think you should quit again while you have a chance.

Not "can't". "Won't". Enormous difference.
Also, there are things far more important to me than curiosity. You should know that, since you appear to know everything about everyone who disagrees with you. Or at least just enough to know how they'd react in a situation that no human being has ever been in.

[HAL]

Oh well. I'm done here. I don't need you to believe me. Keep on thinking that you know me better than I know myself if it makes you feel better.

[One Above All]

HAL, if you can't answer my questions without conceding, just say so. I'll get out of your hair, so to speak.

[HAL]

HAL, if you can't answer my questions without conceding, just say so. I'll get out of your hair, so to speak.

You need to learn to mean what you say son. Because of what you posted below - I certainly can't believe anything you tell me now. So yea, please get out of my hair (thread).

Oh well. I'm done here.

[One Above All]

Hey, I'm just curious if you're as intellectually honest when it comes to proving you wrong than you are when it comes to proving you right. Clearly the answer is "No". I'll take your dodges as a concession.

[12 Monkeys]

Hal what makes this God guy worthy of my praise? Is he a inter-breed spawn of other gods that may be cousins or worse brother and sister?  Why is this God of the WHOLE universe such a ignorant immature baby?

Knowing what we now about this god from what is written about him,he deserves no praise,but because he demands it I can be eternally punished.....sounds ludicrous.......If I fake praise will I get into heaven? or do I truly have to worship a god that is as close to an immature school bully as one could truly be?

If I could fake praise and avoid hell of course I would,to truly worship something far worse than Satans  is laughable....is there one flock out there that would truly praise this being.....who makes Hitler and every other tyrant who mass murdered people look like pussys

[smiller]

If bible God was empirically shown to exist, i would do everything i could in my lifetime to resist him and his followers, and then have a deathbed conversion 

Sounds like love and hate relationship

http://uuawayoflife.blogspot.com/2009/03/morning-meditation-love-and-hate-two.html

Love and hate- two sides of the same coin.

[learnin]

author=HAL link=topic=22925.msg512490#msg512490 date=1339260098]

I suspect the reason some members are taking this internet tough guy stand is that they feel like they would be embarrassed if any Christians read that they would actually worship Biblegod after all the arguing against it on the forum. If they just keep typing out the tough guy stand all will be well with their reputations. I understand. But that doesn't mean you would actually stand up to the real thing if proven true. Common knowledge of human frailty shatters that idea. I also think that quite a few members agree with some of us that they would worship Biblegod to avoid eternal torture, but just don't want to admit it in front of members. I also understand that. You know who you are.

Here's one problem I think we're encountering in this discussion.  We're talking about "worshipping" and I think we are disagreeing about what is meant.

The posters who keep maintaining that they would not "worship" the torturing biblegod consider "worship" to mean love biblegod.   In this sense, they would be correct in that no one could love a torturer.   In fact, even though you might bow down and kiss ass, you would hate the torturer more and more.

I believe you, HAL, have used the term "worship" to mean bowing down, kissing ass, and serving the eternal torturer.  This is the way I have taken the term.
Because I take the term in this sense, I know I would end up kissing ass to a torturer who could fry me on a griddle for five minutes let alone eternally.
And every last conscious human being would do this.  There are no exceptions, no tough guys who could stand such torture without end.  Earthly torture has an end and, if the pain and trauma becomes too much, the brain has a mechanism by which it shuts down consciousness.  So, in a sense, tough guys can take a good deal of torture, on this earth, because of going unconscious within moments or because they know it will end at some point.

But, if a human being is faced with the prospect of having their flesh fryed for a conscious eternity, that human being will kiss ass without exception.  Any human, who believes they would not, is lying or doesn't really know themselves.

So, if I'm right, Hal is not talking about loving this torturer, Hal is talking about kissing ass.  Is this right, Hal?

[jeremy0]

If the biblegod can send anyone to this hell that he chooses, would we really have a choice?  And going by the affects of prayer, does this biblegod really have the power over me to 'send' me to a hell where 'torture' would be carried out by his 'satan enemy'?

By my reasoning, the biblegod is insane.  If he had all the power to do the above, then yes, I would kiss his ass just so the fucker won't torture me.  But like I said, his days would be numbered if that were plausible...

Because yes, you are right, a certain amount of torture where you do not become unconcious or die will break me.  But I'd hate that bastard god with all my might for doing it to even one person.  That's a satan god, not a bible god..

[HAL]

Hal what makes this God guy worthy of my praise?

Nothing.

The only reason to worship it is to get out of eternal torture, which any sane person will do. Insane people or temporary insanity - I cannot account for what they will do.

Is he a inter-breed spawn of other gods that may be cousins or worse brother and sister?  Why is this God of the WHOLE universe such a ignorant immature baby?

I don't know. Interesting questions but not relevant to the issues at hand. He is what he is and he's gonna torture your ass forever unless you worship it.

Knowing what we now about this god from what is written about him,he deserves no praise,but because he demands it I can be eternally punished.....sounds ludicrous.......

Yet that is the hypothetical we are dealing with.

If I fake praise will I get into heaven? or do I truly have to worship a god that is as close to an immature school bully as one could truly be?

You have to worship it to avoid eternal torture. If the real scenario was to exist, where it was proven that Biblegod exists prior to your death, you will worship it (unless you are insane) to avoid eternal torture. All sane people will. Even the i-net Supermen we have as members.

If I could fake praise and avoid hell of course I would, ...

Well thank you 12 Monkeys, another honest answer to the OP. I commend you for understanding your own humanity and being willing to openly say so. You are apparantly among the few who do, or at least are willing to be openly honest about it on the forum.

Oh by the way I have some PMs sent to me which are agreeing with my points. They shall remain anonymous of course.

Let me be clear because I think some people are still confused to a certain extent. I do not believe that Biblegod is real, I don't know how it could be proven to be real, and I don't plan on "converting" on my death bed to "play it safe".

But, if somehow it were proven to be real BEFORE I died, and hence the realization that Hell is real and you get sent there if you do not worship this deity, at that point, yes, I will worship it. Any sane person will try to get out of eternal torture, if you say otherwise you disregard your own humanity that will be an overbearing force should this scenario become real.

If it's real, and I do not convert before I die, then I'm as fucked as everyone else that didn't worship it (well, unless it gives one last chance when you stand before it).

[HAL]

The posters who keep maintaining that they would not "worship" the torturing biblegod consider "worship" to mean love biblegod.   In this sense, they would be correct in that no one could love a torturer.   In fact, even though you might bow down and kiss ass, you would hate the torturer more and more.

I believe you, HAL, have used the term "worship" to mean bowing down, kissing ass, and serving the eternal torturer.  This is the way I have taken the term.
Because I take the term in this sense, I know I would end up kissing ass to a torturer who could fry me on a griddle for five minutes let alone eternally.
And every last conscious human being would do this.  There are no exceptions, no tough guys who could stand such torture without end.  Earthly torture has an end and, if the pain and trauma becomes too much, the brain has a mechanism by which it shuts down consciousness.  So, in a sense, tough guys can take a good deal of torture, on this earth, because of going unconscious within moments or because they know it will end at some point.

But, if a human being is faced with the prospect of having their flesh fryed for a conscious eternity, that human being will kiss ass without exception.  Any human, who believes they would not, is lying or doesn't really know themselves. So, if I'm right, Hal is not talking about loving this torturer, Hal is talking about kissing ass.  Is this right, Hal?

Yes quite right. All of it. Thanks for the post.

If the biblegod can send anyone to this hell that he chooses, would we really have a choice?  And going by the affects of prayer, does this biblegod really have the power over me to 'send' me to a hell where 'torture' would be carried out by his 'satan enemy'?

That's what the xians tell me, and for this scenario yes it can do it.

By my reasoning, the biblegod is insane.  If he had all the power to do the above, then yes, I would kiss his ass just so the fucker won't torture me.  But like I said, his days would be numbered if that were plausible...

Thanks for the honest answer.

Because yes, you are right, a certain amount of torture where you do not become unconcious or die will break me.  But I'd hate that bastard god with all my might for doing it to even one person.  That's a satan god, not a bible god..

Again, quite correct. It's an asshole but what can you do about it? Nothing.

[12 Monkeys]

so faking it is ok or not......? every sane person would fake it....we do it for our in-laws,our old friends who now we despise and other related family members like the drunken uncle  or the druggie step-child....if we can fake it im in....if i worship out of fear because he knows my every thought it could be done as well.....like that kid in the twilight zone who punished his family members if they thought bad thoughts about him.....but where is this loving God theists are always telling us about?

 Would we get Stockholm syndrome....be like Patty Hearst? after a while we are praising this God but are unsure why.

[HAL]

so faking it is ok or not......? every sane person would fake it....we do it for our in-laws,our old friends who now we despise and other related family members like the drunken uncle  or the druggie step-child....if we can fake it im in....if i worship out of fear because he knows my every thought it could be done as well.....like that kid in the twilight zone who punished his family members if they thought bad thoughts about him.....

Worshiping is physical. Love is mental. Worship consists of the actions required to satisfy the object of the worship. If Biblegod wants dead lizards placed at the bottom of an altar made so and so, and it wants you to drip the blood of a lamb on your big toe every seven days, and burn certain things for it to sniff, then you either do those things or your don't. If you do them, whether you like doing them or not, you are worshiping it not faking it. If you don't, you aren't worshiping it properly.

but where is this loving God theists are always telling us about?

I don't know. But as in real life - you gotta do something to show love. Take your wife or GF - if you say you love her and never do anything to show it, then would they believe you love them? Same thing for Biblegod. You gotta play the game. Show the love baby, show the love! (and stay out of Hell). You show it love by worshiping it and it shows you love by not torturing you. I know - a demented asshole for sure but he's got the Powa.

Would we get Stockholm syndrome....be like Patty Hearst? after a while we are praising this God but are unsure why.

Good question. Perhaps that is what will happen and Biblegod knows it. Maybe that's how you get converted. In any case I don't give a damn what happens as long as I get out of Hell. I'm no internet Superman and I'm not going to sit here and tell fibs about what grand actions I'd do when I know damn well I'd buckle like a wet piece of cardboard.