Someone...

[WeZzZzRURR]

Now, I am going to take everything that I have learned her and research for myself... =)

[jynnan tonnix]

“It is a remarkable coincidence that almost everyone has the same religion as their parents and it always just so happens they’re the right religion.  (Richard Dawkins)”

Well my parents must account for part of the rare few who don’t hold their parents religions, as both were raised catholics, which they denounced far before they met each other, and now my dad is a Christian and my mom believes in a God, but it’s a long story……. (they’re divorced by the way). Some of my closest friends were raised jehovas witnesses, and almost instantly changed to Christianity.

I'm still reading through your whole list of responses, but this one jumped out at me. The point is that though your parents or your friends may have gone with a different "religion", it was one in which the basic framework was the same. A Catholic or a Jehovah's witness would still consider themselves Christian, even though some branches of "Christianity" would say otherwise. They all believe in Jesus, though, and the concept of his sacrifice. The religion they grew up with, which was impressed on their young minds, involved this basic scenario, thus it would be fairly unlikely that they would embrace something like Islam or Judaism (which at least share some background), and more unlikely still that their minds would find something like Hinduism compelling, with a whole unfamiliar pantheon of gods. And more unlikely still that they would make the leap to worshiping the Greek, Roman or Norse pantheon, since those religions are fully considered as mere mythology in these days.

[Grimm]

Now, I am going to take everything that I have learned her and research for myself... =)

Good!   

Wezur - seriously.  If you get nothing else out of this forum, an examined faith is infinitely preferable to an unexamined one.  Allow me the hubris of offering you a couple of points of advice, however:

- When you set out to examine your faith, be very careful about assumptions.  In logical argument, assumptions are things people agree to before the argument begins: e.g., "I will assume that all things are equal" or "we assume that this premise exists in a vacuum" or any number of other core conceits necessary for the argument to progress.  Some of these assumptions become automatic - when physicists talk about Newtonian physics, for instance, they will always assume the existence of a reference frame.  Given that newtonian physics only works within a reference frame, this makes sense, right?

When people talk about faith, they often begin with the core assumptions of their upbringing, things like "Some higher power must exist."  When you question the validity of faith, however, you have to begin by identifying and 'unpacking' these core assumptions.  WHY must some higher power exist?  Could the world exist without one?  Is the phrase "I don't know" bad?    .....  well, you get the idea.

The point is that, in order for faith to follow logically, you have to have a basis for the logical construct - your usual assumptions must be absolutely correct.

- Be honest.   Make a commitment to follow where the truth leads, and, where you have trouble?  Use a stand-in. 

There are thousands of denominations and thousands of faiths  - if something doesn't make sense to you in someone else's belief system, you can use that incongruity to examine your own.  John Loftis came up with the idea; it's called the "Outsider Test for Faith", or the OTF.  Use it.  It's very, very powerful.


I wish you luck.  It's a journey that isn't easy, but is ultimately extremely rewarding.

[screwtape]

Hi Wez

I appreciate the fact that you answered everyone's questions.  It must have been a lot of work.  It would make it easier to keep track of things, and less effort for you, I think, if you used the quoting feature in the forum.  See the link in my sig below. 

[WeZzZzRURR]

I'm still reading through your whole list of responses, but this one jumped out at me. The point is that though your parents or your friends may have gone with a different "religion", it was one in which the basic framework was the same. A Catholic or a Jehovah's witness would still consider themselves Christian, even though some branches of "Christianity" would say otherwise. They all believe in Jesus, though, and the concept of his sacrifice. The religion they grew up with, which was impressed on their young minds, involved this basic scenario, thus it would be fairly unlikely that they would embrace something like Islam or Judaism (which at least share some background), and more unlikely still that their minds would find something like Hinduism compelling, with a whole unfamiliar pantheon of gods. And more unlikely still that they would make the leap to worshiping the Greek, Roman or Norse pantheon, since those religions are fully considered as mere mythology in these days.

Well I would have to agree with you there, of course it would be more likely that they switch to a belief that is more similar to there original one (provided that the belief they switch to doesn't consist of what ever parts of the old belief that drove them away in the first place), of course it would be more likely that they switch to religion in which they have easier access to, these are all obvious things.....  If they picked Islam or Judaism, would they decide that they disagree with that and go for something else? I don't know.....  But it is interesting to me, however, that they did not completely drive away from religion...  I would be lead to believe that their belief in a God would be the reason as to why they stuck with religion, but that they needed to find an understanding for that God...

[WeZzZzRURR]

Hi Wez

I appreciate the fact that you answered everyone's questions.  It must have been a lot of work.  It would make it easier to keep track of things, and less effort for you, I think, if you used the quoting feature in the forum.  See the link in my sig below. 

I know, I'm sorry, its just that those responses were on multiple pages in this thread, and I noticed that after you quote the first reply (i.e. hit the quote button on the top of someone's post), it takes you to a new page where you can write your message, but then only goes back a certain amount of posts, which was not nearly enough to get them all... I would have had to either respond to each reply separately, which would be very unproductive as I'm sure as I would respond to each one, probably about 3 responses would spring up to my own response.  I rather wanted to centralize my responses in one post, and I did that by copying all the responses (an arduous task I'll have you) to microsoft word, and then responded to each one separately, then made it better looking....

[WeZzZzRURR]

Good!   

Wezur - seriously.  If you get nothing else out of this forum, an examined faith is infinitely preferable to an unexamined one.  Allow me the hubris of offering you a couple of points of advice, however:

- When you set out to examine your faith, be very careful about assumptions.  In logical argument, assumptions are things people agree to before the argument begins: e.g., "I will assume that all things are equal" or "we assume that this premise exists in a vacuum" or any number of other core conceits necessary for the argument to progress.  Some of these assumptions become automatic - when physicists talk about Newtonian physics, for instance, they will always assume the existence of a reference frame.  Given that newtonian physics only works within a reference frame, this makes sense, right?

When people talk about faith, they often begin with the core assumptions of their upbringing, things like "Some higher power must exist."  When you question the validity of faith, however, you have to begin by identifying and 'unpacking' these core assumptions.  WHY must some higher power exist?  Could the world exist without one?  Is the phrase "I don't know" bad?    .....  well, you get the idea.

The point is that, in order for faith to follow logically, you have to have a basis for the logical construct - your usual assumptions must be absolutely correct.

- Be honest.   Make a commitment to follow where the truth leads, and, where you have trouble?  Use a stand-in. 

There are thousands of denominations and thousands of faiths  - if something doesn't make sense to you in someone else's belief system, you can use that incongruity to examine your own.  John Loftis came up with the idea; it's called the "Outsider Test for Faith", or the OTF.  Use it.  It's very, very powerful.


I wish you luck.  It's a journey that isn't easy, but is ultimately extremely rewarding.

Yeah its definitely a thing where I will critically examine my beliefs, after all, there are two reasons for me doing this:

-To find out for myself what my beliefs are, and if they differ to your own,

-To have a way to justify them to you, after all, I would be selfish if I came upon such knowledge and kept it to myself... =D

[Dynamic]

Maybe one day you'll join us ?

[bertatberts]

I could make a guess that human sin has brought all of these things into this world,

How did they manage that.   

Well, I guess possibly, He’s trying to say that He offered us a chance, if you look back to Adam and Eve, to live in a world without what we call “suffering”,

Are we reading the same bible, what chance was that.

but it was in our human nature to sin (again whole other topic), and as a result suffering was created.  I understand the ambiguity I have introduced in this statement, again,

Haven't you just.

Well my parents must account for part of the rare few who don’t hold their parents religions, as both were raised catholics, which they denounced far before they met each other, and now my dad is a Christian and my mom believes in a God, but it’s a long story……. (they’re divorced by the way). Some of my closest friends were raised jehovas witnesses, and almost instantly changed to Christianity.

Have Catholics, and Jehovah witnesses suddenly ceased to be christians.

Well tell me, should if God exists, should he do everything for us in this world, should he love our children for us, should he cut our hair for us, should he cook our food for us, should he raise our children for us?

I would for my children, I will never stop being there dad, til I die.  If you love someone you will do anything for them.

These are all things in which I think you would agree with me that if there were a God, we should be responsible for doing these things, then if it is possible that God has left these things up to us to work out, why isn’t it possible that there are other things that he left for us to work out?

Even though, I will let my children do their own thing I'm ever the watchful father to step in the moment I feel they need me, and also when they actual ask.  They will never want for anything. I would not be much of a father if I allowed them to put their hand in the flame so to speak would I.
And it hasn’t left us to  our own devices, according to the bible, it cast Adam and Eve out of Eden, and blamed the entirety of the human race, for something it caused, itself. It drowned the whole world and it sent its son to die for us, to create a loophole to circumvent a rule it itself had created, the mind boggles.

[Eddie Schultz]

Now, I am going to take everything that I have learned her and research for myself... =)

Hello,

Take the time to research what you see in the video as well. Let us know which god it is that you believe is the real god.

[Star Stuff]

In any event, how the superstitious guesses of primitive desert men still gets any level of regard or respect in the last 100 years is beyond me.

[WeZzZzRURR]

How did they manage that.   

Not entirely sure, there's theories on it I suppose (many that can't be proven), such as its the devil's work, our pollution on this planet causes them (just a theory I've heard), or maybe there is more to this world that we simply lack comprehension of that will be explained in the afterlife (again you hate this theory =D).

Are we reading the same bible, what chance was that.

Until man sinned, wasn't it stated in the bible that the world was a place where this supposed "suffering" did not exist?

Haven't you just.

Yes? =)

Have Catholics, and Jehovah witnesses suddenly ceased to be christians.

Well it depends in how you define the term christian, to me, catholics, jehovas witnesses, and christians are different religions, but to you, they are simply different branches of the christian religion.

I would for my children, I will never stop being there dad, til I die.  If you love someone you will do anything for them.

Well, that would imply that you assume our relationship with God is that of a parent figure. And talk is cheap my friend, are you telling me that you would do absolutely EVERYTHING for your children? I mean everything.  Another way that the relationship can be seen as is God is our coach, and through hard work and suffering we are rewarded with something great =D, and it sucks getting to that point and often times we hate our coach for it, but we are very thankful in the end when we get that reward... =P

Even though, I will let my children do their own thing I'm ever the watchful father to step in the moment I feel they need me, and also when they actual ask.  They will never want for anything. I would not be much of a father if I allowed them to put their hand in the flame so to speak would I.

And I understand that, this again assumes a parent-like relationship with God, and like I said I'm not entirely sure why some people suffer, I agree that it seems unfair for many people to go through the suffering that they do in this world, but again, in some eyes, suffering is every minute living in this world that could be a minute in Heaven, so one could make what seems kind of a cruel argument that those who die very young and suffer for what seems like no reason are indeed better off than us because they are allowed to inherit the gift of Heaven earlier than we are...

And it hasn’t left us to  our own devices, according to the bible, it cast Adam and Eve out of Eden, and blamed the entirety of the human race, for something it caused, itself. It drowned the whole world and it sent its son to die for us, to create a loophole to circumvent a rule it itself had created, the mind boggles.

Well, I am of the belief that in order for us to have free will, we have to have the ability to commit the term coined as "sinning", otherwise, it is not free will....

[12 Monkeys]

I assume you are young and your parents are still taking care of you.........and that you have never really suffered,am I right?

[Graybeard]

Until man sinned, wasn't it stated in the bible that the world was a place where this supposed "suffering" did not exist?

No.

[Star Stuff]

Well, I am of the belief that in order for us to have free will, we have to have the ability to commit the term coined as "sinning", otherwise, it is not free will....

The very idea of "sin" is a childish one which requires and presupposes a god in the sky who disapproves of a certain behaviour.

There is no such thing as "sin"; it is a religious term.  There is undesirable, counterproductive, even hurtful behaviour, but that's it.  Do we use the word "sin" in our law courts?  No.  If we did, it would seem very odd.  Instantly we would wonder why the person is using a religious term in court.

[WeZzZzRURR]

It was brought to my attention that I didn't really respond to this post by tinyal:

There are many, many issues in your posts that I'd like to address, but I'll concentrate on this one for now. The issue of the child in the photo is an example of what's long been called (by long, I mean many hundreds of years, perhaps many thousands) The Problem Of Evil.  In a nutshell, what this means is that 100's of millions of people the world over, in many different religions (certainly 1000's of different christian denominations) make the blanket statement that their god is all good, all knowing, and all powerful - for shorthand, this is called an omnimax god.

My first (this is very important) question I'd be very happy to have you answer - do you believe god is all good, all knowing, and all powerful?  Please keep your answer to this question in mind as I continue this post.

Are omnipotent and omnimax the same? Because it was pointed out to me that if God thinks something, it has to be done….  I slightly disagree with this statement, I believe that he doesn’t like that we suffer, but there’s a reason why we have to (just saying what I believe, obviously I can’t prove this to you).

To continue, from the perspective of millions of nontheists (or humanists, or atheists, or freethinkers, as well as other non religious people), non-good things happen all across the world every hour of every day (you might think of them as evil, or just bad,  things).  These are incidents like the child's picture referenced above (note:  that is a nobel prize winning picture, the author of which recently committed suicide, perhaps due to all the pain he witnessed and could not cope with.  It shows a young girl, who was trying to crawl her way to a UN/Relief agency food truck.  I believe she was about 8 years old at the time, and had spent her entire short life surviving on less than 1/4 bowl of rice a day, if even that.  Her and her mom were heading to the food truck, but her starving mother could not carry her anymore, and went ahead (only a few hundred yards) with the intention of bringing food back.  The girl in this picture died before her mom could get back.  Even the photographer, after snapping this picture, broke with all his training not to interfere (and knowing, as we all do, that we can't fix everyone), and tried to get food to this starving girl.  She died anyway, moments after the picture was taken).

That is a sad thing, again, in this sense, I would believe that if everyone in this world who “had the ability” to help people in these situations did so, these situations would not exist, at least these ones.

(I keep several copies of this picture in my wallet, to remind me of what the christian god doesn't do, fyi)

To remind you, or to use as part of your case when speaking to a christian in person?... =P

To continue - it doesn't matter if any poster here isn't over there now feeding these children with whatever dollars they could bring, before they themselves became broke.  It doesn't matter (for this argument called 'The Problem of Evil') because any - any - omnimax god who (due to being all powerful, as the christians such as yourself believe) doesn't make sure this child got fed is either Evil, or not all powerful.  It doesn't matter because an all knowing god would know that not everyone can help this girl, and so why didn't He (capitalized on purpose) help her?  Would this be the action of an all loving, parent-like god, to allow this girl (as well as 10's of thousands like her, every fracking month, who die never knowing a full stomach).

As I stated above, I believe that there are more than enough people in this world who have the ability to help that could make things such as these not have to happen, but as I stated somewhere else, many of you view this world as a terrible place because of all the suffering that is apparent in it, then, in a sense, living in this world is suffering in itself, and as such, to a theist, viewing every minute on this planet as suffering because that minute could be a minute in Heaven, couldn’t it be argued that those who die young have it better off because they inherit the gift of Heaven earlier than the rest of us? =)

That picture, I hope, gets stuck in your mind (like it has mine for years), and eventually sinks in.  Many bad things happen in the world that humans could never fix, and aren't the least bit to blame for - earthquakes, floods, attack by animals, locusts eating their crops so many starve, etc) - the answer you tried to use doesn't work - it doesn't explain why this god of yours, so full of allgoodness, so full of power, so full of knowing all from the beginning of time to the end - why He allows this to occur?

I’m sure as you are making the statement about animal attacks, you’re completely innocent in the statement as you have never reaped the benefits of a butchered animal for food (unless you have been a vegetarian since you were born)….  And fix is an interesting term to use…  We cannot fix earthquakes, yet we can carefully choose where we live and set up our “city” to where we can avoid the negative outcomes of earthquakes…..  The same goes with floods….  I touched on animals already… Locusts have got to eat too, have you ever thought of all the supplies we use that results in the death of other living creatures?  Even if this isn’t enough for you, like I stated above, being removed from this world earlier than others can be looked at as rewarding in a way….  And I don’t fully know the motive of God, I would be inclined to believe that because it is in our nature to “sin”, this all has happened, the excuse that these are all due to the devil could be used because after all, if that is the case, it must be working because many of you would agree that you do not believe there is a God because of the sufferings of this world…..

[Avatar Of Belial]

I know, I'm sorry, its just that those responses were on multiple pages in this thread, and I noticed that after you quote the first reply (i.e. hit the quote button on the top of someone's post), it takes you to a new page where you can write your message, but then only goes back a certain amount of posts, which was not nearly enough to get them all...

A tip, for future reference... when I'm replying to multiple people in a thread and I want it all in one post, I open each quote in a separate window (easy to do by middle-mouse clicking the quote button if you have that available) and then copy-pasting the quoted text all into one window. You can then close the one's you won't use.

[WeZzZzRURR]

I assume you are young and your parents are still taking care of you.........and that you have never really suffered,am I right?

Careful in your assumptions, I was out and on my own at 17..... My parents divorced when I was around 9, my mom is now living with her bf and is a raging alcoholic who smokes a pack a day... My dad is currently homeless with his second hernia, camping out on a friend's couch while he scavenges for work (he's a carpenter, as many of you know, with the way the economy is, this isn't exactly an easy career to find work in right now)....

I am in college, only because I was lucky enough to get a full-ride because of my grades in high school and financial need....  To  add to that, I am actually unsure where I will even be living this summer, I'm pretty much flat broke, but it will all work out, I'm not really concerned...

[12 Monkeys]

truly suffering ....like a starving African child, 4000 childen die every hour from starvation

[WeZzZzRURR]

No.

Maybe you need to go through the bible for yourself before you make this claim, try reading genesis and see what is stated in genesis 3, basically that it was a perfect world until Adam and Eve ate the fruit. =P

[bertatberts]

How did they manage that.   

Not entirely sure, there's theories on it I suppose (many that can't be proven), such as its the devil's work, our pollution on this planet causes them (just a theory I've heard), or maybe there is more to this world that we simply lack comprehension of that will be explained in the afterlife (again you hate this theory =D).

I think you misunderstood me, perhaps I should have worded it better. What I meant by "how did they manage that " was how did they manage to sin, from whence came sin.

Are we reading the same bible, what chance was that.

Until man sinned,

When did man sin.

 

Have Catholics, and Jehovah witnesses suddenly ceased to be christians.

Well it depends in how you define the term christian, to me, catholics, jehovas witnesses, and christians are different religions, but to you, they are simply different branches of the christian religion.

What! Do, Catholics, Jehovah witnesses, not believe in a Christ, then that's a new one to me. If they do then by definition they are Christians.

I would for my children, I will never stop being there dad, til I die.  If you love someone you will do anything for them.

Well, that would imply that you assume our relationship with God is that of a parent figure. And talk is cheap my friend, are you telling me that you would do absolutely EVERYTHING for your children?

Yes! 

Another way that the relationship can be seen as is God is our coach, and through hard work and suffering we are rewarded with something great =D, and it sucks getting to that point and often times we hate our coach for it, but we are very thankful in the end when we get that reward... =P

So God isn't a loving father, but it is a loving Coach, ok never met a coach that actual loved his team. another new one to me, are you by chance making it up as you go along.

Even though, I will let my children do their own thing I'm ever the watchful father to step in the moment I feel they need me, and also when they actual ask.  They will never want for anything. I would not be much of a father if I allowed them to put their hand in the flame so to speak would I.

And I understand that, this again assumes a parent-like relationship with God, and like I said I'm not entirely sure why some people suffer, I agree that it seems unfair for many people to go through the suffering that they do in this world, but again, in some eyes, suffering is every minute living in this world that could be a minute in Heaven,

Lol! Providing that such a place exists.

so one could make what seems kind of a cruel argument that those who die very young and suffer for what seems like no reason are indeed better off than us because they are allowed to inherit the gift of Heaven earlier than we are...

Or more likely they simply suffer and die. Wishful thinking isn't going to alleviate the suffering.

And it hasn’t left us to  our own devices, according to the bible, it cast Adam and Eve out of Eden, and blamed the entirety of the human race, for something it caused, itself. It drowned the whole world and it sent its son to die for us, to create a loophole to circumvent a rule it itself had created, the mind boggles.

Well, I am of the belief that in order for us to have free will, we have to have the ability to commit the term coined as "sinning", otherwise, it is not free will....

Why! And how did we acquire this free will, from whence came free will.

[WeZzZzRURR]

The very idea of "sin" is a childish one which requires and presupposes a god in the sky who disapproves of a certain behaviour.

You know, you are always very quick to belittle my beliefs.... What has made you so negative?

There is no such thing as "sin"; it is a religious term.  There is undesirable, counterproductive, even hurtful behaviour, but that's it.  Do we use the word "sin" in our law courts?  No.  If we did, it would seem very odd.  Instantly we would wonder why the person is using a religious term in court.

Undesirable in what sense? It might be undesirable for us to be eaten by animals, but it is desirable to them....  It might be undesirable for us to be killed by earthquakes, but an argument could be made that it is desirable for the betterment of the world (as we have been tending to pollute and ruin the world and its environment)....  It might be counterproductive for us to invest time into something of "less importance" rather than something else of "greater importance", but to someone else it might be the other way around.....  It might be hurtful behavior to one person to kill a man for raping his daughter, but to others, it might be justified.  All of these things are subject to point of view, interpretation, and opinion, and because of that, there is no true basis for them... It is my belief that sin is the basis for them.

[29A]

Yeah its definitely a thing where I will critically examine my beliefs, after all, there are two reasons for me doing this:

-To find out for myself what my beliefs are, and if they differ to your own,

-To have a way to justify them to you, after all, I would be selfish if I came upon such knowledge and kept it to myself... =D

I did this myself a little over 3 years ago. I currently do not believe in any gods because of it and am happy I did it. Best of luck to you on this difficult journey.

[WeZzZzRURR]

I think you misunderstood me, perhaps I should have worded it better. What I meant by "how did they manage that " was how did they manage to sin, from whence came sin.

God gave them one simple rule to follow, and they gave into temptation.

When did man sin?

According to the bible, when adam and eve partook of the forbidden fruit.

What! Do, Catholics, Jehovah witnesses, not believe in a Christ, then that's a new one to me. If they do then by definition they are Christians.

Okay, then I would agree with you there, by defining christians as anyone who believes in christ, than yes, that is true.

Yes!

Than why don't you do absolutely EVERYTHING for them? (not just help them through suffering, I mean literally everything)

So God isn't a loving father, but it is a loving Coach, ok never met a coach that actual loved his team. another new one to me, are you by chance making it up as you go along.

You've never met a coach that loves their team? I agree some coaches just want to win and will do anything in their power to make it happen, but there are many coaches out there that actually really care for their athletes and want the best for them, and know how badly they want that reward and are prepared to make them work hard for it. =)  And I'm not stating that's what God is, to imply that the relationship we have with God is comparable to a human relationship we have with other humans I don't think works, but there are certain aspects of these certain human relationships which I believe could offer insight to the relationship with God.

Lol! Providing that such a place exists.

Yes, that is what my religion would lead me to believe.

Or more likely they simply suffer and die. Wishful thinking isn't going to alleviate the suffering.

Yes, that is another outlook as well.  I would like to believe that the millions of people who went through such sufferings did not go through it for no reason, but at the same token, that doesn't mean we have to not do what we can to help alleviate each other's suffering. =)

Why! And how did we acquire this free will, from whence came free will.

Well, I think without free will, it would pretty much come down to God being in control of every single aspect of everything in our lives, and literally guiding everything.  Free will is what makes us who we are, without free will, we are not conscious beings, it is my belief that free will is what separates us from machines.  We acquired it from God.

[jynnan tonnix]

but it was in our human nature to sin (again whole other topic), and as a result suffering was created.  I understand the ambiguity I have introduced in this statement, again,

Why do you suppose god would have created humans with a nature which evidently seems predestined to sin? Which simply cannot HELP sinning? The standard apologetics always seem to bring up free will at this point, somehow being presented as this wonderful gift god gave us because he loved us so much, yet this gift, in every instance, seems to translate into an almost immediate falling away. To the point of banishment from Eden; to the point of the Flood (after which Noah immediately gets drunk with more ugly repercussions); to the Jews having to wander the desert for 40 years; Sodom & Gomorrah...etc...

Does God have free will? Presumably he must. Did he make similar mistakes in the Creation of humanity? Then he is not perfect.  If he is perfect, why would he create such imperfect beings? Or did he create everything precisely as he meant to? Did he purposely create us with the unerring impulse to "sin" at every turn? Why? He had to have known (being omniscient) that this move would result in a majority...probably a VAST majority of his "children" ending up in hell. If god has free will and is perfect, what stopped him from also creating perfect humans in his image with his same free will? If it works for him, why wouldn't it work for us?

I know this is getting rambly...but it's such a circular question.

Of course, if you simply take god out of the equation, you have homo sapiens with all the natural quirks and impulses you might expect, in boundless variety of personality types interacting with each other and the planet in ways which are amazing in some ways, tragic in others, and none of them faring any better or worse, in general, than they would were there no hypothetical god orchestrating it.

[Star Stuff]

The very idea of "sin" is a childish one which requires and presupposes a god in the sky who disapproves of a certain behaviour.

You know, you are always very quick to belittle my beliefs.... What has made you so negative?

Dude, that's messed up.  Whether quick or slow, I did not "belittle your beliefs", rather, I simply made the point about "sin" being a religious (and childish) idea.  I don't intentionally attach the bankruptness of the idea to you, you convict yourself by associating with it and defending it.  What did I say that was negative?

[WeZzZzRURR]

Why do you suppose god would have created humans with a nature which evidently seems predestined to sin? Which simply cannot HELP sinning? The standard apologetics always seem to bring up free will at this point, somehow being presented as this wonderful gift god gave us because he loved us so much, yet this gift, in every instance, seems to translate into an almost immediate falling away. To the point of banishment from Eden; to the point of the Flood (after which Noah immediately gets drunk with more ugly repercussions); to the Jews having to wander the desert for 40 years; Sodom & Gomorrah...etc...

Does God have free will? Presumably he must. Did he make similar mistakes in the Creation of humanity? Then he is not perfect.  If he is perfect, why would he create such imperfect beings? Or did he create everything precisely as he meant to? Did he purposely create us with the unerring impulse to "sin" at every turn? Why? He had to have known (being omniscient) that this move would result in a majority...probably a VAST majority of his "children" ending up in hell. If god has free will and is perfect, what stopped him from also creating perfect humans in his image with his same free will? If it works for him, why wouldn't it work for us?

I know this is getting rambly...but it's such a circular question.

Of course, if you simply take god out of the equation, you have homo sapiens with all the natural quirks and impulses you might expect, in boundless variety of personality types interacting with each other and the planet in ways which are amazing in some ways, tragic in others, and none of them faring any better or worse, in general, than they would were there no hypothetical god orchestrating it.

Well, yes, I would agree with those that state that we sin because God gave us free will, but it is my belief that free will is important to us.  I would believe that it is because of free will that we have a conscious, which is something that I believe will forever separate us from machines......  And this is my point, is without free will, we are nothing more than machines, simply being pre-programmed to do certain things, with no real ability to truly love God, because after all, if we were pre-programmed to automatically love God and not have a choice, it wouldn't be sincere in the least bit.

[WeZzZzRURR]

Dude, that's messed up.  Whether quick or slow, I did not "belittle your beliefs", rather, I simply made the point about "sin" being a religious (and childish) idea.  I don't intentionally attach the bankruptness of the idea to you, you convict yourself by associating with it and defending it.  What did I say that was negative?

Its messed up that you call my beliefs "childish"...  I might disagree with your beliefs, but I wouldn't try to belittle them by calling them childish.....  I don't care how factually incorrect you believe my beliefs to be, there is no reason to put them down in such a way.....  I might consider your beliefs to be factually incorrect, but I wouldn't call them childish in the least bit, I would simply say that you are trying to find the truth....

[jynnan tonnix]

Well, yes, I would agree with those that state that we sin because God gave us free will, but it is my belief that free will is important to us.  I would believe that it is because of free will that we have a conscious, which is something that I believe will forever separate us from machines......  And this is my point, is without free will, we are nothing more than machines, simply being pre-programmed to do certain things, with no real ability to truly love God, because after all, if we were pre-programmed to automatically love God and not have a choice, it wouldn't be sincere in the least bit.

Yes, but that still leaves out a big part of my question.

Does God have free will? And if he does, but does not sin because he is perfect, then why could he not have created us perfect also? Especially given that he supposedly created us in his image. If he has free will yet does not sin, then free will and a sinless nature are not contradictory. And if they are, then god cannot have free will. So whose puppet is he?