Author Topic: Someone...  (Read 12066 times)

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Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #203 on: June 07, 2012, 08:03:14 PM »
If you guys wouldn't mind, can I continue these discussions with each of you in PM? It is VERY HARD to be one person and try to respond to many different angles in one single post, its a lot easier to do so if each discussion is separated... Just a request, I don't know if I will have time tonight to respond to all of these responses (stupid economics final at 7 am tomorrow, last freaking day of the quarter, you gotta be kidding me...), but I will be responding. =)
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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #204 on: June 07, 2012, 08:24:16 PM »
If you guys wouldn't mind, can I continue these discussions with each of you in PM?

 (stupid economics final at 7 am tomorrow, last freaking day of the quarter, you gotta be kidding me...)

Nah.  The idea of a forum is open conversation.  Focus on your exam for now.
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Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #205 on: June 07, 2012, 09:04:11 PM »
Nah.  The idea of a forum is open conversation.  Focus on your exam for now.

Well this has turned from open discussion to me trying to respond to 30 (or something =P) people's responses to my statements that I make, which can go off in completely different directions, starting whole new arguments on their own, and instead of continuing all of those arguments on one single thread, I would rather simply separate them each into individual threads between me and the individual in which responded to my statement, I would be more than happy to use what I have been told is the debate room, where we can speak about a certain thing, and everyone can see it, but its only between me and him, and possibly other people who we allow to speak. =)

*****edit*****

To add to that, it can be very hard for those people to keep up with what me and that individual are talking about trying to scroll through what everyone else is talking about...  I highly doubt any of you want to, and even have (as this is obvious as many of you thought and still think I used pascal's wager in earlier posts to my argument) gone through all of these posts, this subject has gone in so many different angles...
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 09:08:30 PM by WeZzZzRURR »
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Offline Gill

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #206 on: June 07, 2012, 09:12:23 PM »
nm, I'll start a new thread.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 09:50:44 PM by Gill »

Offline Astreja

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #207 on: June 08, 2012, 12:42:57 AM »
...It can be very hard for those people to keep up with what me and that individual are talking about trying to scroll through what everyone else is talking about...  I highly doubt any of you want to, and even have (as this is obvious as many of you thought and still think I used pascal's wager in earlier posts to my argument) gone through all of these posts, this subject has gone in so many different angles...

May I suggest starting threads in The Shelter?  It's a much more controlled environment, and you won't get snowed under by dozens of responses piling up.
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Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #208 on: June 08, 2012, 01:13:17 AM »
...It can be very hard for those people to keep up with what me and that individual are talking about trying to scroll through what everyone else is talking about...  I highly doubt any of you want to, and even have (as this is obvious as many of you thought and still think I used pascal's wager in earlier posts to my argument) gone through all of these posts, this subject has gone in so many different angles...

May I suggest starting threads in The Shelter?  It's a much more controlled environment, and you won't get snowed under by dozens of responses piling up.

I don't think the shelter would be fitting for this discussion, I'm open to talking to all of you about your beefs with what I say, I am just simply recommending a more orderly way to do it, but its okay, I just got finished copying and pasting all of the 20 different responses, which adds up to over 3000 words, into microsoft word so I can begin to reply to each one easier, I'll have a response hopefully some time soon, but thanks for the consideration. =)
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Offline bertatberts

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #209 on: June 08, 2012, 02:51:43 AM »
I received a PM from Wezzzzrurr, asking why I smited him on post #118 and called him a disgusting person, here is my reply.

Star Stuff, put up an image in post #88 of the thread "someone" regarding a small child starving to death whilst a vulture looks on, you then went on to dodge/ignore the image, and after three posts, you had the gall to blame Star Stuff for the child’s suffering, deliberately using a strawman fallacy, to ignore the obvious question posed. You even used the very same argument being posed by Star Stuff in regard to God and the child, in condemning Star Stuff, here
Quote from: wezzzzrurr"
To have the ability to help a cause in which you consider important, but to not use that ability, but rather blame it on God, pretty compelling stuff.... You're a cruel and terrible person to say the least."
Emphasis mine.
You carried on blaming Star Stuff and Humanity for things which they are powerless to prevent, all totally ignoring the obvious question. Which is god could have prevented it with a single thought, but he doesn't, hasn't and wont.
As Star Stuff said
Quote from: Star Stuff
"Your feeble attempt at distraction fails."
.
And then Tinyal put up an excellent post, to explain to you, why the obvious question was so poignant, and your reply to that, was
Quote from: wezzzzrurr
The importance of money has become to important to this world......  Everyone has the ability to help in some way, some people put themselves in harder positions to be able to help out, but there is always a way to help out.
Again blaming humanity for things which they are powerless to prevent, Droughts, earthquakes, famine, etc. Cannot be blamed on humanity. I can't believe that the post by Tinyal went complete over your head, I can only assume you're deliberately ignoring it, which makes you a cruel and callous individual, hence why I smited you on that post, and called you a disgusting person, for your equivocating and dodging, of an extremely relevant question.
You seem to think the god you believe in can do no wrong.

Bert.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline voodoo child

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #210 on: June 08, 2012, 03:29:58 AM »
If you guys wouldn't mind, can I continue these discussions with each of you in PM? It is VERY HARD to be one person and try to respond to many different angles in one single post, its a lot easier to do so if each discussion is separated... Just a request, I don't know if I will have time tonight to respond to all of these responses (stupid economics final at 7 am tomorrow, last freaking day of the quarter, you gotta be kidding me...), but I will be responding. =)

Welcome to the open learning channel bud. What you say about your beliefs here, teaches the future.
So no.. its public if you don't like it, you don't have to write a dam thing . personally, I prefer you do .
Ita's a learning experience, for you and me and our audience. The title of the thread is; someone. I am someone too.  ;D       
cam
The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

Offline One Above All

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #211 on: June 08, 2012, 04:06:10 AM »
If you guys wouldn't mind, can I continue these discussions with each of you in PM?

I suggest requesting a one-on-one debate. That way you restrict these discussions to one person only. Your PM idea is the same as the forum, the only difference being that not every user gets to see how you argue. Of course, that might be your goal. Who knows?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #212 on: June 08, 2012, 04:51:52 AM »
I suggest requesting a one-on-one debate. That way you restrict these discussions to one person only. Your PM idea is the same as the forum, the only difference being that not every user gets to see how you argue. Of course, that might be your goal. Who knows?

I know, and no that is not my goal, I am not trying to conceal myself or anything, I would have even been perfectly fine with our personal conversations being posted for everyone to see.... At first at thought I wanted to restrict it so that I could talk to each of you in separate conversations, but I actually think I like it this way better now in thinking about it... =)
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #213 on: June 08, 2012, 05:04:54 AM »
If you want a one-on-one debate, I'd like to be the opposing party. Once again, if your goal is to not get swamped by replies, this is a sure-fire way of succeeding.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #214 on: June 08, 2012, 05:15:16 AM »
If you want a one-on-one debate, I'd like to be the opposing party. Once again, if your goal is to not get swamped by replies, this is a sure-fire way of succeeding.

Honestly, I'm really not here for debate..... I am more here to gain insight to your guys's beliefs, and give you insights to my beliefs....  I want to know why you guys don't believe in a God, which I think has been shown to me now, and I want to know why you disagree with my beliefs, which has also been shown pretty well.....  I will respond to everyone soon, but after that I might go off to do research for myself for a while, as it is exceedingly obvious that I am unsure what I truly believe at the moment, and I would like to use what I have learned here to find out for myself what I believe. =)
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #215 on: June 08, 2012, 05:17:53 AM »
If you're not here for debate, I recommend sticking to The Shelter.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #216 on: June 08, 2012, 05:25:19 AM »
If you're not here for debate, I recommend sticking to The Shelter.

As quoted from above by star stuff: (lol just realized how funny it sounds to say from above =D)
"The idea of a forum is open conversation."

It doesn't have to be a debate........
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #217 on: June 08, 2012, 05:28:49 AM »
Trust me, go to The Shelter if you're not looking for a debate.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #218 on: June 08, 2012, 05:30:21 AM »
Trust me, go to The Shelter if you're not looking for a debate.

I'm not going to debate you guys, I'm still learning about your beliefs, and even about my own beliefs...

To add to that, tear me up as much as you want, I don't care.... =)
I want to leave this world knowing that I did everything I can to make it a better place...

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #219 on: June 08, 2012, 07:57:19 AM »
Aren't one and five essentially the same?

They're similar, but the difference is that in #1, one has a coherent idea of a god yet no evidence for it.  Evidence doesn't even apply in #5 because no coherent idea is being offered.
But I've yet to hear a coherent idea of a god outside of the Deist one.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Online Azdgari

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #220 on: June 08, 2012, 08:25:29 AM »
Then you fit into #1, because of the deist one.  Though I've yet to hear a coherent definition of the deist god, either, so I'm in #5.
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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #221 on: June 08, 2012, 09:20:55 AM »
Honestly, I'm really not here for debate.

What I really hear in that statement is:  "There's nothing you can say that will change my mind" (a common position of theists).  It is a position worthy of absolutely no respect.  Just imagine taking that stance on any other subject; say, astrology.  Now see how bankrupt it is.  There's nothing that I hold to be true which I am not prepared to change my mind on, provided with good evidence & reason.



Quote
I am more here to gain insight to your guys's beliefs

You're missing the obvious fact that we (and I reluctantly use the word "we") don't have any "beliefs".  It is the myriad brands of theism which have "beliefs".  Atheism (which isn't really an "ism" at all) is simply the rejection of the god-claims made by other people.  Beyond that, any two atheists may have little to plenty in common.



Quote
...and give you insights to my beliefs

At the risk of sounding condescending, many of us have come from theistic backgrounds, and have also been debating & conversing this topic in a very focused manner for many years, and I for one have yet to hear one thing from the theist camp which makes any sense, is supported by any measure of good reason & evidence, and doesn't come from a level of intellectual dishonesty that we just don't see in any other discourse.  In other words, given all of that, are you so self absorbed that you think & feel that you have some special insight which is going to be fresh and/or convincing to me or any of us here?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 11:05:08 AM by Star Stuff »
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #222 on: June 08, 2012, 11:01:44 AM »
Wez and I have PMd a bit.  If I have not articulated it well enough through that channel, let me reiterate here.

Just because you are in a debate room does not mean you must debate.  You may have one on one, public discussions.  The rules are up to the participants, of which there may be more than two if they so choose

The only hard rule[1] in a debate thread, as far as I am concerned, is only the participants may post.  Apart from that, you may make it whatever you need.
 1. other than the standard forum rules
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Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #223 on: June 08, 2012, 01:07:14 PM »
What I really hear in that statement is:  "There's nothing you can say that will change my mind" (a common position of theists).  It is a position worthy of absolutely no respect.  Just imagine taking that stance on any other subject; say, astrology.  Now see how bankrupt it is.  There's nothing that I hold to be true which I am not prepared to change my mind on, provided with good evidence & reason.

No, I do agree with you that many theists take this position, as do many atheists as well (I'm not pointing any fingers, I think that it could be described as a part of human nature, playing a bigger role in some people more than others based on their personal life experiences)....  To break it down, I want to examine my beliefs looking at both sides, not just scrolling the internet for more things to try and prove my beliefs.  I thought and correct in my thinking that coming here was one of the best ways to gain insight to the opposing side of my beliefs...  And plus, let's just face it, I stated that there are gray areas to my beliefs that I have yet to face, I would be an idiot and completely wasting your guys's time to try and debate with you on something that I am not even sure of for myself... =)  These gray areas I speak of are part of what I plan to face in my research to come.

You're missing the obvious fact that we (and I reluctantly use the word "we") don't have any "beliefs".  It is the myriad brands of theism which have "beliefs".  Atheism (which isn't really an "ism" at all) is simply the rejection of the god-claims made by other people.  Beyond that, any two atheists may have little to plenty in common.v

I understand what you're saying, but to add to that, each of you have shown me that the tag atheist isn't a set definition for everything you believe in, there are variations in what each of you believe in, and I simply wanted to hear those variations. =)

At the risk of sounding condescending, many of us have come from theistic backgrounds, and have also been debating & conversing this topic in a very focused manner for many years, and I for one have yet to hear one thing from the theist camp which makes any sense, is supported by any measure of good reason & evidence, and doesn't come from a level of intellectual dishonesty that we just don't see in any other discourse.  In other words, given all of that, are you so self absorbed that you think & feel that you have some special insight which is going to be fresh and/or convincing to me or any of us here?

I do not make that claim in telling you what I believe.... There are two reasons why I tell you what I believed:
     1. To learn the other side of the belief as I stated above.
     2. I only think its fair that if I expect to understand your beliefs, I should provide you with my own.

Completely off subject, I couldn't sleep last night and I only got 1 hour of sleep, I feel like crap! lol
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Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #224 on: June 08, 2012, 01:10:29 PM »
Wez and I have PMd a bit.  If I have not articulated it well enough through that channel, let me reiterate here.

Just because you are in a debate room does not mean you must debate.  You may have one on one, public discussions.  The rules are up to the participants, of which there may be more than two if they so choose

The only hard rule[1] in a debate thread, as far as I am concerned, is only the participants may post.  Apart from that, you may make it whatever you need.
 1. other than the standard forum rules

Thank you for making that more clear, for a second I thought you were acting as a bear trying to corner a baby bunny so to speak haha.... I simply lack the knowledge of your beliefs, yet alone my own, to even attempt to debate you guys... It would be foolish on my part =)

But, I think that after I respond to all of you in your previous posts (in progress), I will probably back off almost completely so I can start researching for myself, thus I won't need the debate room option... Thank you though. =)
I want to leave this world knowing that I did everything I can to make it a better place...

Offline Dynamic

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #225 on: June 08, 2012, 01:19:48 PM »
I have a question(s).

What makes you believe the religion of Christianity?
That god exists?
That the flood happened?

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

If you want to talk through skype, message me.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #226 on: June 08, 2012, 01:21:34 PM »
for a second I thought you were acting as a bear trying to corner a baby bunny so to speak haha....

nope.  I was trying to offer you a way to not be so overwhelmed.  Many, many religious people come here with the best of intent and jump off into the deep end.  And when I see them drowning I offer them a life saver. They almost always reply "no thanks, man, I'm good" right before they sink to the bottom, never to be seen again.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #227 on: June 08, 2012, 01:23:51 PM »
I have a question(s).

What makes you believe the religion of Christianity?
That god exists?
That the flood happened?

To be fair to Wez, he's already answered some of this.  Check his posts in his profile and whatever questions are not answered, ask him then.  I'm not even sure whether he believes The Flood happened nor if he considers himself xian, per se.
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #228 on: June 08, 2012, 06:30:20 PM »
No, I do agree with you that many theists take this position, as do many atheists as well (I'm not pointing any fingers, I think that it could be described as a part of human nature, playing a bigger role in some people more than others based on their personal life experiences)....  To break it down, I want to examine my beliefs looking at both sides, not just scrolling the internet for more things to try and prove my beliefs.  I thought and correct in my thinking that coming here was one of the best ways to gain insight to the opposing side of my beliefs...  And plus, let's just face it, I stated that there are gray areas to my beliefs that I have yet to face, I would be an idiot and completely wasting your guys's time to try and debate with you on something that I am not even sure of for myself... =)  These gray areas I speak of are part of what I plan to face in my research to come.

This is a bit different than what you came to the site with originally, but I like this a whole lot better.  This is brave and honest of you. 

We are not asking you to start out with the notion that God is not real.  I would say we are asking you to start out on this process with the question as to which side of the argument presents a better case, irregardless of the way it makes you feel, or how it makes you feel about others.  Forget that so many people believe it.  Forget that you've believed it for years.  Set all of that aside and start as clean as you can.  Hear BOTH sides of the argument and examine them critically. 

Good luck WeZ. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #229 on: June 08, 2012, 07:53:18 PM »
nope.  I was trying to offer you a way to not be so overwhelmed.  Many, many religious people come here with the best of intent and jump off into the deep end.  And when I see them drowning I offer them a life saver. They almost always reply "no thanks, man, I'm good" right before they sink to the bottom, never to be seen again.

And I think that would be inevitable if I didn't even know what I really believe in yet.... =P
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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #230 on: June 08, 2012, 08:21:13 PM »
Yes, post #223 is refreshing, and well put JeffPT.

I'm reminded of this:


All that is necessary, as it seems to me, to convince any reasonable person that the Bible is simply and purely of human invention, of barbarian invention, is to read it.  Read it as you would any other book. Think of it as you would of any other; get the bandage of reverence from your eyes; drive from your heart the phantom of fear; push from the throne of your brain the cowled form of superstition. Then read the Holy Bible, and you will be amazed that you ever, for one moment, supposed a being of infinite wisdom, goodness and purity, to be the author of such ignorance and of such atrocity.  (Robert G. Ingersoll)



Religions survive mainly because they brainwash the young.  Three-quarters of Church of England schools are primary schools; all the faiths currently jostling for our tax money to run their "faith-based" schools know that if they do not proselytize intellectually defenseless three- and four-year-olds, their grip will eventually loosen.  Inculcating the various competing — competing, note — falsehoods of the major faiths into small children is a form of child abuse, and a scandal.  Let us challenge religion to leave children alone until they are adults, whereupon they can be presented with the essentials of religion for mature consideration.  For example: tell an averagely intelligent adult hitherto free of religious brainwashing that somewhere, invisibly, there is a being somewhat like us, with desires, interests, purposes, memories, and emotions of anger, love, vengefulness, and jealousy, yet with the negation of such other of our failings as mortality, weakness, corporeality, visibility, limited knowledge and insight; and that this god magically impregnates a mortal woman, who then gives birth to a special being who performs various prodigious feats before departing for heaven.  Take your pick of which version of this story to tell: let a King of Heaven impregnate — let's see — Danae or Io or Leda or the Virgin Mary (etc., etc.) and let there be resulting heaven-destined progeny (Heracles, Castor and Pollux, Jesus., etc., etc.) — or any of the other forms of exactly such tales in Babylonian, Egyptian, and other mythologies — then ask which of them he wishes to believe.  One can guarantee that such a person would say: none of them.  (A. C. Grayling)
God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #231 on: June 09, 2012, 05:23:06 AM »
Okay, here we go, here is this ridiculous response to all of you....... I'm sorry if you guys have to read all of this:


1.   Reply #159 by Dynamic:

“I never said that it was "disproving" I was simply saying that the atheist side has provided more evidence for their claim, while you have provided little to none. “

I’ve been lending insight to my beliefs, it might come off as claims of fact, but if you pay close attention, I am simply stating my beliefs… I am not debating anyone on the claims they made, I have offered alternative ways of examining certain things in which they bring up, but I don’t personally claim these alternates as facts, I still need to find a lot of that out for myself, I am just stating them.

“I would ask you politely to provide me all the evidence for the bible that you can, and be proven. Now, if you ask for atheists evidence, I'm sure the much more smarter people have already given enough in the previous posts.”

Well I would try to prove the bible to you, but to be quite honest, I am still unsure about parts of it for myself… =P

2.   Reply #161 by EV:

“But really, I admire your spirit, and your withstanding against this grilling, you did use Pascal's Wager, and what about those contradictions? Do you think they aren't true? “

Again, I did not use the wager.  It came up in an example that I was providing to someone, but it no means did I use the wager yet alone support it because I think it is stupid. =P And I still need to tackle those contradictions, try to bare with me along with the other 30,000 people in this forum grilling me… ;)

3.   Reply #162 by rickymooston:

“Yes and combine that with anlot of evidence ppl make up suprrnatural claims.”

Ummm, what? =D

4.   Reply #163 by Azdgari:

“You take for granted that a god's retribution would be felt in the afterlife, and that it would come from non-belief rather than from belief.  I realize those are your beliefs, but you are not talking to people who share your beliefs - which is something you knew.  So it makes no sense to make those assumptions in your post.  Yet you made them.  Why?  Because they're cultural.”

I am not assuming you guys share my beliefs, I’m still a little confused what you are trying to say, probably my lack of communication skills that has been brought up multiple times already =P……

5.   Reply #164 by Anfauglir:

“Funny thing - I'm betting on option 1.....”

Haha, what makes you bet that? ;D

6.   Reply #165 by relativetruth:

“Although I am late to this thread I have gone thru even single post.

When the discussion got to the topic of 'why bad things happen' or the 'existence of evil' you seem to be saying that when 'things go wrong' it is down to human mismanagement.
So war, poverty, etc are human 'creations'.

Can you explain why, in your view, that earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, killer infectious diseases , etc happen which seem to indiscriminately kill millions of innocent humans of all ages regardless of their own beliefs?”

Well I think if I could explain that to you I wouldn’t be on this forum, I would be winning some kind of award….  Again these are things that I am even unsure and that I need to really look into, I could make a guess that human sin has brought all of these things into this world, but there are SOOOOO many different directions in which the replies from me saying could go, so I will not state it as my belief, or as a claim to refute yours, just all I got right now, because I have research to do. =)

“What is the point that an ALL-good and ALL-powerfull god is making with this message?”

Well, I guess possibly, He’s trying to say that He offered us a chance, if you look back to Adam and Eve, to live in a world without what we call “suffering”, but it was in our human nature to sin (again whole other topic), and as a result suffering was created.  I understand the ambiguity I have introduced in this statement, again, these are things that I am unsure about myself…

7.   Reply #166 by star stuff:

“It's one thing to question the hypocrisy of some people within your church, that's easy; but what you ought to consider is that of the thousands of religions and gods man has invented, the one you generally adhere to is the one introduced to your developing & influential young mind.”

Yes, generally, by use of that word, I would agree with you.

“It is a remarkable coincidence that almost everyone has the same religion as their parents and it always just so happens they’re the right religion.  (Richard Dawkins)”

Well my parents must account for part of the rare few who don’t hold their parents religions, as both were raised catholics, which they denounced far before they met each other, and now my dad is a Christian and my mom believes in a God, but it’s a long story……. (they’re divorced by the way). Some of my closest friends were raised jehovas witnesses, and almost instantly changed to Christianity.

“This statement reveals just how impenetrable your mind has become on this matter.  I offer (and like) these quotes because I have the humility to appreciate and consider the insight that another mind has had in forming them.  They offer a fresh insight, which, is open to consideration and musing, and can be appreciated or dismissed on their own merits (as opposed to simply accepting the claimed authoritative dogma from the pulpit or bible).  You have said this "Just a matter of opinion" line a few times already, which displays that you're not super interested in changing your mind.  But, I guess the upside of being stubborn is that you'll always know what you'll be thinking tomorrow.”

One would say that your mind has become impenetrable too ;).  I enjoy quotes myself, obviously when my personal beliefs are attacked my enjoyment in these quotes will decrease, but I don’t instantly block them out as if they are irrelevant, your quote brings up an interesting point to your views, but I want to hear you, not someone else. =)

8.   Reply #167 by JeffPT

“The point was that if God were real, he doesn't have to work for things.  He just thinks them and they can happen.  Humans are different from god so the comparison is horrible.  You're not comparing apples to apples, you are comparing apples to the space shuttle.  “

Well if you are making the comparison as to the abilities of us as humans and God, then I completely agree with you.  What I meant was in the sense of one having the ability to help, not a measure of their ability to help, so yes, I do agree with you there. =)

“Why does it matter whether or not we would take supernatural healings for granted?  Would they be a good thing or not?  If your mother had cancer and God came down and personally healed it, what would you think?”

Well, I kinda feel like we might come to expect everything to be taken care of for us, in the act losing respect for God as it would basically come down to him serving us, not us serving him.

Well, first off, if I witnessed God come down and heal it, I would then question why would you allow her to have cancer if you were just going to come down and heal it? I would question the motive behind it, and possibly since he would be right there, maybe he could provide me with the correct answer we are all looking for… =)  Of course I would be grateful for him healing her, but I would also be a little confused…



“No.  I mean actually showing some evidence of ending it that we can verify in some way shape or form.  You see, this is your theologicalposition on the matter.  It's your excuse.  The whole heaven and hell thing is not proven at all.  Not in the least.  There is no way to verify anything about it.  This is what you may believe to be true, but that has no bearing on whether or not it is.  “

And I agree with you, I can’t prove to you that its true, so we don’t know…..  I would like to believe that there are things in this world that we will never know…..  I would also like to believe that God won’t kick me off a cliff to Hell (if I make it to Heaven) when I ask him the what will surely be thousands of questions about this life… ;) Its not an excuse, we don’t simply think “crap, we don’t have anything to say to that, oh wait, just say heaven and hell!”, Its our belief.


“Again, this is theology, not factual information.  This is something that you've been told by other people, or maybe even made up yourself, probably a long time ago, to square the fact that suffering exists on a massive scale, with the proposition that there is a benevolent sky person watching over you at all times.  You can't prove it, but you say it as if it makes a difference.  “

Well tell me, should if God exists, should he do everything for us in this world, should he love our children for us, should he cut our hair for us, should he cook our food for us, should he raise our children for us?  These are all things in which I think you would agree with me that if there were a God, we should be responsible for doing these things, then if it is possible that God has left these things up to us to work out, why isn’t it possible that there are other things that he left for us to work out? =)

“Can you deny the possibility that the reason suffering exists is because we are a fragile species on an often dangerous planet and we try to eek out an existence to the best of our ability; sometimes failing in the process? “

But where did suffering come to be exactly?

“You mean that good things in this world happen because we humans make them happen?  And the bad things happen because we don't do enough to stop them?  That sounds like something I would say, and not something you would say.  That sounds an awful lot like God plays no role in anything.  I'd have to agree with you.”
 
Well it is my belief that God plays a hand in everything in some way (that argument could be made just by the ideal that if there is a God, anything we do is due to him creating us)…  So in a sense, you can say that even those good things from your work or the work of others has been affected by God, provided he exists.

“Sure.  But if God exists, he has the power to do that too.  Wouldn't it be great if God came down and fixed starvation as well?  The fact that he does not, cries out for an explanation.  The whole 'they'll be rewarded in heaven' is one very unprovable explanation.  The other is that God is neutral in temperament regarding man, or that there is no such thing as God.  After all, if there was no God, none of the starving children in the world would be fed by God, right?   “ 

Well, kinda by the same token, God as the power to wipe our butts, clip or toe nails, wash us, pretty much do everything for us right? But does that mean that he should do everything for us?

“I'm an atheist Wez.  I've known that a long time.  Nothing comes from God.  It all comes from us.  You're not helping your point here I don't think.  “

As I stated above, if there is a God, then yes, absolutely everything we do comes from him since  he created us in the first place.

“Do you have any proof that this is the case?  If not, please tell me why should I consider it? “

Yeah let me just pull out my book on proved things that are unproveable in this world ;D Notice how I said maybe, as in it is a possibility, and until that possibility is proven to be impossible, it would make sense that regardless of how unlikely it seems to you, you should hold a small amount of consideration for it.

“My grandmother died of cancer.  My wife's mother died from cancer.  My mother survived it because doctors chopped off both her breasts.  You are going to tell me that your dad's friend was healed of his cancer and arthritis by God but he couldn't lift a finger to help my grandmother or my wife's mother, or to prevent my own mother from losing her breasts?  Is that who you want to worship?  “

Yeah actually even as I was writing that I questioned it myself for the same reasons as you, that’s another gray area now that I’m unsure of……  I’m not sure if I believe God made that healing to my dad’s friend happen…

“You know, you talk a good game about wanting to help everyone out, but if you follow your God's example, the real world evidence seems to show that God (if he exists) picks and chooses who to heal, and does so in a way that is unable to be differentiated from normal healing processes.  “

Here’s an interesting thought that I just thought of, I think this argument would imply a measure of God’s healing, as in all of these sufferings are of a measureable and therefore comparable amount……  Does such a table for comparison exist to you? Because a Christian could very well make that argument, that if there is a God, every minute spent on this world is suffering because it means a minute longer that you have to wait to be in Heaven, so in the eyes of some people, dying at an earlier age (and thus leaving this world of obvious imperfections), could be a good thing.  Just saying…. =)

“But you can't say the church has strayed from its true meaning if you don't know what that true meaning is, can you?  “

Yeah good point there, that was dumb of me =D….  I’m trying to say that I am unsure of what the absolute true meaning is, there are certain things that people do whilst claiming to a specific religion that obviously make them hypocritical.

“The bible disagrees with you.” 

Does it? I’ll have to see =) I hope you haven’t misinterpreted what I said to mean that we can believe in whatever we want and whatever God we want and we will still be saved, just more that holding a person at gunpoint and telling them to believe in my religion isn’t the right way…. And I think these are mistakes that are commonly made…

“But the resource they point to, to try and force their religion on others is the same bible as you use. “

Yes, but somewhere along the way these people decided for themselves that they could try to force their religion on people, which I have yet to encounter as the teachings of the Bible.  Note that there is a huge difference between holding someone at gunpoint and making them admit they believe a religion (even though chances are they really don’t), and stating that your religion is the one true one.  You can state your religion is the one true one, but then leave it up to someone to accept that or not….. but if you go from there to force it upon them, that’s no bueno =P

“That's fine.  Point of view noted.  Now, examine whether or not there are solid reasons to think that your point of view is way off base.  That's the point of debating it. “

Will do. =)

9.   Reply #168 by 12 Monkeys:

“So belief without research,,,,how fitting,take what you have been spoon fed and believe it......when you "start" doing this research on the load of shit you have been fed get back to me”

“Belief with research, but more research to be done” is how I would like to think of it…. I’ve just been putting it off really….

10.   Reply # 169 by Timtheskeptic:

“That sounded a bit like, "I don't know why my daddy is, i don't even know what he looks like, but i know that This man is my daddy!"”

I would like to point out that I was criticized for making a comparison between God and man…. ;)

11.   Reply #170 by 12 Monkeys:

“FUCKING RETARDED........he looks out for you or his favourite sports star that month but cant be bothered to end the torment of the starving....typical hypocrite Christian thinking”

I don’t believe he takes special interest in me or tim tebow……

12.   Reply #172 by Timtheskeptic:

“You know why that is right? It's rather strange isn't it? A god, from your bible that is, has humans write stuff down for thousands of years and yet people kept changing it over and over to fit to what they want the bible to say. Doesn't that sound odd to you? “

Yes? Not sure what you’re trying to say here, if it is that I am claiming to believe in a God that exists in the bible that I stated could have been subject to altercations, then I would invite you to read some of my posts and notice that I have not read the bible from cover to cover, and until I do so, it would be foolish of me to limit my beliefs to that of the bible.

13.   Reply #174 by Timtheskeptic:

“No, it's not contradictory or even hypocritical. I'm an agnostic atheist because i may not be 100% certain that there isn't a god, but i don't believe because there isn't any evidence for one. That's it.”

Yeah I get it now, its that you don’t believe there is a god, but you admit that there is 0.0000000000000000001% that there could be a God. Would that be accurate or do I need to throw some more 0’s on there? ;D

14.   Reply #175 by Timtheskeptic:

“As i've asked another theist while back, i'll ask you. Can you prove that i don't have a gnome in my bedroom? Can you prove that i don't have a dragon living in my garage?”

Well the gnome, no, but the dragon, yes, I slayed it with my battle axe (lol)…..  I get it now, thanks. =)

15.   Reply #176 by Nam:

“Emptiness in view of a religious person who feels they know their deity even though they know next to nothing, or nothing of their religion which created their deity.  I get this from the OP's posts from page 3 on.

Until he's clear about his religion how can he be clear about his god?”

Your last point is very good, that’s why I said I have gray areas I need to face…. 

16.   Reply #177 by Timtheskeptic:

“The problem is this; which god would that be that exists and what evidence are there to prove that this god exists, that is the problem.”

Just a God figure in general, not limiting it to and specific religion…

“Why would you want to build a relationship with some deity that is written in a book? That is no different than me wanting to build a relationship with Gandalf in Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter or even Luke Skywalker.”

Come on man, your not friends with Gan on facebook? ;) TO ME, I see things in this world that relate to the ideal of a God in addition to a book.

"Also, I do good deeds because i see nothing good about doing bad deeds. I don't need a fear or hell or prison to keep me from doing bad because i don't want to do bad. When someone said, "Since you don't believe in God, what's going to stop you from killing people." My question is, why on earth would i want to kill? I may get angry and i may want to punch someone (Not that i would like to or should ever do so), but never kill. So why would you be good because of your God?"

Well I’m not stating that our world’s definition of “good” is limited to only those who believe in God, I’m just stating that our world’s definition of “good” typically coincides with my moral beliefs, and as such, I do them because my morals tell me that they are the right thing to do.

17.   Reply #179 by ADD Homonym:

“I would hate to be ungrateful about being born into a world with cancer, death, syphilis, venomous spiders, wasps, cholera, continual work to grow food, warfare, psychopaths, fear of hell, ....”

I would too if it meant that even after directly going against a God, that God was willing to forgive us and give us a chance to inherit the gifts of Heaven. =)

“However, I think you presuppose that your soul existed, prior to you being born, and got given some kind of great opportunity. The apparent reality is, that animals can reproduce in any numbers, and what they get out of life is not anything to be thankful for, besides to others of their species that pave the way for them. I'm thankful not to god, but to various scientists who have made my life easy.”

I’m actually not sure how I feel about the whole soul existing before I was born, and what happens to animals, that’s something I’m confused about….

“"We" have 2 options:
1) Not be born at all (*phew*)
2) Face the almost certain hell, and a cryptic God, who enjoys lying to us.”

I’m sorry you have such a pessimistic view on this… =/

“Option 1 appears to be something to be thankful for, but it's a fallacious option, because there is no "we", prior to being born. Therefore, "we" are all forced into this world.

Why aren't you unthankful for the things he hasn't blessed you with?”

Because, just the belief that he has given me a chance to inherit Heaven is more than the blessing I feel I deserve….

“The answer is that you have been told not to be, on pain of eternal punishment. So, you have been forced into the world, and then forced to be thankful.”

No, I think the above about sums it up, but thanks though. =)

“I'm thankful that I'm not suffering more than some others that I see, but why am I thankful to God for that? It's just lotto, and the illusion of "I". "I" did not deserve to be born into wealth, anymore than others deserved to be born into pain. The two groups simply exist, because of the way the world is structured. By implication, if I should be thankful for not being someone else, then they have the perfect right to not be thankful for being them. But, no, Christians say you should always be thankful to God, no matter what shithole you are born into. It's all relative. I'm sure there are aliens out there that live in perpetual orgasm. Gosh, I'm thankful not to be them.”

Lol, the perpetual orgasm statement reminds me of a stand-up comedy act I saw on youtube…..  Um, I don’t think it is our nature as Christians to be thankful to God to not be as worse off as someone else, I think rather it is more our nature to want to help those that are worse off than us…. 

18.   Reply #180 by Hatter23:

“Not even remotely contradictory.

Gnosticism is about knowledge of gods
Theism is about belief in them.

Consequently

Agnosticism: I see no evidence, I have no knowledge.
Atheism: I do not believe.”

Got it! =)

   17. Reply #183 by Hatter23:

“that's Pascal's Wager, your protests non-withstanding”

……..  Once again, I will state this as I have stated multiple times… I did not use the wager.  It came up in an example that I was providing to someone, but it no means did I use the wager yet alone support it because I think it is stupid.

“It cannot be proved either way for: Elves, Psyhic powers, Homeopathy, Zues, Santa,The Bogieman, Hogwarts, demons, Ugabuga, Many tailed Fox spirits, hungry Chinese ghosts, Huitzilopochtli , bigfoot,  and so forth.

Not being provable either way is the nature of all paranormal beings, but unless you are told about them, the default is non-belief.”

Very good point in that last statement!! I didn’t even think of it like that, unfortunately, in the sense he meant, he has been told about them (doesn’t mean they exist), so then the default wouldn’t be non-belief?
I want to leave this world knowing that I did everything I can to make it a better place...