Okay, here we go, here is this ridiculous response to all of you....... I'm sorry if you guys have to read all of this:1. Reply #159 by Dynamic:
“I never said that it was "disproving" I was simply saying that the atheist side has provided more evidence for their claim, while you have provided little to none. “I’ve been lending insight to my beliefs, it might come off as claims of fact, but if you pay close attention, I am simply stating my beliefs… I am not debating anyone on the claims they made, I have offered alternative ways of examining certain things in which they bring up, but I don’t personally claim these alternates as facts, I still need to find a lot of that out for myself, I am just stating them.
“I would ask you politely to provide me all the evidence for the bible that you can, and be proven. Now, if you ask for atheists evidence, I'm sure the much more smarter people have already given enough in the previous posts.”Well I would try to prove the bible to you, but to be quite honest, I am still unsure about parts of it for myself… =P2. Reply #161 by EV:
“But really, I admire your spirit, and your withstanding against this grilling, you did use Pascal's Wager, and what about those contradictions? Do you think they aren't true? “Again, I did not use the wager. It came up in an example that I was providing to someone, but it no means did I use the wager yet alone support it because I think it is stupid. =P And I still need to tackle those contradictions, try to bare with me along with the other 30,000 people in this forum grilling me… 3. Reply #162 by rickymooston:
“Yes and combine that with anlot of evidence ppl make up suprrnatural claims.”Ummm, what? =D4. Reply #163 by Azdgari:
“You take for granted that a god's retribution would be felt in the afterlife, and that it would come from non-belief rather than from belief. I realize those are your beliefs, but you are not talking to people who share your beliefs - which is something you knew. So it makes no sense to make those assumptions in your post. Yet you made them. Why? Because they're cultural.”I am not assuming you guys share my beliefs, I’m still a little confused what you are trying to say, probably my lack of communication skills that has been brought up multiple times already =P…… 5. Reply #164 by Anfauglir:
“Funny thing - I'm betting on option 1.....”Haha, what makes you bet that? 6. Reply #165 by relativetruth:
“Although I am late to this thread I have gone thru even single post.
When the discussion got to the topic of 'why bad things happen' or the 'existence of evil' you seem to be saying that when 'things go wrong' it is down to human mismanagement.
So war, poverty, etc are human 'creations'.
Can you explain why, in your view, that earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, killer infectious diseases , etc happen which seem to indiscriminately kill millions of innocent humans of all ages regardless of their own beliefs?”Well I think if I could explain that to you I wouldn’t be on this forum, I would be winning some kind of award…. Again these are things that I am even unsure and that I need to really look into, I could make a guess that human sin has brought all of these things into this world, but there are SOOOOO many different directions in which the replies from me saying could go, so I will not state it as my belief, or as a claim to refute yours, just all I got right now, because I have research to do. =)
“What is the point that an ALL-good and ALL-powerfull god is making with this message?”Well, I guess possibly, He’s trying to say that He offered us a chance, if you look back to Adam and Eve, to live in a world without what we call “suffering”, but it was in our human nature to sin (again whole other topic), and as a result suffering was created. I understand the ambiguity I have introduced in this statement, again, these are things that I am unsure about myself…
7. Reply #166 by star stuff:
“It's one thing to question the hypocrisy of some people within your church, that's easy; but what you ought to consider is that of the thousands of religions and gods man has invented, the one you generally adhere to is the one introduced to your developing & influential young mind.”Yes, generally, by use of that word, I would agree with you.
“It is a remarkable coincidence that almost everyone has the same religion as their parents and it always just so happens they’re the right religion. (Richard Dawkins)”Well my parents must account for part of the rare few who don’t hold their parents religions, as both were raised catholics, which they denounced far before they met each other, and now my dad is a Christian and my mom believes in a God, but it’s a long story……. (they’re divorced by the way). Some of my closest friends were raised jehovas witnesses, and almost instantly changed to Christianity.
“This statement reveals just how impenetrable your mind has become on this matter. I offer (and like) these quotes because I have the humility to appreciate and consider the insight that another mind has had in forming them. They offer a fresh insight, which, is open to consideration and musing, and can be appreciated or dismissed on their own merits (as opposed to simply accepting the claimed authoritative dogma from the pulpit or bible). You have said this "Just a matter of opinion" line a few times already, which displays that you're not super interested in changing your mind. But, I guess the upside of being stubborn is that you'll always know what you'll be thinking tomorrow.”One would say that your mind has become impenetrable too . I enjoy quotes myself, obviously when my personal beliefs are attacked my enjoyment in these quotes will decrease, but I don’t instantly block them out as if they are irrelevant, your quote brings up an interesting point to your views, but I want to hear you, not someone else. =)8. Reply #167 by JeffPT
“The point was that if God were real, he doesn't have to work for things. He just thinks them and they can happen. Humans are different from god so the comparison is horrible. You're not comparing apples to apples, you are comparing apples to the space shuttle. “Well if you are making the comparison as to the abilities of us as humans and God, then I completely agree with you. What I meant was in the sense of one having the ability to help, not a measure of their ability to help, so yes, I do agree with you there. =)
“Why does it matter whether or not we would take supernatural healings for granted? Would they be a good thing or not? If your mother had cancer and God came down and personally healed it, what would you think?”Well, I kinda feel like we might come to expect everything to be taken care of for us, in the act losing respect for God as it would basically come down to him serving us, not us serving him.
Well, first off, if I witnessed God come down and heal it, I would then question why would you allow her to have cancer if you were just going to come down and heal it? I would question the motive behind it, and possibly since he would be right there, maybe he could provide me with the correct answer we are all looking for… =) Of course I would be grateful for him healing her, but I would also be a little confused…
“No. I mean actually showing some evidence of ending it that we can verify in some way shape or form. You see, this is your theologicalposition on the matter. It's your excuse. The whole heaven and hell thing is not proven at all. Not in the least. There is no way to verify anything about it. This is what you may believe to be true, but that has no bearing on whether or not it is. “And I agree with you, I can’t prove to you that its true, so we don’t know….. I would like to believe that there are things in this world that we will never know….. I would also like to believe that God won’t kick me off a cliff to Hell (if I make it to Heaven) when I ask him the what will surely be thousands of questions about this life… Its not an excuse, we don’t simply think “crap, we don’t have anything to say to that, oh wait, just say heaven and hell!”, Its our belief.
“Again, this is theology, not factual information. This is something that you've been told by other people, or maybe even made up yourself, probably a long time ago, to square the fact that suffering exists on a massive scale, with the proposition that there is a benevolent sky person watching over you at all times. You can't prove it, but you say it as if it makes a difference. “ Well tell me, should if God exists, should he do everything for us in this world, should he love our children for us, should he cut our hair for us, should he cook our food for us, should he raise our children for us? These are all things in which I think you would agree with me that if there were a God, we should be responsible for doing these things, then if it is possible that God has left these things up to us to work out, why isn’t it possible that there are other things that he left for us to work out? =)
“Can you deny the possibility that the reason suffering exists is because we are a fragile species on an often dangerous planet and we try to eek out an existence to the best of our ability; sometimes failing in the process? “ But where did suffering come to be exactly?
“You mean that good things in this world happen because we humans make them happen? And the bad things happen because we don't do enough to stop them? That sounds like something I would say, and not something you would say. That sounds an awful lot like God plays no role in anything. I'd have to agree with you.” Well it is my belief that God plays a hand in everything in some way (that argument could be made just by the ideal that if there is a God, anything we do is due to him creating us)… So in a sense, you can say that even those good things from your work or the work of others has been affected by God, provided he exists.
“Sure. But if God exists, he has the power to do that too. Wouldn't it be great if God came down and fixed starvation as well? The fact that he does not, cries out for an explanation. The whole 'they'll be rewarded in heaven' is one very unprovable explanation. The other is that God is neutral in temperament regarding man, or that there is no such thing as God. After all, if there was no God, none of the starving children in the world would be fed by God, right? “ Well, kinda by the same token, God as the power to wipe our butts, clip or toe nails, wash us, pretty much do everything for us right? But does that mean that he should do everything for us?
“I'm an atheist Wez. I've known that a long time. Nothing comes from God. It all comes from us. You're not helping your point here I don't think. “As I stated above, if there is a God, then yes, absolutely everything we do comes from him since he created us in the first place.
“Do you have any proof that this is the case? If not, please tell me why should I consider it? “Yeah let me just pull out my book on proved things that are unproveable in this world Notice how I said maybe, as in it is a possibility, and until that possibility is proven to be impossible, it would make sense that regardless of how unlikely it seems to you, you should hold a small amount of consideration for it.
“My grandmother died of cancer. My wife's mother died from cancer. My mother survived it because doctors chopped off both her breasts. You are going to tell me that your dad's friend was healed of his cancer and arthritis by God but he couldn't lift a finger to help my grandmother or my wife's mother, or to prevent my own mother from losing her breasts? Is that who you want to worship? “Yeah actually even as I was writing that I questioned it myself for the same reasons as you, that’s another gray area now that I’m unsure of…… I’m not sure if I believe God made that healing to my dad’s friend happen…
“You know, you talk a good game about wanting to help everyone out, but if you follow your God's example, the real world evidence seems to show that God (if he exists) picks and chooses who to heal, and does so in a way that is unable to be differentiated from normal healing processes. “Here’s an interesting thought that I just thought of, I think this argument would imply a measure of God’s healing, as in all of these sufferings are of a measureable and therefore comparable amount…… Does such a table for comparison exist to you? Because a Christian could very well make that argument, that if there is a God, every minute spent on this world is suffering because it means a minute longer that you have to wait to be in Heaven, so in the eyes of some people, dying at an earlier age (and thus leaving this world of obvious imperfections), could be a good thing. Just saying…. =)
“But you can't say the church has strayed from its true meaning if you don't know what that true meaning is, can you? “Yeah good point there, that was dumb of me =D…. I’m trying to say that I am unsure of what the absolute true meaning is, there are certain things that people do whilst claiming to a specific religion that obviously make them hypocritical.
“The bible disagrees with you.” Does it? I’ll have to see =) I hope you haven’t misinterpreted what I said to mean that we can believe in whatever we want and whatever God we want and we will still be saved, just more that holding a person at gunpoint and telling them to believe in my religion isn’t the right way…. And I think these are mistakes that are commonly made…
“But the resource they point to, to try and force their religion on others is the same bible as you use. “ Yes, but somewhere along the way these people decided for themselves that they could try to force their religion on people, which I have yet to encounter as the teachings of the Bible. Note that there is a huge difference between holding someone at gunpoint and making them admit they believe a religion (even though chances are they really don’t), and stating that your religion is the one true one. You can state your religion is the one true one, but then leave it up to someone to accept that or not….. but if you go from there to force it upon them, that’s no bueno =P
“That's fine. Point of view noted. Now, examine whether or not there are solid reasons to think that your point of view is way off base. That's the point of debating it. “Will do. =)9. Reply #168 by 12 Monkeys:
“So belief without research,,,,how fitting,take what you have been spoon fed and believe it......when you "start" doing this research on the load of shit you have been fed get back to me”“Belief with research, but more research to be done” is how I would like to think of it…. I’ve just been putting it off really….10. Reply # 169 by Timtheskeptic:
“That sounded a bit like, "I don't know why my daddy is, i don't even know what he looks like, but i know that This man is my daddy!"”I would like to point out that I was criticized for making a comparison between God and man…. 11. Reply #170 by 12 Monkeys:
“FUCKING RETARDED........he looks out for you or his favourite sports star that month but cant be bothered to end the torment of the starving....typical hypocrite Christian thinking”I don’t believe he takes special interest in me or tim tebow…… 12. Reply #172 by Timtheskeptic:
“You know why that is right? It's rather strange isn't it? A god, from your bible that is, has humans write stuff down for thousands of years and yet people kept changing it over and over to fit to what they want the bible to say. Doesn't that sound odd to you? “Yes? Not sure what you’re trying to say here, if it is that I am claiming to believe in a God that exists in the bible that I stated could have been subject to altercations, then I would invite you to read some of my posts and notice that I have not read the bible from cover to cover, and until I do so, it would be foolish of me to limit my beliefs to that of the bible.13. Reply #174 by Timtheskeptic:
“No, it's not contradictory or even hypocritical. I'm an agnostic atheist because i may not be 100% certain that there isn't a god, but i don't believe because there isn't any evidence for one. That's it.”Yeah I get it now, its that you don’t believe there is a god, but you admit that there is 0.0000000000000000001% that there could be a God. Would that be accurate or do I need to throw some more 0’s on there? 14. Reply #175 by Timtheskeptic:
“As i've asked another theist while back, i'll ask you. Can you prove that i don't have a gnome in my bedroom? Can you prove that i don't have a dragon living in my garage?”Well the gnome, no, but the dragon, yes, I slayed it with my battle axe (lol)….. I get it now, thanks. =)15. Reply #176 by Nam:
“Emptiness in view of a religious person who feels they know their deity even though they know next to nothing, or nothing of their religion which created their deity. I get this from the OP's posts from page 3 on.
Until he's clear about his religion how can he be clear about his god?”Your last point is very good, that’s why I said I have gray areas I need to face…. 16. Reply #177 by Timtheskeptic:
“The problem is this; which god would that be that exists and what evidence are there to prove that this god exists, that is the problem.”Just a God figure in general, not limiting it to and specific religion…
“Why would you want to build a relationship with some deity that is written in a book? That is no different than me wanting to build a relationship with Gandalf in Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter or even Luke Skywalker.”Come on man, your not friends with Gan on facebook? TO ME, I see things in this world that relate to the ideal of a God in addition to a book.
"Also, I do good deeds because i see nothing good about doing bad deeds. I don't need a fear or hell or prison to keep me from doing bad because i don't want to do bad. When someone said, "Since you don't believe in God, what's going to stop you from killing people." My question is, why on earth would i want to kill? I may get angry and i may want to punch someone (Not that i would like to or should ever do so), but never kill. So why would you be good because of your God?"Well I’m not stating that our world’s definition of “good” is limited to only those who believe in God, I’m just stating that our world’s definition of “good” typically coincides with my moral beliefs, and as such, I do them because my morals tell me that they are the right thing to do.17. Reply #179 by ADD Homonym:
“I would hate to be ungrateful about being born into a world with cancer, death, syphilis, venomous spiders, wasps, cholera, continual work to grow food, warfare, psychopaths, fear of hell, ....”I would too if it meant that even after directly going against a God, that God was willing to forgive us and give us a chance to inherit the gifts of Heaven. =)
“However, I think you presuppose that your soul existed, prior to you being born, and got given some kind of great opportunity. The apparent reality is, that animals can reproduce in any numbers, and what they get out of life is not anything to be thankful for, besides to others of their species that pave the way for them. I'm thankful not to god, but to various scientists who have made my life easy.”I’m actually not sure how I feel about the whole soul existing before I was born, and what happens to animals, that’s something I’m confused about….
“"We" have 2 options:
1) Not be born at all (*phew*)
2) Face the almost certain hell, and a cryptic God, who enjoys lying to us.”I’m sorry you have such a pessimistic view on this… =/
“Option 1 appears to be something to be thankful for, but it's a fallacious option, because there is no "we", prior to being born. Therefore, "we" are all forced into this world.
Why aren't you unthankful for the things he hasn't blessed you with?”Because, just the belief that he has given me a chance to inherit Heaven is more than the blessing I feel I deserve….
“The answer is that you have been told not to be, on pain of eternal punishment. So, you have been forced into the world, and then forced to be thankful.”No, I think the above about sums it up, but thanks though. =)
“I'm thankful that I'm not suffering more than some others that I see, but why am I thankful to God for that? It's just lotto, and the illusion of "I". "I" did not deserve to be born into wealth, anymore than others deserved to be born into pain. The two groups simply exist, because of the way the world is structured. By implication, if I should be thankful for not being someone else, then they have the perfect right to not be thankful for being them. But, no, Christians say you should always be thankful to God, no matter what shithole you are born into. It's all relative. I'm sure there are aliens out there that live in perpetual orgasm. Gosh, I'm thankful not to be them.”Lol, the perpetual orgasm statement reminds me of a stand-up comedy act I saw on youtube….. Um, I don’t think it is our nature as Christians to be thankful to God to not be as worse off as someone else, I think rather it is more our nature to want to help those that are worse off than us…. 18. Reply #180 by Hatter23:
“Not even remotely contradictory.
Gnosticism is about knowledge of gods
Theism is about belief in them.
Agnosticism: I see no evidence, I have no knowledge.
Atheism: I do not believe.”Got it! =) 17. Reply #183 by Hatter23:
“that's Pascal's Wager, your protests non-withstanding”…….. Once again, I will state this as I have stated multiple times… I did not use the wager. It came up in an example that I was providing to someone, but it no means did I use the wager yet alone support it because I think it is stupid.
“It cannot be proved either way for: Elves, Psyhic powers, Homeopathy, Zues, Santa,The Bogieman, Hogwarts, demons, Ugabuga, Many tailed Fox spirits, hungry Chinese ghosts, Huitzilopochtli , bigfoot, and so forth.
Not being provable either way is the nature of all paranormal beings, but unless you are told about them, the default is non-belief.”Very good point in that last statement!! I didn’t even think of it like that, unfortunately, in the sense he meant, he has been told about them (doesn’t mean they exist), so then the default wouldn’t be non-belief?