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Offline pingnak

Re: Someone...
« Reply #145 on: June 06, 2012, 11:48:04 PM »
Ughhh come on.............. I am stating that the comparison between the affect of a space goat and the affect of a God is not a fair comparison given my post explaining how making a decision to believe the space ghost ideal affects the world as a whole, whereas making a decision to believe there is a God only affects you.

I was not saying that you should pretend to believe to be safe, that's idiotic......

Fine, the Space Goat will come and eat everybody's souls, one of these days.  But if you come and dance to a chorus line every week, it will give you candy, and leave you alone.

That's only as idiotic as saying some 'god' will punish/reward your 'soul' forever and ever.


Offline Astreja

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #146 on: June 06, 2012, 11:55:13 PM »
In practical terms, what's the difference between "making a decision to believe" and "pretending to believe"?  They may be different at the conscious level, but if the unconscious level of the mind retains its doubts there'll be cognitive dissonance at play.
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #147 on: June 07, 2012, 12:22:46 AM »
.. I have never had direct contact with God if that is what you mean, but I believe that I have had indirect contact with God (experiences, felt presence, stuff like that I guess).
Don't you think you should be talking and having true two way conversations with god? That's certainly how they go in the bible. None of the prophets wrote of "feelings," they wrote of speech with an audible god. Why would you assume a "warm tingly feeling" is sufficient for a powerful god's communication? 
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Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #148 on: June 07, 2012, 12:57:52 AM »
Fine, the Space Goat will come and eat everybody's souls, one of these days.  But if you come and dance to a chorus line every week, it will give you candy, and leave you alone.

That's only as idiotic as saying some 'god' will punish/reward your 'soul' forever and ever.

THANK YOU, TO ANYONE WHO CLAIMS ME TO BE REFERENCING PASCAL'S WAGER, PLEASE NOTE THAT I WAS TRYING TO MAKE A POINT TO PINGNAK, IF YOU WOULD READ ALL THE POSTS, AS HE HAS SURELY DONE AND NOW UNDERSTANDS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY, YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND THAT BY NO MEANS WAS I SUPPORTING THE IDEA OF PASCAL'S WAGER.

now, once again, this comparison you have made attempts to belittle my belief in similar ways that your one before does, I really don't want to waste my time proving to you how that is so, if it really bothers you, feel free to PM me, and once our conversation is completed, I will be more than happy to share it on here so everyone can see what we talked about.  I would like to get back on topic to where I was.
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Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #149 on: June 07, 2012, 01:06:31 AM »
It might seem that way to you, but you must appreciate that I was born & raised in a very christian home, and lived it until the age of about 25.  Bible studies, youth groups, prayer meetings, summer camp, witnessing - you name it, I was there.  I have examined the belief system which my parents inculcated into my young, defenseless mind as a child; examined them more closely than you can comprehend.  It is only when you care more about what is true, than what is familiar or comforting, and combined with intellectual honesty that will result in a person jettisoning the false beliefs indoctrinated from childhood.

You were not reasoned into your beliefs, therefore it is very difficult to reason you out of them.

My beliefs were not indoctrinated into me at childhood, I simply went to church.  When I was of the age to consciously think for myself, I began to question things.  I will admit that I have not spent my entire time researching this topic, as I have been distracted by other things in my life, but I am glad to get to this now and go through it.

I do care about what is true, its not a matter of what is familiar and comforting for me, I am in pursuit of the truth as well, and along my way, I have yet to encounter anything that can shake my belief in God. 

A few things that I would like to re-introduce for those of you just joining in on this, I think I have a more clear cut definition of my beliefs now:

1. My belief in God comes before my belief in christianity (i.e. there are still a lot of things I have to learn about christianity, and it might come to be that there are things I disagree with the christian religion, that is why I want to make this clear).

2. I will quote this from a PM between me and Parking Places:
I am living for this current life, and for a future after this current life.  In my beliefs, making God proud comes before making it to Heaven.  I do not have a relationship with God because I want to go to Heaven, I have a relationship with God because I am thankful for everything he has blessed me with. Because of this thankfulness, I want to help others and make a positive impact on others, and give them a little insight to what I believe, not try to convert them, but just show them how I feel about things in the hopes that I might help them discover what they believe. 
I want to leave this world knowing that I did everything I can to make it a better place...

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #150 on: June 07, 2012, 01:19:43 AM »
My beliefs were not indoctrinated into me at childhood, I simply went to church.

I think you're grossly underestimating the influence going to church had on you.


Quote
In my beliefs, making God proud comes before making it to Heaven.

"The idea of god was not a lie but a device of the unconscious which needed to be decoded by psychology. A personal god was nothing more than an exalted father-figure.  Desire for such a deity sprang from infantile yearnings for a powerful, protective father; for justice and fairness and for life to go on forever. God is simply a projection of these desires, feared and worshipped by human beings out of an abiding sense of helplessness. Religion belonged to the infancy of the human race; it had been a necessary stage in the transition from childhood to maturity. It had promoted ethical values which were essential to society. Now that humanity had come of age, however, it should be left behind."  (Sigmund Freud)
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Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #151 on: June 07, 2012, 01:53:01 AM »
I think you're grossly underestimating the influence going to church had on you.

Well, I don't think so, being that I am only 20 years of age and already question the motives of the previous churches I have attended?  I mean, if by what you said, I am in my religion because it was comfortable for me as a little chap, then why was it that even as a toddler I already began to question the hypocritical people participating in the ministry?

"The idea of god was not a lie but a device of the unconscious which needed to be decoded by psychology. A personal god was nothing more than an exalted father-figure.  Desire for such a deity sprang from infantile yearnings for a powerful, protective father; for justice and fairness and for life to go on forever. God is simply a projection of these desires, feared and worshipped by human beings out of an abiding sense of helplessness. Religion belonged to the infancy of the human race; it had been a necessary stage in the transition from childhood to maturity. It had promoted ethical values which were essential to society. Now that humanity had come of age, however, it should be left behind."  (Sigmund Freud)

It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in
philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion.
~ Francis Bacon

I can go around quoting other people too, the difference between your quote and mine: nothing. They are both a matter of opinion. 

The difference between the outcome of the two quotes: This is an overwhelmingly atheist forum, so I will be the one receiving attack on the quote.
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Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #152 on: June 07, 2012, 01:55:09 AM »

I have examined the belief system which my parents inculcated into my young, defenseless mind as a child more closely than you can comprehend. 

Careful what claims you make about a person that you know little to nothing about...
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #153 on: June 07, 2012, 01:56:23 AM »
We always underestimate the effect our culture has on us.  We take a ton of stuff for granted.

For example, you used Pascal's Wager earlier.  Why do you take a heaven/hell dichotomy based on belief for granted?
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Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #154 on: June 07, 2012, 02:07:15 AM »
We always underestimate the effect our culture has on us.  We take a ton of stuff for granted.

For example, you used Pascal's Wager earlier.  Why do you take a heaven/hell dichotomy based on belief for granted?

........................................... re-read my older posts, and you will see that I did not use pascal's wager.

And what do you mean I take it for granted?
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #155 on: June 07, 2012, 02:12:06 AM »
.. I have never had direct contact with God if that is what you mean, but I believe that I have had indirect contact with God (experiences, felt presence, stuff like that I guess).
Don't you think you should be talking and having true two way conversations with god? That's certainly how they go in the bible. None of the prophets wrote of "feelings," they wrote of speech with an audible god. Why would you assume a "warm tingly feeling" is sufficient for a powerful god's communication?

You stated that you have a relationship with god. Is it a normal relationship or the creepy kind that a phycho has with a photo of a girl he admires but who doesn't know he exists?
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #156 on: June 07, 2012, 02:20:35 AM »

Don't you think you should be talking and having true two way conversations with god? That's certainly how they go in the bible. None of the prophets wrote of "feelings," they wrote of speech with an audible god. Why would you assume a "warm tingly feeling" is sufficient for a powerful god's communication?

You stated that you have a relationship with god. Is it a normal relationship or the creepy kind that a phycho has with a photo of a girl he admires but who doesn't know he exists?

hahahahah I like that comparison...

I forgot to respond to that previous post, ummm, well as I stated before, I haven't really done a lot of praying unfortunately in my lifetime, and I would assume that is one of the forms of contact referenced in the Bible.  You have to understand that it is indeed possible that by two way conversation, they meant what some of you would consider that voice inside your head....  My relationship with God is that of a normal one...

Are you trying to say that I am the psycho in the other side? that would make no sense, I could only think that you mean I am the admired girl who does not know the psycho exists.... Neither side really makes much sense.....
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Offline Dynamic

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #157 on: June 07, 2012, 02:23:39 AM »
What you have failed to do however is give any evidence to back up your claims.

Has anyone on this forum given evidence:
Atheists: Yes
Christians: No

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

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Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #158 on: June 07, 2012, 02:26:12 AM »
What you have failed to do however is give any evidence to back up your claims.

Has anyone on this forum given evidence:
Atheists: Yes
Christians: No

Hi

Can you tell me what claims in this argument that are not subject to belief and opinion either side has made that is direct evidence disproving either side?
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Offline Dynamic

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #159 on: June 07, 2012, 02:36:11 AM »
What you have failed to do however is give any evidence to back up your claims.

Has anyone on this forum given evidence:
Atheists: Yes
Christians: No

Hi

Can you tell me what claims in this argument that are not subject to belief and opinion either side has made that is direct evidence disproving either side?

Hello ^-^

I never said that it was "disproving" I was simply saying that the atheist side has provided more evidence for their claim, while you have provided little to none.


I would ask you politely to provide me all the evidence for the bible that you can, and be proven. Now, if you ask for atheists evidence, I'm sure the much more smarter people have already given enough in the previous posts.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 02:46:18 AM by Dynamic »
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

If you want to talk through skype, message me.

Offline rickymooston

Re: Someone...
« Reply #160 on: June 07, 2012, 03:58:24 AM »
  The Academy of Science is not a "club".

Actually, in a loose sense it is.

In order to get credentials or to publish your work you are evaluating by other certified members from certified institutions.
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline EV

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #161 on: June 07, 2012, 04:05:06 AM »
lol just saying, I feel bad for anyone who comes into this thread late, because all of these posts have occured in about a day's time, it would be really hard to catch up on everything that is going on...... =P

You don't know the half of it my friend. I was expecting some nice talk about biblical contradictions, and it's evolved into "ripping apart the theist!"

But really, I admire your spirit, and your withstanding against this grilling, you did use Pascal's Wager, and what about those contradictions? Do you think they aren't true?

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,22745.0.html
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Offline rickymooston

Re: Someone...
« Reply #162 on: June 07, 2012, 04:08:59 AM »
Okay then, I know its hard to speak for everyone in this forum that does not believe in God, but could you guys speak on behalf of them that for most, the biggest reason for not believing in a God is because of lack of evidence?

Yes and combine that with anlot of evidence ppl make up suprrnatural claims.
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #163 on: June 07, 2012, 04:53:47 AM »
........................................... re-read my older posts, and you will see that I did not use pascal's wager.

Sloppy reading on my part; I apologize.  You did not use the wager, you merely cited it.  Most arguments against the wager are irrelevant to my point anyway; I was only focusing in on one aspect...

And what do you mean I take it for granted?

You take for granted that a god's retribution would be felt in the afterlife, and that it would come from non-belief rather than from belief.  I realize those are your beliefs, but you are not talking to people who share your beliefs - which is something you knew.  So it makes no sense to make those assumptions in your post.  Yet you made them.  Why?  Because they're cultural.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #164 on: June 07, 2012, 06:03:57 AM »
.....like I have stated, I have not read the bible cover to cover.  I have also made it clear that I myself question the validity of the bible at times because I believe it could have been subject to change over the years of its existence.....

Thank you everyone for pointing out to me my lack of understanding of the bible, this will really be a nice kick in the butt for me to go through it and learn for myself...   Just know that I consider myself a christian because what I know so far about the God I believe in agrees with my belief in christianity.....

Hmmm.

Option 1.  WZR goes carefully through the Bible, and discovers that - oh joy! - his current understanding of god is completely correct.
Option 2: WZR goes carefully through the Bible, and discovers that what he currently "knows" about his god is wrong, and he becomes an atheist.

Funny thing - I'm betting on option 1.....
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline relativetruth

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #165 on: June 07, 2012, 07:30:40 AM »
Wez,

Although I am late to this thread I have gone thru even single post.

When the discussion got to the topic of 'why bad things happen' or the 'existence of evil' you seem to be saying that when 'things go wrong' it is down to human mismanagement.
So war, poverty, etc are human 'creations'.

Can you explain why, in your view, that earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, killer infectious diseases , etc happen which seem to indiscriminately kill millions of innocent humans of all ages regardless of their own beliefs?

What is the point that an ALL-good and ALL-powerfull god is making with this message?

 
God(s) exist and are imaginary

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #166 on: June 07, 2012, 09:28:08 AM »
Well, I don't think so, being that I am only 20 years of age and already question the motives of the previous churches I have attended?  I mean, if by what you said, I am in my religion because it was comfortable for me as a little chap, then why was it that even as a toddler I already began to question the hypocritical people participating in the ministry?

It's one thing to question the hypocrisy of some people within your church, that's easy; but what you ought to consider is that of the thousands of religions and gods man has invented, the one you generally adhere to is the one introduced to your developing & influential young mind.

It is a remarkable coincidence that almost everyone has the same religion as their parents and it always just so happens they’re the right religion.  (Richard Dawkins)


Quote
I can go around quoting other people too, the difference between your quote and mine: nothing. They are both a matter of opinion. 

This statement reveals just how impenetrable your mind has become on this matter.  I offer (and like) these quotes because I have the humility to appreciate and consider the insight that another mind has had in forming them.  They offer a fresh insight, which, is open to consideration and musing, and can be appreciated or dismissed on their own merits (as opposed to simply accepting the claimed authoritative dogma from the pulpit or bible).  You have said this "Just a matter of opinion" line a few times already, which displays that you're not super interested in changing your mind.  But, I guess the upside of being stubborn is that you'll always know what you'll be thinking tomorrow.

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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #167 on: June 07, 2012, 10:04:57 AM »
You are right, we cannot snap our fingers and have someone be healed, if it were that easy, we would take it for granted. Its easy to notice that you have to work hard in life to get things done, at least that is what I have noticed in my own.

The point was that if God were real, he doesn't have to work for things.  He just thinks them and they can happen.  Humans are different from god so the comparison is horrible.  You're not comparing apples to apples, you are comparing apples to the space shuttle. 

Why does it matter whether or not we would take supernatural healings for granted?  Would they be a good thing or not?  If your mother had cancer and God came down and personally healed it, what would you think? 

By end it, do you possibly mean finally cutting that child off from his/her suffering and bring that child up his/her rightful place in Heaven?

No.  I mean actually showing some evidence of ending it that we can verify in some way shape or form.  You see, this is your theological position on the matter.  It's your excuse.  The whole heaven and hell thing is not proven at all.  Not in the least.  There is no way to verify anything about it.  This is what you may believe to be true, but that has no bearing on whether or not it is. 

And if a single human being had that power, then yes, I would criticize him, because I believe that there are certain things in this world that God would like us as humans to work out, something we rarely do...

Again, this is theology, not factual information.  This is something that you've been told by other people, or maybe even made up yourself, probably a long time ago, to square the fact that suffering exists on a massive scale, with the proposition that there is a benevolent sky person watching over you at all times.  You can't prove it, but you say it as if it makes a difference.   

Can you deny the possibility that the reason suffering exists is because we are a fragile species on an often dangerous planet and we try to eek out an existence to the best of our ability; sometimes failing in the process? 



Tell me what good things have happened to you in this world without the effort of you or someone else to make that good thing happen?

You mean that good things in this world happen because we humans make them happen?  And the bad things happen because we don't do enough to stop them?  That sounds like something I would say, and not something you would say.  That sounds an awful lot like God plays no role in anything.  I'd have to agree with you.

You see, if as a human race, if we worked together, we could all enjoy peace and good, but because we are humans, that does not happen.  If everyone who had the ability to help came together to help all the starving children around the world and succeeded, wouldn't that be a good thing? 

Sure.  But if God exists, he has the power to do that too.  Wouldn't it be great if God came down and fixed starvation as well?  The fact that he does not, cries out for an explanation.  The whole 'they'll be rewarded in heaven' is one very unprovable explanation.  The other is that God is neutral in temperament regarding man, or that there is no such thing as God.  After all, if there was no God, none of the starving children in the world would be fed by God, right?     

I think you would be surprised to think about it for a while and realize that good things come at a cost, usually some sort of effort and work.

I'm an atheist Wez.  I've known that a long time.  Nothing comes from God.  It all comes from us.  You're not helping your point here I don't think. 

I didn't state he picks and chooses, I stated that there might be situations in this universe involving all of us where he is preventing or making certain things happen....

Do you have any proof that this is the case?  If not, please tell me why should I consider it?

I do believe that God gives everyone a chance, and gives everyone some help, whether indirectly (such as giving each of us the ability to work together and help out, or through ways that we don't even notice), or directly (i.e. my dad's friend that was randomly cured of full body arthritis and cancer). 

My grandmother died of cancer.  My wife's mother died from cancer.  My mother survived it because doctors chopped off both her breasts.  You are going to tell me that your dad's friend was healed of his cancer and arthritis by God but he couldn't lift a finger to help my grandmother or my wife's mother, or to prevent my own mother from losing her breasts?  Is that who you want to worship? 

You know, you talk a good game about wanting to help everyone out, but if you follow your God's example, the real world evidence seems to show that God (if he exists) picks and chooses who to heal, and does so in a way that is unable to be differentiated from normal healing processes. 

If you believed that God existed, but it really didn't, wouldn't God's healing look a whole lot like that? 

I don't know what the true meaning is, that is why I called it my belief. 

But you can't say the church has strayed from its true meaning if you don't know what that true meaning is, can you? 


I don't believe a religion should be force fed to anyone. I believe it should be up to each and every person to determine for themselves.  There is nothing wrong with someone offering their beliefs to someone else just so they know, but it should not be forced upon the other person. 

The bible disagrees with you. 

This will be my basis for this topic.  Now, that being said, one of the biggest detriments that religion plays in our society is problems it causes, that I would like to associate with those who try to force their religion upon others. 

But the resource they point to, to try and force their religion on others is the same bible as you use. 

I am more than okay than that, like I have stated, I would just like to offer my point of view on things.

That's fine.  Point of view noted.  Now, examine whether or not there are solid reasons to think that your point of view is way off base.  That's the point of debating it. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #168 on: June 07, 2012, 10:09:17 AM »
How did God in the OT,go from being a god in a pantheon of gods(god in OT had a father) to being the only god? I think this is where your story gets fucked up....this particular god chose a particular people.....he was not the only god,just a god.  Suddenly the story changes and he is the only god,care to explain how this happened?

Well, like I've stated a few times, I have a lot of research of the bible to conduct for myself, so I cannot even attempt to handle this question right now.....  All I can say, which I stated earlier, is that my belief in God comes before my belief in christianity, if that makes sense =D
So belief without research,,,,how fitting,take what you have been spoon fed and believe it......when you "start" doing this research on the load of shit you have been fed get back to me
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Offline Timtheskeptic

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #169 on: June 07, 2012, 10:10:58 AM »

Another little thing about my belief, is that I don't who God is, what God looks like, I just know that its God.

That sounded a bit like, "I don't know why my daddy is, i don't even know what he looks like, but i know that This man is my daddy!"
Me:What are you looking at Eminem?
Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #170 on: June 07, 2012, 10:12:08 AM »
I am illustrating to you that your god is either callous and cruel as he watches such horrific events with folded arms, or he imaginary.  You are dodging the obvious.

And I am illustrating to you that you are a hypocrite in making that claim.
FUCKING RETARDED........he looks out for you or his favourite sports star that month but cant be bothered to end the torment of the starving....typical hypocrite Christian thinking
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #171 on: June 07, 2012, 10:15:13 AM »
I am illustrating to you that your god is either callous and cruel as he watches such horrific events with folded arms, or he imaginary.  You are dodging the obvious.

And I am illustrating to you that you are a hypocrite in making that claim.
FUCKING RETARDED........he looks out for you or his favourite sports star that month but cant be bothered to end the torment of the starving....typical hypocrite Christian thinking

12 Monkeys, that's a bit harsh.  Please try to tone it down a bit in the future.  Thanks.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Timtheskeptic

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #172 on: June 07, 2012, 10:19:33 AM »

I really don't like to debate about the validity of the bible, because no one ever wins..... Interpretation of the bible is up to each individual person reading it, its really hard to settle on one single interpretation....

You know why that is right? It's rather strange isn't it? A god, from your bible that is, has humans write stuff down for thousands of years and yet people kept changing it over and over to fit to what they want the bible to say. Doesn't that sound odd to you?


Me:What are you looking at Eminem?
Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #173 on: June 07, 2012, 10:20:54 AM »
I am illustrating to you that your god is either callous and cruel as he watches such horrific events with folded arms, or he imaginary.  You are dodging the obvious.

And I am illustrating to you that you are a hypocrite in making that claim.
FUCKING RETARDED........he looks out for you or his favourite sports star that month but cant be bothered to end the torment of the starving....typical hypocrite Christian thinking

12 Monkeys, that's a bit harsh.  Please try to tone it down a bit in the future.  Thanks.
will do
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)