Author Topic: Someone...  (Read 8138 times)

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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #116 on: June 06, 2012, 08:17:35 PM »
What the heck?!?  I just made a post (#109) and it is under WeZzZzRURRs name.


???

It says you edited it, did you accidently Mod one of his posts when you wrote that?

Perhaps, by mistake.  First time that's ever happened!

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Offline Nick

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #117 on: June 06, 2012, 08:20:50 PM »
I think they merged into one person.  Man, the confusion that must cause.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #118 on: June 06, 2012, 08:25:18 PM »
To continue - it doesn't matter if any poster here isn't over there now feeding these children with whatever dollars they could bring, before they themselves became broke.  It doesn't matter (for this argument called 'The Problem of Evil') because any - any - omnimax god who (due to being all powerful, as the christians such as yourself believe) doesn't make sure this child got fed is either Evil, or not all powerful.  It doesn't matter because an all knowing god would know that not everyone can help this girl, and so why didn't He (capitalized on purpose) help her?  Would this be the action of an all loving, parent-like god, to allow this girl (as well as 10's of thousands like her, every fracking month, who die never knowing a full stomach).

The importance of money has become to important to this world......  Everyone has the ability to help in some way, some people put themselves in harder positions to be able to help out, but there is always a way to help out.  People are blind to the thought of everyone going and helping, because quite frankly, it would not be convenient for us to do so, but do you think its anywhere close to convenient for this little girl to starve to death?  Think about how many people live in this world holding the ability to help in situations like this.  If you think about it, the numbers of people who could help probably overwhelms the number of people in need of true help...  As I have already stated, God gave us the ability to help, but we spit in his face, and then have the guts to criticize him for not helping (which by the way, just a thought, just imagine for a second that there is a God in this world, and then think about the ideal that he might already be helping out in many ways that we can't even comprehend, and then imagine how terrible, if this world even continued to exist, which I am inclined to believe it wouldn't, imagine how terrible this world would be in the absence of God?)  I don't know about you guys, but if I were to put myself in God's shoes (provided he wears shoes =D), I would be pretty damn pissed off at all of us for not putting in the effort we should be because our convenient lives have become oh so important to us.......

That picture, I hope, gets stuck in your mind (like it has mine for years), and eventually sinks in.  Many bad things happen in the world that humans could never fix, and aren't the least bit to blame for - earthquakes, floods, attack by animals, locusts eating their crops so many starve, etc) - the answer you tried to use doesn't work - it doesn't explain why this god of yours, so full of allgoodness, so full of power, so full of knowing all from the beginning of time to the end - why He allows this to occur?

Do we not have the ability to protect ourselves from all of these things? Whether we choose to do it is the actual question...  And attack by animals, it is unfortunate that they are living creatures to and need to survive as well, even though I wouldn't doubt that you have enjoyed plenty of meats harvested by animals.

If it did, that child wouldn't have spent it's entire short life in agony to die in some muddy field, food for the vultures.  Doesn't matter if heaven exists - what point could god have to punish this child so, just to send it to heaven afterward?  Why have it born at all?  Why not send it's soul (not that I believe in one mind you) straight to heaven?  What lesson could it possibly learn that would be worth the pain?  And the (also typical) answer 'my god works in mysterious ways' doesn't help either, that boils down to the same choices 1-3 above.

The child exists because two people (or once again 1 jerkoff) decided to neglect the suffering in which they (or him or her) would bring upon their offspring by gaining self pleasure.  we have more than enough to do something about this, yet we don't...... I would then believe that that child goes to Heaven, a great prize compared to the other option, and we are then held accountable for our refusal to go out of the way of our convenient lives.
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Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #119 on: June 06, 2012, 08:26:17 PM »
I think they merged into one person.  Man, the confusion that must cause.

LOL
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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #120 on: June 06, 2012, 08:30:13 PM »
The importance of money has become to important to this world......  Everyone has the ability to help in some way, some people put themselves in harder positions to be able to help out, but there is always a way to help out.  People are blind to the thought of everyone going and helping, because quite frankly, it would not be convenient for us to do so, but do you think its anywhere close to convenient for this little girl to starve to death?  Think about how many people live in this world holding the ability to help in situations like this.  If you think about it, the numbers of people who could help probably overwhelms the number of people in need of true help...  As I have already stated, God gave us the ability to help, but we spit in his face, and then have the guts to criticize him for not helping (which by the way, just a thought, just imagine for a second that there is a God in this world, and then think about the ideal that he might already be helping out in many ways that we can't even comprehend, and then imagine how terrible, if this world even continued to exist, which I am inclined to believe it wouldn't, imagine how terrible this world would be in the absence of God?)  I don't know about you guys, but if I were to put myself in God's shoes (provided he wears shoes =D), I would be pretty damn pissed off at all of us for not putting in the effort we should be because our convenient lives have become oh so important to us.

You are making excuses and rationalizations. Your god is imaginary.
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Offline pingnak

Re: Someone...
« Reply #121 on: June 06, 2012, 08:33:28 PM »
Answer me this, by lobbying congress for space weapons to drive off the giant space goat, you are imposing a huge burden on a lot of people.....

By me simply asking you to believe that there is a God, what kind of burden am I imposing on you?

What?  And lobbying congress to change birth control laws, etc. isn't a burden?  A woman who doesn't want to carry her rapist's child to term might disagree with you.

And those 'faith based initiatives', spending my tax money on church activities?

What about all those unfortunate gays who are having their civil rights crushed by your fellow christians' bootheels?

And what about those useless morons who knock on everyone's doors with tracts and their 'good news'?  They aren't a bother to you?

Ever hear of TITHING?  What's the difference between sacrificing a bunch of your income to a church that you believe your very soul is being protected by, and TAXES?  Or a 'protection' scam, for that matter.

And believing that EVERYONE must go to church?  My sundays are a sacred day of sleeping in, not for getting dressed up, driving, fighting my way into a church parking lot, spending hours listening to boring nonsense, and then reversing the steps to get out of there.

If your kind had your way, everyone would have to have a receipt for church attendance and tithing, or they would face trial and execution.  You know, the buybull demands death for the apostate, and death to anyone who believes in the wrong gods. 
Deuteronomy 17:3-5
Deuteronomy 13: 6-9

People who want the bible to rule everyone's lives clearly haven't read it.

Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #122 on: June 06, 2012, 08:41:34 PM »
What?  And lobbying congress to change birth control laws, etc. isn't a burden?  A woman who doesn't want to carry her rapist's child to term might disagree with you.

And those 'faith based initiatives', spending my tax money on church activities?

What about all those unfortunate gays who are having their civil rights crushed by your fellow christians' bootheels?

And what about those useless morons who knock on everyone's doors with tracts and their 'good news'?  They aren't a bother to you?

Ever hear of TITHING?  What's the difference between sacrificing a bunch of your income to a church that you believe your very soul is being protected by, and TAXES?  Or a 'protection' scam, for that matter.

And believing that EVERYONE must go to church?  My sundays are a sacred day of sleeping in, not for getting dressed up, driving, fighting my way into a church parking lot, spending hours listening to boring nonsense, and then reversing the steps to get out of there.

If your kind had your way, everyone would have to have a receipt for church attendance and tithing, or they would face trial and execution.  You know, the buybull demands death for the apostate, and death to anyone who believes in the wrong gods. 
Deuteronomy 17:3-5
Deuteronomy 13: 6-9

People who want the bible to rule everyone's lives clearly haven't read it.

Notice that in my statement I asked you how it would burden you to believe in "a God".......  In stating this, I did not tie it to any specific religion, just specifically that there is a God.... Now, to touch on some of those things you state, I don't believe that everyone must go to church.... Quite frankly, I feel that present day churches have slipped away from their true meanings... Everything is all about now, its ridiculous..... I would assume just set up your own home ministry with close friends and family....  So no, if I had it my way, tickets wouldn't mean anything....  Believe it or not, morons in all kinds of shapes and forms, in your belief, in my belief, and all they do is make that belief look bad..... By saying that I believe in a God, I do not state that I support what everyone else who claims they believe in the same thing do, because, quite frankly, there are many hypocrites in every religion, and it is a terrible thing.....  I simply wanted you to answer to me, what imposes more of a burden, lobbying congress for the space weapons, or simply believing that there is a God?


It is not my fault that idiotic people take religion to a whole other extremity, basically away from everything the religion was in the first place.... And yes, if religion were not present in this world, idiotic people would still find another way to be idiotic, they thrive on it.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 08:44:41 PM by WeZzZzRURR »
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Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #123 on: June 06, 2012, 08:45:04 PM »
You are making excuses and rationalizations. Your god is imaginary.

Please elaborate.
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Offline Avatar Of Belial

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #124 on: June 06, 2012, 08:58:41 PM »
Notice that in my statement I asked you how it would burden you to believe in "a God".......

Why stop at one? If we're not burdened by believing in just "a God", then what's the harm in a nice big pantheon?

On the other hand, what's the value of believing in any of them?
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Re: Someone...
« Reply #125 on: June 06, 2012, 09:24:22 PM »
....I simply wanted you to answer to me, what imposes more of a burden, lobbying congress for the space weapons, or simply believing that there is a God?...

Maybe I missed something, but you can't just decide to believe in something. Burden or not, I can't just snap my fingers and believe there's a fairy living in my rhodedendron. Likewise, I cannot snap my fingers and believe in a god. So I don't understand what burdens have to do with anything.
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Offline Poseidon

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #126 on: June 06, 2012, 09:33:06 PM »
Weez. You are to take a test about your fluid mechanics studies. That would imply that you are on a career course in engineering or a similar discipline. Within your course of study of fluid statics and dynamics you will have become friends with the likes of Boyle, Reynolds, Bernouli, Froude and others. All men of rigorous scientific exploration that led to discovery. If you continue in these courses you will be continuously exposed to the scientific method. A good scientist demands evidence in order to validate any hypothesis that he may embrace. Exposure to these methods will almost surely give you pause for contemplation about the existence of any supernatural force or being.

If you stay with us, I will come back with some different reasons for my own absence of spiritual belief. It's about witches and such.
 
Meanwhile, I wish you well on the exam.

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #127 on: June 06, 2012, 09:35:39 PM »
Notice that in my statement I asked you how it would burden you to believe in "a God".......

I know you didn't ask this of me, but I thought I'd respond to the question.

Lets see. I'd have to lie to myself, make stuff up, pretend a bunch of stuff is true and hope I hadn't developed a mental illness . All things I am not burdened with right now.

All for no good reason.

So that is how...
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #128 on: June 06, 2012, 09:58:00 PM »
The importance of money has become to important to this world......  Everyone has the ability to help in some way, some people put themselves in harder positions to be able to help out, but there is always a way to help out.  People are blind to the thought of everyone going and helping, because quite frankly, it would not be convenient for us to do so, but do you think its anywhere close to convenient for this little girl to starve to death?  Think about how many people live in this world holding the ability to help in situations like this.  If you think about it, the numbers of people who could help probably overwhelms the number of people in need of true help...  As I have already stated, God gave us the ability to help, but we spit in his face, and then have the guts to criticize him for not helping (which by the way, just a thought, just imagine for a second that there is a God in this world, and then think about the ideal that he might already be helping out in many ways that we can't even comprehend, and then imagine how terrible, if this world even continued to exist, which I am inclined to believe it wouldn't, imagine how terrible this world would be in the absence of God?)  I don't know about you guys, but if I were to put myself in God's shoes (provided he wears shoes =D), I would be pretty damn pissed off at all of us for not putting in the effort we should be because our convenient lives have become oh so important to us.......

Wez, I think you are skirting around this issue without taking the time to think this through. 

What you are arguing is that people have the ability to help, and they don't.  For many people, this is true.  Lots of people could help others and they don't.  The difference, however, is that humans are not all powerful beings.  We do not have the ability to snap our fingers and end the suffering of that child instantly.  So the analogy is a poor one.  You can not compare the actions of humankind, with all its imperfections and limitations, to the actions of God as if they were on the same level.  They're just not.  It's almost as if you forget that God can (purportedly) do ANYTHING He wants.  Show me a human that can do that and perhaps your analogy is more fitting.   

Now, if a human being had the power to end all of that suffering with a single thought, and decided NOT to use it, what would you think of them?  I would dare say your criticism would be well deserved if that were the case.  This is what you need to open your eyes to.  God (if it exists) is the super powerful human with the ability to fix that child, and chooses to do nothing.  What you have to then realize is that God WANTS that child to suffer.  If He didn't, then He would end it.  That's the bottom line and you can't escape it. 

But the other issue that comes up is when you argue that it is humans who have the power to fix things.  Ironically, I doubt anyone here would disagree with you.  After all, atheists understand suffering to be a natural thing and that humans can play a role in it.  The other side of this, however, is that if suffering is a natural thing, then why couldn't the opposite be completely natural as well?  Why couldn't all the good things that happen in the world be completely natural as well?  Since this world is full of suffering and goodness alike, if you were being honest with yourself here... what sort of God would that point to?  Could it not simply be that good and bad are matters of perception, and that there is no need to suppose that a god exists to explain either side?   

Also, with regard to your hypothetical notion that God helps us 'behind the scenes' so to speak and does things that we don't even know about...  If that is the case, then what that means is that God has the ability to help everyone, but instead uses his power to help those he picks and chooses, while allowing suffering on a massive scale for others.  Is that a quality you would worship?  To use an analogy... imagine I had a pill that cured cancer in every patient who took it; and then imagine your mother getting cancer and me telling you to piss off when you ask me for a pill.  A God that has the ability to help all, but picks and chooses to help some and let others suffer horribly, is not worthy of worship.  It's disgusting. 

Notice that in my statement I asked you how it would burden you to believe in "a God"

The notion that I have an eternal cosmic dictator looking down at me at all time, judging everything I do (including what I think), who's verdict is unquestionable, and who's punishment is endless, is a burden. 

I don't believe that everyone must go to church.... Quite frankly, I feel that present day churches have slipped away from their true meanings.

A. How do you know what the 'true meaning' of the church should be?  Who put you in charge?

B. Don't you mean the meaning you think they should have?  Do you really believe that you, yourself, have deciphered what the true meanings of the churches should be, and that all the millions of churches out there get it wrong. 

.. Everything is all about now, its ridiculous.

It's always been ridiculous.  In fact, it's been way worse than it is now.  Think 'dark ages'. 

.... I would assume just set up your own home ministry with close friends and family....

 By saying that I believe in a God, I do not state that I support what everyone else who claims they believe in the same thing do, because, quite frankly, there are many hypocrites in every religion, and it is a terrible thing..

If you kept religion private, there would be no problem.  But so few of you do.  It infects society everywhere, which is why we fight it.  But just look at yourself... you sit here and rail against organized religion, yet at the same time, you think your beliefs and the way YOU do things is not somehow a problem.  Don't you realize that the respect you want for your beliefs is the same respect that all religions expect for theirs?  You're religious beliefs protect the very beliefs you rail against.   

It is not my fault that idiotic people take religion to a whole other extremity, basically away from everything the religion was in the first place.... And yes, if religion were not present in this world, idiotic people would still find another way to be idiotic, they thrive on it.

This seems to say that you know what religion was in the first place.  Do you really claim to know that?  I'd like to know what sources you use to come up with what religion was in the first place.  Stick with Christianity if you want, just to make it easier.  Perhaps you don't know as much about this topic as you should.  Be aware, you're in a forum FULL of people who probably know a lot more about that than you do. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #129 on: June 06, 2012, 10:16:03 PM »
You make the positive assertion that there is a god - YOURS.

I merely rest with the default - No there isn't.  I should have thought the examples would be sufficient.

You say, "There's a giant space goat, it's going to eat the planet!"
Should I be lobbying congress for space weapons to drive it off?

You say, "God's gonna punish you for not believing!"
Why should I take this claim any more seriously?

Let me just go back to the root of this example provided by pingnak before this goes off in another direction....

This argument is solely about the comparison of a giant space goat (lol), and God.....  Pingnak attempted to relate the two, in order to belittle my claim.....  What I am trying to prove in this argument, is not that you should believe in God because the burden is less than believing the space goat ideal (again lol), its just that in the way he described it, its not a fair comparison.

The implication of the claim of a giant space goat, and it coming to attack the world, makes someone make a decision: Ignore the claim as ignorance, which could possibly result in the ruining of the world, or take action upon the claim in order to save the world.

Now, the implication of the claim of a God (or Gods), and not believing in the supposed God sends you to eternal suffering in the afterlife, makes someone again make a decision: Ignore the claim as ignorance, which could possibly result in the ruining of yourself as an individual in the afterlife, or take action upon the claim in order to save yourself in the afterlife.

This is what I was trying to show, not argue that because the burden is less for believing in a God, you should believe in a God.

In making the claim of the giant space goat, you are making a choice which could affect the world in its present condition.

In making the claim of a God, you are making a choice which could only affect you in the afterlife.

And I would have to say that I disagree with you believing that the default is to believe that there is no God....  As has already been stated on here, it cannot be proved either way that there is or isn't a God, so then the likely default would then be to believe that there could be a God, but you also believe that there could not be a God, a gray area between the two.
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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #130 on: June 06, 2012, 10:18:04 PM »
Ding ding ding - Pascal's Wager once again.
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Offline pingnak

Re: Someone...
« Reply #131 on: June 06, 2012, 10:20:12 PM »
Pascal's Wager: Pretend to believe, just to be safe, 'cuz god's too stupid to know the difference.

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #132 on: June 06, 2012, 10:32:52 PM »
Now, the implication of the claim of a God (or Gods), and not believing in the supposed God sends you to eternal suffering in the afterlife, makes someone again make a decision: Ignore the claim as ignorance, which could possibly result in the ruining of yourself as an individual in the afterlife, or take action upon the claim in order to save yourself in the afterlife.

I was once asked why I don't own a gun for protection. I replied that I'd rather get shot and killed once than spend my whole life being afraid I was going to be shot and then have it never happen.

And I refuse to ruin this life on the off-chance that certain religiously inspired behavioral modifications might make an alleged afterlife a bit more tolerable.

A god that loves me but who will condemn me to an eternity of suffering if I don't comply with his demands, awkwardly passed down by ancient sheepherders and based on heresay isn't very good at anything. Said god doesn't have any idea what love is, his incompetence at getting his message out indicates that he can't omnip his way out of a wet paper bag and the fact that his followers kill each other over little variations of his "truth" indicates all involved are doing it wrong.

I would love for there to be an afterlife. Unless it is a religious one. In which case it will suck no matter which direction I go.

You are asking me to believe in pathetic personal demons. I'd rather own a gun.
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #133 on: June 06, 2012, 10:37:24 PM »
As has already been stated on here, it cannot be proved either way that there is or isn't a God

Be careful here.  There's a subtle difference.  You can't prove a negative.  (I.E. can you prove Zeus is not real?).  But you CAN prove something DOES exist.  The fact that there is no reliable evidence for God is not proof that God does not exist in and of itself, but it's just more ammunition against the God theory. 

, so then the likely default would then be to believe that there could be a God, but you also believe that there could not be a God, a gray area between the two.

Yes and no.  The default is to accept that there COULD be a God (given a proper definition).  But believing that there is, is very different from accepting that it could be true.  There COULD be a giant space goat, but believing there is in the face of zero evidence is patently ridiculous.  The same can be said of God. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #134 on: June 06, 2012, 10:47:54 PM »
Wez, I think you are skirting around this issue without taking the time to think this through. 

What you are arguing is that people have the ability to help, and they don't.  For many people, this is true.  Lots of people could help others and they don't.  The difference, however, is that humans are not all powerful beings.  We do not have the ability to snap our fingers and end the suffering of that child instantly.  So the analogy is a poor one.  You can not compare the actions of humankind, with all its imperfections and limitations, to the actions of God as if they were on the same level.  They're just not.  It's almost as if you forget that God can (purportedly) do ANYTHING He wants.  Show me a human that can do that and perhaps your analogy is more fitting.   

You are right, we cannot snap our fingers and have someone be healed, if it were that easy, we would take it for granted.  Its easy to notice that you have to work hard in life to get things done, at least that is what I have noticed in my own.

Now, if a human being had the power to end all of that suffering with a single thought, and decided NOT to use it, what would you think of them?  I would dare say your criticism would be well deserved if that were the case.  This is what you need to open your eyes to.  God (if it exists) is the super powerful human with the ability to fix that child, and chooses to do nothing.  What you have to then realize is that God WANTS that child to suffer.  If He didn't, then He would end it.  That's the bottom line and you can't escape it. 

By end it, do you possibly mean finally cutting that child off from his/her suffering and bring that child up his/her rightful place in Heaven?  And if a single human being had that power, then yes, I would criticize him, because I believe that there are certain things in this world that God would like us as humans to work out, something we rarely do...

But the other issue that comes up is when you argue that it is humans who have the power to fix things.  Ironically, I doubt anyone here would disagree with you.  After all, atheists understand suffering to be a natural thing and that humans can play a role in it.  The other side of this, however, is that if suffering is a natural thing, then why couldn't the opposite be completely natural as well?  Why couldn't all the good things that happen in the world be completely natural as well?  Since this world is full of suffering and goodness alike, if you were being honest with yourself here... what sort of God would that point to?  Could it not simply be that good and bad are matters of perception, and that there is no need to suppose that a god exists to explain either side?   

Tell me what good things have happened to you in this world without the effort of you or someone else to make that good thing happen?  You see, if as a human race, if we worked together, we could all enjoy peace and good, but because we are humans, that does not happen.  If everyone who had the ability to help came together to help all the starving children around the world and succeeded, wouldn't that be a good thing?  I think you would be surprised to think about it for a while and realize that good things come at a cost, usually some sort of effort and work.

Also, with regard to your hypothetical notion that God helps us 'behind the scenes' so to speak and does things that we don't even know about...  If that is the case, then what that means is that God has the ability to help everyone, but instead uses his power to help those he picks and chooses, while allowing suffering on a massive scale for others.  Is that a quality you would worship?  To use an analogy... imagine I had a pill that cured cancer in every patient who took it; and then imagine your mother getting cancer and me telling you to piss off when you ask me for a pill.  A God that has the ability to help all, but picks and chooses to help some and let others suffer horribly, is not worthy of worship.  It's disgusting. 

I didn't state he picks and chooses, I stated that there might be situations in this universe involving all of us where he is preventing or making certain things happen....  I do believe that God gives everyone a chance, and gives everyone some help, whether indirectly (such as giving each of us the ability to work together and help out, or through ways that we don't even notice), or directly (i.e. my dad's friend that was randomly cured of full body arthritis and cancer). 

The notion that I have an eternal cosmic dictator looking down at me at all time, judging everything I do (including what I think), who's verdict is unquestionable, and who's punishment is endless, is a burden. 

Please refer to my previous post.

A. How do you know what the 'true meaning' of the church should be?  Who put you in charge?

B. Don't you mean the meaning you think they should have?  Do you really believe that you, yourself, have deciphered what the true meanings of the churches should be, and that all the millions of churches out there get it wrong. 

I don't know what the true meaning is, that is why I called it my belief.  You would probably be surprised to know that I would probably agree with a lot of your opinions on the negatives of some churches... I don't know if they've always been this way...

It's always been ridiculous.  In fact, it's been way worse than it is now.  Think 'dark ages'. 

I would disagree with you, I  believe that as the world progresses, as more human error is introduced into this world, the suffering increases as well. I can understand your view on that living in America, where we have pulled a cover over much of the suffering present in our country and people, but if you were to take a look at other countries and civilizations around the world, then maybe you might change your mind.

If you kept religion private, there would be no problem.  But so few of you do.  It infects society everywhere, which is why we fight it.  But just look at yourself... you sit here and rail against organized religion, yet at the same time, you think your beliefs and the way YOU do things is not somehow a problem.  Don't you realize that the respect you want for your beliefs is the same respect that all religions expect for theirs?  You're religious beliefs protect the very beliefs you rail against.   

I agree with you, it is unfortunate how religion infects society, and I do not blame you guys for fighting it....  It really bothers me to see hypocrites present in any religion trying to shove their bible down other people's throats, that's not the way it should be....  All those people do is make their religion look that much worse...  My religious beliefs do not protect the hypocritical people who go around trying to force their religion upon other people, causing problems and war, and belittling their religion in the long run...
 
This seems to say that you know what religion was in the first place.  Do you really claim to know that?  I'd like to know what sources you use to come up with what religion was in the first place.  Stick with Christianity if you want, just to make it easier.  Perhaps you don't know as much about this topic as you should.  Be aware, you're in a forum FULL of people who probably know a lot more about that than you do.

lol you guys love to jump on the opportunity to tear apart my vocabulary, once again sorry..... Let me see if this will help a little more:

I don't believe a religion should be force fed to anyone.  I believe it should be up to each and every person to determine for themselves.  There is nothing wrong with someone offering their beliefs to someone else just so they know, but it should not be forced upon the other person.  This will be my basis for this topic.  Now, that being said, one of the biggest detriments that religion plays in our society is problems it causes, that I would like to associate with those who try to force their religion upon others. 

I am more than aware the number of people present in this forum that can possibly know more about this topic than me, as if you haven't noticed already, this whole entire thread has basically been me debating against all of you.  I am more than okay than that, like I have stated, I would just like to offer my point of view on things.
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Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #135 on: June 06, 2012, 10:52:37 PM »
Pascal's Wager: Pretend to believe, just to be safe, 'cuz god's too stupid to know the difference.


Ughhh come on.............. I am stating that the comparison between the affect of a space goat and the affect of a God is not a fair comparison given my post explaining how making a decision to believe the space ghost ideal affects the world as a whole, whereas making a decision to believe there is a God only affects you.

I was not saying that you should pretend to believe to be safe, that's idiotic......
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Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #136 on: June 06, 2012, 10:54:25 PM »
lol just saying, I feel bad for anyone who comes into this thread late, because all of these posts have occured in about a day's time, it would be really hard to catch up on everything that is going on...... =P
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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #137 on: June 06, 2012, 10:57:08 PM »
I am more than aware the number of people present in this forum that can possibly know more about this topic than me, as if you haven't noticed already, this whole entire thread has basically been me debating against all of you.  I am more than okay than that, like I have stated, I would just like to offer my point of view on things.

Yet you seem to lack the ability to look at your position critically, and consider points made.  Do you not feel that any of your wild, fantastical, supernatural assertions are questionable?

A great many people think they are thinking, when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. (William James)
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Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #138 on: June 06, 2012, 11:00:35 PM »
Yet you seem to lack the ability to look at your position critically, and consider points made.  Do you not feel that any of your wild, fantastical, supernatural assertions are questionable?

As do you seem to lack the same ability.  part of believing something is admitting that it is questionable, after all, it is belief, not fact.  None of the claims you have made to me I have just discarded like used toilet paper, I give them thought, and am still giving them thought, as I hope you are doing the same. =)
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Offline Tinyal

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #139 on: June 06, 2012, 11:01:34 PM »
WZZR, (I hope you don't mind if I shorten your name?), do you know what Pascal's Wager is?

Do you know you just used it?

And, lastly - do you know why it's been demonstrated to be among the weakest, most useless apologitic arguments for why someone believes/why someone should believe for hundreds of years?

Using that argument often brings derision, and is often used by someone who hasn't thought about what - and why - they believe what they do.

I strongly suggest you read this 1 page summary, at least if you ever want to be taken seriously -Wikipedia has a good writeup (in my opinion) on it for a start - it's here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

<edit - tried to fix link>
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 11:04:18 PM by Tinyal »
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Offline WeZzZzRURR

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #140 on: June 06, 2012, 11:17:21 PM »
WZZR, (I hope you don't mind if I shorten your name?), do you know what Pascal's Wager is?

Do you know you just used it?

And, lastly - do you know why it's been demonstrated to be among the weakest, most useless apologitic arguments for why someone believes/why someone should believe for hundreds of years?

Using that argument often brings derision, and is often used by someone who hasn't thought about what - and why - they believe what they do.

I strongly suggest you read this 1 page summary, at least if you ever want to be taken seriously -Wikipedia has a good writeup (in my opinion) on it for a start - it's here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

<edit - tried to fix link>

Again, I do not believe I have used pascal's wager, please thoroughly read all my posts regarding that specific subject, and then if you still feel that I am referencing pascal's wager, please highlight where you believe I am doing it. =)

Oh, and as far as my name, WeZzZzRURR is just a quick thinking choice that I chose to call myself on xbox live when making an account, I wanted something that kinda matched my personality, silly =D  Feel free to call me what you wish
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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #141 on: June 06, 2012, 11:20:22 PM »
As do you seem to lack the same ability.

It might seem that way to you, but you must appreciate that I was born & raised in a very christian home, and lived it until the age of about 25.  Bible studies, youth groups, prayer meetings, summer camp, witnessing - you name it, I was there.  I have examined the belief system which my parents inculcated into my young, defenseless mind as a child; examined them more closely than you can comprehend.  It is only when you care more about what is true, than what is familiar or comforting, and combined with intellectual honesty that will result in a person jettisoning the false beliefs indoctrinated from childhood.

You were not reasoned into your beliefs, therefore it is very difficult to reason you out of them.


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Offline Tinyal

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #142 on: June 06, 2012, 11:28:48 PM »

Again, I do not believe I have used pascal's wager, please thoroughly read all my posts regarding that specific subject, and then if you still feel that I am referencing pascal's wager, please highlight where you believe I am doing it. =)


Here - bolded from your post #129 -  is where you are using Pascal's Wager:

"Now, the implication of the claim of a God (or Gods), and not believing in the supposed God sends you to eternal suffering in the afterlife, makes someone again make a decision: Ignore the claim as ignorance, which could possibly result in the ruining of yourself as an individual in the afterlife, or take action upon the claim in order to save yourself in the afterlife."

Am I to assume then that you are familiar with the use of such poor reasoning as to why someone - anyone - should believe, and that you yourself don't believe it to be valid?  If so, then good for you!!  Many, many believers still think we (as nontheists) should actually pay attention to such childish reasoning as Pascal's, and we get it here quite often by people who apparantly think (or, really, don't think, which is a big part of the problem to begin with) it's worthy of anything other than abrupt dismissal (at the least).
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Offline Tinyal

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #143 on: June 06, 2012, 11:33:39 PM »
As do you seem to lack the same ability.  part of believing something is admitting that it is questionable, after all, it is belief, not fact.  None of the claims you have made to me I have just discarded like used toilet paper, I give them thought, and am still giving them thought, as I hope you are doing the same. =)

I see no evidence that Star Stuff lacks any such ability - not in any posts in this thread, nor in dozens of others of Star Stuff's threads I read each month.  I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't just being flippant, or using schoolyard techniques to childishly insult someone, but that you actually think Star Stuff lacks the ability to think critically??

From what evidence do you pull that from?
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Someone...
« Reply #144 on: June 06, 2012, 11:45:48 PM »
Now, the implication of the claim of a God (or Gods), and not believing in the supposed God sends you to eternal suffering in the afterlife, makes someone again make a decision: Ignore the claim as ignorance, which could possibly result in the ruining of yourself as an individual in the afterlife, or take action upon the claim in order to save yourself in the afterlife.

That's Pascal's Wager right there, WeZzZzRURR:  Believing for the express purpose of avoiding post-life unpleasantness.

I do not currently possess religious faith, and in fact have never absolutely believed in the existence of any god or supernatural phenomenon.  I've been at this game for 47 of My 54 years now, and I don't anticipate that My basic perception of the world is going to change in favour of committed theism any time soon.  The closest I've ever gotten was conflicted half-belief.  As soon as I applied critical thinking and asked a few hard questions, what faith I had simply died.

And as My beliefs died, first I felt very stupid for the time I had invested in trying to believe; then I felt relief at being back in the Real World again.

Getting back to your original post, I do not see any reason that I should invest time or effort in attempting to believe in invisible, intangible, silent gods that seem to live in other peoples' imagination but not in Mine.  My current position is that a god must present itself to Me in physical form in My own home before I'll take it seriously.
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