Someone...

[Nam]

I don't. But I know that nobody can withstand pain for eternity without trying to improve their situation. While I disagree with HAL's "10 seconds" thing, I agree with the basic principle - you cannot withstand it forever.

How do you know people can't withstand pain for eternity? Where's your evidence to support such a hypothesis?

People who are inflicted enough times, mentally or physically, many of them become numb to the effects after a long period of time. That, is a fact, and there's documented evidence to support it.

Where's yours?

-Nam

[HAL]

New topic about this here -

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,22925.msg511410/topicseen.html#msg511410

[One Above All]

<snip>

Magic, remember? You will always feel the pain, and you can never become numb to it.

[Quesi]

Oh my!  A lot of excitement went on here on the forums while I was asleep!

Wez, may I offer you some unsolicited advice?  Education comes in many forms, and I am certain that you will learn a lot on this forum, and many of us may learn from you as well.  But if you have an exam to study for, that means that you are among the privileged elite in the world who have the opportunity to pursue higher education.  Don't screw it up by hanging out on these forums when you should be studying. 

These forums will be here.  When you wake up in the morning.  When your exam is over.  And I suspect, after you graduate and you find yourself in the workforce.

That said, I'm really looking forward to hearing more from you on a wide range of subjects.

Again, welcome. 

[Nam]

While I disagree with HAL's "10 seconds" thing, I agree with the basic principle - you cannot withstand it forever.

OK, OK - 15 seconds.

Nam - You don't know your mind when it comes to eternal torture - I doubt anyone does. How could they even imagine it? It's not like somebody telling you "Eat this dead hamster or I'll hit your foot with a hammer!". You might be able to make that bargain and refuse, and take the hit. But claiming you would take eternal torture if Biblegod was proven to exist? It's amazing you try to be so arrogant in front of grownups.

But, thanks for the idea for a new thread I'm going to start. I appreciate that!

There's nothing but assumptions by everyone here. So, for you to state i'd only last 15 seconds is your assumption I do not know what true physical pain is like -- and you'd be wrong. I know physical pain, and I know mental pain, as well. Now, could I last an eternity: who knows but for you to say flat out that I wouldn't you're basing this solely on the joke you believe me to be.

But, with out any evidence provided by you to show i'd only last 10 seconds you're talking shit just to talk shit. But, I know I could last longer 'cause I already have.

-Nam

[Nam]

<snip>

Magic, remember? You will always feel the pain, and you can never become numb to it.

I once shot a staple gun into my right hand[1]. I didn't scream in pain, I didn't cry, or anything. Something so painful should've inflicted me with some painful response but it didn't. Even taking my pocket knife and removing it from my hand gave no response by me. Still, to this day, have the scarring. I have even put lit cigarettes and cigars out on my arms with no reaction, at all.

Was there pain: yes. Did the pain hurt? No. I became numb to it. Just like so many people have who've been beaten in some way most or all their lives. The physical pain is there "we" just don't feel it.

It's all a mental game in the end. That's not magic, that's life.

-Nam

1.	not a stapler but the thing you post wire to fence posts with

[One Above All]

I meant that hell is magical. It's not a place where you can become numb to the pain. If it were, the whole "eternity in hell" thing would actually be pleasant, given the alternative.

[HAL]

If it were, the whole "eternity in hell" thing would actually be pleasant, given the alternative.

Quite. Nam apparently has powers we are not aware of. Why didn't I think of that! Just become numb to your intestines being braised over coals!

[Nam]

I meant that hell is magical. It's not a place where you can become numb to the pain. If it were, the whole "eternity in hell" thing would actually be pleasant, given the alternative.

Now, now don't be adding things. We're going by the bases of Christianity and the Bible. Real places aren't magical.

-Nam

[One Above All]

Now, now don't be adding things. We're going by the bases of Christianity and the Bible. Real places aren't magical.

It's a place where you magically go to after death and are magically tortured for eternity. Hell is magical.

[ParkingPlaces]

WZZZZR  (Trying to find a simpler version of your name)

You are the one who brought up the bible and its infallibility. You are are one who said it is 100& true and that is is important to your belief that it be that true. I responded by giving you examples (yes, without full explanation, but that would take many hours and had I done that and then had you dismiss me, I'd be pissed) of why the bible is false. I can back every one up.

Should we choose one of my examples so each of us can elaborate as to why it is true or not true? One scientific finding that tears the possibility of the flood into little tiny pieces and tosses it out the window? Or pick a wider ranging set of reasons to believe or not believe the flood story? Because if the flood did not happen, then the bible isn't 100% true.

If the accuracy of the bible is at the forefront of your belief system, you cannot come here and say that that is a given and then discuss other aspects of your belief system. Especially since you yourself admit you haven't read the bible from cover to cover.

You are taking classes in fluid mechanics. Did they teach you anything about the fluid mechanics of water? Can all your formulas allow for the reality of what six mile of water would do to the planet? What six miles of water would do as it fell in incredibly heavy rain on an impossibly huge wooden boat built by rank amateurs? And can you use your calculator to show how much atmospheric pressure a bubble of water that thick would put on the surface of the earth in pre-flood days (because many theists claim that the water came from a protective bubble of water that surrounded the earth prior to the flood).

While we can easily have threads here that discuss different aspects of your belief and our lack of a belief, you asked our reasons for not believing, and wild claims in the bible about floods and such are one of the reasons I do not swallow the stories. The subject isn't going to go away just because you find it inconvenient.

[Nick]

Hey W, faith is foolishly accepting as true a concept or an idea without bothering to check for valid evidence.

[Grimm]

Oh my!  A lot of excitement went on here on the forums while I was asleep!

I know, right?  Geez.  We talk a lot.

Wez, may I offer you some unsolicited advice?  Education comes in many forms, and I am certain that you will learn a lot on this forum, and many of us may learn from you as well.  But if you have an exam to study for, that means that you are among the privileged elite in the world who have the opportunity to pursue higher education.  Don't screw it up by hanging out on these forums when you should be studying. 

Especially this forum.  We never, ever shut up.  Exam first!  Theology, philosophy, and randomness immediately following!

These forums will be here.  When you wake up in the morning.  When your exam is over.  And I suspect, after you graduate and you find yourself in the workforce.

Unless we get hit with yet another DDOS attack, in which case it might be late afternoon.

That said, I'm really looking forward to hearing more from you on a wide range of subjects.

Ditto!


Welcome to the forums - and don't let us scare ya off.  We may growl and snarl and carry on, but we don't /actually/ bite.  Often.  Much.  Without provocation.  Or permission.  Or some such.

[Avatar Of Belial]

That's interesting, Because the definition of atheism that I am aware of, and correct if I'm wrong is stated as the following:
"The theory or belief that God does not exist."

Atheism
A (not/without) theism (belief in god/God/gods)

An atheist is someone who isn't a theist.
Wikipedia lends us three definitions as well: Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.

Most here fall under the first definition from the wiki. "Atheism is, [...], the [casting off, discarding][1] of belief in the existence of deities."

The literal definition of agnosticism:
a religious orientation of doubt; a denial of ultimate knowledge of the existence of God; "agnosticism holds that you can neither prove nor disprove God's existence"

Agnostic
A (not/without) gnostic (knowledge)

A gnostic is someone who claims to have (often infallible) knowledge on a matter, whereas an agnostic does not make that claim.

I guess what you're saying is to be an agnostic atheist is to believe that there is not a God, but also believe there is no way to prove it either way? Correct me if I am wrong in this...

Close[2]. Enough lack[3] of evidence has piled up that I can claim confidence when I say no god, God, or gods exist. There still exists the possibility that proof will come out in favor of a god, but it has not yet happened. However - and this addresses the following as well...

Now explain to me why you don't have to prove to me that a certain God does not exist...

A negative cannot truly be proven. Especially one where the positive is either ill-defined or defined in such a way as to be beyond reach.

For example, I will propose an invisible blue Alaskan elephant is standing 100 yards away. The elephant, named Bob, is invisible, intangible, from Alaska, and blue. Bob has been following you around for the past three years. And given my definition of him, you would be unable to disprove his existence.

In most cases, proving a negative (the lack of something, like a god or Bob) is a logical absurdity. Thus why those who have the positive claim ("God does exist" or "Bob does exist") must be the ones who provide the proof.

Even something simple, like proving there is no apple in a fridge, is considered a logical absurdity. Not being able to find the apple could simply mean you didn't look in the correct place. Thus it is far easier for the person who claims there is an apple in the fridge to point it out, proving such.


Thus no contradiction when I say I am an agnostic atheist. While I claim a high degree of certainty that no gods exist (atheist), I admit the possibility still exists (agnostic), and await evidence that can prove it (rationalist)[4].

1.	Some people, including myself, dislike the use of "reject", since some Christians get annoying with their wordplay on the matter.
2.	However, this is neither horseshoes nor hand-grenades.
3.	Over the years, many specific claims about the powers or stories surrounding the various gods' have been disproven or fallen flat, thus not lending credence to their myth. Thus "lack" of evidence.
4.	Emotional appeals are less likely to work on me, and I distrust/discard anecdotes.

[Frank]

Now explain to me why you don't have to prove to me that a certain God does not exist...

When you explain to me why Santa Claus doesn't exist. Quid pro quo.

[WeZzZzRURR]

This is incredible how many people have poured into this since last night!! I don't even know where to begin.... hahaha

I guess I should start firstly by stating this:

My intention of this discussion was to determine if you guys as atheists believe if it is even slightly possible that a God exists, which most (if not all of you) have shown me that you believe that to be a possibility.

Now secondly, as far as the bible is concerned, like you have reminded me, and like I have stated, I have not read the bible cover to cover.  I have also made it clear that I myself question the validity of the bible at times because I believe it could have been subject to change over the years of its existence.  Now, as far as the contradictions all of you have stated that the bible makes, I will being my own research on those things, what seems like in unfathomable list, and get back to you on how I feel and think about those things, until then, I would like to pause the debate over the bible only because I do not want to see my lack of knowledge of the bible to do my religion more harm than has already been done by others.....

In conclusion, Here is my order of importance in my belief:

-Build on your relationship with God
-Do good for the world [something that I believe to be called living a Godly life (you guys are going to hate that definition hahahaha, and I understand you can do good in this world without religion, but to me, my beliefs set the tone for what I deem as good, and plus, I would love to see all of you in the afterlife, and know that you are not doomed to eternal suffering), as in doing things in the name of God that help the world]


I don't know, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I want to live my life for God, I want to please God, and I want to help make this world a better place.... I am thankful to God for giving me what I have, and I guess a good way to describe it is I want to do good in God's name because God did so for me.

[One Above All]

I don't know, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I want to live my life for God, I want to please God, and I want to help make this world a better place.

Those three things are contradictory. Gods are vengeful, arrogant, childish, stupid, psychopathic and all-around evil. Allah[1] is one of the worst.

1.	That's what "God" means, by the way.

[Avatar Of Belial]

My intention of this discussion was to determine if you guys as atheists believe if it is even slightly possible that a God exists, which most (if not all of you) have shown me that you believe that to be a possibility.

Keep in mind that, while we admit it is possible, we consider it equally likely that Santa exists.

Also, while I admit a "god-like" entity may exist, I can say with absolute certainty that it is not the Christian god, the Islamic god, or any other major religion's god. They can't even keep themselves straight, much less agree with reality.

[WeZzZzRURR]

Those three things are contradictory. Gods are vengeful, arrogant, childish, stupid, psychopathic and all-around evil. Allah[1] is one of the worst.

1.	That's what "God" means, by the way.

I don't believe them to be so, but like I said, I need to research the contradictions in the bible for myself and develop a better understanding of the bible before I clamor to it.

Thank you everyone for pointing out to me my lack of understanding of the bible, this will really be a nice kick in the butt for me to go through it and learn for myself...   Just know that I consider myself a christian because what I know so far about the God I believe in agrees with my belief in christianity (which is now obvious to me I need to research more)

Keep in mind that, while we admit it is possible, we consider it equally likely that Santa exists.

Also, while I admit a "god-like" entity may exist, I can say with absolute certainty that it is not the Christian god, the Islamic god, or any other major religion's god. They can't even keep themselves straight, much less agree with reality.

That is fine, all I wanted to hear was that you admit that it is somewhat possible that a God can exist. =)

[Nick]

Its possible that a unicorn is in my back yard right now, that a teacup is in orbit around Mars right now, that helicopter cat is hovering above my house right now...but I doubt it all.

[Star Stuff]

That is fine, all I wanted to hear was that you admit that it is somewhat possible that a God can exist.

Two things:

1)  You've yet to answer my question as to what you mean by "god".

2)  That you consider the following:  It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence.  (W. K. Clifford)

[WeZzZzRURR]

Two things:

1)  You've yet to answer my question as to what you mean by "god".

2)  That you consider the following:  It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence.  (W. K. Clifford)

Two things:

1) I have given you my interpretation of what God is, if you do not accept it as my interpretation of God, than you are not accepting that I am my own individual with my own beliefs.

2) To me, sufficient evidence is all around us...... Its in my personal experiences.....  I cannot sit her and try to convince you that  the good that I see in this world, and my personal experiences are sufficient evidence, because it comes down to a matter of opinion.

[Avatar Of Belial]

That is fine, all I wanted to hear was that you admit that it is somewhat possible that a God can exist. =)

Ok, and what does hearing it accomplish?

[WeZzZzRURR]

Ok, and what does hearing it accomplish?

If you read my post about wanting to understand you guys, I wanted to understand if you believe that it is possible for a God to exist, that is what it has accomplished.

[Star Stuff]

1) I have given you my interpretation of what God is, if you do not accept it as my interpretation of God, than you are not accepting that I am my own individual with my own beliefs.

You have not.  You've rambled on about how & why you believe, but I'm asking you to define just what this god is comprised of.  Is it a bearded old man?  A spirit?  Energy?  What?

2) To me, sufficient evidence is all around us.

Then why do the smartest people in the world (the scientists who's life's work is to understand the universe) not come to same conclusions as you?

It's in my personal experiences.

That's not good enough reason for me to accept your claim.  You're simply saying that you have emotions, and that this is somehow evidence. It is not.

  I cannot sit her and try to convince you that  the good that I see in this world, and my personal experiences are sufficient evidence, because it comes down to a matter of opinion.

No it does not.  Reality does not conform to our opinions.  It is a matter of reason & evidence.

[Brakeman]

WeZzZzRURR,

Has god ever contacted you or spoken with you? Do you have any first hand evidence of his existence?

[WeZzZzRURR]

You have not.  You've rambled on about how & why you believe, but I'm asking to to define just what this god is comprised of.  Is it a bearded old man?  A spirit?  Energy?  What?

Well, narrowing your question down to that, which I wish you would have just done in the first place instead of being so vague, I have a relationship with God, yes, but I have not seen God face to face, so I do not know what God is comprised of in that sense.  I feel that what we each imagine God to be can greatly differ, and quite frankly we don't know for sure what God is, all that I can tell you is that I feel God's presence in my life, I feel God's presence in this universe, and I see God's intervention in this universe.

Then why do the smartest people in the world (the scientists who's life's work is to understand the universe) not come to same conclusions as you?

Careful who you call the smartest people in the world
There are actually many scientists ("smartest people in the world") whose life work is to understand the universe that believe in the presence of a God....

That's not good enough reason for me to accept your claim.  You're simply saying that you have emotions, and that this is somehow evidence. It is not.

It is more than just emotions, it is just certain things that happen in my life that I lack explanation for... I agree with you that I cannot provide this as evidence to shake you, but for me personally, this is just one of the reasons why I believe.

No it does not.  Reality does not conform to our opinions.  It is a matter of reason & evidence.

I would actually be inclined to believe that reality is in the eye of the beholder......  There are certain things that can be justified by reason and evidence in this reality, but there are also many things that are left up to personal perception.

[WeZzZzRURR]

WeZzZzRURR,

Has god ever contacted you or spoken with you? Do you have any first hand evidence of his existence?

I will be honest with you, and this is a part of my faith in which I wish to build on, I do not pray very often, in fact, almost not at all.... and I am not proud of it....

I have never had direct contact with God if that is what you mean, but I believe that I have had indirect contact with God (experiences, felt presence, stuff like that I guess).

[ParkingPlaces]

WeZzZzRURR,

People believe in all kinds of gods. There are people in Japan that think their emperor is a god. There are people in India that think Shiva is a god. There are people in the jungles of Malaysia that think their god is the right one. Apparently it it pretty easy to get fooled into believing a god is the real god.

How come you are immune?

And why is it that I look at this world, and this universe, and see no sign of a deity? You and I both occupy similar pieces of reality, and you see your go while I see none. My lack of a god doesn't make me a bad person, any more than your having a god makes you a good one. Why do you suppose two people can look at the world so differently.

And just to be clear. My atheism is about as complete as it can be. I am well over 99% sure there is no god. Actually I'm 100% sure there isn't one, except that everyone thinks I'm silly for saying that. So while there are a few folks who are a bit more open minded than me around here, I would only be open to the existence of a god if the dude contacted me personally in a manner unavailable to mere mortals and said hello.

I said that to a person once and he said I was asking too much. I said I wasn't asking, just mentioning.

And nothing has ever happened to me that I lack an explanation for. Can you give us an example of something that confounded you? Praying for a job and getting hired soon thereafter doesn't count. I've been hired without prayer enough that such things will not impress. (I used that example because a recent theist said that such a thing had happened to him.)