Hi, I'm Wesley

[WeZzZzRURR]

Hello everyone, I'm Wesley, I'm a Christian believer (with somewhat differing views I guess you could say), and I really enjoy debating (I would like to think of it more as getting to know each other's beliefs and the reasons behind them) the subject between religion, God, aethism, etc.  Quite frankly, its not really about winning to me, because it really REALLY bugs me to see other fellow "Christians" come onto forums like this and rant on in a completely hypocritical manner.... Not only do they make fools of themselves, but they make fools of their religion too.  Anyways, I look forward to the coming discussions, if there is anything that you would like to talk about, feel free to message me or invite me to a thread.  Thanks! =)

[JeffPT]

Hi Wesley, welcome to the site.  If it is debate you're looking for, you're in the right spot. 

Why don't you tell us a little about what you believe and why you believe it? 

Also, have you ever read the bible from cover to cover? 

[kaziglu bey]

Hello Wesley and welcome to the forum! Like JeffPT said, this is definitely the place to be for debate. It gets heated at times. Also, make sure to read the Rules and Tutorial, if this hasn't been suggested. It will be helpful for proceeding in the forum.

Like it said it can get pretty intense here, so be prepared.

[Traveler]

Hello and welcome! You'll find a variety of people here, and although most of us are non-believers, we welcome honest conversation with believers as well. I hope you find this place interesting and informative, and I look forward to discussing life, the universe and everything with you.

[jeremy0]

Wesley:

To answer your post on another thread, here are my viewpoints - why I left, what became of me, etc.  Basically, I felt that the OT was falsified completely by science - so discarded it.  But I held onto Jesus.  Then this site disproved jesus along with just about every other religion.  It made me even more of an activist, and inspired me a lot to finally become an atheist.  Don't get me wrong - I was on the verge of being an atheist before this.  You see, I was looking at other religions, the extremities and the 'norm', and was in major disagreements with what people were teaching and doing.  That's actually what made me atheist, or as we would like to term it, rationalist.  People doing some pretty negative shit.

That said - here are a couple of my better reads that will explain myself:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,22747.msg508596.html#msg508596
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,22713.msg507614.html#msg507614
realeconomics101.wordpress.com

Thanks, and welcome to the forum.  I hope you enjoyed me joking around earlier - I have a strange sense of humor that is rather drab and inappropriate...

[WeZzZzRURR]

WOWWWW I JUST HAD MY LIFE STORY WRITTEN OUT AND PRESSED BACKSPACE ON ACCIDENT AND WENT BACK TO THE PREVIOUS PAGE.................

[Nick]

WOWWWW I JUST HAD MY LIFE STORY WRITTEN OUT AND PRESSED BACKSPACE ON ACCIDENT AND WENT BACK TO THE PREVIOUS PAGE.................

Thats life.  Oh, welcome also.

[WeZzZzRURR]

ughh.......

okay, I don't want to type it all again....
Here's it all in a nutshell:

1.I believe in God
2.I believe that it is important to have a relationship with God, and that the religion doesn't necessarily matter (unless that religion restricts that possibility obviously)
3.I had this super long explanation on probability typed up before I hit backspace on accident, but basically I believe that the probabilty of anything happening at any given moment in this universe is infinite (meaning it won't happen, not that it will infinitely happen haha), unless it is controlled by something (i.e. me dropping a quarter face down on my desk from half an inch above the desk's surface).... (take that examply on a larger scale, the incarnation of the universe, I believe God was in control of it, therefore it was possible for it to happen)


Just honestly, I know there a lot of bad things going on in this world, a lot of wars and fighting, much of it over religion, but when I stop to think about how perfect everything in the universe has to be for our Earth to not move a foot (or whatever length it is) to the sun, killing us all, or move a foot away from the sun, killing us all, I just can't help but believe that something greater had to be involved in the making of it all.

Now as far as the debate on religion and its affects on our world, that is a HUGE subject that requires a lot of time and patience, and debating over it is something that I would really like to dive into, but please not in this intro post, I just want to let you guys know what I believe.

[WeZzZzRURR]

Wesley:

To answer your post on another thread, here are my viewpoints - why I left, what became of me, etc.  Basically, I felt that the OT was falsified completely by science - so discarded it.  But I held onto Jesus.  Then this site disproved jesus along with just about every other religion.  It made me even more of an activist, and inspired me a lot to finally become an atheist.  Don't get me wrong - I was on the verge of being an atheist before this.  You see, I was looking at other religions, the extremities and the 'norm', and was in major disagreements with what people were teaching and doing.  That's actually what made me atheist, or as we would like to term it, rationalist.  People doing some pretty negative shit.

That said - here are a couple of my better reads that will explain myself:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,22747.msg508596.html#msg508596
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,22713.msg507614.html#msg507614
realeconomics101.wordpress.com

Thanks, and welcome to the forum.  I hope you enjoyed me joking around earlier - I have a strange sense of humor that is rather drab and inappropriate...

I would like to proudly say that I read through all of that A to B.  There are so many things I would like to talk to you about in your beliefs that it would probably annoy you......  I am very grateful to hear that there are others in this world who want to act now in making the world a better place for the present and the future...  I am having a hard time figuring out where you developed the notion that the afterlife is all that matters to (christians?)...  At least for me, as a Christian, I believe in the ideal that by living a "Godly" life, we strive to help others and go out of our own ways and give up a little bit (sometimes a lot) to help others.  I really see today how the importance of making it to the afterlife has seemed to become the single most important thing of a "Christian", and it is sad that there are so many of them misrepresenting the religion.....

I believe that in our present day, Christianity and most religions have shifted to a "club" type organization as opposed to true faith.  Because of this, the many hypocrites in those religions drive away others because of their misrepresentation...  Many churches, religious organizations, have driven so far away from their religions that it is baffling to me that they can still stand there and try to convince others.... 




Something tells me that you had a hard time at one point in your past, and if that is the case, I am really sorry that you had to experience that..... But, keep in mind that the actions of the followers of a certain religion do not necessarily represent the religion truly, which should be apparent in our world today full of hypocrites.

Like I said, I am more than willing to keep talking with you on the subject, there's a lot to talk about.

[Gracie]

Hello and welcome to the forum, Wesley.  I look forward to getting to know you better.

There is a wealth of information on this site.   

[Star Stuff]

I'm curious Wesley, what exactly do you mean when you say "god"?

[WeZzZzRURR]

I'm curious Wesley, what exactly do you mean when you say "god"?

In general or in a specific post I made?

[Star Stuff]

In general.  You said you believed in "god", and I'm wondering what you mean by that.

[WeZzZzRURR]

lol trick question?

To me, God is the creator of everything (in the sense that he created the Heavens and the Earth, and the things on the Earth, and then everything we know today has branched off of his creation).

Basically to me, God is kind of like a parent-figure.....  God wants me to succeed in life, help others, and do great things.  I want to  do good things in the name of God, to make God proud, and not let God down.  I can easily compare this to the relationship I have with my dad.  I want to make my dad happy, make him proud of me, and do things for him and not let him down. 

Take a parent of a problematic kid for example:

If the kid knowingly does things that hurt and affect other people in negative ways, the parent would not reward their kid, but rather punish that kid.  Likewise, I believe it is the same way for God, but on a grander scale.

I am of the belief that to get sent to Hell, you really have to be a bad person, the type of person that you or I or most people would look at and say: "they do not deserve to live."  Even as bad as that person might be, God offers them a chance to change their ways and ask for forgiveness, but if the person refuses and continues their ways, knowing that their ways are bad, then what do you think that person deserves? Especially if the person presented with plenty of opportunity to change their ways, and refuse to.

Likewise, the parent of the kid attempts to help their kid change their ways if they are being bad, but if the person continues to keep being bad, affecting others negatively, the parent abandons their kid.  Even after that abandonment the kid might have the opportunity to change their ways and try to rebuild their relationship with the parent, but it doesn't always happen.

What makes God different from a parent-type is that if you are truly sincere in your apology and truly feel terrible about the bad things that you have committed in your life, God will forgive you.

Bad is kind of a broad word to use, considering its really a matter of opinion, but I think you get the idea...

[ParkingPlaces]

Just honestly, I know there a lot of bad things going on in this world, a lot of wars and fighting, much of it over religion, but when I stop to think about how perfect everything in the universe has to be for our Earth to not move a foot (or whatever length it is) to the sun, killing us all, or move a foot away from the sun, killing us all, I just can't help but believe that something greater had to be involved in the making of it all.

Welcome Wesley. Though we don't debate here in the introduction section, I thought I would point out something that might become a problem for you. In the above, you mentioned that you believe (have been told) that the earth orbit is within a foot of where it has to be for us to survive. In fact, the distance from the earth to the sun varies greatly. On around December 21st, we are 91.4 million miles from the sun, while on June 21st, we are 94.5 million miles away. That is an almost 3 million mile variation (which I rounded to the nearest 100,000 miles), which means another foot one way or the other isn't likely to be an issue. So before you make scientific claims, make sure they are scientific and not merely religious interpretations of something already suspect.

Otherwise we'll jump you like crazy dogs (just kidding, more like slobbery puppies, but you get the idea.)

[WeZzZzRURR]

Just honestly, I know there a lot of bad things going on in this world, a lot of wars and fighting, much of it over religion, but when I stop to think about how perfect everything in the universe has to be for our Earth to not move a foot (or whatever length it is) to the sun, killing us all, or move a foot away from the sun, killing us all, I just can't help but believe that something greater had to be involved in the making of it all.

Welcome Wesley. Though we don't debate here in the introduction section, I thought I would point out something that might become a problem for you. In the above, you mentioned that you believe (have been told) that the earth orbit is within a foot of where it has to be for us to survive. In fact, the distance from the earth to the sun varies greatly. On around December 21st, we are 91.4 million miles from the sun, while on June 21st, we are 94.5 million miles away. That is an almost 3 million mile variation (which I rounded to the nearest 100,000 miles), which means another foot one way or the other isn't likely to be an issue. So before you make scientific claims, make sure they are scientific and not merely religious interpretations of something already suspect.

Otherwise we'll jump you like crazy dogs (just kidding, more like slobbery puppies, but you get the idea.)

I figured my one foot guesstimate might have been a little off...  I knew that the earth varies in distance from the sun throughout its cycle around it, but I also do know that the path in which the Earth orbits in is pretty precise, along with other things in our galaxy, which if thrown off by only a little amount (not going to throw another guesstimated number out haha) would kill us all 

[ParkingPlaces]

I figured my one foot guesstimate might have been a little off...  I knew that the earth varies in distance from the sun throughout its cycle around it, but I also do know that the path in which the Earth orbits in is pretty precise, along with other things in our galaxy, which if thrown off by only a little amount (not going to throw another guesstimated number out haha) would kill us all 

I'm glad to hear that you didn't have such a narrow range in mind. My intent was to point out that we get many christians here who apparently learn everything from the same book or web site and parrot bad science as fact while discussing things with us. Every christian against fossils makes the same claim about faulty carbon dating that is so erroneous we groan in unison every time we read it again. Please double check your facts before you believe them. The double check them again before you use them.

[WeZzZzRURR]

I'm glad to hear that you didn't have such a narrow range in mind. My intent was to point out that we get many christians here who apparently learn everything from the same book or web site and parrot bad science as fact while discussing things with us. Every christian against fossils makes the same claim about faulty carbon dating that is so erroneous we groan in unison every time we read it again. Please double check your facts before you believe them. The double check them again before you use them.

Well if you look again at that post I made, I stated in parenthesis (or whatever length it is), meaning that it wasn't a statement of fact, but rather a guesstimate, because I was just trying to get a point across...

And as far as carbon dating, which is a whole other subject to explore, my belief, and once again, not fact, but just belief, is that I really REALLY find it hard to honestly use anything means of measuring the age of something other than written evidence.....  I mean, I understand the general idea behind carbon dating, and I am also uncertain as to what I believe the age of the world to be (because of that awkward area of time in the bible where we don't know for sure), but I just quite frankly find it hard to believe....

One of those reasons is because I am a mechanical engineer.  Now in engineering, we do a lot of similar things that carbon dating does using math, and our answers very rarely come out to be the same as what they are in reality.  We also deal with something called a factor of safety, which basically is this: when we design a bridge, we have to factor in things that probably won't ever cross that bridge, but we do it anyways to be safe.....  Now say calculations are made and it is decided that a bridge needs to be able to stand up to a load of 100,000 lbs (just a random number), and say that we decide to go with a factor of safety of 3, that bridge is designed to be able to withstand a maximum load of 300,000 lbs.

Now, think if the carbon dating.  There are many unrecorded occurances in the history of the world, being weather, or other things, that could very well skew the readings given by the carbon dating.  For someone to take the carbon dater, and approximate a "factor of safety" for that reading, chances are it is going to be way off from what it really is, because we quite frankly don't know what has happened to that piece of carbon being tested.  So it is at that point right there that I already question the validity of carbon dating, and I am aware that there are many other arguments against carbon dating out there, and if you guys are interested in them, feel free to research them on your own, because honestly, I could really careless, because my belief centers more around my relationship with God as opposed to how everything came to be.

[Avatar Of Belial]

Well if you look again at that post I made, I stated in parenthesis (or whatever length it is), meaning that it wasn't a statement of fact, but rather a guesstimate, because I was just trying to get a point across...

A point that was soundly refuted.

Welcome to the forums

[WeZzZzRURR]

A point that was soundly refuted.

First off, was that necessary to say? And secondly, can you show me where this point was refuted please, because I fail to see it....

Thanks for the semi-friendly welcoming, in the future, please fully read the previous statements before you make a blind jab at me. =)

[Ambassador Pony]

Weezer, I like your spunk. Welcome to the forum.

Any problems, just PM me. 

[Quesi]

Welcome to the forum!  I look forward to learning more about you and your beliefs. 

[Brakeman]

A point that was soundly refuted.

First off, was that necessary to say? And secondly, can you show me where this point was refuted please, because I fail to see it....

The original goal post was soundly refuted, (one foot), then you moved the goal post to a level of general ridiculousness, (3 million miles is equal to god's precision?), even though that makes the point a non-sequitur, (If I jumped onto the surface of the sun I would die! Isn't god amazing!) Duh!
The point was supposed to be about god's supposed precision wasn't it?

We would ONLY die when we are killed by physical, non-supernatural events, Never by anything supernatural, because the supernatural doesn't exist. How could an engineer imply that a supernatural thing "X" exists and that we know lots of information about it, when all humans are capable of seeing are natural events, "Y" ?

[WeZzZzRURR]

My original goal post was to make it a point that the path in which the Earth follows in its motion around the sun is a very precise path, I understand that it different times during its orbit its distance away from the sun varies (paths such as elliptical paths could explain this)... Now, I am not by any means an expert on the path in which the Earth orbits the sun, and because of this I will not blindly make claims to what that path is, my I am inclined to believe that that path is a precise path taken by the Earth, and if that path were thrown off (I'm not going to throw a number out because I do not know, the foot analysis was meant to be taken as just example, not scientific fact), our life on this planet would cease to exist. 

I guess what I'm trying to say, is being an engineer and all, is I believe there are things in this universe that lack common sense to be explained with.....  As a believer, that is one aspect of my belief of God.  Just think about the amount of precision that goes on in our galaxy's orbital system, if by chance it happened to fall into the position that it is in presently, I question the odds of everything falling right out of that position (which to me would seem to be far more likely to happen, thus according to probability, I believe that we shouldn't be here). Final time! See you guys soon =D

[screwtape]

... the path in which the Earth follows in its motion around the sun is a very precise path,

I understand all the words there, but the order in which you have arranged them does not make sense to me.  Please explain what you mean.  Particularly, please explain what you mean by "precise".  As an engineer, you should have an acutely developed understanding of precision.

this is my understanding: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision
I do not see how it relates at all to the Earth's orbit.

I am inclined to believe that that path is a precise path taken by the Earth, and if that path were thrown off ...our life on this planet would cease to exist. 

You seem to be saying "If things were different, they would be different."  Is this a goldielocks argument?  Everything is juuuuust right, thus god.   

I guess what I'm trying to say, is being an engineer and all, is I believe there are things in this universe that lack common sense to be explained with.....

?  I do not understand the second half of that sentence.  Nor do I understand what being an engineer has to do with it.

Just think about the amount of precision that goes on in our galaxy's orbital system,

See above, re: precision.

if by chance it happened to fall into the position that it is in presently, I question the odds of everything falling right out of that position (which to me would seem to be far more likely to happen, thus according to probability, I believe that we shouldn't be here).

Great leapin jesus, man.  Where on earth are you studying engineering and where did you come up with these ideas? 

[Graybeard]

Now, I am not by any means an expert on the path in which the Earth orbits the sun,

This is entirely apparent from what you write

I am inclined to believe that that path is a precise path taken by the Earth, and if that path were thrown off (I'm not going to throw a number out because I do not know, the foot analysis was meant to be taken as just example, not scientific fact), our life on this planet would cease to exist.

Utter garbage - You know, I have some faith in the intelligence of people, but here my will to continue is failing. We have known for hundreds of years that the Earth's orbit around the sun is an ellipse, its shortest radius is 5 Million Kms shorter than the longest. 

I guess what I'm trying to say, is being an engineer and all,

You are not an engineer - why are you lying?

is I believe there are things in this universe that lack common sense to be explained with.....  As a believer, that is one aspect of my belief of God.  Just think about the amount of precision that goes on in our galaxy's orbital system,

Yes, I, unlike you, have thought about it - it is not very precise at all.

God is not necessary.

Your post is the same as a piece of stupidity common on the internet as a facebook extract. I posted the shortened reply to accompany you on the shortened bus.



Have a look here: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=19384.0

[Graybeard]

Now, think if the carbon dating.  There are many unrecorded occurances in the history of the world, being weather, or other things, that could very well skew the readings given by the carbon dating. 

(i) Weather and "other things[1]"do not affect radioactive emissions.
(ii) The variations in Carbon dating are well-known and can be factored in with remarkable accuracy.
(iii) Carbon 14 is not the only way of dating, there are many other isotopes all with varying half-lives.
Case closed

1.	Is that a technical engineering term?

[One Above All]

Welcome, Wesley. I am One Above All. I sincerely hope you enjoy debate, rather than "debate". You'll understand the difference soon enough, I think.

[Frank]

I guess what I'm trying to say, is being an engineer and all,

A 20 year old engineer? I'm a 57 year old nuclear scientist. How do you do.