Author Topic: just how important is procreation?  (Read 1180 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Timtheskeptic

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2239
  • Darwins +20/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • atheist and loving it
    • atheist blogspot
just how important is procreation?
« on: June 05, 2012, 01:47:29 PM »
i find it hilarious how some people makes a big deal about procreation. The way i see it, we're already well over 7 billion, so what if some people don't want to have kids or can't procreate?

This is what i hear from some folks

1) Homosexuals can't procreate (Gay rights issue)
2) It's important to keep your bloodline going (Abortion issue or people whom choose not to have children)
3) If people think like you do then human race would die out (This is said to Gays or to child-free individuals)
4) Having children is so important and miraculous.
5) it's important for the establishment of civilization


Here's my response to that:

1) Gays and lesbians can procreate through surrogacy or artifical insemination.
2) It's a matter of personal choice. I also would go with what George Carlin said, "They're all about the unborn, they'll do anything for the unborn, but once you're born, you're on your own! They won't wanna hear from you, no welfare checks, no hallmark cards, no tutition, no nothing until you reach Military age and then they send you off to die." I'm paraphrasing.
3) This argument is pointless and makes no sense. There have already been countless of infertile individuals, individuals who choose not to have children, and couples who are gay or lesbian or bisexual, so what's the big deal? Every person makes their own choice in life as they should, we're not some automatons who reprograms ourselves whenever another was reprogrammed different.
4) If children were so important, then why hadn't those folks been focusing on children who were abused or neglected, starving somewhere, left in an orphange unwanted, lying in the hospital as their parents cannot afford money for surgeries or medication, or the children who were being bullied? Why focus on someone's sexuality?
5) While it may be important to keep the generation going, but not everyone has to have a child and not everyone can procreate.


I personally cannot have children and i don't want to have children. I don't hate children, i just don't want one. I picture myself just living in a small simple house with a partner and just enjoying life and maybe traveling.  don't think that can cause any problems to society. People may say it's selfish, but we're all selfish.
Me:What are you looking at Eminem?
Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline One Above All

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 9465
  • Darwins +224/-31
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: just how important is procreation?
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2012, 01:59:32 PM »
BM
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Quesi

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1983
  • Darwins +369/-4
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: just how important is procreation?
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2012, 02:30:18 PM »
I didn't engage in procreation when I became a mom.  I adopted a little girl who needed a family.  And it was the most joyous, amazing, life altering thing I've ever done. 

I recognize families as those families define themselves.  I don't care about legal documents that state that someone is married to someone else, or bloodlines of children or siblings.  I recognize the reality of complex families, with absentee parents or step parents or weekend dads and weekday moms.  I recognize the grandmas raising their grandchildren, and the young adult siblings raising their little brothers or sisters. 

Laws need to catch up to reality.  Gay and lesbian families are not going to go away.  And whether they have kids or not, they are real families. 

Offline Timtheskeptic

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2239
  • Darwins +20/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • atheist and loving it
    • atheist blogspot
Re: just how important is procreation?
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2012, 02:57:13 PM »
I didn't engage in procreation when I became a mom.  I adopted a little girl who needed a family.  And it was the most joyous, amazing, life altering thing I've ever done. 

I recognize families as those families define themselves.  I don't care about legal documents that state that someone is married to someone else, or bloodlines of children or siblings.  I recognize the reality of complex families, with absentee parents or step parents or weekend dads and weekday moms.  I recognize the grandmas raising their grandchildren, and the young adult siblings raising their little brothers or sisters. 

Laws need to catch up to reality.  Gay and lesbian families are not going to go away.  And whether they have kids or not, they are real families.

Exactly!
Me:What are you looking at Eminem?
Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Online Graybeard

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6193
  • Darwins +412/-14
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: just how important is procreation?
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2012, 03:45:53 PM »
<rant>
i find it hilarious how some people makes a big deal about procreation. The way i see it, we're already well over 7 billion, so what if some people don't want to have kids or can't procreate?
To avoid the argument being personalised or indeed restricted to human terms, the "so what" involves either a genetic or psychological abnormality in any organism.

The purpose of life (and I use the term advisedly, as it is not a purpose, more a result of the will to live) is to reproduce. All living organisms have this in common. There is no other attribute that can be said to be as universal.

The result of successful reproduction, birth or division or seeding, will involve either a viable or non-viable organism. Here is Darwinism at work.

Quote
1) Homosexuals can't procreate (Gay rights issue)
Actually they probably can, they just don't usually.
Quote
2) It's important to keep your bloodline going (Abortion issue or people whom choose not to have children)
All organisms have a drive towards the immortality of their genes - a fancy way of putting, "Desire to reproduce." Small wonder that the act is probably the best pleasure you can have.
Quote
3) If people think like you do then human race would die out (This is said to Gays or to child-free individuals)
Strawman
Quote
4) Having children is so important and miraculous.
Bald statement without any proof - sign of low intelligence.
Quote
5) it's important for the establishment of civilization
Strangely enough, if you look round, civilisation is already established. It always has been. Whatever the condition, this is civilisation.

Who says these things? I don't hear them, I don't read them. Perhaps it's different in the UK?

Quote
I personally cannot have children and i don't want to have children.
I can say with authority that until you have a child, you do not know whether you want one or not. Really. Your statement is akin to saying, "I'm not eating that, I have never tasted it." When you taste it, you might like it.

I was not bothered one way or the other about having children. My wife appeared to be opposed. Two came along, and they were fine. I had lots of fun and, of course, a few painful times. My wife is the archetypal concerned and doting mother

To be fair, I find the same objection to (mainly women) who become obsessed with the idea of having children - especially when they cannot have them.
Quote
I don't think that can cause any problems to society. People may say it's selfish, but we're all selfish.
I fail to see what is selfish about anyone not having children. Perhaps you could explain the logic? However, it will be irritating if you suddenly become resentful at having to pay taxes for other people's kids to be educated, or make a point of displaying your excess income whilst parents struggle or complain that holiday accommodation is expensive because schools have broken up or adopt a political attitude that reflects these or other unbalanced views.

I am in no doubt that the human race will end in a mess of its own waste products and lack of food and water. This is why we are not knee-deep in bacteria or overrun with wombats - the inability to find the essentials for life cut down the population of any organism to manageable levels.

Be depressed, there is absolutely nothing that can be done to save mankind from going down this road.

You want to improve the lot of starving children in Africa? Excellent, you're increasing the population beyond what the land can support. And what will that child grow up and do? Yes, that's right - reproduce.

You perhaps want a reduction in the overall mortality rate? Fine, but you're increasing the population beyond what the land can support.

What about irrigation schemes, genetics modified plants and animals? Fine... for a few years but this will only allow an increase in the population such that the crash will be more painful.

How about a cure for crippling diseases, blindness, mental illness? Do that and, shortly after puberty, they will all start to breed.

You want to adopt a child (from a third world country)? Go ahead, it is a drop in the ocean.

</rant>
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 03:48:33 PM by Graybeard »
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline Traveler

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2050
  • Darwins +142/-2
  • Gender: Female
  • no god required
    • I am a Forum Guide
    • Gryffin Designs
Re: just how important is procreation?
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2012, 04:17:23 PM »
I didn't engage in procreation when I became a mom.  I adopted a little girl who needed a family.  And it was the most joyous, amazing, life altering thing I've ever done. 

I recognize families as those families define themselves.  I don't care about legal documents that state that someone is married to someone else, or bloodlines of children or siblings.  I recognize the reality of complex families, with absentee parents or step parents or weekend dads and weekday moms.  I recognize the grandmas raising their grandchildren, and the young adult siblings raising their little brothers or sisters. 

Laws need to catch up to reality.  Gay and lesbian families are not going to go away.  And whether they have kids or not, they are real families.

YES!!! I decided a very long time ago that as long as there were animals being killed in shelters for lack of good homes, I would always adopt an animal in need rather than breed an animal. Ditto with having children. There are plenty of children who need love and a safe and happy home. I don't understand the need to pass on one's genes. Animal imperative I suppose, but I think we should grow past that as a requirement for parenthood or family-hood. I think we're better than that.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline Kimberly

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1044
  • Darwins +78/-1
  • Gender: Female
  • Apatheist
    • I am a Forum Guide
Re: just how important is procreation?
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2012, 04:59:13 PM »
I agree with everything that's been said. Quesi, like always, summed it up best.

I personally enjoyed procreation, and the birth process. I don't feel like my life would be complete had I not experienced the births of my daughters. But I don't understand why people are so caught up in other people's preferences. I really don't see why it's anyone's business let alone the governments what or how someone else defines or creates their family.

Besides as the OP mentioned there's enough people in this world, we should be thanking those who adopt, or choose not to procreate instead of judging them.
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline mrbiscoop

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 873
  • Darwins +28/-2
  • Faith is not a virtue!
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
              -Emo Philips

Offline jeremy0

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 694
  • Darwins +26/-12
  • Gender: Male
    • Economics and Technology
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: just how important is procreation?
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2012, 08:29:26 PM »
^^ that's me.  In order to return you to a good society, we need an intelligent people.  But since dumb people breed so damn much, the only option in returning order to this planet is to cause you to cease procreating. 

Because all the poo-flinging and flatulence is disturbing the atmosphere.  We were more noble as apes.  j/k, btw - bad taste of humor
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Offline Timtheskeptic

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2239
  • Darwins +20/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • atheist and loving it
    • atheist blogspot
Re: just how important is procreation?
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2012, 08:53:41 PM »
Greybeard, what exactly are you doing?

1) I have my reasons why i don't want kids, that is all i'm saying. I didn't say i would not like it, i just don't need a kid. I'm emphatizing the point that it's not so important.

2) The points i made which you responded were not my own but what i hear people say, you clearly missed the ones which i made a respond about.

3) Some people thinks that a person is selfish because they refuse to have children.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 08:57:55 PM by Timtheskeptic »
Me:What are you looking at Eminem?
Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline mrbiscoop

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 873
  • Darwins +28/-2
  • Faith is not a virtue!
Re: just how important is procreation?
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2012, 08:54:34 PM »
The problems that society face that are going to result in it's downfall, IMHO, are (in no particular order): overpopulation, tribalism, religion, capitalism. Feel free to add to the list...
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
              -Emo Philips

Offline mrbiscoop

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 873
  • Darwins +28/-2
  • Faith is not a virtue!
Re: just how important is procreation?
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2012, 08:57:13 PM »
Greybeard, what exactly are you doing?
I think he is spot on.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
              -Emo Philips

Offline Timtheskeptic

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2239
  • Darwins +20/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • atheist and loving it
    • atheist blogspot
Re: just how important is procreation?
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2012, 09:03:57 PM »
Greybeard, what exactly are you doing?
I think he is spot on.

i don't get it.
Me:What are you looking at Eminem?
Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline Traveler

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2050
  • Darwins +142/-2
  • Gender: Female
  • no god required
    • I am a Forum Guide
    • Gryffin Designs
Re: just how important is procreation?
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2012, 10:08:56 PM »
...3) Some people thinks that a person is selfish because they refuse to have children.

And I think that sometimes its the other way around. No one should have a child UNLESS they want one, they are prepared to properly care for it, and have a support network in place to help them. It takes a village ...

Anyone who does NOT want a child would be foolish to have one. And, yes, I understand that some people change their minds. That's fine. But what about all the people who don't want kids, somehow end up with them, and end up treating them poorly, or neglecting them, or otherwise opting out of the process? The last thing we need is encouragement for people to take a chance on something as important as child-rearing.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline Timtheskeptic

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2239
  • Darwins +20/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • atheist and loving it
    • atheist blogspot
Re: just how important is procreation?
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2012, 10:11:33 PM »
...3) Some people thinks that a person is selfish because they refuse to have children.

And I think that sometimes its the other way around. No one should have a child UNLESS they want one, they are prepared to properly care for it, and have a support network in place to help them. It takes a village ...

Anyone who does NOT want a child would be foolish to have one. And, yes, I understand that some people change their minds. That's fine. But what about all the people who don't want kids, somehow end up with them, and end up treating them poorly, or neglecting them, or otherwise opting out of the process? The last thing we need is encouragement for people to take a chance on something as important as child-rearing.

exactly, that is what i mean.
Me:What are you looking at Eminem?
Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline Kimberly

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1044
  • Darwins +78/-1
  • Gender: Female
  • Apatheist
    • I am a Forum Guide
Re: just how important is procreation?
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2012, 10:18:22 PM »
I can agree that it's unnatural to not want to spread your seed or procreate. But I can't agree that all humans have a drive or instinct to have children. I know plenty of people with no biological, mental, or emotional desire to procreate.

I thought it was insane when people said their "biological clock" or "maternal clock" was ticking. I seriously thought it was just an expression that people say. But I swear on everything that is golden two years before Kirilee was conceived I became overwhelmed with the desire to have a baby. It was all I could do to ignore the urge.

I hope I never hear that calling again because I can't afford to care for another mouth! I think my family is perfect with two children, and one more would be too much. If I hear that clock a ticking I'm gonna smash it with a hammer!

But I know people have never felt that. I don't think we should assume everyone does.
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Online Graybeard

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6193
  • Darwins +412/-14
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: just how important is procreation?
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2012, 11:15:59 AM »
Greybeard, what exactly are you doing?

1) I have my reasons why i don't want kids, that is all i'm saying. I didn't say i would not like it, i just don't need a kid. I'm emphatizing the point that it's not so important.

2) The points i made which you responded were not my own but what i hear people say, you clearly missed the ones which i made a respond about.
Tim,
(1) I am telling you why your (or anyone's) present judgement on having children is one that may be subject to change. Who knows what your opinion will be in 10 years time?
(2) Yes, I know you were quoting others, I was replying to those questions to others...
Quote
3) Some people thinks that a person is selfish because they refuse to have children.
If you read my reply, you will see that I am asking why they say this. Where do they think that the selfishness lie? Can you tell me why they might think it selfish?

I think you may have read what you thought I said, rather than what I did say.
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce