Author Topic: This is the type of thing I'm talking about  (Read 3937 times)

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Offline Death over Life

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2012, 01:11:21 AM »
Sorry for being late into the game, but there are a few things I wish to mention concerning Nodak’s post.

Third, no one has answered whether their dental woes are insurmountable despite brushing and flossing and regular check ups.....you know the boring stuff that you can't complain about and doesn't make a good bitch session? Same with regular exercises, eating right, sleeping well. Most of us here are living the USA and its a privilege that those basic things are available to every citizen.

You could say that, but statistics, like obesity for example, show otherwise. You do have a point that we can have good exercise at our fingertips, but balancing between a job and having to pay to even visit a gym, some people don’t have that money believe it or not.

The problem is not the people as people. They are doing their part in spending their money, creating demand. The problem is the rich people not willing to give up their finances to help the people have the ability to live a successful life without a strain on their wellbeing.

You are right though, America in general does have an instant access to regular exercising, so then, why are so many people’s teeth rotting out? People are eating right, so why do we have such high obesity rates? People are sleeping well, so why do so many people have bags under their eyes that are bigger than their eyes?

We have privileges, but if you don’t have money, you can’t access it. If these things were free to the public, you would then have a point.

I spent alot of time in the third world (spreading my greedy corporate wealth amoungst the communities i served) and they don't have those luxuries at their fingertips.   Hell, property rights alone would be something that could change their lot in life....or even access to toothpaste....or well trained ethical doctors and veterinarians that want ot invest in their communities.

This sounds like the direction the USA is heading to regardless.

As a disclaimer, i am the sole owner of a corporation that you guys so despise and think are the ruin of America. I provide jobs, service, wealth, and the extra strain on my business for the welfare state you think you are entitled to, could make it go away. 

What is this corporation then? What is the name and website of it?

Funny, i treat my employees well and they make the business even more profitable......most successful business operate that way. You don't survive long if you don't. When you say "corporations" what and who do you actually mean? Can you name 5 that do all the evils that you say and are still successful?

Since you asked:

Wal-Mart
McDonalds
(initially) K-Mart
GM
BP
Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac
Bain Capital
Let us not forget about all these Churches from the likes of Benny Hinn and Joel Osteen.

Instead of ragging on corporations, it would be a better place for everybody if corporations did act a bit like Costco, but Costco is a rarity, not the commonplace. My area has no Costco, but instead, are contemplating on building a 2nd Sam’s Club in addition to the one we already have, with a Wal-Mart super center.

As a side note...you don't have to go to college  to be successful. More important that you learn a valuable skill and how to manage your finances.... And make logical choices.  How many woe-is-me stories could have been prevented by critical thinking?

We know. For example, check out my avatar. Now, horrorcore rap may not be your thing, but check out how those 2 high school drop-outs became successful in life. They have a very cool story to tell, and I have mad respect for them for that.

Also, keyword is successful, not rich. I mention this because most of the money they make, they donate it to the poor of Detroit, Michigan, and they go and give their money back to the community that buys their stuff to begin with. They don’t hoard their money, they don’t live in Mansions, they don’t carry around expensive knick-knacks, they give it back to the community that made them successful. That is what the “rich” in monetary value are supposed to be doing, not hoarding it for themselves while making the lives of everybody else miserable.

Perhaps wearing a condom, brushing and *flossing* twice daily, not buying $4 coffee every day, living where you could make a living and build a life, setting boundaries w toxic people, doing a monthly breast exam and yearly pap smear, driving the speed limit, living below your means.....you get my point. Give me a scenario and lets walk through it.

Having to go to bed hungry because you pay your bills or eating a small meal to make it through the day while going into debt. How do we walk through that?

I say those that can't "go out an kill something and bring it home" in the past died out for a reason....they didn't contribute to the health of the community. And before you lambast me for being a social Darwin...which i am not... I employ several disabled adults....yep, my greedy corporation allows disabled adults to feel a sense of accomplishment rather than the joy of government hand outs.( although they get those too).

That is the very reason we are having the problems we are having! I agree with this statement! However, the rich in general are the ones not contributing to society! The poor people who barely make enough to live contribute more to society!

I’ve posted this before and I’ll post it again:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/29/irs-study-income-tax-wealthy-rich-americans_n_1553885.html

In the year 2009, I, who made less than $20,000 for the entire year, paid MORE TAXES than over 10,000 people who made between $250,000-$1,000,000 for the year. So, I pay more and give more money to the government to help them out than 10,000 people who make over 10 times the amount of money I make, and I am to be disgruntled at the poor crying foul? This is one of those pfft moments.

We don’t care about rich people being rich or poor people being poor. We care about everybody doing their part in society, and the 1% are NOT doing their part in society, and we are calling them out on it.

I think the only reason why you are lashing out at the opposition Nodak, is because you are trying to make this about your own corporation and you as a person when it’s nowhere near the truth. We aren’t talking about companies who do the right thing and play it fair and contribute to society. We are talking about money-sucking vampires like the Waltons from Wal-Mart, or Mitt Romney with his Bain Capital, or the rest of the GOP.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2012, 06:24:55 AM »
I have to take issue with one thing jeremy0 said. Supply does not create demand. Demand creates the need for supply.

Definitely.  It really is surprising to me how few people understand this -- particularly the extremely wealthy, who, in attempting to garner ever more wealth at the cost of others, don't realize that they're shooting themselves in the foot.

Probably the most important element to a healthy economy is a large and stable middle class, because we're the ones who buy stuff.  We buy cars, television sets, and sometimes homes; we eat at restaurants, things like that.  And that creates jobs.  You can't have an economy composed of only the wealthy and the working class, because such an economy will collapse.  Unfortunately, ever since the Reagan years, the middle class has been more or less steadily shrinking, and today we're starting to see the results.
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Offline shnozzola

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2012, 07:13:28 AM »
Nodak - here's a scenario  (lets ignore the failure of flossing for now)

     A friend from Puerto Rico just turned 59.  Good, decent fellow.  He is a plant doctor.  By that, I mean, if you take your houseplant to him, with his experience with fertility, water, soil, nutrients, bug sprays, pruning, etc. – he will pretty much will heal your plant.  He does not speak English real well, he has no high school diploma, let alone any college, but he has been the “doctor” for million of dollars worth of greenhouse plants for many years here for a farmer in my area. 

He has diabetes.  He also can not see very well any more. So now that the farmer has retired, and the company has closed, my friend, who is shy and not well spoken, but has contributed mightily to the area economy, can not find a job, let alone the health care setup he needs to properly “heal” him.  At this point in his life, he certainly doesn’t have the skills needed to set up his own business.  He would not be considered to have the "smarts" needed to climb the American business ladder.

What do we as an American society owe the thousands of individuals like this when health care costs are too high for them?   Does a majority (hmm, wasn’t there a so-called “moral “majority at one time) of America feel we owe these types of people nothing – not even attempts at a better health care system?   On second thought, maybe you, Nodak, are also for Obama's attempt at repairing the current health care system that I feel does not work.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 08:07:33 AM by shnozzola »
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Offline Grogs

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2012, 11:11:29 AM »
A seemingly off-hand remark made by Robert Benmosche the CEO of AIG (AIG) has become a bit of a viral online debate, as people of all ages and walks of life weigh in on the idea of bumping up the retirement age to 80. While Benmosche's comments to Bloomberg suggest the age increase is needed to maintain the level of benefits we have been promised and are accustomed to, not everyone is on board with the idea.

One problem with this idea is that it's extremely classist. I have a job where I go in, turn on the computer, run simulations and write reports for 8 hours, and then go home. I can imagine doing that when I'm 80, assuming that I don't have Alzheimer's or some other condition that affects my mind. To quote the guy from Office Space, "It would be nice to have that kind of job security." But what if I were a roofer or a landscaper. What percentage of people are physically able to do a job like that at sixty, much less for twenty more years. So what do we do for people for those types of jobs? It seems like our choices are 1) let them retire at a reasonable age, 2) provide retraining for a less strenuous job, 3) disability, 4) just say "screw 'em!" and let them die off. It seems like, in large measure, the U.S. is leaning towards option #4 these days.

For the rest of the thread, it seems like there's a huge lack of empathy here. *I* worked hard and made the right choices, *I* got lucky and didn't have any insurmountable tragedies occur along the way, and *I* have done OK, so *you* should have been able to succeed as well. I understand that thinking because I used to think the same way. The thing is that I've come to realize that a few bad decisions or bad breaks can happen to anyone. Get [a girl] pregnant in high school, born with a genetic [i.e., pre-existing] condition, buy a house just before a market crash, get laid off, get cancer, get into a car wreck, get sued, get swindled out of your life savings, etc.

The impact of these bad decisions/bad luck is inversely proportional to the person's wealth. Many of the poor walk a tightrope - they're one minor catastrophe away from from disaster, e.g., car breaks down -> can't get to work -> get fired -> can't afford to get the car fixed -> can't search for another job -> can't pay the rent -> evicted. More money means one is less affected by bad luck / bad decisions, so they can weather more before it becomes a disaster. The fabulously wealthy like your Mitt Romneys and Paris Hiltons can make dozens and dozens of mistakes with relatively few consequences, and I don't think it even occurs to many of them that it isn't that way for everyone. It's like an SNL spoof of the Suze Orman show I saw a few years ago. The caller says he's completely bankrupt and unemployed, and she keeps offering advice like, "Well, OK, you're going to have to sell your vacation home" or "You might want to think about withdrawing some money from your trust fund now."

Offline jeremy0

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2012, 02:08:16 PM »
I have to take issue with one thing jeremy0 said. Supply does not create demand. Demand creates the need for supply.

Definitely.  It really is surprising to me how few people understand this -- particularly the extremely wealthy, who, in attempting to garner ever more wealth at the cost of others, don't realize that they're shooting themselves in the foot.
Good points, everybody.  We're getting into good conversation now.  And I have to clarify the above - both versions are correct.  It's a cyclical pattern in a closed system - supply supplies the demand, the demand supplies the supply.  Simply put, its a circular flow of money where people are paid in order to make purchases.  These purchases fuel the companies they work for.  Then they get paid again, make other purchases, etc.  That's the cycle.  So in affect both statements are indeed correct. 

That's how to view it in a closed system.  That's why as long as money is at least moving through the hands of people, it doesn't matter if we have rich people - but money in the stock markets being just traded or money just piling up - that doesn't go through the hands of most people.  It doesn't do any good for the health of the economy.  It's because it's taking money out of the cyclical system. 

Yes, you have to have a strong populous.  We used to have a term the middle class is the backbone of the economy.  It sure as hell is.  Keep up the good posts, guys..
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2012, 02:58:21 PM »
A seemingly off-hand remark made by Robert Benmosche the CEO of AIG (AIG) has become a bit of a viral online debate, as people of all ages and walks of life weigh in on the idea of bumping up the retirement age to 80. ...
The problem with Mr Benmosche is that he is so rich that he is in a position to tell you that money is not important."

The problem with Mr Benmosche is that he runs an insurance company - if you can only collect after 80, then his profits will rise.

The problem with Mr Benmosche is that he has reached a position where everyone is under him and everyone says "Yes" to his ideas - now he is believing his own lies and stupidity.

Quote
There's a difference between austerity and just moving out the retirement age," says Lee Munson, Chief Investment Officer at Portfolio, LLC and the author of the book Rigged Money: Beating Wall Street At Its Own Game. "Most people aren't functional at that age."
Mr Munson, on the other hand, is still in the real world.
Quote
As it is, the retirement age is already creeping higher and is up to 67 now for anyone born after 1960.
Yes, it is an unfortunate result of the financial crisis.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 03:00:15 PM by Graybeard »
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Offline shnozzola

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2012, 12:35:59 PM »
Rant alert below - its all been said before.

 Here is the current problem, IMO – maybe with American economic democracy as a whole.  People want the government to pay for more and more things, and they want taxes reduced.  That’s it – and it can not be done.  But the American problem is that in order to get elected, both republicans and democrats promise to increase government services and reduce taxes, and people are allowing that ridiculous logic – leading to the mess.

We are also seeing that style of government being exported to Europe, and Greece and Spain are following right along, wanting the same illogical action from government – again – more services, lower taxes.

Add to that  derivatives, and a mortgage system that since the 60s has blocked and resold mortgages to keep making money off money where there really was no money to be made, and then to keep the system moving, began reducing regulations and allowing mortgage speculation to sell based on a future price that eventually caught up with itself.

Where it seems deadly foolish is to allow business/ republican thought to continue to lower regulation, claiming it will solve the problem.  Probably there should be 2 banking levels – (1) Conservative savings and checking, with low to modest interest rates, and (2) the wild west derivative banking, where regulations are reduced, and Wall Street types, or anyone, lay their money down, understand the risks, and take the winning and losing in stride.   But the two can not be combined.

As other’s have said, the Reagan administration started a lot of the deregulation, and no Politician - Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama (in that they are also part of the wealthy class ) has had the foresight or political capital to stop the train – that’s why we don’t need a wealthy businessman as president, but that is all we ever get – and then it is all affected by what has been said above, that the wealth of the middle working class it what keeps the economy stable – and you would think that, in the long run historically, with people and their torches at the doors of the wealthy how many times world wide (you could even somewhat group Al-Qaida thought here - in that the only way to get Wealth's attention is through terrorism), the argument that wealth trickles down would have been once and for all shown to be not true, in the 1920’s.   How stupid we all are.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 12:38:49 PM by shnozzola »
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Offline jeremy0

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2012, 01:45:59 PM »
I would add that I brought this up because instead of things collapsing and seeing a correct fix to the problems, we are likely to see whatever the corporate leaders want. This means well likely hit a point where there is only healthcare, education, retirement, only for the rich. Unless some kind of miracle happens. That's why I brought it up. Unless the populous wakes up to the gravity of the situation we are getting ourselves into, it's only going to become a bitter end - eventually for all of us. Our leaders are playing politics instead of doing logical things. And nobody seems to notice the blatant laws enacted against their laws and freedoms. We have hit the point where most families are living by necessities only. I won't be around at that point in time to Apply the correct solutions. People will just need to have the knowledge and choose for themselves what they want. But since he majority of the population is too busy listening to the propaganda from tv news and their churches, I'm prepping for economic catastrophe after catastrophe. I just wonder what the bottom is.

Fact is if salaries continue to remain flat and the costs keep on rising for you guys, you'll all at least have the pleasant experience of losing your home, not being able to send your kids to college, not be able to afford that life-saving procedure or medication, and never be able to actually live your lives not having to work most of the week doing it. The reality is we're losing everything we've gained due to class warfare. And the only ones fighting are the rich. It leads me to believe that everyone is in denial, or maybe they don't even care. Either way, this is the downfall of the state, and there is currently no escape from the clutches.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2012, 08:17:33 AM »
Okay, you guys are acting like theists now.

First, quite a few ad homonym attacks.

Second, many many anecdotal pieces of"evidence" for your argument.  "my friend had an appendicitis during the *one* weekend he didn't have insurance " sounds haughtingly similar to "my friend had cancer and then after a prayer session, she was cured". Come on, guys, give me some numbers like i asked About chronic preventable disease vs acute non-preventable disease. Also give me some number on how much a pack of cigs cost per day vs investing or saving that money. (also, lung cancer is not the only thing smoking has an impact on...wasted money, heart issues, increased susceptible to respiratory illness, to name just a few)


 The average healthcare costs for a smoker from age 20 until death was $326,000.  The average cost for a healthy non-smoker from 20 to death was $417,000. 2.5% of Healthcare costs are due to Obseity related issues, but the obese person lives 6.7 years less.

The administrative costs in the US heathcare system are 31% versus a system like Canada or England where they are approximately 17%.


So no, there's nothing theist about it, unless you are calling math a religion.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2012, 09:26:27 AM »
I have to take issue with one thing jeremy0 said. Supply does not create demand. Demand creates the need for supply.

Definitely.  It really is surprising to me how few people understand this -- particularly the extremely wealthy, who, in attempting to garner ever more wealth at the cost of others, don't realize that they're shooting themselves in the foot.


And these supply side economists, they fall into fit of apoplexia when I point out the largest example of a suppy side system was Soviet Russia. That fact is a demonstration as why supply side economics do not work.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Quesi

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2012, 06:37:24 PM »
Also sorry to be late to this party.  But I just HAD to respond to this question. 

As a disclaimer, i am the sole owner of a corporation that you guys so despise and think are the ruin of America. I provide jobs, service, wealth, and the extra strain on my business for the welfare state you think you are entitled to, could make it go away.  Funny, i treat my employees well and they make the business even more profitable......most successful business operate that way. You don't survive long if you don't. When you say "corporations" what and who do you actually mean? Can you name 5 that do all the evils that you say and are still successful?

I’m sorry. I’m not sure I understand the question. What are you asking? You want someone to name 5 corporations that do “evil” and are “successful?” In what industry? And what sort of evil?
There is lots and lots of evil done by corporations in the name of profit. Some of it has to do with the acquisition of raw materials. Some of it has to do with the use of third world labor in the assembly process. Some of it has to do with fraud and misrepresenting profits and losses and manipulating tax systems and begging for federal (and local) subsidies. Some of it has to do with maintaining expensive lobbyist’s to promote the passage of laws that benefit the corporations at the expense of communities and consumers. And some of it has to do with manipulating the press (often via lawsuits) to ensure that substandard products or services are not presented as such in the media, or that their “evil deeds” in other countries are not documented.

I could write a full-length dissertation style document on each of these offenses. Or I could pick one specific industry and write a book on the multiple levels of offenses. Or I could pick a region of the world and focus on first world abuses there. Do you want contemporary scenarios, or historical ones? Are you looking for espionage style epics, which show the relationship between government leaders and corporate leaders and secret was fought to promote corporate profit? Do you want to hear tales of exploitation on the supply side? The consumer side? The tax payer bailout side? Do you want simple tales of corporations acting badly as “citizens” and members of the communities in which they gather resources of manufacture or market? Or do you want shoulder-shrugging stories of corporations who feign ignorance of what goes on in the mines or fields that provide the resources, or the factories that manufacture their products. Do you want the polluters? The manufacturers of dangerous and deadly products that have been marketed to the public over the years? The financial institutions that engaged in predatory lending practices?

So many potential directions to go in, I don’t know where to start.

Let’s start with raw materials and international human rights violations. I’m interested in the mining industry, so let’s take a peek at a couple of different raw materials that come from mines, in very different parts of the world, and have very different journeys through the corporate jungles to their end-product lives in the hands of consumers.

Let’s start out with coltan.  I’m hoping you’ve heard of it.  When refined, it turns into tantalum, a product that populates the inside of your cell phones and computers and just about any high tech thing you’ve got in your house.  The Bush years were a free for all on the free market, and as the demand went off the charts, the beautiful free market rose to the occasion with an ample supply to meet our needs.  In one 18 month period a few years back, the Rwandan military made $250 million from selling coltan to some of your favorite US high tech corporations, such as Motorola, Apple, Intel, Compaq and IBM.   

The only problem is, there is no coltan in Rwanda. According to a group known as Rights Monitoring, “Over the past ten years, wars for control of mineral resources have cost about five million deaths in the DR Congo, a forgotten genocide. Among these resources is one for which it is still fighting the coltan whose price has come in some cases above that of gold.”    http://www.rightsmonitoring.org/2011/08/report-the-distribution-and-the-exploitation-of-illegal-coltan-mining-in-dr-congo/  President Obama hates the free market, and in 2010 he issued an executive order prohibiting US companies from buying coltan from the region surrounding the Congo.  Now these companies have to buy it from places like Australia, where workers get paid a little bit more than the 70 cents per hour that they were risking their lives to make in the Congo.  But it is really the shareholders who suffer most.  Want a little more info?  Here you go.  http://www.globalissues.org/article/442/guns-money-and-cell-phones


Let’s go visit mines in another side of the world.  One of my favorite places on planet earth is the tiny Central American nation of Guatemala.  Guatemala has nickel mines.  Lots of people want nickel.  It populates your cell phones too.  It is great for food preparation equipment.  And of course, the US government buys it to make those little 5 cent coins they weigh down your change purse.  A Canadian corporation called SKYE Resources did most of the nickel mining in Guatemala until recently, when some pesky Mayan people started some lawsuits against them over land rights, and they sold their interests to some sucker mining corporation in Russia.  I’m not going to tell this story.  This is the rare rare case in which the affects of corporate practices was caught on film, and shown to the world. 

 

If you were paying attention to the beginning of the video, you might have seen some references to the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Guatemala in 1954.  That is a great story.  You see, a little company called United Fruit (later to become Dole Food Company) was making gobs of money selling bananas in the US.  And then the Guatemalans elected a president who wanted to enact this radical land reform, which would have granted land ownership to the Mayan people who lived on their ancestral lands.  It was the cold war era, and it wasn’t that hard for the good ole boys at United Fruit to convince the CIA to go in and overthrow the democratically elected government of Guatemala.  Which they did, throwing the nation into decades of civil war and conflict.  But fortunately, it has not impacted terribly on banana imports.  Want to learn more about the “secret” US overthrow of the Guatemalan government?  Here is a GREAT BOOK that I highly recommend. 

http://www.amazon.com/Bitter-Fruit-Story-American-Guatemala/dp/0674075900


But maybe you want something more contemporary.  And something contained in the US, without all that messy third world labor.  Let’s look at the financial industry.  It is clean.  No raw materials or assembly to deal with.  No foreign wars or governments to overthrow.  But there are a few dirty deals here and there.  And lots of government handouts, thanks to really good lobbyists.

Here in NYC, city tax payers have given over $2,500,000,000 of our city tax dollars (not federal, city) in “economic development subsidy packages” to a variety of financial institutions in the period prior to the 2008 economic crisis. Recipients of these subsidies include AIG, Bank of America, JPMorgan, Chase, Citigroup, Merrill Lynch and others. The purpose of these subsidies is to help these “job creators” to “create jobs” here in NYC. Each year, they are given a target of how many new jobs they are supposed to create with these funds. None of them ever seem to reach their targets. But in spite of severe city budget cuts (in the post economic collapse years) to schools, libraries, homeless shelters, literacy programs, centers for senior citizens, etc., the city continues to think that these subsidies are a good idea. Post economic collapse, Merrill Lynch got $12,500,000 of city tax payer money to create (I believe) 7000 jobs. They are 5000 short. But they seem to think that if taxpayers continue to give them our money, they will do better next time. http://goodjobsny.org/sites/default/files/docs/gjny_bailout.pdf

But I’m sure you’re saying “Silly NYC, bastion of liberal profligates.” Let’s talk about corporate subsidies that your federal tax dollars support. We all know that the oil companies are suffering. That is why we are all so willing to put out a few extra dollars at the gas pumps each week. Some of the CEO’s of these companies haven’t seen a 7 digit bonus in a couple of years. But times are tough all around. That is why annual subsidies for fossil fuel companies NEED to be about a trillion dollars a year. Now that is globally. But I promise, a chunk of your tax dollars are helping out. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jake-schmidt/phasingout-fossil-fuel-su_b_1600300.html

Do I support these evil corporations, directly and indirectly? Sure I do. I’ve got a cell phone in my purse and a few nickels floating around in there too. I love my imported veggies, especially in the dead of winter. I’ve got a 401K I’ve been putting into for a couple of decades. And although my financial advisor tells me I’m light on my large cap munnies, I cringe at the top investments every time he suggests a large cap munnie to balance out my portfolio. I’m getting ready to start a 529 college fund for my daughter, and I’ll face the same problems then. No matter how carefully I chose, I’m sure I’m investing in companies who represent everything I fight against. I know I’m doing it with my tax dollars. And my purchases. And probably with my hard-earned savings as well.

So are all of my investments and purchases clean? Of course not.

Are all corporations evil? Of course not.

There is Ben and Jerry’s, and the Body Shop prior to its L’Oreal takeover in 2006. I’ve owned shares of IMAX for many years, and I invested because I fell in love their end product on trips to museums. There are plenty of start-up and mid-sized publically traded companies that *try* to do good, clean, honest work, without exploiting labor, burdening the taxpayer, and by manufacturing products or providing services that make our lives richer or easier. And some of them do. Maybe your company is one of them.

There are times and places in which corporations seem so good.  Many years ago, in the golden age of the Detroit auto industry, assembly workers proudly drove the products they assembled to work.  They lived in nice little homes in the suburbs, and spent two weeks vacation at their beach house with the kids. 

But that doesn’t really happen anymore.  Assembly workers, even union members, generally don’t earn a living wage these days.  And most assembly is done overseas, by people who earn dollars a day for their labor, and most certainly could not afford to purchase the products that they assemble.  And the folks responsible for harvesting or mining the raw materials most certainly cannot afford the end products of their labor.  Here in the US, the bank tellers make $10-$14 an hour.  They don’t drive new cars or buy suburban starter homes or spend their vacations at a beach house on those wages.  And the pyramid structure doesn’t really allow many of the best and the brightest to move up “in the company.”  The coveted mid and upper level positions are taken by fresh MBA’s. 

The system is broken.  The computers and cell phones and photocopiers that we all depend on, you see, we could not afford them if the miners and harvesters and assembly workers were paid wages that would enable them to buy those sorts of things too.  At least not if they were manufactured by companies whose CEO’s make the sort of salaries and bonuses that CEO’s have come to expect.

Offline Gracie

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2012, 04:37:46 PM »
Also sorry to be late to this party.  But I just HAD to respond to this question. 

As a disclaimer, i am the sole owner of a corporation that you guys so despise and think are the ruin of America. I provide jobs, service, wealth, and the extra strain on my business for the welfare state you think you are entitled to, could make it go away.  Funny, i treat my employees well and they make the business even more profitable......most successful business operate that way. You don't survive long if you don't. When you say "corporations" what and who do you actually mean? Can you name 5 that do all the evils that you say and are still successful?

I’m sorry. I’m not sure I understand the question. What are you asking? You want someone to name 5 corporations that do “evil” and are “successful?” In what industry? And what sort of evil?  .....

What a wealth of information you've provided in this well researched response.  Sometimes it's difficult to remain silent on such important issues when reading posts with seemingly narrow minded views.  Wish I could give you a +1 now for all the time you dedicated to this one, Quesi.  Bookmarking to return when I have a higher post count.

« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 05:42:27 PM by Gracie »

Offline Quesi

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2012, 05:25:31 PM »
Why thank you Gracie!  I am very passionate about these issues, and I actually didn't really do any research for this piece, other than googling a few articles to back up some of the stuff that I was writing.  Human rights and social justice are important to me, and I have spent most of my life being angry at the wild income disparity that most people pretend isn't real.  Because I can't imagine thinking about these realities without becoming outraged and motivated to change the systems that allow this kind of disparity. 

Offline screwtape

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2012, 07:48:13 PM »
...and the Body Shop prior to its L’Oreal takeover...

L'Oreal is the devil.
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Offline shnozzola

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2012, 08:04:00 PM »
Quesi,
         Before I was in the  Peace Corps, my uncle was in the Peace Corps working with Guatemalan farmers building small chicken houses - he had picketed many times during the Reagan admin and said he would have gone to prison over what happened to the people of Guatemala.  (He also had a great time hiking up to the volcanoes.  :)  )
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Offline Quesi

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2012, 08:01:53 AM »
...and the Body Shop prior to its L’Oreal takeover...

L'Oreal is the devil.

What are a few dead and tortured animals if women look really beautiful?

http://lorealinoa.wordpress.com/2010/11/28/loreal-animal-testing/

Offline Quesi

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2012, 08:05:38 AM »
Quesi,
         Before I was in the  Peace Corps, my uncle was in the Peace Corps working with Guatemalan farmers building small chicken houses - he had picketed many times during the Reagan admin and said he would have gone to prison over what happened to the people of Guatemala.  (He also had a great time hiking up to the volcanoes.  :)  )

Guatemala is an amazing, beautiful, tragic place.  I've spent a lot of time there in the past three decades, and a lot more time working with Guatemalan refugees both in Mexico and the US.  And then I adopted my beautiful daughter from Guatemala.   So I have a strong emotional connection to Guatemala.  And I know a lot about how the land and the people have been slaughtered and raped, both literally and metaphorically, in order to facilitate increased profits for foreign corporations. 

Offline Quesi

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2012, 08:38:38 AM »
I’m really disappointed that Nodak hasn’t come back to comment on this thread.  I genuinely enjoy discussing the roles that corporations play in society.

You see, as an atheist, I don’t believe in an afterlife.  I believe that for every human being, this is our one life, and I see a huge percentage of humanity being cheated out of a fair chance at enjoying this one life on earth.  And I see corporate interests as playing a huge role in cheating many people out of the joy that life could offer them. 

We still have enough land on planet earth to produce the food that we need to feed all of us.  Food distribution is a problem, resulting in mass starvation.  But we have not passed the tipping point of supply/demand yet. 

We will soon.  Soon, the human population will exceed the planet’s capacity to provide food for all of us.  And corporate leaders are smart.  Food is the gold and oil of the future. 

But first world land is too precious.  We really need it for suburban sprawl.  So our smart corporate leaders are preparing for future food shortages by buying up cheap land, mostly in Africa, for the purposes. 

In Liberia, for example, 30% of the nation’s land was purchased by foreign investors between 2006-2011. http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/feb/02/global-land-grab-trigger-conflict-report

Thirty percent of the nation’s land.  Think about that.  The land was ripe for purchase.  After the civil war ended in 2003, a nation in chaos, with no infrastructure (think small government!) had few resources.  So selling land seemed like a good solution.

All is well in Liberia today.  The infusion of corporate money is lifting the children of the war battered nation out of poverty, and contributing to the nation’s infrastructure.  Right?

Here is a recent music video with footage of kids living in Liberia.  I think it is pretty clear that if these kids just pull themselves up by their bootstraps, the money being infused by foreign corporate interests will provide ample opportunities.  Don’t you think? 


   

Offline shnozzola

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2012, 09:29:44 AM »
Quesi,
            You may have heard this on NPR about planning the future of African agriculture.

Quote
In some countries of Africa, there's a land rush under way as investors claim farmland, establish mega-farms and try to cash in on high prices for food and biofuels. These deals are controversial. Critics accuse investors of dispossessing subsistence farmers.

But there's another side to this story. There are plenty of people working in economic development who believe that this surge of interest in African farmland, if it's handled well, could also be an opportunity for Africa.

Of course, the other side to the story (from NPR's part 1):

Quote
The company never followed through on its promises, she says. "As soon as they got here, with all their gear, they just went ahead and started their work. They went into the places where people had already planted corn, banana trees and sugar cane."

In fact, she says, the company plowed up crops that farmers were almost ready to harvest. She lost about 10 acres. None of the farmers got any money or new land.

It's still happening. Two men showed me the spot. One of them, Francisco Muine Penaciaia, is trembling with anger. The other, Vitorino Munalile, a very old man, shows no emotion at all. He's barefoot and has trouble walking across the rough, freshly plowed ground.


http://www.npr.org/2012/06/15/155095598/african-land-fertile-ground-for-crops-and-investors
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Offline Quesi

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2012, 10:24:59 AM »
Great NPR piece shnozzola.  I feel like this whole "landgrab" crisis is not getting the attention that it deserves.  The long-term implications of foreign corporations and hedge funds owning as much as a third of the land in a so-called sovereign nation are huge.  The short term implications are that :


Quote
"As soon as they got here, with all their gear, they just went ahead and started their work. They went into the places where people had already planted corn, banana trees and sugar cane."

In fact, she says, the company plowed up crops that farmers were almost ready to harvest. She lost about 10 acres. None of the farmers got any money or new land.


But I'm sure our pessimism is misguided.  The free market and corporate will certainly make it all right in the end. 
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 10:30:11 AM by Quesi »

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2012, 04:36:16 PM »
I was out of town for a while visiting that commie socialist hellhole that is Canada.  :D

But you all have carried the load quite well without my rants. Nodak was implying that I was lying about my co-worker who got seriously ill while uninsured for two days. I could give his name and home country so she could contact him, but what would be the point?

I have many other US health care nightmare stories, if she does not accept my co-worker's.

My sister's untreated bronchitis (no, she never smoked) during the time she worked a "temp job" at UPS that had no benefits and lasted nearly a year. When it got too bad for her to stand, she paid her medical bills with credit cards and later had to declare bankruptcy.

My frantic attempts on the phone and online trying to get a hospital to admit a young uninsured friend who had severe stomach pains. I had to drive her to another town to the only facility that would take her in. She also ended up needing an emergency appendectomy, under so-called "charity care", but was still dunned for the bills.

My own suffering several days with excruciating throat pain while uninsured, eventually putting the doctor bill for strep throat treatment on credit cards. Debt! Evil debt!

A diabetic guy with no insurance who told his friends to not call 911 if he fell into a coma because he could not afford the ambulance charge. And since he could not afford to buy his insulin regularly, he was very likely to fall into a coma.

Another man with a good job and good insurance, or so he thought. Until he got cancer. And maxed out what the company would pay for the chemo and radiation. His wife wanted to sell the house, but he decided he would rather die than live by making his family penniless and homeless. Luckily the insurance company upped his limit. But what if they hadn't? What is cost-effective about impoverishing a successful middle class family and putting them on welfare to save dad's life?

Nodak wants to live in a fantasy land where people get only what they deserve. If you are sick it is your own fault. You must have done something wrong. Like pick parents with the wrong genes. If you are poor, it is your own fault for not having a higher paying job. If you have a job with no health care, likewise.

People like Nodak want to blame ordinary people for having problems to find some reason why nobody should help them. They smoke, or are fat, or are stupid, or don't floss! Even the kids and babies. So screw 'em! Let them suffer! Get sick? Die, or lose everything you own. The US is the only developed country that operates this way.

Anwhat about the handful of incredibly wealthy powerful people who benefit from the suffering of others? Why should they pay any taxes? They deserve tax breaks and subsidies, those wonderful rich folks. So they can hide their money overseas or buy another yacht.

Such attitudes lead to violent revolutions. And then everyone loses.

Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #50 on: August 07, 2012, 12:44:15 PM »
Debt vs. serious health problems is the crisis of modern America. Credit cards are the medical bank for the uninsured.  My sister went into bankruptcy due to massive medical costs put on credit cards when she was uninsured. She suffered for months waiting in public clinics for care. She finally had to charge it because she had lost too much time off work. What should she have done? 

I had strep throat when I was uninsured and, after suffering for a week, finally had to go to the doctor. Paid for it by credit card. Paid and paid for months. How do you think people are supposed to avoid debt under these conditions?

Shameful that several third world countries can do better at health care than the wealthiest, most powerful country in history.


NG, don't you think this is a bit overstated? Serious health issues can definately lead to debt, but it is not the most typical reason why people go into debt by any stretch. Debt is most commonly acquired at a relatively young age and the main culprit is college followed closely by horrendous personal decision-making and money management.

Serious health problems and major medical situations are fairly rare percentage wise, especially among the non-elderly within the population. It would be interesting to see the numbers as it relates to the expense of healthcare that is non major and how those costs affect the overall costs we pay. In my opinion, minor care issues like your strept throat example and others would be best kept off of the insurance table and paid by the individuals in need of those services. Getting insurance and the regs and costs associated with it insurance out of minor care can only serve to reduce the costs of these services that are already relatively inexpensive http://www.minuteclinic.com/services/.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #51 on: August 07, 2012, 01:37:47 PM »
We would do well to define our terms so that the conversation flows well. When we are speaking of the rising retirement age, are we speaking of the age when one become entitled to the full social security benefit or something else?

I read a post (maybe the OP) that stated pensions failed mainly do to bad stock selection. Seriously? Pensions failed because they were poorly planned and poorly set up to deal with the demands that they have eventually come under. In other words, they were not designed to be able to deliver on what future generations of retirees would need and expect. Much like social security, the original pensions did not forsee having to pay retirees into their late 70's, let alone their 80's and 90's. The baby boom was not something they planned for either, so in the end it's not poor investing that's the root of the problem, it's a lack of foresight and therefore poor planning.

Because of this, either the age must be raised, or the promises must be broken. Can someone say UNSUSTAINABLE!


Nodak, are you really Dave ramsey?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 01:43:32 PM by Truth OT »

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #52 on: August 07, 2012, 03:53:30 PM »
Debt vs. serious health problems is the crisis of modern America. Credit cards are the medical bank for the uninsured.  My sister went into bankruptcy due to massive medical costs put on credit cards when she was uninsured. She suffered for months waiting in public clinics for care. She finally had to charge it because she had lost too much time off work. What should she have done? 

I had strep throat when I was uninsured and, after suffering for a week, finally had to go to the doctor. Paid for it by credit card. Paid and paid for months. How do you think people are supposed to avoid debt under these conditions?

Shameful that several third world countries can do better at health care than the wealthiest, most powerful country in history.


NG, don't you think this is a bit overstated? Serious health issues can definately lead to debt, but it is not the most typical reason why people go into debt by any stretch. Debt is most commonly acquired at a relatively young age and the main culprit is college followed closely by horrendous personal decision-making and money management.

Serious health problems and major medical situations are fairly rare percentage wise, especially among the non-elderly within the population. It would be interesting to see the numbers as it relates to the expense of healthcare that is non major and how those costs affect the overall costs we pay. In my opinion, minor care issues like your strept throat example and others would be best kept off of the insurance table and paid by the individuals in need of those services. Getting insurance and the regs and costs associated with it insurance out of minor care can only serve to reduce the costs of these services that are already relatively inexpensive http://www.minuteclinic.com/services/.

The health care calculus in the US is penny-wise pound foolish thinking. Conservatives say that health insurance should operate like car insurance. You pay for the little things and use the insurance for the big things.  But little things turn into big things if untreated. And people with budget constraints will let the little things go untreated until they can't stand it or until they are seriously ill. Like I did with my strep throat.

Why would you take time off from work and spend money to go to the doctor for something that you can live with? If people have to pay for small, minor health care issues out of pocket they will not go to the doctor until the problem gets really bad and more expensive. Covering minor things would reduce costs in the long run because the minor things would be less likely to become major if caught early.

Also, how is the lay person supposed to know that something is minor? They used to talk about the seven warning signs of cancer. Like a mole that changes shape or a mysterious lump. Not a major crisis, but you were supposed to go to the doctor if you had it. Who is going to go to the doctor about a mole or lump if they don't have any insurance to cover it? By the time the thing is really painful and scary enough to pay for a doctor, you have advanced cancer.
 
As for strep throat being minor, you have obviously never had it. It was extremely painful and made it impossible to work, eat or sleep. It is also contagious, so my strep throat can lead to you and your family having it.

"If untreated, strep throat can sometimes cause complications such as kidney inflammation and rheumatic fever. Rheumatic fever can lead to painful and inflamed joints, a rash and even damage to heart valves."
--Mayo Clinic website

A quick google search showed that I am not lying or exaggerating about medical debt. I personally know many uninsured or badly insured people who have ruined their credit with medical expenses, or whose health is at serious risk, like the guy with diabetes who can't afford to call 911. This should not happen in a civilized country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_debt

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-05/health/bankruptcy.medical.bills_1_medical-bills-bankruptcies-health-insurance?_s=PM:HEALTH

http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/18-ridiculous-statistics-about-medical-bills-medical-debt-and-the-health-care-industry-that-will-make-you-so-mad-you-will-want-to-tear-your-hair-out
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #53 on: August 07, 2012, 05:53:52 PM »
Conservatives say that health insurance should operate like car insurance. You pay for the little things and use the insurance for the big things.  But little things turn into big things if untreated. And people with budget constraints will let the little things go untreated until they can't stand it or until they are seriously ill. Like I did with my strep throat.

Why would you take time off from work and spend money to go to the doctor for something that you can live with? If people have to pay for small, minor health care issues out of pocket they will not go to the doctor until the problem gets really bad and more expensive. Covering minor things would reduce costs in the long run because the minor things would be less likely to become major if caught early.

People tend to let the little things go because they find them to be managable and/or bearable. The "little things" go untreated not because of budgets, but primarily because of apathy, inconvenience, or ignorance. People often do not care enough to act or they are in the dark as to the level of severity of their ailment.
Covering minor things increases the overall costs and in the end ends up drive prices up because of regulation, litigation, and other ramifications associated with covering everything. We must be careful not to make the faulty assumption that most minor things will become major things. Most do not.


Also, how is the lay person supposed to know that something is minor? They used to talk about the seven warning signs of cancer. Like a mole that changes shape or a mysterious lump. Not a major crisis, but you were supposed to go to the doctor if you had it. Who is going to go to the doctor about a mole or lump if they don't have any insurance to cover it? By the time the thing is really painful and scary enough to pay for a doctor, you have advanced cancer.
 
As for strep throat being minor, you have obviously never had it. It was extremely painful and made it impossible to work, eat or sleep. It is also contagious, so my strep throat can lead to you and your family having it.

It sounds more like an education problem as opposed to a financial or coverage problem. If I, a lay person knew something was going on with me and that something was potentially cancerous, Ima get it looked at somehow, someway because I have a vested interest in not getting cancer. If I as a lay person that has coverage and am rolling in dough but happens to not know the warning signs and I have a lump or something that isn't initially particulary worrisome, I ain't going to the doctor. People tend to seek medical attention when they have a personally compelling (e.i. a health condition THEY are concerned about) reason to do, not because they can or cannot afford it.

Unfortunately I am way too familiar with Strep. I am also familiar with the treatment and cost involved. Truth be told, it's relatively inexpensive. An $80 to $90 doctor visit at most plus the $30 for the Amoxicilon (sp?) used to treat it doesn't exactly threaten to put a person into bankrupcy. 

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #54 on: August 07, 2012, 06:15:30 PM »
...and the Body Shop prior to its L’Oreal takeover...

L'Oreal is the devil.

I unofficially smite you!  I must have my L'Oreal Extra Light Ash Blonde!  ;)
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #55 on: August 07, 2012, 06:29:45 PM »
...and the Body Shop prior to its L’Oreal takeover...

L'Oreal is the devil.

What are a few dead and tortured animals if women look really beautiful?

http://lorealinoa.wordpress.com/2010/11/28/loreal-animal-testing/

Arrrgh! WTF?  I'm going to Have to find a different hair color!  OMG!
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #56 on: August 07, 2012, 09:59:59 PM »
Conservatives say that health insurance should operate like car insurance. You pay for the little things and use the insurance for the big things.  But little things turn into big things if untreated. And people with budget constraints will let the little things go untreated until they can't stand it or until they are seriously ill. Like I did with my strep throat.

Why would you take time off from work and spend money to go to the doctor for something that you can live with? If people have to pay for small, minor health care issues out of pocket they will not go to the doctor until the problem gets really bad and more expensive. Covering minor things would reduce costs in the long run because the minor things would be less likely to become major if caught early.

People tend to let the little things go because they find them to be managable and/or bearable. The "little things" go untreated not because of budgets, but primarily because of apathy, inconvenience, or ignorance. People often do not care enough to act or they are in the dark as to the level of severity of their ailment.
Covering minor things increases the overall costs and in the end ends up drive prices up because of regulation, litigation, and other ramifications associated with covering everything. We must be careful not to make the faulty assumption that most minor things will become major things. Most do not.


Also, how is the lay person supposed to know that something is minor? They used to talk about the seven warning signs of cancer. Like a mole that changes shape or a mysterious lump. Not a major crisis, but you were supposed to go to the doctor if you had it. Who is going to go to the doctor about a mole or lump if they don't have any insurance to cover it? By the time the thing is really painful and scary enough to pay for a doctor, you have advanced cancer.
 
As for strep throat being minor, you have obviously never had it. It was extremely painful and made it impossible to work, eat or sleep. It is also contagious, so my strep throat can lead to you and your family having it.

It sounds more like an education problem as opposed to a financial or coverage problem. If I, a lay person knew something was going on with me and that something was potentially cancerous, Ima get it looked at somehow, someway because I have a vested interest in not getting cancer. If I as a lay person that has coverage and am rolling in dough but happens to not know the warning signs and I have a lump or something that isn't initially particulary worrisome, I ain't going to the doctor. People tend to seek medical attention when they have a personally compelling (e.i. a health condition THEY are concerned about) reason to do, not because they can or cannot afford it.

Unfortunately I am way too familiar with Strep. I am also familiar with the treatment and cost involved. Truth be told, it's relatively inexpensive. An $80 to $90 doctor visit at most plus the $30 for the Amoxicilon (sp?) used to treat it doesn't exactly threaten to put a person into bankrupcy.

I said they used to tell people about the seven warning signs of cancer. I remember the tv ads. I don't think they bother to do those ads anymore, because nobody is going to go to the doctor and pay a co-pay or deductible for something that does not hurt, bleed or keep you from going to work. The CDC found that black women and low income people in general have worse cancer outcomes for the same cancer, partly because they go for treatment much later.

People who have little experience with being low income say, "Just go to the public clinic or emergency room and have that lump checked." Yes. You take the bus there. And wait several hours sitting on a plastic chair, maybe with your kids, surrounded by other really sick, bleeding, hacking, coughing, drunk, vomiting people, to be seen for five-ten minutes? 

And you many not even be seen that day--the clinic closes, the doctor leaves, and they tell you to come back tomorrow. If you get there when it opens, you may get seen, as long as there is nobody sicker who they have to take first. And there always is somebody sicker if all you have is a lump or mole to be checked. Who has time to take off from work for that? You have to be awfully paranoid about that mole or lump.

Of course it is not the occasional $80 payment that puts a person into bankruptcy. (But that can still be too much to pay for a doctor visit if the wage earners are making 10 bucks an hour. That is an entire day's pay: two bags of groceries or new shoes for the kids or the month's electric bill.) It is the diagnosis of a serious illness, like cancer, or the out-of-pocket costs of treating a chronic illness like diabetes that leads to bankruptcy.

I was being snarky when I said you had no experience with strep. I apologize for that comment. But I was not working when I got strep. I waited for over a week, suffering and getting worse every day. I did not have $80. My sister, who I was staying with, did not have $80. We had to put the doctor visit and drugs on her credit card.

Incidentally, people in Japan are like hypochondriacs compared to Americans. They go to the doctor for every little lump and bump. They generally get same day or next day appointments. And everyone has insurance coverage. Their health outcomes are very good. And they pay far less then we do for health care.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: This is the type of thing I'm talking about
« Reply #57 on: August 07, 2012, 10:02:37 PM »
In case anyone is interested, here are the seven warning signs of cancer. Hope you have insurance. :-\

C- change in bowel or bladder habit (colon cancer)

A- a sore that doesn't heal on skin or on mouth

U- unusual bleeding or discharge from rectum, bladder, or vagina

T- thickening or lump in the breast tissue

I- indigestion or difficulty swallowing

O- obvious changes in a wart or mole (skin cancer)

N- nagging cough or hoarseness (lung or throat cancer)


Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_7_warning_signs_of_cancer#ixzz22v6zf5vL
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.