This is the type of thing I'm talking about

[jeremy0]

If we're not careful, this is the type of things I'm seeing that is likely to happen in the near future or the foreseeable future...

Bear with me on this post - it's going to be lengthy.  There's a lot to say.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/breakout/ready-until-80-172821954.html
[from the clip]
A seemingly off-hand remark made by Robert Benmosche the CEO of AIG (AIG) has become a bit of a viral online debate, as people of all ages and walks of life weigh in on the idea of bumping up the retirement age to 80. While Benmosche's comments to Bloomberg suggest the age increase is needed to maintain the level of benefits we have been promised and are accustomed to, not everyone is on board with the idea.

"There's a difference between austerity and just moving out the retirement age," says Lee Munson, Chief Investment Officer at Portfolio, LLC and the author of the book Rigged Money: Beating Wall Street At Its Own Game. "Most people aren't functional at that age."

As it is, the retirement age is already creeping higher and is up to 67 now for anyone born after 1960. In fact, one of the reasons people like Munson (and me) "don't think it's going to work" is as much about mortality rates as it is about expectations.

"The mortality curve is starting to flatten out," Munson says. "I wouldn't expect 20 years from now we are all going to live to be 100 or 110." He adds that the last thing the U.S. needs now is to "end up like the Middle East, where we have a bunch of young, unemployed people getting pissed."

(which is what I'm waiting on - the last paragraph)

[and then this]
"We have to realize that we need to lower our expectations, because, simply stated, the baby boomers didn't save enough, and we're running too big of a deficit," he says. He argues that it is "disingenuous and dishonest" to suggest that we can maintain our current quality of life and level of spending into the distant future.

What's wrong with this statement?  It's that they blame the baby boomers for 'not saving enough for retirement.'  It was, in fact, only due to a failing system.  Let's use some analytical thinking: 
In the past, we had pensions.  That failed due to bad investments in stocks - the corporations lost most of the funds and then we arrived at 401K.
401K was doomed to fail from the start.  Why? Because it automatically creates winners and losers - it's trading stocks only - on the stock market - which is an organized form of gambling.  And in gambling, usually the house wins unless you really, really know how to play.  The house in this case is the rich, and investment organizations - financial institutions.  25% of baby boomers can retire today.  Only a fourth.  What if I told you I could organize a system in which everyone could retire, unless they worked low wage jobs all their life, in which we could shift the social security system to the poor and disabled?  That's the reality of the kinds of things I'm seeing.  And it seems nobody else is really seeing this.

The other things I'm seeing is what will happen should we fail to apply an appropriate solution.  Let me elaborate, if you will.

Clinton was the first of the later stages of the game to realize you can't have a growing economy with a huge budget deficit and growing debt.  He did something about it and it worked.  We have a lot to learn what went right with his administration, and a lot to learn what went wrong during Bush's.  What would bush do is a good question to ask right now - to know what not to do.  Then ask yourselves - what would republicans do.  I don't care what your political affiliation is - with the republicans, our answers to healthcare, retirement, and a social safety net will be to effigy the poor, disabled, and the middle class in favor of supporting those on top.  They think they're policies on job creation will work, when in fact it has been an utter disaster.  I can point to the dropping of taxation on corporations and individuals that went right into the pockets of the rich instead of creating actual jobs, I can point to the massive practice of offshoring and outsourcing from the bush admin, which was supposed to make things cheaper, be an utter disaster of massive amounts of money - a limited resource - being sent overseas permanently.  I've seen the ramp-up of hiring h1-b's and illegal immigrants instead of supporting the current citizen population.  I could go on and on.  Things went wrong.  We applied the wrong answers.  That simple.

However, if we aren't even identifying the problems, and are therefore failing to address the real problems, I would rather have solutions that favor the majority of the population instead of the well-off.  The reason is simple: supply creates demand.  Without companies giving jobs and good wages to its employees, there is no demand for other companies, as well as potentially their own company.  This is the actual cycle of supply and demand - and it only works this way in a closed system.  Once you introduce trade and operations with other countries - introducing other variables into the equation - it changes, no longer holds true.

To see the type of stuff I'm talking about, visit realeconomics101.wordpress.com.  I've outlined economic reality vs. economic theory.  Spread that stuff around, and you'll have a bunch that wakes up to the fact that our leaders are influenced by economic theory that doesn't hold it's weight in bullshit. 

These things are things I would want people to see right away - there are in fact answers that don't include things like raising the retirement age to 80; privitizing healthcare, privitizing social security, and dropping medicare.  We can have solutions that guarantee retirement, a good education if you really want it, a change in careers if you like, a healthcare system that anyone can afford (why are all doctors millionaires today, when that used to not be the case - just ask an elderly person), changes in energy production and usage that isn't heavily reliant on fossil fules, the list goes on and on.  We just need to identify the problem, and solve the problem.  That simple. 

Better solutions are out there.  They just aren't being explored because people are unaware of their options, the potential for other newer forms of systems to live and thrive, and they also aren't aware of the tidal wave of shit that we'll all have to live through if we fail to act appropriately.

If you don't want to see this kind of crap in the news put into political legislation - because my brain tells me these corporations - like the guy in the referenced article - are all the government is listening to - then I suggest you get on board with these youngsters and create actual change for yourselves.  Make everything entirely visible.  Use reason.  Use intellect.  Use your brains...

The reason we are failing today is simply because we are living at a point in time when we are catering to people that are treating their own clients, customers, and employees like 'idiots', or 'muppets'.  This attitude surfaced in the 80s, and it needs to change.  You guys need people who have the clout to make a lot of noise.  You need people who are intelligent to be talking publicly.  You really need change right now.  I'm waiting on the rest of you to recognize what a mess we've all gotten ourselves in...

I started posting on this forum because I saw religion as a blocker to achieving what I want - a new system that thrives for everyone built around 21st century concepts.  A society that works for everybody.  It can be done.  It really needs to be done right now.  But it won't happen with everyone's attention diverted to issues that don't matter.  It won't happen with people thinking Jesus will come back and fix it.  It won't happen with people concentrating on heaven or hell, or having their heads in the clouds - fixated on things that aren't real.

Then, people just need to have the balls to actually hold people accountable....  it requires an awakening of what kind of tomorrow you really can build - regardless of your leaders.  It begs the question of whether or not you are really comfortable with the type of tomorrow that your leaders are going to bring to you. 

Just some thoughts.  I'm still waiting...

[Nodak]

Jeremy,
Let me ask you......are you debt free? If not, then i suggest you start changing yourself before you try to change the whole economic system. If you are, doesn't that financial freedom make you independent of the system? Shouldn't everyone be like that.? Perhaps if everyone was, government, corp, etc. wouldn't really have much power.

[jeremy0]

It is impossible to own a house without having debt.  That said, yes, I am basically debt-free...  The only financial problems I have is when I'm unemployed.

I don't hold the individual to blame for having debt.  I have two friends who are in major debt for having an intestine procedure done at the hospital to save their lives.  How does it cost that much for a standard procedure.  Doctors didn't used to be all millionaires - even the physicians.  I know others who have lost housing due to unemployment, and that unemployment was caused by the outrageous lending practices of banks to make variable-rate loans in order to get more money out of the individual, causing those individuals to lose their homes.  I've seen variable rate lending practices surface all over the place that it is now the standard.  We used to only have flat rates only, and housing didn't cost so damn much in the past.  Other people I know are so busy paying off their student debt that they can't afford much of a lifestyle.  People used to buy a house as soon as they graduated.  Most people I know can only afford used cars. 

These are all things that are necessities in order for America to function as a middle-class - a house, cars, healthcare, and college.  Now all four are costing so much that it is restricting what the middle class would otherwise be able to pay for.  This creates a downward trend in demand across the nation - as the cost of major and minor necessities go up in comparison to income, and the things that people should enjoy as a standard become luxury items; the less demand you have for everything.  How the hell should healthcare or housing be a luxury, might you tell me?

I remember when gas used to be 75c/gallon.  The corporate standard of 'rip-off america' and 'take care of the shareholders first and we don't use the term loyalty for the customer or employee anymore' attitude has raped the middle class to oblivion.  That's the structural damage that has been done.  Don't rely on the middle class to be able to afford to keep bailing people out.

You placing the blame solely on personal debt is ridiculous.  That debt was a necessity in order for people to have things they should have by rights.  The blame is instead on the shoulders of the corporation, and individual greed.  Tell me how corporations are sitting on piles of cash and the rich has seen a drastic increase in income while everyone else has been getting kicked out of their homes, losing jobs, not getting jobs, and getting homeless by the day..

This is the kind of stuff I'm looking at and hoping will start gaining traction on many levels..

http://news.yahoo.com/sluts-unite-against-republicans-rush-limbaugh-100132902--abc-news-politics.html

[Poseidon]

Jeremy, I agree that you can not have a house without having attendent debt. You can, by all means, own a house with no mortgage.  Even with a mortgage free house, there is hidden debt in the form of taxes and insurance and sometimes maintenance. Taken in that way, a homeowner is always in debt even if you live in your minivan.

[jeremy0]

I want to further explain, why does a bank have the need to unexpectedly raise the interest rates of any loan? 
How is it that by going by the stock market, only 25% are able to retire today, when everyone has been putting into retirement all this time - generally the same amounts?
Why is it that when we give rich people more money, they do nothing; but when we tax them, they pass on the cost to their employees?
Why is it that when we give corporations tax breaks or when they have piles of cash, they just pay it to the shareholders (and no, the major shareholders are the only ones banking - the owners); and why is it when we tax them further they shrink their workforce as if they had no money?
Why is it that we have CEOs of major financial institutions referring to their clients as 'muppets'?
Why is it that a car costs 20-40,000 dollars, or 10-20% the cost of a house?
Why is it that rent has risen so much now that it is the same or more expensive than buying?
Why is it that gas has risen from 75c to $3.50/gallon within 20 years?
Why is it that the economy has grown, yet we can no longer afford medicare or social security?
Why is it that so many americans are out of work and yet h1-bs are all employed?

In a scenario, it was the early 80s.  My dad worked by himself, made 30,000/yr.  We could afford a house with three bedrooms, a car, a truck, a boat, a yard with a garage, and everything we could have needed or wanted. 

Try doing that today.  You can't.  Costs of things have grown so much, and the income in comparison depleted so much, that instead of having a "we'll rebound" thing going on, we are hitting structural maximums in which something needs to be done to change the structure in order to recover.  We still haven't recovered from the housing market, mind you, which was caused primarily by sub-prime loans and variable-rate loans, as well as overgrossed outsourcing and offshoring, a massive trade deficit, and spiraling national debt.

What I'm saying is that our structure has reached a tipping point, and the only way out is to fix the structure.  Nothing is any longer sustainable on the path we are going in.  And our leaders don't have the correct answers - heck, they aren't even identifying the problems.  That's what I'm sayin'...

Eventually, all the costs - from government debt, to corporate expenses, to personal riches, all get passed on to the middle class.  And the middle class can no longer afford it.

[Poseidon]

I feel your pain, most of us do unless we happen to be in the upper echelons of earning power. I use the term earning loosely. I am not poor by most standards but I don't think that I can afford to have my mouth fixed. I have shopped several dentists and they are all happy to do the needed work for something like $30,000. No way in hell the work will take more than 20 hours.  I can go to Costa Rica or Budapest to have the work done for about half that figure including airfares and lodging. Yes Budapest. Tourist dentistry is a big business in Hungary as it is in CR. Either of these places have the same state of the art facilities that we have in this country. They have equal skill levels and educations too. So why in hell does it cost so much here. Is it greed or does tort law become a major factor?

I read a book recently: Nickled And DImed.  A published female writer of some substance went out to live like the lower middle class does. It was to be the stuff of her new book. She went to Key West, Minneapolis, and Portland Maine. She had to take jobs, when she could get one, for seven dollars an hour. Her rent for a veritable flop house was $500 or more. That left damned little to put gas in the junk car, go to the laundromat, and to get food. Woe be unto her if she had needed medical attention.

Her hardships were many and her life style was just one of work and despair. She played the game fair and square, she made do with what little she could earn but her life was miserable just like the millions of other Americans who are in the same jam. Contrast that with the pay scale and living standard of honchos at Morgan Stanley, or Citibank or even your local insurance executive.

Something is terribly wrong with our economy and I am afraid that we may not be able to fix it.

 

[Death over Life]

Something is terribly wrong with our economy and I am afraid that we may not be able to fix it.

Although I'm not suggesting it, I think there could be one way to fix the problem.

Let Romney become president with a Republican house and senate, and since the GOP is backed by NRA, everybody goes out and buys a gun, not for shooting each other, but to wage all out Pancho Villa war on the 1%. 1% vs. 99%, we have the numbers. Once again, I'm not advocating this, but I think this is getting closer to the reality of this being the only way to fix the economy. Pretty Robin Hoodish if I do say so myself.

As mentioned in the other thread though, I'm seeing Obama doing this peacefully without any guns or civil wars, hence why I'm advocating him for President. We may be damned with gloom and doom, but a little patience may go a long way at this point. Either that, or immigration, take your pick.

[jeremy0]

Let Romney become president with a Republican house and senate, and since the GOP is backed by NRA, everybody goes out and buys a gun, not for shooting each other, but to wage all out Pancho Villa war on the 1%. 1% vs. 99%, we have the numbers. Once again, I'm not advocating this, but I think this is getting closer to the reality of this being the only way to fix the economy. Pretty Robin Hoodish if I do say so myself.

As mentioned in the other thread though, I'm seeing Obama doing this peacefully without any guns or civil wars, hence why I'm advocating him for President. We may be damned with gloom and doom, but a little patience may go a long way at this point. Either that, or immigration, take your pick.

The interesting points here:
1.  With Obama and Dems, we may have a peaceful way out if they can actually pull out all the stops, swing the mighty left fist, and put the right solutions in place.  It's a long shot, but so is:
2.  Let Romney become president and have a rep. ran congress.  Let everything crash hard.  Then have a revolution to fix it all, after it's gotten messed up beyond recognition that we have to analyze dental records in order to tell who the victim was (the american public)

Either way, I see some solution presenting itself.  We just need to be patient and pick our time/options...

[Death over Life]

Let Romney become president with a Republican house and senate, and since the GOP is backed by NRA, everybody goes out and buys a gun, not for shooting each other, but to wage all out Pancho Villa war on the 1%. 1% vs. 99%, we have the numbers. Once again, I'm not advocating this, but I think this is getting closer to the reality of this being the only way to fix the economy. Pretty Robin Hoodish if I do say so myself.

As mentioned in the other thread though, I'm seeing Obama doing this peacefully without any guns or civil wars, hence why I'm advocating him for President. We may be damned with gloom and doom, but a little patience may go a long way at this point. Either that, or immigration, take your pick.

The interesting points here:
1.  With Obama and Dems, we may have a peaceful way out if they can actually pull out all the stops, swing the mighty left fist, and put the right solutions in place.  It's a long shot, but so is:
2.  Let Romney become president and have a rep. ran congress.  Let everything crash hard.  Then have a revolution to fix it all, after it's gotten messed up beyond recognition that we have to analyze dental records in order to tell who the victim was (the american public)

Either way, I see some solution presenting itself.  We just need to be patient and pick our time/options...

Exactly, and agreed. The main problem we are all having is the patience, even I have this problem. We have been so used to the fast food industry of life where it's I want it, and I want it now. As we agree with, our fixes will need to be strategized, hopefully the peaceful way.

I should mention that if we do attempt to try a revolution now, especially since everything of our future is uncertain, it will just fall into chaos. This idea needs to wait at least until after November, when we will see what our future will bring.

[screwtape]

Let Romney become president with a Republican house and senate, and since the GOP is backed by NRA, everybody goes out and buys a gun, not for shooting each other, but to wage all out Pancho Villa war on the 1%. 1% vs. 99%, we have the numbers. Once again, I'm not advocating this, but I think this is getting closer to the reality of this being the only way to fix the economy. Pretty Robin Hoodish if I do say so myself.

I like this, but the 1% would then be justified to fight back with unstrained violence.[1]  And they have the now highly militarized police on their side.  Did you know many police forces now have drones?  Similar to the ones they blow up "terrorists" with in Pakistan. They have the capability to be outfitted with shotguns and grenade launchers.  The also have tanks. 

While I like love the idea of the Waltons and the Kochs running for their lives, I do not think it would actually work out that way.  I think it would result in hundreds, if not thousands of dead poor people and a pretense for martial law and further erosion of the constitution.

1.	As oppoesed to the mildly restrained violence they currently use on the Occupy crowd

[jeremy0]

^^ "pretense for tons of dead people and a further erosion of the constitution."  Yeah, that's why we need to try to get stuff done the right way instead of waiting for an absolute disaster..  Takes some honesty, openness, and responsibility from all angles.

I just wonder which will actually happen, is all..

[Nam]

I'm almost debt free just $7,000 more to go. Hopefully by the end of the year, and I can get the internet put back in my house.

-Nam

[Death over Life]

Let Romney become president with a Republican house and senate, and since the GOP is backed by NRA, everybody goes out and buys a gun, not for shooting each other, but to wage all out Pancho Villa war on the 1%. 1% vs. 99%, we have the numbers. Once again, I'm not advocating this, but I think this is getting closer to the reality of this being the only way to fix the economy. Pretty Robin Hoodish if I do say so myself.

I like this, but the 1% would then be justified to fight back with unstrained violence.[1]  And they have the now highly militarized police on their side.  Did you know many police forces now have drones?  Similar to the ones they blow up "terrorists" with in Pakistan. They have the capability to be outfitted with shotguns and grenade launchers.  The also have tanks. 

While I like love the idea of the Waltons and the Kochs running for their lives, I do not think it would actually work out that way.  I think it would result in hundreds, if not thousands of dead poor people and a pretense for martial law and further erosion of the constitution.

1.	As oppoesed to the mildly restrained violence they currently use on the Occupy crowd

I do know exactly what you are saying screwtape and I agree with it. However, there are a couple thoughts to address though.

The 1% are already justified in making their corporations people while letting us be slaves. The 1% have already done what they can so that way our voices can no longer be heard, and 1 of the political parties have adapted their wishes as their policy. The 1% have been and are living off the backs of the 99% who they thank by letting them barely make it in life, have to choose between being homeless, carless, and starving, or sick, or a combination of such. The 1% have been living a life of comfort while the 99% have been living a life of hopelessness and despair.

The point of mentioning this is because, if we keep continuing, the 99% are really going to give a rats-ass about unstrained violence, drones, and martial law. We USA civilians have got to be one of the most stubborn on this planet, and thus, as with the forefathers, we would rather choose death than enslavement.

Considering Police forces and Military, even they are feeling the pinch of the 1%. My job pays more money to me than those soldiers off in the Middle-East going off and dying and getting dismembered, and I don’t get paid a lot of money. In fact, I’m still considered poor by the government. I think when this revolution happens, if it does, the police and military forces will be turning on the same Corporates and Corrupt Politicians. And let us not forget, many of the citizens who are complaining about the USA right now are US Veterans whether it is from the Iraq/Afghanistan Wars, or from the Korean Wars, and even some from the Vietnam Wars are willing to defend their freedoms, even if it is from the same country they served.

I don’t know the exact # of the 1% or the 99%, but in a population of over 300 million, the 299 million that have finally lost it, will indeed be responsible for a revolution, as long as we don’t enter civil war first.

This idea proposed will never work until the whole nation itself rises, not now where everybody is just getting fat, sitting on their couch.

^^ "pretense for tons of dead people and a further erosion of the constitution."  Yeah, that's why we need to try to get stuff done the right way instead of waiting for an absolute disaster..  Takes some honesty, openness, and responsibility from all angles.

I just wonder which will actually happen, is all..

I agree, but it all hangs in the balance of who becomes President. Only when Obama or Romney is elected, we will know which future the USA will head into. The bad thing is, due to the heavy polarization the US is heading to, it may inevitably be the wrong way to go, which throws this idea of honesty, openness, and responsibility out of the window, no matter what goes on.

Overall, all of this is, is a wait and see what happens scenario.

[Hatter23]

Something is terribly wrong with our economy and I am afraid that we may not be able to fix it.

Although I'm not suggesting it, I think there could be one way to fix the problem.

Let Romney become president with a Republican house and senate, and since the GOP is backed by NRA, everybody goes out and buys a gun, not for shooting each other, but to wage all out Pancho Villa war on the 1%. 1% vs. 99%, we have the numbers. Once again, I'm not advocating this, but I think this is getting closer to the reality of this being the only way to fix the economy. Pretty Robin Hoodish if I do say so myself.

As mentioned in the other thread though, I'm seeing Obama doing this peacefully without any guns or civil wars, hence why I'm advocating him for President. We may be damned with gloom and doom, but a little patience may go a long way at this point. Either that, or immigration, take your pick.

if the bulk of Americans are too stupid to vote in their own best interest, I think the shooting war is out of the question

[Bad Pear]

Many American gun owners would sooner shoot those who are critical of their corporate overlords then shoot the overlords themselves. It's a strange economic version of Stockholm syndrome. Just ask your local gun toting, card carrying member of the NRA who he thinks is to blame for our current state of affairs and then try to tell me you want him packing when the gloves finally come off.

I think I'll continue to sit this out in the good ol' PRC. At least here I know who my enemies are.

[nogodsforme]

To the barricades! The people against the 1%! Could be a good movie or video game. In real life, not so sure.

Although the gun-toting NRA folks think they would be able to win in an all-out against the powerful, they are delusional. It would only take a few daisy cutters --megachurches on Sunday, shopping malls on Saturday, and day care facilities on Friday. It's all over in a 3-day weekend.

We are not as ruthless as they are. No conscience--that's how they got to be the 1%.  They would not even miss a night's sleep while we bury our dead children. Teflon morals.

The one thing that might tip the balance in any armed rebellion? The police and national guard refusing to fire on their own friends and relatives. The Russian Revolution redux. And that did not end well either.

So, back to the drawing board.

[Death over Life]

The drawing board would come back to education. This is the forefront of how a successful revolution would happen.

Atm with religion having the NRA gun toters strangled, that is why I'm saying there would probably be a civil war over an actual revolution. We are at the point where it's going to be 50% vs. 50% of the US population. I'm not saying that to be paranoid, I'm saying that because of how polarizing our politics are becoming, and since we are shredding away the middle ground, you are now either far-left, or far-right, with no common ground, and thus, may be the undoing of the USA as a nation.

Of course though, a lot of how I think is based off of speculation, and not so much what would actually happen, since I can't predict anything. But whenever you do notice a pattern within human nature, and you compare and notice how humans repeat history, you'll see why I think the way I do. Another example of speculation would have been the livelihood of the USA if Hitler won WWII instead of the Allies. There is a book I need to read called along the lines of If Hitler had won the war, and there was a show I saw one time that gave examples as to this scenario if it happened, and only 1 video game has been made on this speculation. In all honesty though, the US opposition to the Nazi USA would be very similar to the Forefathers and their opposition to Great Britain during that time.

[Nodak]

I'm almost debt free just $7,000 more to go. Hopefully by the end of the year, and I can get the internet put back in my house.

-Nam

Nam, congrats! You are the foundation of what will make this country great.....not those that sit and complain in comfort.

To all those who complain about corporations and their "power".....Stop using their product and disempower them....oh wait, that might mean you will have hunt for yourself, take on the risk yourself, not be able to blame your failures on something else....etc.

It is 100% possible to buy a house without debt.... I am living proof. Yes, i have to pay taxes, etc. but i also don't have to spend time plowing my road after a blizzard, educating the children, protecting myself from foreign invasion.....i think that's a fair trade.

And sure, you can go to other countries for medical procedures.....just remember you are not under the same protection as in usa...how will you determine competency? What if there are complications? Wrt to dentistry...have you been brushing and flossing twice daily and going to the dentist for regular preventative care? Or could you not be bothered with that and now you have major dental work to be done and are whining becuase now there the business owner ( dentist) has to charge for their services to fix what *you* could have prevented?

[jeremy0]

To all those who complain about corporations and their "power".....Stop using their product and disempower them....oh wait, that might mean you will have hunt for yourself, take on the risk yourself, not be able to blame your failures on something else....etc.

Nodak: 

If people suddenly stopped using 'nasty corporate products', we would lost jobs, lose houses, etc.  You didn't read my blog at all.  It's the stability of the supply side that creates the demand side.  It's a circular cycle.  When you break down either side, the whole system suffers.  And that's just how it works in a closed system.  Lose money overseas, and you're doing even worse as a system.  The way out is to have a healthy population that can live in comfort and be able to afford 'wanted' goods over 'necessity goods only'.  Just wanted to clarify what you are saying here.  Nothing against you or anything,

[nogodsforme]

I'm almost debt free just $7,000 more to go. Hopefully by the end of the year, and I can get the internet put back in my house.

-Nam

Nam, congrats! You are the foundation of what will make this country great.....not those that sit and complain in comfort.

To all those who complain about corporations and their "power".....Stop using their product and disempower them....oh wait, that might mean you will have hunt for yourself, take on the risk yourself, not be able to blame your failures on something else....etc.

It is 100% possible to buy a house without debt.... I am living proof. Yes, i have to pay taxes, etc. but i also don't have to spend time plowing my road after a blizzard, educating the children, protecting myself from foreign invasion.....i think that's a fair trade.

And sure, you can go to other countries for medical procedures.....just remember you are not under the same protection as in usa...how will you determine competency? What if there are complications? Wrt to dentistry...have you been brushing and flossing twice daily and going to the dentist for regular preventative care? Or could you not be bothered with that and now you have major dental work to be done and are whining becuase now there the business owner ( dentist) has to charge for their services to fix what *you* could have prevented?

I understand all the "personal responsibility" stuff.  Stay out of debt. Pay as you go. Live within your means. Sounds good. Until you  have a health crisis and need immediate care.

If you have gum disease and are at risk of losing your teeth, it's your own damn fault so pay up or shut up. But what if, as a child, your parents could not afford dental work for you and you enter your twenties with massive dental problems?

I went through this myself. As a high school student, I negotiated a reduced rate with the dentist next door to where I worked, and in my twenties paid for braces one month at a time while working low wage jobs. They had to pull seven teeth to get my mouth to close correctly. I now have amazing teeth and I care for them like the precious jewels they are.

But that was in the 70's and 80's. Costs are way higher than what I paid, but wages have not kept pace. I have watched several young friends who wait tables, work retail, etc, suffer with serious dental issues--they need many thousands of dollars of work. They have no insurance, can barely make ends meet and don't live high on the hog. Dental care takes a back seat when rent, gas, electric bills need paying.

My advice to them is to go to Mexico and get the work done at a fraction of the cost, including the trip. Put the whole thing on credit cards. Better than ignoring the problems until you start losing teeth. Otherwise, we will see a lot of folks in their 40's with false teeth and dental-related health issues.

Debt vs. serious health problems is the crisis of modern America. Credit cards are the medical bank for the uninsured.  My sister went into bankruptcy due to massive medical costs put on credit cards when she was uninsured. She suffered for months waiting in public clinics for care. She finally had to charge it because she had lost too much time off work. What should she have done? 

I had strep throat when I was uninsured and, after suffering for a week, finally had to go to the doctor. Paid for it by credit card. Paid and paid for months. How do you think people are supposed to avoid debt under these conditions?

Shameful that several third world countries can do better at health care than the wealthiest, most powerful country in history.

[jeremy0]

See, now that's what I mean.  Bring the millionaire doctors and dentists back to making realistic salaries, and bring the costs of healthcare down, and you'll effectively have much more demand for other products and services, an overall much healthier economy, etc.

The reason is because as I outlined, statistics show that the average american can't afford both healthcare and all the other necessary items in their life, as of 2010.  That's a picture of the average.  What's actually happening is people are either foregoing needed procedures or healthcare because they know they can't afford it, or are indebting themselves for major periods of time in order to save whatever life they want to save. 

Costing an arm and a leg sounds more like where we are currently at.  It's because pay and expense of these healthcare providers have been rising, ridiculously, compared with the prices and cost of everything else in the nation. 

When I do statistics, and I see that the average case spends half their money on healthcare, that's a really telling statistic.  If it cost 1/4, 1/5, or better, 1/10th of their take-home money, we are in much less murky water economically.  Hell, we could practically blame a lot of our economic problems on the fact that healthcare costs so much.

And yes, I would base the solution on taxation, pay up-front to give these guys a budget they must meet for the year, contract that amount slowly over time until it's back to reasonable levels[1]  I would model the rest directly off of France, since its the world's best working system that we know of.  I know the solution is rather socialist, but the fact remains that it's better to pool money so it's a blended threat, rather than putting all of the pressure on the individual should the worst happen.  At least with the former, it's a financially affordable thing to do, that ensures everyone at least access to care...

1.

We already fund these groups to a good degree already, anyway directly from the government - it's just not ALL of their revenues.  They're raping the rest out of their patients.  Why does it cost 2,000 dollars for heart medications?  That's absurd.  Why tens of thousands of dollars to have a short week-long stay at a low-quality hospital?  Insurance doesn't exactly cover as much of that expense as you would expect..

[Nodak]

Sorry for the late reply....I don't get to the chatter folder often.

Why don't these people have health care insurance? There are plenty of jobs that provide that as a benefit. Perhaps its not a "cool" job in a " cool" place....but its stable and you can build a life. For example, a son of one of my friends is twenty something, with a college education and wait table in NYC....can't afford health insurance so uses emergency room for primary problems. I ask my friend, why doesn't he move to somewhere w lowere cost of living and decent jobs w beneifts.....answer: he likes nyc experience. Well, fine, but don't expect me to pay for your "experience"....which i am because i do pay for health insurance to cover those drifters. I have no sympathy for them.

Second discussion point: what percentage of americans have serious medical conditons which could not be prevented? This is a serious question. Definately cases of medical bankrupcy, but how common are they really and why did they not have health insurance? What did they think was worth more than health insurance?....an iphone and plan? A big house? Living the nyc experience? I've observed alot of people just ignoring the potential of a health crisis while they blissfully play. 

Dental work is rarely an emergency. Your friends needing mJor dental work that they cannot seemingly afford.....did they brush and floss twice a day and stay away from sugar? Were they putting away $50 /month over years or buying lattes instead?

You "believe" dentists are making money hand over fist.....do you actually know the cost of doing business? If you haven't owned your own company, likely you are just whinig that you have to pay for a valuable service instead of being grateful that a well educated, well trained individuL *took on the risk* and invested themselves and alot of their nest egg to be able to provide that service to you. 

I do believe the power of the demand side to change the supply side.....go hunt your own food, or grow it, make your own clothes, unplug yourself, go off the grid, and live your life free.....it will be a hard life, but a satisfying one! One reason i have been able to crawl out of debt (over $500k from opening my own business) is that my living expenses are almost zero. Own my (very small) house, butcher my own steers, have good friends that are hunters and share thie harvest, no access to TV and shopping centers ( very rural area) and thus really don't get brainwashed w "needing something" that i really don't need, but i make sure i have disabitlity, health insurance, eat healthy, excercise, and sleep 8 hrs a day. Maybe not something i can brag about ot my friends.....but i am stable and secure....and free from whatever the government decides........is that a Libertarian?

What, jeremy, do you think has more power to change a government/country......free citizens or forced "welfare"?

[Nodak]

One more question......what is the actual health care costs of chronic diseases like obesity, alcohlism, smoking vs true 'couldn't have prevented it' medical costs?

[nogodsforme]

Sorry for the late reply....I don't get to the chatter folder often.

Why don't these people have health care insurance? There are plenty of jobs that provide that as a benefit. Perhaps its not a "cool" job in a " cool" place....but its stable and you can build a life.

I guess the millions of people in the US who lack access to health care are just not as smart as you are. Simply get a job with benefits, stupid! And reduce your living expenses any way you can-- move back in with your parents and live in their basement, you loser. Don't go into debt, not even for college. Don't date, don't fall in love, don't get married and for god's sake don't ever have any kids. Just go to your loser McJob and go home. You can always join the army and get health care. Sucks to be you.

Sure, there are many jobs that offer health insurance as a benefit. If.

1)If you are lucky enough to find one of those jobs. Good luck, especially if you are over 50, mentally handicapped or low-skilled.  I'm sure employers are lining up to hire you and give you good benefits. Get out there and compete with those college-educated 20-somethings.

2)If you last past the three-month probation period during which you have no benefits. Some businesses routinely fire a certain number of new hires right before they qualify for benefits. And you get to start over looking for work.

3)If you work full time. Many people are working 25-38 hours a week with no benefits because less than 38 and 1/2 hours a week is considered part-time. Wal-mart is known for this practice, keeping most employees just short of full-time, and actually advising them to apply for public health benefits. I know some people who are working two of those jobs, 50 hours a week or more with no benefits.

4)If you are actually considered an "employee".  A lot of companies save money by hiring people as "contractors" so they don't earn any benefits at all. When I was a social worker, several of my coworkers who covered the night and weekend shifts were "contractors". No matter how many hours they worked, they got no benefits. Some were also on public assistance of some sort to get health care for their kids.

5)If you can afford the employer contribution. I worked at jobs where the benefit was offered, but almost nobody took it because it cost too much. I have a young friend who works in a law office as a legal assistant. She pays $300 a month for the health benefit her employer offers. Her husband, a construction worker, has no health insurance for much of the year because his work is seasonal. She told me that she would like to put her husband on her plan, but it would be over $500/month for the two of them, almost one/fourth of her income.

6) If you can afford the copays. Are you sick enough to pay $60 out of pocket for each doctor visit, plus the prescription costs and any tests ordered? If it does not seem too serious, you don't go.
 
7) If you can afford the deductible. Are you sick enough to go to the doctor when you have to pay everything up to $2000 before the health insurance kicks in? If it does not seem too serious, you don't go.

8 If the health insurance company does not deny your claim and refuse to pay up. Some companies routinely deny a certain percentage of covered claims, knowing that many folks will be too worn down to keep writing and calling to get the claim paid.

9) If you don't fall through the cracks, even with insurance. A co-worker changed insurance on a Friday. The new policy started on Monday. He got  severe stomach pains over the weekend while he was not insured. No hospital would admit him unless he was willing to go to the emergency room by himself and pay for all costs incurred. If he had called 911, he would have faced several thousands of dollars just for the ambulance. He spent a painful, miserable and frightening two days hoping he would get better, calling insurance companies and hospitals trying to get help as he got worse. He was told that he should have bought an interim health policy just for that weekend!

He was lucky he did not die, because it turned out to be appendicitis. He is from a European country and he could not believe we live like this. (He has since returned to his country, where everyone has national health care and he will never have to face anything like that.)

My husband and I pay $800/month for health insurance for our family of three. And we still have out-of-pocket co-pays and deductibles. And we still face random denials of payment for stuff we (and our doctors and dentists) thought was covered. My dental insurance just denied my dentist's request to replace my night guard. It broke and I repaired it myself with superglue, and now it has broken again.  I have to pay $518 out of pocket, glue the old one together again, or buy a $25 over-the-counter version and hope for the best. My dentist is appalled by the situation. So am I.

That is what happens to people who are working at those good jobs that offer health care! People without insurance are even worse off. This is the best health care system in the world?  No, just the most expensive.  I don't blame the doctors, dentist, nurses, technicians, etc.-- they actually work for their money. I blame the health care executives who make a billion bucks to not give us any care.[1]
 
We in the US are living in a fantasyland if we think we can go on with a health care system with this many holes in it. We are one bad contagious disease away from a real disaster. One sick person can infect hundreds with typhoid or tuberculosis. It could be the ten-year old playing with your kid in the schoolyard, the college girl making your salad in a restaurant, the immigrant lady who makes up your beds at the motel, the homeless guy who sits next to you on the bus. They are uninsured and under-insured.

Nobody wants to pay anything for anyone else, even if it benefits all of us. How can people claim to be patriotic and to love America if they have such disdain for the suffering of their fellow Americans--yes, even the fat people who smoke and drink? Even more important, how can people be so short-sighted? What are the lost productivity costs of uninsured people who are sick and lose time from work or infect co-workers, clients and customers? Can't you see that covering everyone is in your own best interest? Or would you rather keep paying inflated costs so everyone can be "free" to suffer, go into debt or die in the street?
 

1.

In fact we pay more than any other country because we are the only country in the world with a private health industry that sells us care for a big fat profit. Plus, when people without insurance get really sick they have to be cared for in the most expensive way possible-- the emergency room. When they can't pay their costs get passed on the the rest of us.

[jeremy0]

Nodak:

You have shown me that you can't understand anything I talked about in regards to economics.  Because you can't understand it, I'll not bother replying to your ignorance..

what i mean when i say that the supply creates the demand is this.  Imagine you are the owner of a clothing store.  Imagine this is the only thing purchased or sold anywhere in the country, just to make it easy on you. 

So you are the owner of the only store in the country.  You employ all the people in the country.  When you pay them, they use their money, in turn, to purchase items from your store.  Then you make money.  Then you continue to pay your employees, and the cycle continues.

But let's add a twist - you're the owner, and you make more money than you'll ever realistically use.  You continuously want to make more and more, and so you take in more money from your business than you pay to your employees, year over year.  What does that eventually mean?  Yes - it means you'll end up with most of the money, and your employees will be really, really poor.  If you keep going, you'll go out of business.  But wtf do you care, you're now a multi-billionaire?

Actually, the condition exists that it doesn't matter if you even make more money the next year than you made the last year - the fact that it isn't moving through the economy to a large degree and more and more of it piles every year means that the owner can still make the same amount year over year, and still we'll hit the condition of the absolutely poor 'everybody else'.  This is why economists say 'we're screwed in the long run - ignore it'. 

However, you can adjust the economy in a way that eliminates this condition - and I wish I could live long enough to see it actually happen...

Now imagine that same hypothetical, only with all the different types of business we see today.  Supply creates the demand.  Without supply giving the demand side (people and other businesses) money, there is no demand for their products or other companies' products, in turn. 

That is why I seriously state that if you are a business owner, and you want to ensure the success of your wealth, taking care of the customer #1, the employee #2, and yourself #3 instead of yourself #1, means you will have a healthier and longer-lasting economy before hitting the almost inevitable 'depression'...

Now imagine that the supply is only paying just enough for the average family to purchase only necessity goods.  How much demand does that leave for the stores that sell goods that aren't necessities (luxury items, wanted goods)?  Very little.  This is the situation we face today.

Now imagine that in our current system, we have hit a point where things need to be altered in order for the continuence of the economic system..  This is why I am referring to healthcare costs, costs of education, not being able to retire, costs of utilities, etc. - these are the problem.  They have bloated in cost so much compared to the rest of the nation's purchasing power, that we can no longer sustain a healthy economy.  Bring the costs down, and you'll be back to good economic health.  That's exactly the only way to fix the mess we are currently experiencing.

It isn't a matter of 'well, I'm doin fine and I would rather say that it's everybody else's stupid fault for getting into debt'.  I don't care to hear that rubbish.  People didn't have a choice but to get into debt.  You want healtchare?  You'll need a degree.  = debt.  You want kids?  You need a house = debt.  You want to drive to work?  You'll need a car.  = debt.  A bad thing happens to you in your life medically, mentally, or dentally, = debt.  instantly.  For the rest of your life.  For the average american. 

And to the rest of your point, Nokia:

Stop smoking it's a preventable health cost.  Yeah, we know now that there are numerous other things that are actually responsible for lung cancer as well, besides smoking.  Sure, smoking causes lung cancer.  It's preventable.  But you can't prevent driving down the road alongside diesel engines, breathing in dust cleaning, or breathing in radon gas that happens to be seeping into your home.  These are just three other examples of things that cause lung cancer, do you want to tell these unfortunate people that they are still at fault?  Sure, we can prevent every major illness.  You're a genius - we should have been going back to hunting and gathering, ignoring health concerns because it's all avoidable.  Sure...

Now I wish you could just for once understand just wtf I'm talking about...

[nogodsforme]

Yes, Nodak, we can have the 40 million+ uninsured folks in the US start scavenging for wild food along the highways and byways, hunting for game (what game?) and living off the land (what land?) like in the neolithic era. People can live on bugs and grubs, wear leaves and live in mud huts.  How that will solve the problem of not having access to health care, do tell. Have hospitals started accepting possum meat, raccoon pelts and wild berries in exchange for knee replacement surgery without letting me know?

Uninsured people can be allowed to live on some rich guy's farm in exchange for labor, like 19th century sharecroppers. Or like 14th century serfs, where the lord of the land got to rape the women whenever he wanted. Maybe we can go back to slavery, why the hell not? Once you have nothing else left to sell, you still have yourself.

Anything is better than that horrible European-style social safety net, right? Those stupid Japanese (who smoke like crazy and eat more salt than a sperm whale) with their commie universal health insurance.  Who cares about longer life spans, less financial stress and lower infant mortality rates? At least we have our freedom.

I know a woman who got severe headaches that turned out to be a big brain tumor. She and her husband had good insurance. She went to the doctor as soon as possible, got the CAT scans, had the operation, wore a stylish short hairdo for a while and is now back at work. Other people with the same diagnosis have to wait until the pain is intolerable, put doctor visits on credit cards, go into bankruptcy, lose their homes and go on welfare to finally get the treatment they need. I guess they should have saved $50 a month, given up cable tv and spent more on organic food. Or something.

[Gracie]

....which i am because i do pay for health insurance to cover those drifters. I have no sympathy for them. 

Obviously you have major problems with "drifters" (your term) but don't seem to have any harsh criticism towards corporations who receive large subsidies from the government, yet pay no income taxes. There were a total of 30 major ones that paid none in the last 3 years while making $160 billion.

Second discussion point: what percentage of americans have serious medical conditons which could not be prevented? This is a serious question. Definately cases of medical bankrupcy, but how common are they really and why did they not have health insurance? What did they think was worth more than health insurance?....an iphone and plan? A big house? Living the nyc experience? I've observed alot of people just ignoring the potential of a health crisis while they blissfully play.

Really?  My observations in many regions of the country are quite different. 

Also, a study from Harvard University indicates that 78% of people who filed for bankruptcy did in fact have health insurance, debunking the myth that medical bills affect only the uninsured. Most of those were middle class, 56% owned a home and had attended college. In many cases, illness forced breadwinners to take time off from work, losing income and job-based health insurance.

A rare or serious illness/injury could easily result in hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical bills.  Those expenses would delete savings/retirement accounts, college ed funds, home equity, etc.. Once those have been exhausted, bankruptcy is most likely the only option, regardless of whether the patient was able to apply health coverage to a portion of the bill or not.  Unexpected events do happen in life, you know.

.....I do believe the power of the demand side to change the supply side.....go hunt your own food, or grow it, make your own clothes, unplug yourself, go off the grid, and live your life free.....i

Believe it or not, everybody is not able to hunt their own food and have a garden large enough to live "off the grid."  Is having a computer with internet access considered "living off the grid?"

I think nogodsforme and Jeremy0 have responded to your concerns with very well written, thought out responses.   

It seems like the "pull yourself up by the bootstrap" crowd has a real disdain for helping others until an unexpected tragedy affects them. Even then, their situation is always deserving, unlike the "less fortunate" they so despise. 

[nogodsforme]

I have to take issue with one thing jeremy0 said. Supply does not create demand. Demand creates the need for supply.

When the economy is bad and very few people have money, no matter how much supply there is, there will be no demand, because the people have no money.

You can't run a successful economy on a handful of billionaires and millions of impoverished people. Even if a rich person buys more than a poor person, does a rich guy buy a million shirts? A million cars? Of course not.

But a million regular people with some money will buy a million shirts, and a million cars. And the shirt maker and auto maker can hire more people, who then can buy more shirts and cars.

So, to get the US economy moving, the government should put money in the hands of the people who will spend it, ie the regular folks who buy food and pay rent and buy cars.

Giving money or tax breaks to the rich does not make the economy better, simply because the rich do not need to spend the money on the everyday consumer goods that lead to more hiring. They can park it in the Caymans, like Mitt. Or invest it in a factory in China. Or maybe buy another yacht--how many people make a living in the luxury yacht industry?

They are not going to start a business and hire people just to help the country out. There has to be demand for their product which means average people have to have money to spend. So much for the rich as "job creators".

A thousand moms on welfare who spend all their money on rent, food, clothes, bus fare and Pampers create US jobs. And each one of those US workers creates more US jobs when they spend their paychecks. And eventually enough jobs are created to hire the welfare mom, who can then pay taxes and help other moms like her.

Ann Romney, with her $1000 imported t-shirts? Not so much.

[Nodak]

Okay, you guys are acting like theists now.

First, quite a few ad homonym attacks.

Second, many many anecdotal pieces of"evidence" for your argument.  "my friend had an appendicitis during the *one* weekend he didn't have insurance " sounds haughtingly similar to "my friend had cancer and then after a prayer session, she was cured". Come on, guys, give me some numbers like i asked About chronic preventable disease vs acute non-preventable disease. Also give me some number on how much a pack of cigs cost per day vs investing or saving that money. (also, lung cancer is not the only thing smoking has an impact on...wasted money, heart issues, increased susceptible to respiratory illness, to name just a few)

Third, no one has answered whether their dental woes are insurmountable despite brushing and flossing and regular check ups.....you know the boring stuff that you can't complain about and doesn't make a good bitch session? Same with regular exercises, eating right, sleeping well. Most of us here are living the USA and its a privilege that those basic things are available to every citizen. I spent alot of time in the third world (spreading my greedy corporate wealth amoungst the communities i served) and they don't have those luxuries at their fingertips.   Hell, property rights alone would be something that could change their lot in life....or even access to toothpaste....or well trained ethical doctors and veterinarians that want ot invest in their communities.

As a disclaimer, i am the sole owner of a corporation that you guys so despise and think are the ruin of America. I provide jobs, service, wealth, and the extra strain on my business for the welfare state you think you are entitled to, could make it go away.  Funny, i treat my employees well and they make the business even more profitable......most successful business operate that way. You don't survive long if you don't. When you say "corporations" what and who do you actually mean? Can you name 5 that do all the evils that you say and are still successful?

As a side note...you don't have to go to college  to be successful. More important that you learn a valuable skill and how to manage your finances.... And make logical choices.  How many woe-is-me stories could have been prevented by critical thinking? Perhaps wearing a condom, brushing and *flossing* twice daily, not buying $4 coffee every day, living where you could make a living and build a life, setting boundaries w toxic people, doing a monthly breast exam and yearly pap smear, driving the speed limit, living below your means.....you get my point. Give me a scenario and lets walk through it.

I say those that can't "go out an kill something and bring it home" in the past died out for a reason....they didn't contribute to the health of the community. And before you lambast me for being a social Darwin...which i am not... I employ several disabled adults....yep, my greedy corporation allows disabled adults to feel a sense of accomplishment rather than the joy of government hand outs.( although they get those too).

PS: Jeremy, you are so sweet to call me ignorant...could you point out why you believe that... Your example of the clothing store is a complete failure as that is not how capitalism nor communities work. Its similar to trying to making up the idea of a devil to make god look good.