SPAG or Bible?

[ParkingPlaces]

I sure would love to know the percentage of people who turned to christianity because they were hellraisers, drug users, alcoholics, etc.

TAs a person who was pretty nice right out of the blocks, I have a hard time understanding both aberrant behavior and the conversion of people like that to instant righteousness. It would be improper for me to use DKEN as an example because he has told us no details, but I have an acquaintance who was a hell raiser, and a drug dealer, and drug user, and wife beater, etc. Then he found god. That would be all well and good, because he is now a much more acceptable human being, except for the part that he hounds others to be just like him. Even those of us who have not gone through the turmoil he experienced in his life. He used to tell me (until I asked him to find other things to talk about) that I was going to hell because I wasn't following his path. I mentioned to him that I had never beaten up a drunk, stolen cars, used or sold drugs, beaten my wife or done anything else as bad as him, and he insisted that it made no difference. He told me point blank that my sins may seem smaller, but that they were just as terrible as his in the eyes of the lord.

So he SPAGs real life too. Though I guess when that happens it should be called Self Projection as Perfect, or SPAP. Or SPAR, Self Projection as Reformed. Or something like that.

If it takes religion to cause a person to begin acting socially acceptable, that is often an improvement over their nefarious past, but it is sad that folks can't just figure out that being an ass isn't cool, and change their ways for better reasons. For instance, being nice, is, well, you know, nice.

[Nam]

When I was young people saw me as a "bad boy"[1], I smoked cig's, drank alcohol with my friends[2], stole from stores, and my school, and got into trouble on a regular basis. That lasted up 'til, oh say, 22 years old.

My point: people change 'cause they want to change not 'cause some book tells them to. And to give credit to a book for the work you do in changing yourself, I find to be nonsense.

It was you who did it, and perhaps those around you who helped.

I don't steal.
I don't drink alcohol.[3]
I don't get into the physical fights like I used to.
I don't break the law,[4]
And I haven't lost my temper in awhile.

Yet, I am still seen as a "bad boy".

But it was me who decided to change, not some deity, or book. Just like with everyone else. People who think without a deity or a book to tell them what to do are idiots, in my book. 'Cause they are either weak, or stupid or both.

-Nam

1.	of course some still see me as that, like my ex-girlfriend
2.	this was around 10-11 years old, when I was a Southern Baptist
3.	haven't for 4 years, and before then not really for 8 years
4.	not even speeding

[Seppuku]

And I haven't lost my temper in awhile.

This is true, I called him old even though he's in his 30s and didn't try to kill me.


But I think you make a very good point Nam. You don't need God to get rid of your demons (so to speak). I think people who turn to 'God' don't realise how much strength they're actually drawing from themselves. It's not a God giving it to them.

I'm a goody two shoes who has hurt nobody, I drink, yes, but only as part of being social. But don't smoke or do drugs or do any of that crap.

Of course, the bible would suggest people like us who are clean, who obey the law and try to lead positive lives are labelled 'evil' by the bible. And I don't think this is 'SPAG' from ignorant or bigoted Chrstians, because the teachings are very much there. To gain access to the great sky party we have to accept Jesus Christ as our saviour. Although a Christian friends tells me that because I am a good person I am going to heaven and as much as it pains me, what she's talking about is SPAG, once she gave her reasoning I don't think I could deny it. But to be frank, I must prefer those who use SPAG and offer us 'nicer' views on God, Jesus & the bible to those who would quote to us the dark sides of the bible and try to abide by them, simply on the grounds that much of the bible is fucked up.

Unfortunately, to truly follow the bible literally is an impossibility due to biblical contradictions. Maybe somebody with a multiple personality disorder or somebody who can twist the words like spaghetti to make it work. Like, "thou shalt not kill" becomes, "thou shalt not murder" because it's not murder if God says it's okay, therefore, we should be free to kill homosexuals like Leviticus says, why Leviticus? Because Jesus said the old law won't, to listen to the old law, to listen to the words of Moses and not only that be Jesus himself hasn't come to change the law but to deliver it. Yet, this Jesus is merciful and loving and encourages pacifism in his stories and even though the old testament tells people to stone adulterers to death, he stops it from happening. Plenty of mixed messages there for believers.

So I think it's kind of hard to say, is it SPAG or the Bible? Generally when people use the line, "I feel that's not what God would want" I'd suggest it's SPAG. But it's harder to do when they can actually back themselves up efficiently with biblical quotes. What gets even more annoying is when you've got 2 opposing Christians offering quotes equally as substantial as each other. I suppose in instances it is SPAG, people are homophobic, so I'll follow the homophobic passage, but I don't think it's right for a woman to be forced into marriage with her rapist (In Deuteronomy), so we'll ignore that teaching.

[screwtape]

     With me it was just the other way round.  I was what could be called a "hell raiser" when a youth.

I wouldn't say our stories are mirror images.  For one, you began believing in god, but were not interested in following it. 

For two, I did not become a hell raiser after recognizing I was an atheist.  If anything I think I became more moral.  I realized I have to be good to people the first time around, because the only forgiveness I was going to get was going to be from the people I wronged.  There was no cosmic judge who was going to forgive me for injuries I made to other people.  That seems like a bizarre and unjust idea to me now.

[12 Monkeys]

Dken,do you think because you now are a believer you are absolved from your past actions,or your future acts that may be questionable? Its easy to be a believer if you dont actually follow any rules set out in the OT or NT and that is why you rely soley on SPAG for your beliefs.

 Spag is so easy,if you think God is comfortable with your actions that are counter to his instructions BAM in your mind you have justified it and can continue to live as if you were following a set of obscure rules.

[learnin]

I sure would love to know the percentage of people who turned to christianity because they were hellraisers, drug users, alcoholics, etc.

TAs a person who was pretty nice right out of the blocks, I have a hard time understanding both aberrant behavior and the conversion of people like that to instant righteousness. It would be improper for me to use DKEN as an example because he has told us no details, but I have an acquaintance who was a hell raiser, and a drug dealer, and drug user, and wife beater, etc. Then he found god. That would be all well and good, because he is now a much more acceptable human being, except for the part that he hounds others to be just like him. Even those of us who have not gone through the turmoil he experienced in his life. He used to tell me (until I asked him to find other things to talk about) that I was going to hell because I wasn't following his path. I mentioned to him that I had never beaten up a drunk, stolen cars, used or sold drugs, beaten my wife or done anything else as bad as him, and he insisted that it made no difference. He told me point blank that my sins may seem smaller, but that they were just as terrible as his in the eyes of the lord.

So he SPAGs real life too. Though I guess when that happens it should be called Self Projection as Perfect, or SPAP. Or SPAR, Self Projection as Reformed. Or something like that.

If it takes religion to cause a person to begin acting socially acceptable, that is often an improvement over their nefarious past, but it is sad that folks can't just figure out that being an ass isn't cool, and change their ways for better reasons. For instance, being nice, is, well, you know, nice.

Your acquaintance simply traded one "fix" for another.  Happens all the time.  A lady I worked with married this guy who was a biker and drank.  Nice guy, but liked to tie one on once in a while.  Then he got religion, stopped his drug of choice, and became hell to live with.  Soon, he became a deacon and it seems his wife, and her daughters, couldn't do good enough as he was always on them for watching tv and not reading the bible all the time and going to church all the time.  Religion is a drug.  Marx called it the opium of the people and people get batshit crazy on it.  To make a long story short, the couple split because the lady I work with couldn't take his constant preaching and put downs.

I suppose some people are better off being religious than doing some of the things they done in their past but most people, who were wild as hell in their youth, mellow out as they get older as a natural process without any "fixes" if you know what I mean.

[learnin]

When I was young people saw me as a "bad boy"[1], I smoked cig's, drank alcohol with my friends[2], stole from stores, and my school, and got into trouble on a regular basis. That lasted up 'til, oh say, 22 years old.


It was you who did it, and perhaps those around you who helped.

I don't steal.
I don't drink alcohol.[3]
I don't get into the physical fights like I used to.
I don't break the law,[4]
And I haven't lost my temper in awhile.

Yet, I am still seen as a "bad boy".

But it was me who decided to change, not some deity, or book. Just like with everyone else. People who think without a deity or a book to tell them what to do are idiots, in my book. 'Cause they are either weak, or stupid or both.

-Nam

1.	of course some still see me as that, like my ex-girlfriend
2.	this was around 10-11 years old, when I was a Southern Baptist
3.	haven't for 4 years, and before then not really for 8 years
4.	not even speeding

My point: people change 'cause they want to change not 'cause some book tells them to. And to give credit to a book for the work you do in changing yourself, I find to be nonsense.

Ah, you beat me to it.  Your point is well taken and I posted my first comment before seeing yours.  Most people, who have it in them to change, will change as they get tired of doing the crap they've been doing as they knock their head against a wall.  The people, who do not have it in them to change, will fall back into their old habits with religion or without religion until age removes the passion and youthful vigor from their life.

[DKEN]

Dken,do you think because you now are a believer you are absolved from your past actions,or your future acts that may be questionable? Its easy to be a believer if you dont actually follow any rules set out in the OT or NT and that is why you rely soley on SPAG for your beliefs.

 Spag is so easy,if you think God is comfortable with your actions that are counter to his instructions BAM in your mind you have justified it and can continue to live as if you were following a set of obscure rules.

     Hi Monk, thanks for the insightful question.   If it were SPAG then I could make up my own rules and try to make those around me live up to them not because they said they would, but because me, projecting myself into Godhood, would demand it.  I would not be holding them to a standard they said they would follow, but one that I created.  That would be SPAG.  If they become believers, THEY allow Jesus to rule over them.  All that I can or could do is help them to see what His commands are and if they love Him, they will obey Him, not me.  The problem comes in when the believer gets frustrated with his family or whatever and looses his cool, falls back into his own human nature.
     To answer your first question, in God's eyes I am forgiven from all of my past, present, and future sins.  This is because of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, vicariously dying in my place and suffering the punishment that I deserve.  So positionally I am free from all my sin and the guilt that comes with it because of Him, not because I have become such a nice guy.  "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus" is what the Bible says in Romans 8:1.  Now I can believe that or not, it's up to me.
     This does not, however, absolve me from the effects or responsibility toward those I have mistreated in the past or those I will hurt in some way in the future.  I see this with new believers a lot.  They see all of the things in the past that they have messed up and want to go back and make it right.  They pay back things they have stolen.  They ask forgiveness from people that they have wronged in the past.  I did that with my parents.  All of the time that I spent having my own way and hurting them and embarrassing them, I had to ask them to forgive me.  It floored them.  They did not know what to think.  I tried to catalog the hurts for them and they were overwhelmed.  They forgave me and tried to say it was not necessary to name all of the times I hurt them, it was "okay, enough" and for them it was, but I had to clear my conscience before them and, more importantly, before God.  They were not the only ones, though.  As I said, I was not a nice person before salvation.  I'll not bore you with the details, but it is very uncomfortable to ask forgiveness for the cruddy things you have done in the past.  If it were not for obedience to my Savior, and the desire for a clean conscience, I would not have done it.
     As to future sins, 1 John 1:9 says that once you are a believer and have yourself under the authority of Jesus Christ "It we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."  The word all in the Greek, original tongue means "all", not some or lots of them, but all of them.  The key is honesty, what the Bible calls "walking in Light" in 1 John 1:5,6.
So it's getting things right and agreeing with God when I fail personally, and getting things right with the people I have wronged as well.
      If I just try to get it right with God and not the people, there is a scripture for that.  It is Matt. 5: 23, 24.  "Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that they brother hath aught against thee; leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift."  Now, as a side note, Jesus was in the Jewish religion in the early first century when there was still a temple and they still had sacrifices on a physical altar.  Before Jesus death on the cross the OT law was still in effect.  When Jesus died, was buried, and rose again, the old law died and a new dispensation, the "Church Age," began at Pentecost, a Jewish feast day (picturing the new church age as first fruits). 
     For the NT believer "bringing a sacrifice" could be something like praying.  If you begin praying and remember that unkind word to your spouse, employee, neighbor, etc. get off of your knees and go get it right with that person.  Substitute praying for helping at the food pantry, or serving in you churches choir, or whatever.  The main point to remember in all of this is that if you are not a believer you are not held to this standard, only Christians.
     Before I was "saved" I tried to be good.  "Being good" is following the law.  This is how I tried to be right with God, following His law, thinking that keeping the law would earn me favor with Him.  The law is His perfect standard of righteousness.  Absolute goodness.  The first four commandments pertain to our relationship with God.  Have no other gods before Him, don't make idols or bow down to worship them, keep the sabbath day separated from the other six days, and don't take His name lightly or irreverently.  The last five have to do with our relationships on the earthly plane, with people.  Thou shalt not murder (the Jewish word here is "Ratsah" or murder, not just killing.  Manslaughter would not be Ratsah,  killing in a war between two belligerent armies would not be Ratsah, only 1st degree intentional homicide), thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not steal, not to bear false witness (lying) and not to covet what other people have.  The fifth command is the one that ties both sides together, honor, or obey with the proper reverence, your mother and father.
     Now, the Bible says no person in history has kept the law perfectly.  "All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God." (Romans 3:23)  Which of us on this site could say, "I have kept that law all of my life, I have never broken even one of those commands?"  No, the Bible says, "There is none righteous, no, not one."  I am still a sinner.  Nobody is perfect. 
I am sorry that I am going on long with this, but this question of SPAG verses God's word needs clarification.
      If it were my rules, I sure would not make a rule that says don't "look at a woman with lust in the deep recesses of your mind (heart.  Matt. 5:27,28.)"  when I know I could not keep it.  I would make up a rule like "be as nice as you can to those people that aren't too goofy."  Treat your wife nice if she doesn't do something stupid.  Treat others like you think they deserve and don't come down too hard on them even if they don't remember your birthday, and tons of other laws that would let me off the hook, to act as I think I should, depending, of course, on the circumstances. 
     That's what people are like, in my estimation, but God is not like that.  His standards don't change.  I know many of you think differently, which is why I am taking some time with this point.  This all boils down to who is God that I should obey Him?  SPAG  answers that question with DKEN the almighty, which I, demonstrably, am not.
     

[screwtape]

     Hi Monk, thanks for the insightful question.   If it were SPAG then I could make up my own rules and try to make those around me live up to them not because they said they would, but because me, projecting myself into Godhood, would demand it.

Not necessarily.  SPAG is normally about interpretation, not making things up wholesale.  If a particular line in a holy book - not just the bible - leaves room for interpretation, the devotee applies SPAG to chose the interpretation. 

For example, our man in the sand, Mohammed, said women should dress modestly.  But what does "modestly" mean?  Old Moe was not specific so it leaves room for all the little jihadis to apply their own personal standards and fantasize that is what god wants.  So you get variation.  In western countries they may simply wear somewhat more conservative clothing, or a head covering.  In crazy places they have to wear a small tent.  Either way, each and every one of them are sure their own interpretation is correct and in line with what god wants.  SPAG. 

An example you may be familiar with is 1 Tim 2:12:

I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

How you and your church interpret and apply this says something not about god, but about you.  Most churches ignore it, because they are modern people (sort of), and they find these ideas objectionable.  As such, they cannot imagine god would really want that.  And bang, they have just elevated their opinions to God's opinions.

I forget who said it here, perhaps Azdgari, but the bible is a Rorschach test for believers.

This is because of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, vicariously dying in my place and suffering the punishment that I deserve. 

Do you not have a moral objection to this?  Would you allow someone else to be held responsible for wrongs you committed?  How about if a murderer was allowed to send someone else to jail in his place?  Would that be okay with you?

[12 Monkeys]

what interest does God or Jesus have in being a Lord over anything?.......and as you currently do not obey the outdated commands of your God,killing those he has commanded you to kill you reek of SPAG. those commands are now not socially acceptable like they were in the past....still you ignore them and fill in the blanks of why you ignore them with SPAG

[DKEN]

When I was young people saw me as a "bad boy"[1], I smoked cig's, drank alcohol with my friends[2], stole from stores, and my school, and got into trouble on a regular basis. That lasted up 'til, oh say, 22 years old.


It was you who did it, and perhaps those around you who helped.

I don't steal.
I don't drink alcohol.[3]
I don't get into the physical fights like I used to.
I don't break the law,[4]
And I haven't lost my temper in awhile.

Yet, I am still seen as a "bad boy".

But it was me who decided to change, not some deity, or book. Just like with everyone else. People who think without a deity or a book to tell them what to do are idiots, in my book. 'Cause they are either weak, or stupid or both.

-Nam

1.	of course some still see me as that, like my ex-girlfriend
2.	this was around 10-11 years old, when I was a Southern Baptist
3.	haven't for 4 years, and before then not really for 8 years
4.	not even speeding

My point: people change 'cause they want to change not 'cause some book tells them to. And to give credit to a book for the work you do in changing yourself, I find to be nonsense.

Ah, you beat me to it.  Your point is well taken and I posted my first comment before seeing yours.  Most people, who have it in them to change, will change as they get tired of doing the crap they've been doing as they knock their head against a wall.  The people, who do not have it in them to change, will fall back into their old habits with religion or without religion until age removes the passion and youthful vigor from their life.

     Ah, if it were only that simple, that I just believed some instructional book and found the will within myself to become nice.  If that were the case, why would I not blow off Sundays and live them for me?  Nam and learnin, what about the commands in the Bible to forgive your enemies and be extra special nice to them? (Romans 12:20; Proverbs 25:22)  If someone called you vile names and cursed you out would you bring them chocolate chip cookies?  In each person there exists the capacity to do nice things and "keep our noses clean."  We all have will power in varying degrees.  The Bible states that a new believer becomes a "new creature" with a new nature alongside of the old (2 Corinthians 5:17.)  The old nature we already have because of Adam, and now a new nature that is able to do right according to God's standards (law) set out in the Bible.
     Either salvation is a supernatural phenomenon or it falls into the "findin' Jesus" fakery that you all (and I as well) despise. "Is salvation just a person getting smarter and doing better so he starts not having so much hurt in his life from hangovers, divorces, job losses, etc. or does the Deity of the Old and New Testaments break in upon a person and change his life from the inside out by the Power of God?" 
      If a man is doing poorly (sinning) and his wife is ready to leave, he becomes a Xian (h/t; thanks screwtape) and his wife sees this wildly dramatic change, is she that stupid and gullible to think he just "turned a new leaf," or does she see real change in him, humility, honesty, etc.?  Does she go to church with him just because it's a nice thing to do, or does his testimony make her want to find out what turned him inside out?
     This is precisely the reason for this website.  Is God real or not?  If He is real, why does He not heal amputees, blind, deaf, etc?   Am I just another SPAGmaster?   The answer is that many times I am, though when I am, that's called sin.  I'm not perfect and no honest Xian would say they are.  I am nobody special.  Just a broken clay jar with Jesus spilling out.
     If it was just change so that a man stops doing things that hurt, what makes him read a book like the Bible that is so hard to understand and takes so much work, and makes him love it above all of the other books he's read?  What makes him go to a church amongst all of these do gooders and sing church songs at the top of his lungs with tears streaming down his face?  Then, when the preacher gets up and insults him by calling him a sinner that deserves hell, does he not get up and walk out, but, instead, bows his head and admits it?  Answer that, and you win the million dollar jackpot. 

[DKEN]

     Hi Monk, thanks for the insightful question.   If it were SPAG then I could make up my own rules and try to make those around me live up to them not because they said they would, but because me, projecting myself into Godhood, would demand it.

Not necessarily.  SPAG is normally about interpretation, not making things up wholesale.  If a particular line in a holy book - not just the bible - leaves room for interpretation, the devotee applies SPAG to chose the interpretation. 

For example, our man in the sand, Mohammed, said women should dress modestly.  But what does "modestly" mean?  Old Moe was not specific so it leaves room for all the little jihadis to apply their own personal standards and fantasize that is what god wants.  So you get variation.  In western countries they may simply wear somewhat more conservative clothing, or a head covering.  In crazy places they have to wear a small tent.  Either way, each and every one of them are sure their own interpretation is correct and in line with what god wants.  SPAG. 

An example you may be familiar with is 1 Tim 2:12:

I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

How you and your church interpret and apply this says something not about god, but about you.  Most churches ignore it, because they are modern people (sort of), and they find these ideas objectionable.  As such, they cannot imagine god would really want that.  And bang, they have just elevated their opinions to God's opinions.

I forget who said it here, perhaps Azdgari, but the bible is a Rorschach test for believers.

This is because of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, vicariously dying in my place and suffering the punishment that I deserve. 

Do you not have a moral objection to this?  Would you allow someone else to be held responsible for wrongs you committed?  How about if a murderer was allowed to send someone else to jail in his place?  Would that be okay with you?

     How could I stop it if it were not my choosing but he and the judge that agreed to take his life for mine?  It would, of course, be repulsive if I shoved him in front of me and demanded he die instead of me.  God so loved the world that He gave........ it is a gift that He would choose to have Jesus die in my place.  I can't take Him by force and murder Him in my place.
     That is a point well taken on making up my rules instead of interpretation.  There is a lot of room for interpretation in the Bible for personal application as God leads you.  This is why some churches have different dress standards and music standards, etc.  I am not there judge.  Jesus is.  If they are believers I can still have fellowship with them when we are on common ground, but nowhere am I allowed to judge them.  They have a master and it is not me.

[DKEN]

what interest does God or Jesus have in being a Lord over anything?.......and as you currently do not obey the outdated commands of your God,killing those he has commanded you to kill you reek of SPAG. those commands are now not socially acceptable like they were in the past....still you ignore them and fill in the blanks of why you ignore them with SPAG

Job 38 - 41.  The rights of ownership.
Not only is murder wrong, but just hating some one. Matt. 5: 21,22.

[DKEN]

DKEN, now that you're back: are you going to answer the question?

-Nam

I'm thinking, not forgetting.

[Nam]

[Ah, if it were only that simple, that I just believed some instructional book and found the will within myself to become nice.  If that were the case, why would I not blow off Sundays and live them for me?  Nam and learnin, what about the commands in the Bible to forgive your enemies and be extra special nice to them? (Romans 12:20; Proverbs 25:22)

You see how you contradicted yourself? To your question: I'm not one to ask: one of my good friends growing up was someone I loathed, and he loathed me; the same when I was in my early 20's.

If someone called you vile names and cursed you out would you bring them chocolate chip cookies?

Again: not one to ask such a thing.

 

In each person there exists the capacity to do nice things and "keep our noses clean."  We all have will power in varying degrees.  The Bible states that a new believer becomes a "new creature" with a new nature alongside of the old (2 Corinthians 5:17.)  The old nature we already have because of Adam, and now a new nature that is able to do right according to God's standards (law) set out in the Bible.
     Either salvation is a supernatural phenomenon or it falls into the "findin' Jesus" fakery that you all (and I as well) despise. "Is salvation just a person getting smarter and doing better so he starts not having so much hurt in his life from hangovers, divorces, job losses, etc. or does the Deity of the Old and New Testaments break in upon a person and change his life from the inside out by the Power of God?" 
      If a man is doing poorly (sinning) and his wife is ready to leave, he becomes a Xian (h/t; thanks screwtape) and his wife sees this wildly dramatic change, is she that stupid and gullible to think he just "turned a new leaf," or does she see real change in him, humility, honesty, etc.?  Does she go to church with him just because it's a nice thing to do, or does his testimony make her want to find out what turned him inside out?
     This is precisely the reason for this website.  Is God real or not?  If He is real, why does He not heal amputees, blind, deaf, etc?   Am I just another SPAGmaster?   The answer is that many times I am, though when I am, that's called sin.  I'm not perfect and no honest Xian would say they are.  I am nobody special.  Just a broken clay jar with Jesus spilling out.
     If it was just change so that a man stops doing things that hurt, what makes him read a book like the Bible that is so hard to understand and takes so much work, and makes him love it above all of the other books he's read?  What makes him go to a church amongst all of these do gooders and sing church songs at the top of his lungs with tears streaming down his face?  Then, when the preacher gets up and insults him by calling him a sinner that deserves hell, does he not get up and walk out, but, instead, bows his head and admits it?  Answer that, and you win the million dollar jackpot. 

The rest of this: you preaching. Try a different approach.

-Nam

[Graybeard]

God so loved the world that He gave........ it is a gift that He would choose to have Jesus die in my place.

The truth behind this, if Jesus existed, is that human sacrifice in the Bible has always has a profound effect on the Jews.[1]
We have the legend of Jephthah's daughter to emphasise the importance of a promise to Yahweh, and we have the retreat of God's armies in the face of human sacrifice:
2Ki:3:27: Then he took his eldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall.  And there was great indignation against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land.

And we have: In Exodus 13:2 the Lord said "Consecrate to me every first-born that opens the womb among Israelites, both man and beast, for it belongs to me."  Later it says that you can redeem (replace) an ass with a sheep and that you must redeem a child for an unspecified price.  It is clear from the context that "consecrate" means a burning sacrifice.

You should also read the Bible and find out the circumstance under which God instructs men to eat their wives and children.

All this is the reason Jesus is said to have died by way of sacrifice - a big shock to the Jews' culture. Of course, it is not true - we only have the Bible's word that this was the reason, and anyone can make up a reason. Nevertheless impressive to the Jews.

There is a lot of room for interpretation in the Bible for personal application as God leads you.  ... I am not there judge.  Jesus is. ... nowhere am I allowed to judge them.

You will see that whereas you say you can "interpret," you cannot judge. But interpretation is your judgement and more to the point, you know little of the Bible - Christians are required to judge:

Leviticus 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

1st Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1st Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?.
1st Corinthians 6:4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

Were this not the case, any person could start arguing with the Pastor/priest/shaman and would still be allowed to remain within the congregation, disrupting others and leading them to heresy...

Think about it and obey God and start judging...

1.	M't:10:6: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. M't:15:24: But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

[screwtape]

     How could I stop it if it were not my choosing but he and the judge that agreed to take his life for mine?  It would, of course, be repulsive if I shoved him in front of me and demanded he die instead of me.  God so loved the world that He gave........ it is a gift that He would choose to have Jesus die in my place.  I can't take Him by force and murder Him in my place.

I assume this is in response to my question about the moral implications of the crucifixion.  If not, please correct me.

My point was not that you should or even could have stopped it.  It was more a question of why you accept it.  You believe you are going to get out of jail because someone else went for you.  Why do you accept that?  Why not reject it on moral grounds?  I would hope you would not accept blood money from extortionists or thieves.  Why would you accept forgiveness that came at the cost of another man's life?

Here is a mind bender for you. Buddhists do not think of Nirvana quite in the same way as xians think of heaven, but it is kind of analagous.  Buddhists who are considered to be at a high level of understanding make a promise to not go to Nirvana until everyone can get into Nirvana.  They promise to be reincarnated (if that is possible) to come back and help other people learn how to end suffering. [1]

Can you imagine that?  Regular people - not scions of gods, not avatars of gods, not holy spirit inhabited meat puppets - forego their version of heaven so that they can help everyone else.  Imagine xians saying "I'm not going to heaven until everyone is saved."  I know, in xian theology, that is impossible.  But that is my point.  Xian salvation is an appeal to our base desires - to escape justice at the expense of another and to get a free lunch - and is at its heart selfish and immoral.

There is a lot of room for interpretation in the Bible for personal application as God leads you.

Here is the $64,000 question - how do you know god is leading you and it is not just your own wishful thinking? 

  This is why some churches have different dress standards and music standards, etc.  I am not there judge.  Jesus is.

Nope.  You are.  I laid it out and you confirmed it right there where you point out the different standards.  Alll believers have to use SPAG because no holy book perfectly communicates everything.  You must make interpretations.  You must make choices.  You must SPAG.  There is no way around it.

but nowhere am I allowed to judge them.  They have a master and it is not me.

That is completely untrue, though you probably do not realize it.  We all judge, all the time.  That is how morality works.

Job 38 - 41.  The rights of ownership.

Job is a story that seeks to answer the question of evil, theodicy.  It essentiallys says, "I have no clue".  It describes yhwh as being a capricious and random as the forces of nature. And in the end, yhwh justifies himself by saying might makes right.  A lot of people only come away with that last part.

It also portrays yhwh as renegging on his covenant with the hebrews. Remember, the quid pro quo deal was the hebrews were supposed to cut off part of their penises as a sacrifice to yhwh, follow all his rules and in return, yhwh would protect them and favor them.  Here we have Job who is described as "blameless and upright", meaning, he was doing everything he was supposed to with regards to yhwh. 

And yhwh makes a bet to see if Job will continue to do those things even if yhwh ceases to keep up his end of the bargain.  Job ultimately does and even receives some bullying from yhwh for good measure.  Tragic.  Ever since then people have been under the impression that they owe yhwh literally everything, and in return, yhwh owes them nothing.

For a cool modern version of this, check out the Cohen brothers movie, A Serious Man.

Not only is murder wrong, but just hating some one. Matt. 5: 21,22.

Wow.  Talk about setting impossible goals. Not only do you have to control your actions and thoughts, but also how you feel about someone.  I do not know how to do that.  I do not know anyone who knows how to do that.  What kind of demand is that?

Not only that, look at the incentives established here.  If you are just as guility for thinking bad things as you are for doing them, you may as well go ahead and do them.  You have nothing more to lose.

1.	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva#In_Mah.C4.81y.C4.81na_Buddhism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhicitta

[Truth OT]

I sure would love to know the percentage of people who turned to christianity because they were hellraisers, drug users, alcoholics, etc.


If it takes religion to cause a person to begin acting socially acceptable, that is often an improvement over their nefarious past, but it is sad that folks can't just figure out that being an ass isn't cool, and change their ways for better reasons. For instance, being nice, is, well, you know, nice.

In my opinion, most human beings, if not all of us are afflicted with a "sheep gene." We have a tendency to find something to deify, worship, idolize, submit to, and follow for direction or to give us purpose. Our authoritarian mindset is stunting our evolution and causing us to get mired in the status quo that is increasingly antiscience and anti-advancement. Religion is a great tool for those that benefit from the authoritarian way of thinking who also happen to be content with the place and position the staus quo affords them. As a race we have accepted and become comfortable with things we should fight hard against and throw all our resources into a battle against. Ideas like Goddidit-ism, fatalism, and the inevitability of our own eventual and SOON demise are almost totally accepted to the point were at time those ideas are even lauded. We must step up our game and our ways of thinking....

[flapdoodle64]

God, being infinitely greater than humans (omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent) has ways beyond human understanding.

God's Plan, for instance, is 'beyond human understanding.'  That's why it doesn't make any sense to atheists, but Xians say it must make sense because god came up with it. 

So if god is beyond human understanding, any attempts by humans to understand god must be filtered through human understanding...and therefore subject to human thinking errors...such as the tendency to project one's own personality onto a 3rd person. 

Indeed, if god exists and is the 3 or 4 omnis, then he must beyond comprehension and that anytime we attach attributes to god we are engaging in projection of the self. 

In fact, the Xian who claims to be worshipping the god in the bible, so obviously a creation of human self-projection, is actually worshipping humans...and if he claims he is informed by the Holy Spirit, then of course he is in fact worshipping himself.

This is one of the many delicious ironies of religion...religionists claim that atheists commit the sin of self-worship.  Yet it's actually the religionists who commit this act, although they decieve themselves into thinking otherwise. 

[12 Monkeys]

what interest does God or Jesus have in being a Lord over anything?.......and as you currently do not obey the outdated commands of your God,killing those he has commanded you to kill you reek of SPAG. those commands are now not socially acceptable like they were in the past....still you ignore them and fill in the blanks of why you ignore them with SPAG

Job 38 - 41.  The rights of ownership.
Not only is murder wrong, but just hating some one. Matt. 5: 21,22.

You are NOT answering the questions you are just PREACHING And I am sure if I looked I could come up with at least 10 verses that contardict every verse you spew out on your keyboard

[DKEN]

God so loved the world that He gave........ it is a gift that He would choose to have Jesus die in my place.

The truth behind this, if Jesus existed, is that human sacrifice in the Bible has always has a profound effect on the Jews.[1]
We have the legend of Jephthah's daughter to emphasise the importance of a promise to Yahweh, and we have the retreat of God's armies in the face of human sacrifice:
2Ki:3:27: Then he took his eldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall.  And there was great indignation against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land.
     The passage from 2Kings is a passage about Jehoram, the son of Ahab, taking over the rulership of Israel after Ahab died.  The King of Moab, who was under tribute to Ahab rebelled after Ahab died.  Ahab's son went to fight with the king of Moab and took with him the king of Judah (the twelve tribes of Israel were split into ten northern tribes and Judah and Benjamin in the south after Solomon died), whose name was Jehoshaphat, who was a king that feared the Lord.  They joined forces with the Edomite king (unnamed) and all three kings and their armies went to fight with teh Moabite king.
     God delivered the Moabites into the hand of the Israelites and when things were going bad for the Moabites it brings us to the scripture that you quote.  Read it again and tell me who sacrificed his son upon the wall and who was it that fled.  You don't seem to have the story so straight.  The one that sacrificed his son is the same person who is the subject in vs. 26.  That would be the king of Moab.  He was no Hebrew.  He was beaten.  Now, is it because the Moabite king immolated his heir on the wall that made the Israelites leave, or the fact that they had just cleaned the Moabite's clock and decided to go home after a hard days' work?  It's kind of hard to tell, but the application of the story is that King Jehoshaphat should never have been hanging out with an apostate rebel of Yaweh.  If Jehoshaphat was not with Jehoram, king of Israel, Jehoram would have been left to swing by himself by God. 
     What that has to do with what you are trying to say, I am not sure.   

And we have: In Exodus 13:2 the Lord said "Consecrate to me every first-born that opens the womb among Israelites, both man and beast, for it belongs to me."  Later it says that you can redeem (replace) an ass with a sheep and that you must redeem a child for an unspecified price.  It is clear from the context that "consecrate" means a burning sacrifice.


     It is even clearer when you go to Strong's Comprehensive Concordance that the word Consecrate  is not in Exodus 13 :2 in the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible.  The word used there is "sanctify."  That word does not mean to burn as a sacrifice.  The word consecrate is used in lots of passages like
Ex. 28:3 ..."that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office." 

Aaron is not burned up in this passage.

Lev. 21:10... "And he that is the high priest among his brethren, upon whose head the anointing oil was poured, and that is consecrated to put on the garments, shall not uncover his head, nor rend his clothes."
 
High priest is not burned yet again.

Num. 3:3... "These are the names of the sons of Aaron, the priests which were anointed, whom he consecrated to minister in the priest's office." 

Again, they could not minister if they were cremated.



All this is the reason Jesus is said to have died by way of sacrifice - a big shock to the Jews' culture. Of course, it is not true - we only have the Bible's word that this was the reason, and anyone can make up a reason. Nevertheless impressive to the Jews.
This was not a "big shock" to the Jewish culture to have Jesus murdered by the Romans in crucifixion.  The Jewish leaders of the Sanhedrin shouted, "Crucify him, Crucify him" when Pontius Pilate wanted to let Him go.  Matt. 27:22.  I know you don't like the Bible much and don't believe it to be the word of God, but that just means that maybe you shouldn't try to hit me over the head with it.   

There is a lot of room for interpretation in the Bible for personal application as God leads you.  ... I am not there judge.  Jesus is. ... nowhere am I allowed to judge them.

You will see that whereas you say you can "interpret," you cannot judge. But interpretation is your judgement and more to the point, you know little of the Bible - Christians are required to judge:

Leviticus 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

1st Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1st Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?.
1st Corinthians 6:4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

Were this not the case, any person could start arguing with the Pastor/priest/shaman and would still be allowed to remain within the congregation, disrupting others and leading them to heresy...

Think about it and obey God and start judging...

1.	M't:10:6: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. M't:15:24: But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Have you checked the context of what you're quoting?   Where was the Christian church in approx. 1400 BC when Leviticus was written?  In 1 Corinthians 6 what is the context and application, in your mind?  It can't just be a simplistic "Let the judgin' begin!"  The Apostle Paul was writing to the church at Corinth for a reason and this passage has a particular application to a Christian in this time period.   What are the infractions that the Apostle is saying to judge.  Please don't just throw out a couple of proof texts and try to pull a check mate on me.  The Bible is great literature and is worthy of research for that reason alone.

"You should also read the Bible and find out the circumstance under which God instructs men to eat their wives and children."

Chapter and verse, dude.

[pingnak]

WWJD = SPAG

After all, it calls for you to decide what Jesus would do, if you were him.

[DKEN]

I sure would love to know the percentage of people who turned to christianity because they were hellraisers, drug users, alcoholics, etc.


If it takes religion to cause a person to begin acting socially acceptable, that is often an improvement over their nefarious past, but it is sad that folks can't just figure out that being an ass isn't cool, and change their ways for better reasons. For instance, being nice, is, well, you know, nice.

In my opinion, most human beings, if not all of us are afflicted with a "sheep gene." We have a tendency to find something to deify, worship, idolize, submit to, and follow for direction or to give us purpose. Our authoritarian mindset is stunting our evolution and causing us to get mired in the status quo that is increasingly antiscience and anti-advancement. Religion is a great tool for those that benefit from the authoritarian way of thinking who also happen to be content with the place and position the staus quo affords them. As a race we have accepted and become comfortable with things we should fight hard against and throw all our resources into a battle against. Ideas like Goddidit-ism, fatalism, and the inevitability of our own eventual and SOON demise are almost totally accepted to the point were at time those ideas are even lauded. We must step up our game and our ways of thinking....

The Bible does say that we are like sheep, but not because we want to follow some one or something, but because we wander away and are too dumb to know where we have it the best, with the Shepherd.

[DKEN]

what interest does God or Jesus have in being a Lord over anything?.......and as you currently do not obey the outdated commands of your God,killing those he has commanded you to kill you reek of SPAG. those commands are now not socially acceptable like they were in the past....still you ignore them and fill in the blanks of why you ignore them with SPAG

Job 38 - 41.  The rights of ownership.
Not only is murder wrong, but just hating some one. Matt. 5: 21,22.

You are NOT answering the questions you are just PREACHING And I am sure if I looked I could come up with at least 10 verses that contardict every verse you spew out on your keyboard

I am simply asking you to look up the scriptures for yourself.  In the chapters in Job God lays out the reason why He has the right to do anything with His creation.  Don't forget, though, that in the end He gives Job more than he had started with.  If this is me SPAGGING then you are removing any possibility of defending the book if I can't use what the book says plainly, but you can use it to destroy my arguments.  Could that be reverse SPAG on your part?

[DKEN]

WWJD = SPAG

After all, it calls for you to decide what Jesus would do, if you were him.

     The word "Christian" means "little Christ" after all.  It was a derogatory term used against followers of Christ.  The people who started using it did not know that the believers would accept it as a badge of honor.  Christians are to be not just followers, but to be changed into His image. 
     With the responsibility of answering twenty people with a flurry of questions designed to trip me up is kind of exhausting.  I am having a great time, but I can not give full answers to all of the questions.  I'm not sure you would want the "full' answers. 

[pingnak]

No, I'm just disrespectfully taunting, actually.

[Brakeman]

DKEN,

Have you ever spoken with god? What has he ever said to you?

[learnin]

     Ah, if it were only that simple, that I just believed some instructional book and found the will within myself to become nice.  If that were the case, why would I not blow off Sundays and live them for me?  Nam and learnin, what about the commands in the Bible to forgive your enemies and be extra special nice to them? (Romans 12:20; Proverbs 25:22)  If someone called you vile names and cursed you out would you bring them chocolate chip cookies?  In each person there exists the capacity to do nice things and "keep our noses clean."  We all have will power in varying degrees.  The Bible states that a new believer becomes a "new creature" with a new nature alongside of the old (2 Corinthians 5:17.)  The old nature we already have because of Adam, and now a new nature that is able to do right according to God's standards (law) set out in the Bible.

I'm not following you here.  It is my contention that human beings have the ability to change MANY THINGS in their life when inspired to do so by various stimuli.  These stimuli could include religious belief; a new lover; sickness; a close call with death, etc.etc.  I emphasize the phrase, 'MANY THINGS", because I believe there are certain things a person cannot change altogether.  I'm convinced that some people cannot overcome a bad temper, their brain wired to snap at certain stimuli;  I'm convinced that some people cannot overcome alcohol addiction, their brain being wired to crave the stuff once exposed to it. 

I was very religious most of my adult life.  I did things I would not normally do had I not been inspired by my religious belief.  For instance, I stopped cursing.  For ten years, I rose out of my bed every Thursday morning at 3 o'clock and went to spend an hour in chapel praying.  I did this in the bitter cold and it is very hard for me to give up sleep.  Yet, there was one thing I could not conquer.  I would lust at the site of an attractive woman.   It would have been easy, and believe me I did it many times, to attribute my victories to a supernatural power but I realized, in time, that there was nothing supernatural going on.  If there had been, I would have conquered my lust concerning women.  As a believer, I believed it terribly wrong (tantamount to adultery per Jesus) to do such a thing.  I would have rather cussed up a storm than to think sexually about another woman who was not my wife.   In my life, I never smoked, never drank, never did drugs (even though growing up in the 60's with it all around me), conquered cursing, forgave my enemies, etc.  Yet, I couldn't overcome the one thing I wanted to overcome most.

I lived in a very religious community.  Over time, I began to see that I was no different.  Every person had their demon that Christ, supposedly, came to drive out.  For some it was hate; for others it was drink; for others it was phariseeism; some would cheat their own grandmother for a buck.

     If it was just change so that a man stops doing things that hurt, what makes him read a book like the Bible that is so hard to understand and takes so much work, and makes him love it above all of the other books he's read?

You might as well ask why a man reads the Koran and makes him love it above all the other books he's read?   I'd say that man is looking for something to give his life meaning.

What makes him go to a church amongst all of these do gooders and sing church songs at the top of his lungs with tears streaming down his face?  Then, when the preacher gets up and insults him by calling him a sinner that deserves hell, does he not get up and walk out, but, instead, bows his head and admits it?  Answer that, and you win the million dollar jackpot.

What makes a Hindu climb up a mountain top and deny himself companionship, food and water?   I say he's looking for meaning, looking for a purpose in life.  He may be looking for peace.  Are you willing to admit that other religions are capable of inspiring the same effects that the Christian religion inspires?

[learnin]

One more thing I just thought of, DKEN.  If Christianity is supernatural and Jesus gives humans a supernatural power, through the Holy Spirit, to be born again to a new life whereby we live a righteous life, then, why did Jesus utter the following commands:

"If your eye offend you, pluck it out for it is better to enter life blind than to go to eternal damnation with sight.   If your right hand offends you, cut it off for it is better to........."

This sounds very natural to me and my religious experience confirmed to me that it is up to me to change because I'm not getting any help from above.  What is more, I found out it's the very same for all those close to me who were religious.