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Offline 12 Monkeys

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SPAG or Bible?
« on: June 03, 2012, 08:22:56 PM »
What do you think the Christian has his/her views deeply rooted in,SPAG(self projection as God) or their belief in both the old and new testament?. Most of the stuff that is contradictory in OT,NT is ignored or explained away,which is where SPAG comes into play.

Spag plays a much more important role in a Christians life than OT or NT does. They ignore rules and guidlines set out by Jesus and his "Daddy" and settle for little more than what they think (SPAG)...The OT and NT become less and less important and are used as more of a reference than anything else....thoughts?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 08:24:55 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline Nam

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2012, 11:34:12 PM »
I find Protestant sects mainly use the NT as their guide, and the OT as reference. However, when put in a spot where the NT isn't helping them in a debate, they will use the OT as a guide.

They will also use biased sources as notations yet consider them unbiased when sourced by a person in a different sect to their own. Since the person isn't of their particular "faith" than in their mind, they are being unbiased and open-minded.

Just my views. I have no opinion on Catholics. Only 'cause I do not know enough about them to have one.

-Nam

Offline albeto

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2012, 12:05:24 AM »
thoughts?

I agree with you.  I'm a member of a Christian homeschool forum and right now someone asked if the bible condones or condemns slavery.  What do you bet they'll all say?


Offline Nam

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2012, 12:35:05 AM »
^it doesn't but only 'cause most Christians haven't read the Bible. And those who have to to use excuses to skirt over such a thing.

-Nam

Offline albeto

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2012, 12:49:49 AM »
^it doesn't but only 'cause most Christians haven't read the Bible. And those who have to to use excuses to skirt over such a thing.

-Nam

Some of these evangelicals study the bible for years, get degrees in divinity, study to be missionaries, study throughout the week formally and informally.  They go on retreats and conferences. They figure the bible is like the Reader's Digest User's Manuel written by Godalmightyhimself and they pour through the pages lest they miss some important information.  Some of these people take this shit very seriously.  The SPAG is just too powerful.  They read it and imagine Jesus sitting in their living rooms with them, reading to them the letter he sent 2000 years ago, and they saved it in an old shoe box for just this meeting. 

Offline Nam

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2012, 12:58:08 AM »
Those people do not represent the vast majority of Christians who actually do not or have not read the Bible. My mother has been a Christian her entire life she didn't start reading the Bible 'til a few months ago when her oldest brother died of cancer.

You know in church when the pastor (or whomever) says, "Turn to your Bible, page...", they look down, turn, and then look right back up to hear the pastor. They rarely or never read it themselves.

I've seen it a plethora of times in my life.

-Nam

Offline gonegolfing

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2012, 08:41:46 AM »
What do you think the Christian has his/her views deeply rooted in,SPAG(self projection as God) or their belief in both the old and new testament?. Most of the stuff that is contradictory in OT,NT is ignored or explained away,which is where SPAG comes into play.

Spag plays a much more important role in a Christians life than OT or NT does. They ignore rules and guidlines set out by Jesus and his "Daddy" and settle for little more than what they think (SPAG)...The OT and NT become less and less important and are used as more of a reference than anything else....thoughts?

Unlike Judaism, christianity has gone through so much speciation that its laughable. Individuals who take on the christian faith, treat it, and the bible, just like a grand buffet table and consume only what they deem as the tastiest and most enjoyable things to eat for them.

They create their own personal eating parameters that limit themselves to particular selections at the table and will rarely vary from that. In that scenario we also see that there's a wide range of consumption and have individuals who range from "moderate eaters" to "gluttonous eaters".....Either way and at the end of the day, under the umbrella of religion, exists thousands of different versions of personal gods and the carefully designed doctrines that support them.
"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2012, 09:40:59 AM »
picking what you like at the "grand buffet" is much more important to them than the actual "buffet" itself or who created their "buffett". The Bible and what God expects from his followers,is far less important in the 21st century than it was even 100 years ago. As modern convienences rolled in SPAG becomes the norm......be interesting to see if the word of God is abandoned all together in favour of what each individual sees as God through SPAG
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Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2012, 10:43:54 AM »
SPAG and the Bible are mutually reinforcing. 

The writers of the all the books of which Jews and Xians cobbled together their various Magic Books were all engaged in SPAG, consciously or otherwise, the cynics as well as the delusional. 

Since the Bible contains so much SPAG, it's naturally easily for the minority of Xians who read the Bible to SPAG and yet tell themselves they are following the Bible. 

And since the Bible is so vast, contains both passages of sublime poetic beauty and batshit crazy sadistic violence, and so contradictory, the only way it is possible for a sane human to read even 1/3 of it and still believe it is perfect and magic is either engage in super-Orwellian doublethink (such as Xian theologians, the supreme all-time masters doublethink) or selectively push from consciousness anything that might trigger dissonance.

And in the meantime, cherry-pick for tolerance and/or bigotry as you so choose. 

In my own life, one of the key steps toward atheism, though I didn't know it at the time, was when I finally sat down and read the 4 Gospels.   It's interesting that when people read significant portions of the Bible consecutuively, they tend to be either come away as unbelievers or batshit crazy believers.  The worst of the latter being the intellectual theologians, condemned as they are to spending the rest of their lives keeping chained and enslaved their great mental facilities. 

Krakauer's amazing book, Under the Banner of Heaven, contains as one of it's themes the idea that the Mormon Murderers acted in a manner consistent with a Biblical tradition of god ordering his followers to whack certain people...that religious murders are supported by the traditions of the Bible of the Abrahamic religions. 

The Xian Bible contains the story of Pentacost, in which the holy ghost descends upon the early church people as tonges of fire, giving them superhuman powers and understanding.  This story of the holy ghost possessing people is one of the most dangerous, because it means that god can speak inside your  head and tell you to do batshit crazy stuff that isn't even IN the Bible!  The holy ghost might be the supreme instrument of SPAG. 

My god, the more I think about Xianity, the nuttier it seems.  I need a break.  Back to work!
« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 10:45:42 AM by flapdoodle64 »

Offline gonegolfing

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2012, 10:52:39 AM »
picking what you like at the "grand buffet" is much more important to them than the actual "buffet" itself or who created their "buffett". The Bible and what God expects from his followers,is far less important in the 21st century than it was even 100 years ago. As modern convienences rolled in SPAG becomes the norm......be interesting to see if the word of God is abandoned all together in favour of what each individual sees as God through SPAG


The information age and technology are what I see as the most influential factors on the continued speciation and fine tuning being done to the numerous religions that we see. Most people of faith as they are learning so much more about their own religions and personal beliefs, and the beliefs and religions of others, are having to make adjustments--and sometimes drastic-- to how they think and behave in society. The internet has opened the eyes of people of faith to the religious realities of our world and this can't help but cause individual change and adjustment in some of them.

Some make next to no changes, some make minor changes, and some have delved even deeper into the life of faith and become more bizarre and radical. But the wonderful thing is that the category of "nonbelief" has also seen growth because of the internet, and people, like myself, have been informed enough to walk away from religious faith, and have been enabled and empowered by the internet to have a voice, and also been inspired to be involved in more activism and to hide no longer.

The great hope of the atheist is that the internet will go down in history as the best and primary tool that was used by reason to put the religious meme in its rightful place....out of commission and no longer a valid system of behaviour to be passed on.
"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2012, 07:20:22 PM »
GG as they must rely almost totally on Spag to retain their religion,because the info is at their fingers,Spag becomes the only thing left to hold onto. The internet and the info it contains will either force them to rely on SPAG alone or to like so many on this forum abandon religious views alltogether. All hail the new god the inter-webs
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Offline pingnak

Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2012, 02:34:50 AM »
100% SPAG.

Any god is just a sock puppet to spew whatever hate the believers have.

Offline Nam

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2012, 07:32:32 AM »
What I enjoy, or enjoyed since I don't watch tv anymore unless it's on DVD, is when. Those in the media or the ones they have on their show state that the person (i.e. the religious person) is misinterpreting the particular passage and they know what it actually says compared to the person who interpreted differently than they did. Like "it was meant to be taken metaphorical/figuratively and not literal..." etc., as if they know more than the next person. To me: if it says it: then perhaps it should be taken at face-value.

I mean, does one think people in the past took those particular parts other than literally?

-Nam

Offline DKEN

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2012, 08:47:08 AM »
     The Bible is to be taken literally or it does not make sense.  The problem is that God dealt differently with man in the OT than the New T.  This view of the Bible is called dispensational.  God, Himself, did not change, but man was not ready right from the start to catch all that God had planned and had to be spoon fed truth.   The New T. gives great insight into the OT.  The writers wanted the new believers to understand Jesus and what He did in dying, being buried, resurrected, and ascended.   Jesus Himself, on the road to Emmaus with the two disciples showed them how the OT spoke of Him after He was raised from the dead.  Luke 24:14 - 32   In particular, see vs. 25, 26, 27.
     While many on this site say that the Bible does not make sense or that it is jibberish, if you search through the history, language of the times, and customs that were prevalent back then, you can understand the Bible, too.  It is not easy and takes a lot of work, but if you seek you shall find, knock, and it shall be opened unto you, ask, and it shall be given unto you.  That is a promise from God and either it is true or the Bible should be used for wrapping fish, as many on this site believe already.  Sincerity is called for.  While I can't tell if some one is sincere,  Jeremiah 17:9,10 says God sees the heart.  When some one sets out to find out if these things are real and sure, if they are lightly looking it is an elusive thing.  If they diligently seek Him, He will be found.  The seeking must be through humility, though, not through arrogance. 

Offline Nam

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2012, 08:51:10 AM »
^So, all the poetic verses are meant to be taken literally?

-Nam

Offline DKEN

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2012, 08:55:53 AM »
^So, all the poetic verses are meant to be taken literally?

-Nam
     There are impreccatory Psalms that I have trouble with sometimes.  Usually if there are allegories or illustrations, the Bible will give you a heads up.  It may take some thinking and careful examination and some times meditating for awhile.  Some passages are more difficult than others. 
     Do you have any in particular that you think are troublesome?

Offline DKEN

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2012, 08:57:23 AM »
100% SPAG.

Any god is just a sock puppet to spew whatever hate the believers have.


That is kind of cynical, don't you think?

Offline Nam

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2012, 08:59:02 AM »
^So, why the run-a-round? I asked you a question: are the poetic verses meant to be literal as you state that everything in the Bible is supposed to be literal?

It's a yes or no question.

-Nam

Offline DKEN

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2012, 09:01:47 AM »
picking what you like at the "grand buffet" is much more important to them than the actual "buffet" itself or who created their "buffett". The Bible and what God expects from his followers,is far less important in the 21st century than it was even 100 years ago. As modern convienences rolled in SPAG becomes the norm......be interesting to see if the word of God is abandoned all together in favour of what each individual sees as God through SPAG


The information age and technology are what I see as the most influential factors on the continued speciation and fine tuning being done to the numerous religions that we see. Most people of faith as they are learning so much more about their own religions and personal beliefs, and the beliefs and religions of others, are having to make adjustments--and sometimes drastic-- to how they think and behave in society. The internet has opened the eyes of people of faith to the religious realities of our world and this can't help but cause individual change and adjustment in some of them.

Some make next to no changes, some make minor changes, and some have delved even deeper into the life of faith and become more bizarre and radical. But the wonderful thing is that the category of "nonbelief" has also seen growth because of the internet, and people, like myself, have been informed enough to walk away from religious faith, and have been enabled and empowered by the internet to have a voice, and also been inspired to be involved in more activism and to hide no longer.

The great hope of the atheist is that the internet will go down in history as the best and primary tool that was used by reason to put the religious meme in its rightful place....out of commission and no longer a valid system of behaviour to be passed on.

You are not the first to think Christianity is on the way out.  Most of the famous non-believers died a long time ago, though.

Offline DKEN

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2012, 09:04:10 AM »
^So, why the run-a-round? I asked you a question: are the poetic verses meant to be literal as you state that everything in the Bible is supposed to be literal?

It's a yes or no question.

-Nam
Are you asking because you want to know, or just so I say something that you can tear me up over?

Offline DKEN

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2012, 09:06:05 AM »
Really, some are to be taken literaly and some are allegory and some illustrate larger points and some have prophesy in them.  So you must take them on an individual basis.

Offline DKEN

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2012, 09:13:30 AM »
Sorry, I gotta go.  I'll read later.  These are some interesting questions.  Thanks.

Offline Nam

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2012, 09:15:24 AM »
Really, some are to be taken literaly and some are allegory and some illustrate larger points and some have prophesy in them.  So you must take them on an individual basis.

How can they be anything but literal if you stated everything in the Bible is to be taken literally?

Also, you still haven't answered my question.

Poeticism showcases allegory, metaphor, similitudes, literalism, figurativism, and analogies. Much of what is in the OT/NT showcases much of these aspects which makes it difficult for me to believe you've read the Bible 'cause if you had you would take note of all these factors and not state such a thing as what you did, and then contradict that by statingthat some things are meant to be taken allegorical: a clear contradiction of what you initially stated.

And you think I may be having difficulty with the Bible.


-Nam

Offline Ivellios

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2012, 09:28:37 AM »
Are you asking because you want to know, or just so I say something that you can tear me up over?

You've got the whole thing wrong. Who wrote the Bible? God, right? If he was to "tear" anyone "up" it would be the All-Knowing All-Powerful one who is responsible for the bible. If you think it's about "you" then regardless whether you admit to it or not, subconsiously you know it's all SPAG. You're just in denial and any attack upon the Bible you take as an attack upon you, since the words being attacked are YOUR words, not God's.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2012, 09:29:19 AM »
     The Bible is to be taken literally or it does not make sense.  The problem is that God dealt differently with man in the OT than the New T.  This view of the Bible is called dispensational.  God, Himself, did not change, but man was not ready right from the start to catch all that God had planned and had to be spoon fed truth.   The New T. gives great insight into the OT.  The writers wanted the new believers to understand Jesus and what He did in dying, being buried, resurrected, and ascended.   Jesus Himself, on the road to Emmaus with the two disciples showed them how the OT spoke of Him after He was raised from the dead.  Luke 24:14 - 32   In particular, see vs. 25, 26, 27.
     While many on this site say that the Bible does not make sense or that it is jibberish, if you search through the history, language of the times, and customs that were prevalent back then, you can understand the Bible, too.  It is not easy and takes a lot of work, but if you seek you shall find, knock, and it shall be opened unto you, ask, and it shall be given unto you.  That is a promise from God and either it is true or the Bible should be used for wrapping fish, as many on this site believe already.  Sincerity is called for.  While I can't tell if some one is sincere,  Jeremiah 17:9,10 says God sees the heart.  When some one sets out to find out if these things are real and sure, if they are lightly looking it is an elusive thing.  If they diligently seek Him, He will be found.  The seeking must be through humility, though, not through arrogance.
um ok  what does this have to do with spag?
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Offline screwtape

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2012, 09:44:55 AM »
     While many on this site say that the Bible does not make sense or that it is jibberish, if you search through the history, language of the times, and customs that were prevalent back then, you can understand the Bible, too. 

When I was still a xian and my faith was hanging on by a thread and I was looking for reasons to believe, I did this.  Within two weeks I concluded the bible was a collection of mythological stories no different than the Greeks or Hindus or anyone else.  I could not believe in god anymore.  If the OT is a fable, the NT is even less than that.  I had no reason in the world, other than habit, to continue to call myself a xian.

I sought.  But when I knocked , I discovered not only was there no one home, but I was knocking on a plywood fascade, a set piece propped up with 2x4s, not an actual house.

It is not easy and takes a lot of work, but if you seek you shall find, knock, and it shall be opened unto you, ask, and it shall be given unto you.  That is a promise from God and either it is true or the Bible should be used for wrapping fish, as many on this site believe already.  Sincerity is called for.  While I can't tell if some one is sincere,  Jeremiah 17:9,10 says God sees the heart.  When some one sets out to find out if these things are real and sure, if they are lightly looking it is an elusive thing.  If they diligently seek Him, He will be found.  The seeking must be through humility, though, not through arrogance.

The problem I have with all this, D, is it essentially a self congratulating statement that vilifies non-believers for not being sincere in the first place.  It is a tautology that is designed to reinforce in-group out-group divisions. 

Most of us here were xians at one point.  We did not decide to stop believing in god.  For many of us it was a surprising conclusion that we already no longer believed.

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Offline DKEN

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2012, 09:48:12 AM »
Are you asking because you want to know, or just so I say something that you can tear me up over?

You've got the whole thing wrong. Who wrote the Bible? God, right? If he was to "tear" anyone "up" it would be the All-Knowing All-Powerful one who is responsible for the bible. If you think it's about "you" then regardless whether you admit to it or not, subconsiously you know it's all SPAG. You're just in denial and any attack upon the Bible you take as an attack upon you, since the words being attacked are YOUR words, not God's.
touche.  Sorry, I am just a mouthpiece.  You are right.  It is not about me, just what has been done for me. 
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 10:00:53 AM by DKEN »

Offline DKEN

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2012, 09:58:01 AM »
     While many on this site say that the Bible does not make sense or that it is jibberish, if you search through the history, language of the times, and customs that were prevalent back then, you can understand the Bible, too. 

When I was still a xian and my faith was hanging on by a thread and I was looking for reasons to believe, I did this.  Within two weeks I concluded the bible was a collection of mythological stories no different than the Greeks or Hindus or anyone else.  I could not believe in god anymore.  If the OT is a fable, the NT is even less than that.  I had no reason in the world, other than habit, to continue to call myself a xian.

I sought.  But when I knocked , I discovered not only was there no one home, but I was knocking on a plywood fascade, a set piece propped up with 2x4s, not an actual house.

It is not easy and takes a lot of work, but if you seek you shall find, knock, and it shall be opened unto you, ask, and it shall be given unto you.  That is a promise from God and either it is true or the Bible should be used for wrapping fish, as many on this site believe already.  Sincerity is called for.  While I can't tell if some one is sincere,  Jeremiah 17:9,10 says God sees the heart.  When some one sets out to find out if these things are real and sure, if they are lightly looking it is an elusive thing.  If they diligently seek Him, He will be found.  The seeking must be through humility, though, not through arrogance.

The problem I have with all this, D, is it essentially a self congratulating statement that vilifies non-believers for not being sincere in the first place.  It is a tautology that is designed to reinforce in-group out-group divisions. 

Most of us here were xians at one point.  We did not decide to stop believing in god.  For many of us it was a surprising conclusion that we already no longer believed.
     With me it was just the other way round.  I was what could be called a "hell raiser" when a youth.  I knew that I was a sinner in the Bible sense and thought that there was no way I could get right with God.  The 10 commandments killed me over and over again.  I could not be good enough.  Just as the Bible says, "There is none righteous, no not one."  I was included and could not wash myself clean.  It was only when, by faith, I accepted what the Bible taught about God and about me that I was born again.  Every thing changed in my life from that point on.  Not perfect, I was still me, but I knew things would never be the same.  I was what the Bible calls a new creature.  It was only a start, though.  To keep growing I need to keep making decisions when shown Truth.   I did not always get it right.  And I am still an enormous sinner, only forgiven.  Saved by grace through faith.  It's not about me, it's about Him and what He did for me.
     I appreciate what you are saying, though.  My wife was a Catholic.  She did not know why.  She had no idea what it was all about.  She had never even opened a Bible.  It was all new to her.  My parents raised me in one of the cults.  Talk about SPAG!!  When I left, my family disowned me.  I did not leave because I became a Xian (nice shortcut), but because I could not be good enough and did not want to be a hypocrite.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 10:05:25 AM by DKEN »

Offline Nam

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Re: SPAG or Bible?
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2012, 10:18:46 AM »
DKEN, now that you're back: are you going to answer the question?

-Nam