Author Topic: Did Jesus Foresee The US Constitution?  (Read 687 times)

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Offline pingnak

Did Jesus Foresee The US Constitution?
« on: June 02, 2012, 01:20:54 PM »
http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/05/is-the-constitution-mormon.html

For Mormons, the Constitution was a necessary great prologue for the real endeavor: the restoration of the Gospel, i.e. the triumph of Mormonism over other forms of Christianity.

Offline Nick

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Re: Did Jesus Foresee The US Constitution?
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2012, 02:55:35 PM »
And now they are one step away from getting a 1%ter in the Whte House.  This country is in very real trouble.  So are atheists.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Did Jesus Foresee The US Constitution?
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2012, 03:02:36 PM »
Don't worry about a President Romney.  Won't happen.  He's just holding a place the only reason the Repubs are running is to collect campaign contributions and to say they tried.  But nobody likes Romney. 

The Obama presidency is the best of all possible world for the Repubs.  The Dems let the Repubs run wild in the house and senate, and Obama gives the Repubs everything they want and more, so we have in fact an administration that, except for the same sex marriage and the end of DADT, is to the right of Bush II.

Yet because Obama is supposedly a Dem or a 'Liberal', as the country continues to go down the shithole, the Repubs get to blame 'liberalism.'  It's a perfect racket for them.

We would actually be better off with Romney presidency.  Remember when Bush II tried to dismantle Social Security? The Dems screamed bloody murder.  Yet when Obama does it, there will be scarcly a whimper. 

Dems will give at least a little token resistance to Republican badness, but refuse to push back when a so-called Democrat pulls the same shenanighans.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Did Jesus Foresee The US Constitution?
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2012, 03:45:08 PM »
flapdoodle:  Don't assume about Romney.  And, no offense, but a Romney presidency would be a disaster.  It's easy to say that we'd be better off with Romney as president...but the fact of the matter is that a Romney presidency plus a Republican-controlled House and Senate (both of which are possible this year) would seriously limit what Democrats could do in response.  Basically, they could filibuster (block cloture).  That's it.  And as we've seen over Obama's four years, there's some pretty sharp limits on how effective that tactic can be in actually stopping legislation (plus, there's ways for the majority to dispose of cloture if the minority's use of it becomes too onerous).

I simply do not see two more years of Republicans in power, especially the ultra-partisan Republicans that have disposed of compromise and cooperation, as leaving us better off.  Even if Democrats were to get their acts together, all it would result in is more partisan Democrats, with the net result that things would be worse off as a whole.

Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Did Jesus Foresee The US Constitution?
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2012, 04:07:38 PM »
As we seen since 2009, it doesn't matter who has the majority in the house and senate, because even when the Dems supposedly outnumber the Repubs, Obama and the Dems pre-emptively capituate.  The Repubs have controlled the agenda for a decade now.  We're screwed with Obama or Romney.   I'm voting green, or socialist, or working people's party, or writing in the name of my buddy.   I voted for Obama in 2008, and boy, do I regret squandering my vote.  It would have been more meaningful for me to have stood on the courthouse steps and burnt my ballot than to have voted for Barry O'Sellout.

The only reason the plutocracy hasn't lined us all up against the wall and had us shot is that think we still might buy some of them I-phones and SUV's.  Soon as our credit dries up to much for that, they'll be done with us altogether...

Offline Nick

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Re: Did Jesus Foresee The US Constitution?
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2012, 04:16:54 PM »
You really think you wasted your vote for Obama in 2008?  He stopped at best and slowed at worse a coming depression.

What the hell do you think things would have been like with McCain and (God forbid) Palin in power?
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Did Jesus Foresee The US Constitution?
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2012, 04:23:44 PM »
You really think you wasted your vote for Obama in 2008?  He stopped at best and slowed at worse a coming depression.

What the hell do you think things would have been like with McCain and (God forbid) Palin in power?

Pretty much the same, except that liberals would have screamed bloody murder about the President of the USA assassinating US citizens w/o trial or due process. 

You think about it, this is the argument for Xianity:

'Sure, Yahweh is a total sadistic naricisstic dickhead with a bunch of insane rules and a capricious sense of fairness, but it's better to put up with an hour and half of church every week than to go to hell for eternity.' 

The only argument this year for voting Dem is the assumption that Repubs would be worse.

And this assumption cannot be proven.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Did Jesus Foresee The US Constitution?
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2012, 04:54:24 PM »
You pulled out these arguments before, as I recall, and they went nowhere.  Literally.

However, your comparison is a double-edged sword.  Even conceding for the sake of argument that you can't predict whether a Republican presidency would be worse, the same applies to your predictions about a second term Obama presidency.  In both cases, past behavior predicts future actions, therefore, if one can't be proven, neither can the other.

Also, your intention to vote for a third party does not absolve you of the results of a vote, anymore than my intention to vote Democrat puts me to blame for those results.  You will have to deal with whoever is elected regardless of where your vote goes.  If you had voted third-party, or not voted, in 2008, Obama would still have been elected, he would still have done everything he did, and how you feel/felt about it wouldn't have changed anything.

Trying to use hindsight from the 2008 election to predict which candidate would be worse in 2012 is worse than useless, in my opinion.  Or do you presume that Obama is not capable of learning from his experiences as president, and doing things differently these next four years if he does get elected again?

Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Did Jesus Foresee The US Constitution?
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2012, 05:12:35 PM »
Typically the 2nd term of a presidency is the lame duck term, wherein he has less power.  So I can't imagine Obama suddenly becoming a voice for American workers or liberals or progressives now, after having been a defacto Republican for over 3 years. 

Yes, I've talked about this before, and I admit, I was in the minority. 

But Obama is the embodiment of a bankrupt political system, and a lot of people see that now, whereas 4 years ago a lot of us thought Obama was our last chance. 

I do hate to see intelligent people kidding themselves.  Everyone I know who will vote for Obama is not doing it because he expects anything good will come of it...they are simply voting against the Republicans.  This simply falling for the blackmailer who seems less evil.  This isn't a real choice. 

Well, of course I will never vote for a Republican.  That's the point...I won't vote for a Republican even if he calls himself a Democrat. 

With a Romney presidency, it will be somewhat more in the open.  Republicans will have to take ownership for the mess.  Obama puts a fake liberal paint job on a shitty republican car.

Having Obama out there, governing as a Conservative Republican but pretending to be a democrat just confuses progressives and nullifies our effectiveness. 


Offline Hatter23

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Re: Did Jesus Foresee The US Constitution?
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2012, 09:27:15 AM »
Republicans will have to take ownership for the mess. 

Are you kidding? Republicans still idolize Reagan calling him the greatest President ever while the median income after inflation dropped quite a bit while he was in office.  Taking ownership of a mess? The closest that ever happened during my lifetime is Jimmy Carter, and you can see how history treats him. No one will take any ownership of any mess ever in politics. It is suicide.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Frank

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Re: Did Jesus Foresee The US Constitution?
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2012, 09:53:52 AM »
I'm voting green, or socialist, or working people's party, or writing in the name of my buddy.   I voted for Obama in 2008, and boy, do I regret squandering my vote.  It would have been more meaningful for me to have stood on the courthouse steps and burnt my ballot than to have voted for Barry O'Sellout.


A lot of people in this country were angry with the last government so voted for minority parties. Now we have a viciously rightwing conservative government. All those people are now repenting their stupidity. But it's too late we're stuck with them for at least another 3 years and they'll do a lot of damage between now and then.

Never waste a vote by using it as a protest. Any hopes you may for the future lie with Obama. He's not perfect but compared to that rightwing bloodsucker Romney he's a saint.
"Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions fall away, atheism is what is left behind".

Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Did Jesus Foresee The US Constitution?
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2012, 10:48:00 AM »
Well, I'm just going to say that Obama and Romney, due to way our system actually works now, are only different in a cosmetic sense.  The media is torquing up libs to be afraid of Romney just the media torques up conservatives with the false meme that Obama is a socialist.  I don't disagree that we should fear Romney...I only disagree in that I think Obama is just as bad and possibly worse due to the fact that he can slaughter Muslims wholesale and libs will not push back.  With Romney, there might be at least token pushback.  But whichever becomes pres, it  won't matter.  Whereas if I spend my vote on a 3rd party, at least my vote will not be used to give an air of false legitimacy to either Romney or Obama.  That's the downside of voting for either of these guys...every vote counted for him will be considered as part of a 'mandate' thus giving Obama to cloak of false legitimacy to kill even more Muslims and start dismantling social security. 

But getting back to the thread topic:


http://wwajdblogger.blogspot.com/2011/09/wwajd-about-us-constitution.html

I just found out about this so-called artist McNaughton who paints all kinds of this crap.  As the USA continues to slide into the abyss, expect more of this kind of crap...

Actually, in the USA throughout my lifetime, there has always been a kind myth around the Constitution, as though it were magically inspired by god.  No one said it aloud, but it was there.  The founding fathers heads were sculpted in marble, to look like Greek gods.  No doubt, the Constitution was an important development in the science of govt. and the evolution of human rights, but it is a work of minds and men, not magic. 

I think this is one of the things that makes the USA so dangerous, the idea that it god favors the USA is a huge unspoken component of American exceptionalism. 

There's a whole industry out there manufacturing evidence that the founding fathers were all devout Xians who in their wisdom wished for the USA to be 100% fundamentalist Xian. 

Offline Nick

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Re: Did Jesus Foresee The US Constitution?
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2012, 12:01:55 PM »
In terms of the original question...Yes, Jesus did foresee the US Constution.  Few people know this because it is locked in the vaults at the Vatican but Jesus wore red, white, and blue underwear.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Did Jesus Foresee The US Constitution?
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2012, 09:13:51 PM »
Obama is one of the worst, if not the worst, presidents of all time.

Doubling student loan interest rates.
Former drug user himself, put more drug users in prison than any other president.
Supporting a war on drugs that has cost billions of dollars and thousands of lives.
Knowingly killing innocent civilians with drone attacks and labeling the victims militants.
Filling his staff with former RIAA lawyers, imposing and enforcing unfair copyright laws.
By far the highest national debt ever, even when adjusted for inflation.

Romney is insane, and a liar, but would he be worse than Obama? It's pretty sad that your only choices are so pathetically horrible. I'm so glad I don't live in the US anymore.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Did Jesus Foresee The US Constitution?
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2012, 10:26:08 AM »
Thanks for that post, Joe, because even though I like to think I am secure about my own ideas, the truth is that regarding Obama, I feel pretty isolated among liberal circles.

I truly think the US election system has devolved into a cruel sham, where in order to attain a false sense of legitimacy around a (rightfully) unpopular president, the Ruling Class merely puts up an alternative that appears more horrible. 

The act of deciding and voting in favor of a candidate also produces a sense of investment in many voters as well...I've had lots of libs say to me: 'If you dislike Obama's policies so much, why did you vote for him?'  A common statement, which implies that if you vote for a candidate, then you are obliged to agree with him for a minimum of 4 years. 

(There's a related fallacy lurking in our brains which operates this way: 'If candidate A is pure evil, then candidate B must be a better choice.'  This fallacy operates in our pseudo-democracy on a massive scale...it is the unspoken idea behind negative advertising. But the reality is that say we know Dracula is pure evil, and the other party is running Frankenstein.  Certainly Frankenstein is not as evil as Dracula, but do you really think Frankenstein would make a good public administrator?)

You combine this unstated fallacy with the fact that libs feel that Romney is a gun to their head, ordering them to vote for Obama or else, this illustrates how pseudo-democracy works in the USA.  In terms of the presidential election, the USA is certainly a pseudo-democracy. 

Therefore, I refuse to contribute to Obama's pseudo-legitimacy by giving him my vote. 

The choices aren't good here.  But as it is, it is impossible in 2012 to elect a decent president.  Voting for a third party or alternate candidate is at least a message to the Ruling Class that we know the Dem/Repub show is just a sick game.  Admittedly, it won't do much.  Right now in the USA, the real politics is in the streets. 

Offline Quesi

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Re: Did Jesus Foresee The US Constitution?
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2012, 12:52:09 PM »
Obama has not been the president I hoped he would be.  I will never forgive him for the growing number of assassinations in foreign countries on his watch, just as I'll never forgive Clinton for sending the Haitians back to die. 

Obama played nice with the bullies who had him in a strangle-hold, and were determined to make sure he accomplished nothing.  He didn't accomplish much of what he attempted, but perhaps his biggest flaw has been his inability to celebrate his real accomplishments.

He got us out of Iraq, and has a date to get us out of Afghanistan.  That is huge.

Then there are lots of little things that he did that no one even seems aware of. 

So he failed to implement immigration reform.  I'm disappointed.  But there are a few things he did that needed to be done, and no one is talking about. 

He closed prisons for children.  You didn't know we had prisons for children?  We did. In for-profit prisons!  Undocumented children (or children who were assumed to be undocumented) were put in prisons. 



No one even seems to know this.

He also implemented changes to immigration regulations, which would help some families stay together.  Under the current law, if someone is married to a US citizen, and they are undocumented, and they have been out of status for more than 12 months, they are banned from the US for 10 years.  So before they can become legal residents via their marriage, they must leave the country for 10 YEARS.  Most people don't even realize that.  But under these new regulations (which will go into effect in a few months) if families can show extreme hardship to the US citizen, then the spouse of the US citizen will not be banned for 10 years. 

Since nobody realizes that this stuff was happening in the first place, no one is celebrating the fact that Obama is implementing changes. 

I'm not as excited as I was 4 years ago.  But I'm voting for Obama again, and hoping he stands up to the bullies a little better this time around. 

Offline Death over Life

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Re: Did Jesus Foresee The US Constitution?
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2012, 01:17:51 PM »
Although I can see now where a lot of flapdoodle is coming from, and understanding why Obama is one of the worst presidents, he is still better than Romney in almost every way, shape, and form.

The main problem with Obama is the pandering to the far-right that he's done, but thankfully it has allowed him to do some of what he wanted to do. I think what it ultimately boils down to is regardless of who the President is, they are puppets to the congress.

Much of what Obama wanted to do with Immigration Reform for example, was shot down by the Repubs, like the DREAM Act, which I heavily support.

I need to post a Bill Maher video that explains why Obama has been a bad president, but isn't necessarily a bad or extreme president.


Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Did Jesus Foresee The US Constitution?
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2012, 01:33:10 PM »
This is an interesting discussion. 

I just want to ask this question:

Are people who are holding their nose and voting for Obama really sure they are not just voting against Romney?

If you are voting for Obama just because Romney is worse (and he is, certainly) do you realize the trap you are in....

That you can be made to vote for literally ANY candidate, no matter how vile and odious, so long as the oppostion party can find a candidate just slightly more vile and odious? 

When you can be made to vote for a candidate you find vile and odious, are you really making a choice?

Or when you can be made to redefine 'vile and odious' due to the presense of greater degrees of vileness or odiousness, can you trust your judgements?

Just asking.

Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Did Jesus Foresee The US Constitution?
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2012, 01:36:23 PM »
Regarding the Far Right, I kind of think Obama uses them the way the church uses the devil. 

Lets them run wild so he can blame them for his own regressive, plutocrat friendly, warmongering agenda. 

If the Repubs suddenly wanted to stop drone-killing Muslims in the mid-east and wanted jobs for Americans and health care for all, Obama would crap his pants. 

Offline Death over Life

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Re: Did Jesus Foresee The US Constitution?
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2012, 02:47:30 PM »
This is an interesting discussion. 

I just want to ask this question:

Are people who are holding their nose and voting for Obama really sure they are not just voting against Romney?

If you are voting for Obama just because Romney is worse (and he is, certainly) do you realize the trap you are in....

That you can be made to vote for literally ANY candidate, no matter how vile and odious, so long as the oppostion party can find a candidate just slightly more vile and odious? 

When you can be made to vote for a candidate you find vile and odious, are you really making a choice?

Or when you can be made to redefine 'vile and odious' due to the presense of greater degrees of vileness or odiousness, can you trust your judgements?

Just asking.

By the end of the night, it wouldn’t matter the reasons. Although they are one in the same, one is more extreme than the other, but since they are competing, it’s going to be which one is in the opinion, the greater or lesser evil.

The only major differences are the social reasons and the tax reasons. One is for gay-marriage, and is actually thinking about ending the drug war this time (hopefully) and legalize said drugs, and the other one is against it all. One wants to get us out of Afghanistan, the other wants us to go back to Iraq, and start wars with other countries like Iran and Libya for example.

The very few differences where it’s not a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation where I’ll be basing my vote on, and yes, it’s towards Obama.

Even if Obama were to go far left all of a sudden, as the Maher video said, “What?”.

As for the tax reasons, in my local newspaper, they released Obama and Romney’s tax plans as to how they will tax themselves if they are President, under both if elected. Here are the results they have shown:

For beginners, percentage wise, here are the tax plans for the Year 2010 under Obama:

Obama = 26% in taxes
Romney = 14% in taxes

Under Romney’s plan, both Romney and Obama will be paying less taxes than they already are. Percentage wise, here is how much they both would be taxed:

Obama = 18%
Romney = 13%

Now, under Obama’s plan, they both will be paying quite a bit more in taxes. Romney will really feel the sting though:

Obama = 28%
Romney = 34%

So based off of their tax plans, and then finding out who really pays taxes as shown in this news article here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/29/irs-study-income-tax-wealthy-rich-americans_n_1553885.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl5%7Csec3_lnk2%26pLid%3D165165

I would definitely support Obama’s tax plan where the rich get taxed more, than Romney’s where the rich get even more cuts, and loaded off to the middle-poor class, already dying off since they can’t afford anything anymore, getting to pay the rest of the bill.

Under the candidate‘s tax plans, there will be an estimated difference of $7.8 Million vs. $3 Million. Now, if I read the paper correctly, 7.8 or 3 is how much Romney will have to pay in taxes.

Under Romney’s plans, Obama’s tax will be dropping to an estimated 18% as opposed to Obama’s plans. Monetary wise, the difference is: $248,000 or $ 158,000.

Now, since in 2009 we middle-poor class people get the brunt of abuse, and get the most of our money taken away, while over 10,000 people who made between $250,000-$1,000,000 per year, paid $0.00 in taxes, I like Obama’s tax plans to be honest with you.

Regarding the Far Right, I kind of think Obama uses them the way the church uses the devil. 

Lets them run wild so he can blame them for his own regressive, plutocrat friendly, warmongering agenda. 

If the Repubs suddenly wanted to stop drone-killing Muslims in the mid-east and wanted jobs for Americans and health care for all, Obama would crap his pants.

In all honesty though, I see where you are coming from, because he does come off as such, but then again, what happens when the pubs are gone? He can’t use that anymore. In the 2 years where he had free-reign, not much was done, but under the GOP house, anything He attempted to do to help the middle-poor class was slapped down by the GOP, so it can appear as such.

Then again, the important information we should ask and compare is what happened under Obama with a full Democratic Congress vs. now where Obama has a Dem Senate and a GOP House, and how polarizing those 2 are being, and see which one has done us more harm, and which one has done us more justice.

Don’t worry though, Obama’s being re-elected, or I may need to round up a few friends and immigrate to Canada.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 02:49:27 PM by Death over Life »

Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Did Jesus Foresee The US Constitution?
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2012, 03:25:53 PM »
I don't think Obama wants to get us out of Afganistan.

We're not out of Iraq, you know that, don't you?  We just call the soldiers 'advisors' now.  Also, we still have mercenaries there. 

And I think Obama is already fighting a drone war in Pakistan, for all intents and purposes.  The drone wars were starting under Bush II, but now the Dems are expanding them. 

It's nice that Obama cares about the rights of Americans to get married...I wish he cared about the rights of Muslims to live.

It's also nice Obama stopped DADT.  It would be nicer more if he stopped sending soldiers to die needlessly.  Also would be nice if he apologized for the torture of patriot Bradly Manning and released. 

I look at Obama's economic record and if a Repub had done these things, we would call them all out for the sham measures they really are. 

I look at Obama's shamless victory lap regarding the assassination of Osama, sending a team of paid and heavily armed thugs to rub out a sick old man, and it stinks of John McCain. 

I don't blame Obama, however, I blame his bosses.  And they are the same people who will boss Romney if elected.  But truly, I think Romney is in the game just to hold a place and for show.  The Man wants Obama.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Did Jesus Foresee The US Constitution?
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2012, 04:41:33 PM »
There are many things I would like Obama to do differently, because his policies are far too conservative and war-mongery. But I think he has done a good job with what he had to work with, considering that so many young and poor people do not vote, so the congress is pretty conservative as well. 

But just for improving our standing in the eyes of the world, and not being a complete fool like Bush, I give him a B overall. Considering where we would be today if McPalin had won, I up Obama's rating to A-.

One really important reason to vote for Obama: SCOTUS. A presidency is only four years, at the most eight. Supreme court is for life. And the decisions the court makes are some of the most important there are. We all are affected by those rulings, for good and for ill. Another loser like Clarence Thomas, one more Scalia, and another Alito would be the end of human rights in this country as we know it for the forseeable future.

Think I'm exaggerating? Do you like Citizen's United with the Koch billionaires completely controlling our elections? Do you like what happened in Wisconsin? Want more of the same? Then vote for Romney, or sit out the election and passively let Romney win.[1] 

 1. Ruling the Indian Removals of the 1830's unconstitutional, the Plessy vs Ferguson case upholding segregation based on race, the Brown vs Board integrating the schools, Roe vs Wade de-criminalizing abortion. Important, life-changing stuff there.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Did Jesus Foresee The US Constitution?
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2012, 10:37:28 PM »
He got us out of Iraq, and has a date to get us out of Afghanistan.  That is huge.

A minor quibble.

When Obama took credit for "getting" us out of Iraq....he lied.

Quote
By STEVEN LEE MYERS
Published: July 19, 2008
HOUSTON — President Bush agreed to “a general time horizon” for withdrawing American troops in Iraq, the White House announced Friday
[1]

On November 27th 2008 the Bush signed the Status of Force Agreement which had been in negotiations for a year and outlined the exact timetable to withdraw from Iraq. Which Obama was apparently unable to honor.[2]
 1. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/19/world/middleeast/19iraq.html?pagewanted=all
 2. http://rightwingnews.com/iraq/obama-takes-credit-for-bushs-iraq-withdrawal-timeline/
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Offline Death over Life

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Re: Did Jesus Foresee The US Constitution?
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2012, 11:15:06 PM »
He got us out of Iraq, and has a date to get us out of Afghanistan.  That is huge.

A minor quibble.

When Obama took credit for "getting" us out of Iraq....he lied.

Quote
By STEVEN LEE MYERS
Published: July 19, 2008
HOUSTON — President Bush agreed to “a general time horizon” for withdrawing American troops in Iraq, the White House announced Friday
[1]

On November 27th 2008 the Bush signed the Status of Force Agreement which had been in negotiations for a year and outlined the exact timetable to withdraw from Iraq. Which Obama was apparently unable to honor.[2]
 1. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/19/world/middleeast/19iraq.html?pagewanted=all
 2. http://rightwingnews.com/iraq/obama-takes-credit-for-bushs-iraq-withdrawal-timeline/

Let us be honest, flapdoodle and jaybwell do have a point. The reason why Obama pulled out of Iraq is because of the fact that the President of Iraq was going to lay war-crime charges on the USA, unless they pull out immediately, and Obama said, we're gone. That's why we may still have a small presence in Iraq, but overall we are out. The reason may be a stain on Obama, but by the end of the night, most of the troops are out.

My whole problem is, which isn't Obama's fault, the fact that all these wars were from our initial allies against Russia during the Cold Wars. I know people go to far on conspiracy theories, but some elements of them do have a point.

Offline IAmFirst

Re: Did Jesus Foresee The US Constitution?
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2012, 04:30:40 AM »
And another lovely thread which hijacks itself from the OP.  &)
2nd of all, if all you believe in is peer-reviewed papers, you won't go very far in life...

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