Author Topic: god/the devil made me do it ...if not one, how come the other?  (Read 1457 times)

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Offline kin hell

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The fantastical nature of faith (belief without requiring proof) requires only a willingness to believe.
It rewards the practitioner for behaviour which in any other field of human existence would be considered mad, or dangerous, ......or at least illogical.

It reinforces, as an underlying requirement, a blanket acceptance of (or willingness to turn a blind eye to) internal inconsistency.
It requires only a willingness to believe ....at all costs, (intellectual credibility being but the first).

Over the years I have started several threads here asking any theist to show what god/bible-given tools can be used to debunk the oft occurring claims of "god told me to kill my children" type events that sadly all too regularly grace our world news.

I have researched (to the best of my abilities), and can find not one recorded case where the "god told me to do it" defence has been given the slightest minuscule credence ever.

Not once.
Not ever.
By anyone.

Not even a single voice raised  saying
"hold on, perhaps god did tell this man/woman to murder her/his children?.."
or saying
"who are we to judge the workings of a god whose greatest provable attribute is that he/she/it works in mysterious ways?"

What does this mean?
What inferences must be drawn?

Please note, this is not about the xian god's morality ....... the bible gives us more than enough evidence that this god is more than willing to command the death of innocents, no, this is about modern xian beliefs and consistency.

So, if then, why not now?
If god commanded the deaths of innocents in the past, why is absolutely no credence given to such claims now?

If we are expected to believe that the xian god is the bible god, then where in the bible (or anywhere else for that matter) does it indicate that god has stopped interacting with his sheep?

Again I repeat the question, what tool does the modern xian use to deny legitimacy to a modern day claim of "god commanded me to kill my children...."?


As I have asked this several times, and have received no answers, I must infer that in fact there is no tool, no rule, no guide, ...there is only subjective belief.

So the inference regarding xian thought on this must be....
.....that you are not insane for believing in a god with a proven history of personal interaction and a parallel history of commanding infanticide
........ but you are insane for believing he/she/it talks to you.

So not once since the risible christ at least (as far as I have seen), has the defence "god made me murder my children..." been given the slightest credence[1].

It means that the overwhelming automatic xian response to claims such as this is ......"that there's one crazy loon saying things like that!"

The automatic denial of even the slightest possibility that god is only repeating what he/she/it is known to have done so often before ......is automatic.

The only inferences that can be made from this are

either
.....xians do not believe the bible (thus their god would/could never command such a thing and the apparent biblical precedence is error or lies)

or
.......xians deep down, just do not believe there is a god, and their (possibly subconscious) lack of belief is  fully exposed by the automatic and 100% one way denial of the "god made me do it..." defence.

Please note, that the absolute 100% absence of any non-partisan voice in defence of the "god made me do it" defence, is key.

Not one person ever (that I can see), from pompous pope to sheepish pew mollusc, has ever defended the possibility that perhaps "this" is an example of god working in mysterious ways and the defendant should be given the benefit of the doubt, as in,...... been targeted by god for some personal fucking up of ones life in his/her/its name....

Such defence would require a verdict of not guilty by way of sanity (and divine intervention).

But no, it is always the other way.
Not guilty by way of insanity.
The action is always condemned.

The whole pragmatic world calls it insanity, even the believers.


So now the supplementary question.

Let's play with the idea of allowing the xians the idiotic illogicality of their being able to judge god's will regarding denying "god made me.." claims
 Let us allow that their modern new age PC hippie zombie jesus god would never act so. (Only the devil would act in such a way)

Then the question must be in a xian society[2].....

Why is the "The devil made me do it..." defence, not given the slightest bit of credence either?

The "devil made me do it" defence is either automatically adjudged a ploy and awarded a guilty/sane outcome, or, very rarely, awarded a not-guilty/insane verdict


If god and the devil are locked in a battle for our souls, and the devil is the great deceiver and source of all evil, why is acknowledging he/she/it's power with a "The devil made me..." defence .....automatically deemed fraudulent or insane?


So god's influence is denied, and the devil's influence is denied.
By all.

What tool is being used to generate that infallible outcome?

It can only be inferred as knowledge.....

Subconscious, unspoken, hidden, denied but undeniable, knowledge

.....that there is no god.


















 1. I am happy to be proven incorrect in this ....I have only done the research that I am capable of doing
 2. since 1843 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/aron/qa227.htm
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: god/the devil made me do it ...if not one, how come the other?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2012, 11:44:20 PM »
What tool is being used to generate that infallible outcome?

It can only be inferred as knowledge.....

Subconscious, unspoken, hidden, denied but undeniable, knowledge

.....that there is no god.

In the case of "the devil made me do it": you are obviously still under the influence of Satan, so you should be killed.

In the case of "god made me do it": since no other good Christian ever claims that, you must be evil; and this is obvious by the way you look in newspaper photographs. Christians can automatically tell whether you are still under the influence of God or Satan, using their magic radar rings.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: god/the devil made me do it ...if not one, how come the other?
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2012, 11:41:23 AM »
Here in Oregon, near the town of Oregon City, there is a small sect called 'Followers in Christ' (FIC). 

This group believes in faith-healing.  Members of this group generally withold medical treatment from their children, and, not suprisingly, serious harm and death often result. 

A number of parents have been tried for manslaughter and related charges (I think negligent homicide, for one) and so far, none have faced serious jail time. 

Most have walked, actually, because until a few years back, Oregon's laws had a loophole exempting faith healers from laws treating negligent homicide, etc.  (The law was changed specifically as a result of the abuses of this group.) (Oregon juries have typically been lenient on these members because the members were acting according to their religious belief, and in the USA, there is an unchallenged assumption that religious belief is 'good.')


Despite numerous deaths from these practices, and despite a number of members facing criminal charges from these practices, the practice of witholding medical care from children continues within this group. 

This is a charismatic type religious group. 

I submit to you that most likely god is telling these folks to withold medical treatment to the children, else why would they continue to do so, in the face of the foreseeable and awful consequences?

Also, if you read Krakauer's fascinating book about Mormonism and some famous Mormon murders, I think the murderers in that book were murdering per god's directives.

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Offline cablebandit

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Re: god/the devil made me do it ...if not one, how come the other?
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2012, 03:58:16 PM »
fascinating stuff. I love this forum though I have only lurked before. I am going to ask some of my religious Facebook friends this question and see what their answer is.

Offline kin hell

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Re: god/the devil made me do it ...if not one, how come the other?
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2012, 07:43:09 PM »
What tool is being used to generate that infallible outcome?

It can only be inferred as knowledge.....

Subconscious, unspoken, hidden, denied but undeniable, knowledge

.....that there is no god.

In the case of "the devil made me do it": you are obviously still under the influence of Satan, so you should be killed.

In the case of "god made me do it": since no other good Christian ever claims that, you must be evil; and this is obvious by the way you look in newspaper photographs. Christians can automatically tell whether you are still under the influence of God or Satan, using their magic radar rings.

Pity they don't have the guts to define their judgements so unambiguously....

No mate, I'll have to go with my original premise, that the abject absolute failure of the credibility of "god/devil made me do it" defence is the loudest refutation to all the claims of knowledge of the existence of god.



Here in Oregon, near the town of Oregon City, there is a small sect called 'Followers in Christ' (FIC). 

This group believes in faith-healing.  Members of this group generally withold medical treatment from their children, and, not suprisingly, serious harm and death often result. 

Thanks for the reminder flapd. I'd completely forgotten this sort of slow murder.

Quote from: flapd
A number of parents have been tried for manslaughter and related charges (I think negligent homicide, for one) and so far, none have faced serious jail time. 

Most have walked, actually, because until a few years back, Oregon's laws had a loophole exempting faith healers from laws treating negligent homicide, etc.  (The law was changed specifically as a result of the abuses of this group.) (Oregon juries have typically been lenient on these members because the members were acting according to their religious belief, and in the USA, there is an unchallenged assumption that religious belief is 'good.')

relating this to the OP, I wonder how the these stupid FIC's argued their case?
Juries have been lenient.  .....I hear you
I wonder if that means that the FIC's beliefs have been accepted as true? ie: the juries accept that god has told these people to behave this way (which would argue against my OP's position that the "god told me..." defence is never accepted in court)
or
whether leniency has been granted because the general appraisal of god belief, as you say, is the "unchallenged assumption that religious belief is good"?

This last inferred judgement being,  that even though the belief system is judged wrong, insane?, murderous, irrational, etc.. the child killing practitioners should not be punished, because they acted from faith. And to have faith is good.
So while the practitioners may be deluded, and the outcome of their delusions terrible, they are not held to normal standards of culpability... (not because of insanity, but because at least they have faith)
That is scary-world thinking.


Quote from: flapd
Despite numerous deaths from these practices, and despite a number of members facing criminal charges from these practices, the practice of witholding medical care from children continues within this group.

Truthfully I don't know enough about this  (eg....the legal loopholes now closed etc etc,) but it does seem to follow that these people are not being given leniency because the juries believe the god-actually-spoke-to-me part of the OP's "god told me to do it...." defence.


Quote from: flapd
This is a charismatic type religious group. 

I submit to you that most likely god is telling these folks to withold medical treatment to the children, else why would they continue to do so, in the face of the foreseeable and awful consequences?

I don't know if that is accurate in the terms I intended re: the OP.
I agree that these people are interpreting something to appear to be a directive/law/commandment that demands they act in this way ( agreed...why else would they do it? ....idiots rule) but afaik they are not claiming personal communication ....voice of god directives  ...please correct me if I am wrong.



Quote from: flapd
Also, if you read Krakauer's fascinating book about Mormonism and some famous Mormon murders, I think the murderers in that book were murdering per god's directives.

thanks mate, but I tend to gutchurn reading these type books.. ;)


^Under the Banner of Heaven

Great book.

thanks for the link screwt, I'll look for a torrent

fascinating stuff. I love this forum though I have only lurked before. I am going to ask some of my religious Facebook friends this question and see what their answer is.

greetings fellow earthling...
Please let us know if you get any replies, I know I am very interested in what answers might be given...
good to see you here
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline cablebandit

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Re: god/the devil made me do it ...if not one, how come the other?
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2012, 09:37:49 PM »
this was the response I got...I hope the format is not an issue:

Originally Posted by Cablebandit
"hack view"? I don't understand how it is a hack view. Explain please. I think that he does a very good job of exposing some of Christianitys ridiculous (to me) tenets

RESPONSE:
it's because so many people are keyboard theologists these days and don't look at any historical context or any deeper meaning of something.

it's just the faux superior morality they they try to give themselves and paint every religious person as being a deluded retard is infuriating.

i think huge portions of religious people are idiots and don't really like being groups with them for that reason but i also thnk huge portions of people in general are idiots too.

the modern atheist movement are the co-kings of the "no true scotsman" fallacy,tied with christians in relation to muslims...

i like bill maher but a few weeks ago they had a similar discussion and the USSR was brought up.it was how the godless communists killed tens of millions of people,tens of million more in mao's china.his response was "i feel that was a religion as well,a secular religion" secular religion? it sounds like atheists just don't want to admit they have dicks on their team too and any human belief system that goes awry is a "religion".
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Offline kin hell

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Re: god/the devil made me do it ...if not one, how come the other?
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2012, 01:56:33 AM »
Thanks Cableb ....that was pretty quick  :)

I'm not a user of facebook or the like so I cannot comment to the norms there, but I do find it typically hilarious that the responder completely dodged the topic specific, preferring instead to post off topic, generic, focus-free and pretty much senseless opinion.

As a considered rebuttal to my point, it would make a good cuckoo clock, (if it was made out of wood, carved and fitted out with clock innards and a wooden bird), otherwise it was drivel that showed only that the responder failed to understand the original point.



« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 02:34:03 AM by kin hell »
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline Nam

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Re: god/the devil made me do it ...if not one, how come the other?
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2012, 02:29:14 AM »
I think, in general, people would rather have someone else, or something else be the fault of their own incompetence. However in saying that, the people who state such things, in my opinion, are not exactly sane people.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Grimm

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Re: god/the devil made me do it ...if not one, how come the other?
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2012, 06:29:12 AM »
this was the response I got...I hope the format is not an issue:

Originally Posted by Cablebandit
"hack view"? I don't understand how it is a hack view. Explain please. I think that he does a very good job of exposing some of Christianitys ridiculous (to me) tenets

RESPONSE:
it's because so many people are keyboard theologists these days and don't look at any historical context or any deeper meaning of something.

it's just the faux superior morality they they try to give themselves and paint every religious person as being a deluded retard is infuriating.

i think huge portions of religious people are idiots and don't really like being groups with them for that reason but i also thnk huge portions of people in general are idiots too.

the modern atheist movement are the co-kings of the "no true scotsman" fallacy,tied with christians in relation to muslims...

i like bill maher but a few weeks ago they had a similar discussion and the USSR was brought up.it was how the godless communists killed tens of millions of people,tens of million more in mao's china.his response was "i feel that was a religion as well,a secular religion" secular religion? it sounds like atheists just don't want to admit they have dicks on their team too and any human belief system that goes awry is a "religion".
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Cab -

... sigh.  You realize this entire thing is a strawman, right?  You posted the question about "god made me did it", and your respondent leaped to attacking atheists and atheism without addressing the basic issue.  In one fell swoop your commentor called all atheists "people who don't read or understand the bible, with a superiority complex who commit the same fallacies as everyone else" and he uses that as an excuse to not discuss the point.

(To add, Maher was more right than he's given credit for being - the "communist state" is where the state steps into the role of religion, becoming arbiter of good, right, and morality and expecting the same unquestioning fanatacism.  The best modern example is the DPKR - North Korea venerates Kim Jong Sun and treats Kim Jong Il and now the new guy as prophets of the original, great Leader.  Worshipping the Leader is the state religion there, even if they don't call it that.)

But, yeah.  This isn't an answer, it's just a polemic against atheists.
"But to us, there is but one god, plus or minus one."  - 1 Corinthians 8:6+/-2

-- Randall, XKCD http://xkcd.com/900/

Offline learnin

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Re: god/the devil made me do it ...if not one, how come the other?
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2012, 10:33:35 AM »
We have to keep the issues straight here, IMO.   The OP is talking about someone killing another and saying that:
"God told me to do it."

In the Oregon Sect case, we have people who withold medical treatment from children who have an illness.  There is a difference even though, in both situations, death or harm occurs.  In the latter case, the sect is not directly killing their children, they're simply allowing the disease process to follow it's natural course without medical intervention.  They are trusting in divine intervention.  Therefore, the law gets cloudy with religiious freedom, intent, etc. 

Sticking with the OP, the point is valid.  We don't allow any person to drown their children and invoke:  "God told me do it", or, "the devil made me do it."    We don't allow this argument even though, biblically,  it should be a valid argument.  Even the New Testament, clearly, states that we are battling with "principalities and powers".  The NT, clearly, states that we are born into a state of sin; we are born into a state whereby we are at odds with god;  reprobates.  Jesus stated that Satan is a liar and murderer from the beginning.  He told the Pharisees that they do the work of their father, Satan.    So, a Satanic defense ought to bear some weight for a jury composed of christians, no?

I agree with the OP.  Deep down most believers really do not believe.  I always present the case this way.  Present this scenario to any believer and lover of Jesus.    If science devloped a pill that would allow you to live, at least, for a thousand years, would you take it?   I guarantee you 99% would take it and their answer tells you how much they really want to be with Jesus.

Offline cablebandit

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Re: god/the devil made me do it ...if not one, how come the other?
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2012, 11:47:58 AM »
thanks for the feedback guys. Unfortunately my lack of education and low communication skills limits me in debates. You guys are very good at highlighting and exposing people when they evade the topic and try to evade answering legitimate questions. I hope to acquire some of those skills with more time here. I posted this topic on a car forum instead of Facebook as I had originally intended. I will copy/paste the conversation to here if you care to see it and if it isn't in violation of any of the forum rules. 


Offline cablebandit

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Re: god/the devil made me do it ...if not one, how come the other?
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2012, 12:54:37 PM »
would anyone like my name/pw to have some fun with them? I have another xian on the hook as well. I'd love to see one of you chopping down the tree of ridiculousness.

Offline cablebandit

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Re: god/the devil made me do it ...if not one, how come the other?
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2012, 09:09:51 AM »
nevermind....the guy actually finally was able to realize and admit that he "believes because it feels good".

Offline kin hell

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Re: god/the devil made me do it ...if not one, how come the other?
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2012, 09:26:27 AM »
nevermind....the guy actually finally was able to realize and admit that he "believes because it feels good".

that's quite an honest appraisal ....

as I said bloke, I personally don't do facebook etc,   
...but if you ever feel the urge to engage there but feel  a little undergunned invite the believers back to this forum where someone is always happy to serve.
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise