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Offline cowpar2

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Just some stuff....
« on: May 23, 2012, 08:13:59 PM »
If the entire universe was created from the big bang, and the big bang came fro the existence of matter, where did matter come from?
Another thing: how do we know the earth is billions of years old?
Oh, right, the layers: forgot. But...
How do we know how old they are?
Of course! The fossils! sorry I forgot!
But....
How do we know how old THEY are???
Was it carbon dating? Yeah, I think it was!
Alas, How do we have a clue how accurate that is?
In fact, live animals, and freshly-killed animals. were tested for age with carbon dating. and found to be hundreds, thousands, and sometimes MILLIONS of years old!
Not really sure how much we can depend on carbon dating....
I mean, it IS based on decaying substances:
which happens at random...
So, if you can clear this up for me, that'd be grand.
Tanx
WHAT??!!??  A DARWIN??!!??
How could this be...?

Offline Omen

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Re: Just some stuff....
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2012, 08:31:32 PM »
If the entire universe was created from the big bang,

The big bang isn't an isolated event in the past, it is also not an 'explosion'.  Technically speaking you're still in the big bang now.

Quote
and the big bang came fro the existence of matter

No, matter coalesced out of the cooling background energy as the universe expanded.   You have it backwards.

Quote
Another thing: how do we know the earth is billions of years old?
Oh, right, the layers: forgot. But...
How do we know how old they are?
Of course! The fossils! sorry I forgot!
But....

The geologic column is not dated by dating fossils, fossils are instead dated by the dating on the geologic column.  The age of earth is established through radio-isotopic dating.

Quote
How do we know how old THEY are???
Was it carbon dating? Yeah, I think it was!

You can't carbon date fossils.

Carbon has a half life of about 5,730 years, it is only used to date things that contain carbon and are less than 50,000 years old.

Radio-isotopic dating encompasses other isotopic dating beyond carbon.  Establishing accurate dating methods is done by comparing dating results against ages that are already known.  We can also compare individual radio-isotopic dating methods to test for consistency in dating.  Radioactive decay is a constant, if it were not than we would expect to find inconsistent dating results across the board.

Quote
Alas, How do we have a clue how accurate that is?
In fact, live animals, and freshly-killed animals. were tested for age with carbon dating. and found to be hundreds, thousands, and sometimes MILLIONS of years old!

1. It would be impossible for them to be hundreds of thousands or millions considering the effective range of carbon dating is 50-60,000 years.

2. No one carbon dates fossils.

3. Studies have established where carbon occurring in the environment can give non-congruent dating results.  That doesn't mean it is true in ALL environments.  However, considering 1 or 2, it's sort of pointless.

Quote
Not really sure how much we can depend on carbon dating....
I mean, it IS based on decaying substances:
which happens at random...
So, if you can clear this up for me, that'd be grand.
Tanx

Perhaps your first source shouldn't be creationist websites.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 08:35:47 PM by Omen »
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline cowpar2

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Re: Just some stuff....
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2012, 08:37:20 PM »
It was not.
Actually, I was asking a logical question, I just wanted to add a little extra "I'm a douche bag" -ness to it!
WHAT??!!??  A DARWIN??!!??
How could this be...?

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Just some stuff....
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2012, 08:47:49 PM »
If the entire universe was created from the big bang, and the big bang came fro the existence of matter, where did matter come from?
Another thing: how do we know the earth is billions of years old?
Oh, right, the layers: forgot. But...
How do we know how old they are?
Of course! The fossils! sorry I forgot!
But....
How do we know how old THEY are???
Was it carbon dating? Yeah, I think it was!
Alas, How do we have a clue how accurate that is?
In fact, live animals, and freshly-killed animals. were tested for age with carbon dating. and found to be hundreds, thousands, and sometimes MILLIONS of years old!
Not really sure how much we can depend on carbon dating....
I mean, it IS based on decaying substances:
which happens at random...
So, if you can clear this up for me, that'd be grand.
Tanx
I see the above as wilful ignorance. A bravura display of not thinking, never reading, never listening at school and understanding nothing.

Fortunately, these are just the qualifications that are required to be a Christian as, at your fingertips, you have all the answers, "God did it."

God produced the earth from nothing (Where did he get the matter from?)
made men out of mud and women out of a rib.
He also made polio, cancer, Parkinson's Disease, blindness, deafness, cripples, starvation and drought.
The earth was flat and the sky had holes in it where "The Fountains of the Deep" came through.
He flooded all the earth (even though we know the Egyptians didn't get wet.)
A burning bush developed vocal cords
A donkey spoke,
Bats are birds
Instead of ferries, people travelled in whales.
And Bronze Age tribesmen were able to walk into furnaces unharmed.

And, of course all this is completely believable, whereas decay rates of various isotopes are merely studied for years, tested and retested and eventually, we have a really good idea of the numbers involved.
It was not.
Actually, I was asking a logical question, I just wanted to add a little extra "I'm a douche bag" -ness to it!
(i) Why do I get the impression that this second post does not quite reflect reality?
(ii) Why do you want someone else to do the work for you?
(iii) Why don't you have the ability to use Google?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 08:51:39 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Just some stuff....
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2012, 09:00:24 PM »
Oops, you're not clear on much of anything. This will make it hard.

Big bang? It didn't start out as matter, but rather as energy. Now, if you want to know where the energy came from, you're out of luck. We haven't figured that part out yet. But don't worry, we're working on it. It may be that we could have already had the answer if we didn't have so many theists thinking there is nothing to look for and hence they missed out on being great scientists. That's just speculation, but I enjoy speculating.

Age of the earth? No, it's not just layers. The layers didn't start for a long time. We were too busy being molten for awhile, then too busy being smashed into by giant pieces of space debris for awhile, and making our moon via another giant collision for awhile, and it simply took more than a day to put the place into good enough shape to start making layers and such.

So we actually date meteorites that have fallen to earth. On the assumption that they were made at about the same time as the rest of the material in the solar system, it makes sense that the oldest rocks were formed at about the same time as earth, but elsewhere. So they didn't get melted over and over by the various forces that kept earth molten for so long. And if we measure said meteorites using various forms of radiometric dating, we keep getting dates of around 4.5 billions years ago, no matter what the oldest meteorites are made of. And we can't come up with any good reasons to think the planet is any younger.

The oldest rocks native to earth are dated at about 3.5 billion years old. Some are in layered formations, some are not. Not all rocks are layered. Specific geologic conditions are required for that to happen. If, as the creationists say, all layered rocks were formed during and shortly after the flood, one has to ask why there are so many rocks that aren't layered. A universal flood of that magnitude should end up with, oh, I don't know, universal layering? Makes sense to me.

Anyway, we can use radiometric dating (and there are a variety of things to date using the basic method. Lots of different isotopes that can be measured and whose decay can be extrapolated backwards. We keep getting similar dates, which we jump to conclusions about and assume mean that the oldest rocks are about that age. But we jump to those conclusions because we can't find any other conclusions to jump to. Forgive us.

There is layering, of course. Whose ages, sadly, match up very nicely with the ages found using radiometric methods. It is very awkward that the dates seem to agree with each other. Because it forces us to use science to explain our results, and that throws theists off something fierce. It would be nicer if we could just discover some nice old folk tales that did the same thing, but so far we haven't found any. All we've got are the freakin' rocks.

Notice that I haven't mentioned carbon dating. Don't consider this a personal affront. It's just that carbon dating only works on stuff that was a) alive and b)no more than 60,000 or so years old. So any claim that recently offed critters were measured using those methods and shown to be millions of years old means that whoever did it didn't know a darn thing about calibrating their instruments, let alone what the heck they were doing. But being misinformed tends to cause similar outcomes all the time.

Anyway, we don't have to depend on carbon dating. What we have are a whole bunch of different clues as to the age of the planet, and they have a bad habit of matching each other. We can look at chemical compostion, geologic layering, plate techtonics, atmospheric gases, the genetics and structure of ancient fossils, which have a real bad habit of being buried in successive layers that match the evolutionary progress of the various creatures. And we have modern genetics, which can predict the sources of the original genes and then look to see if the fossil and geologic and biologic records match, and darn it, they do. Se we are stuck, at least for now, with all this corroborating info that matches nicely.

Decaying doesn't happen at random, by the way. There are constants that, at least so far, have proven to be pretty darned "constant", if you get my drift. We can't think of any reason they would be otherwise. All evidence points to their reliability. If they aren't, we need to get busy right away rewriting our chemistry books.

If decay were random, isotope wise, I assume it would be random everywhere else, because obviously any god worth his salt (until it decayed) would deliberately toss in randomness everywhere. Some rocks would stay real hard and be good for bopping slow antelopes over the head, while others would get soft and mushy and we'd step in them and go ick. Random would suck. I like constants better. But we could take a vote.

And I noticed you forgot to ask about the million year old ice cores we have drilled out of the Greenland ice cap. I assume that was an oversight on your part. Now I know a million years isn't anything close to 4.5 billion, let along over 13 billion years, but it sure puts the kibosh on the silly 6,000 year old earth theory that some folks toss around like facts. Unless some dofus writing the bible left out the verse "In the beginning, god created a million years worth of ice in the Greenland ice cap just to fool the people he loves". Or maybe I just missed that verse.

I could have gone into more detail, but you didn't seem too well prepared for actual information, so I went easy. Thank me later.

But there will be a test on this material Monday morning. Come prepared.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline jeremy0

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Re: Just some stuff....
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2012, 01:25:44 AM »
cowpar:  In the above posts, any question related to what you may have that was postulated in your first post has been answered.  I hope to your god, that like other theists, you don't continue with the same questions, or questions that have already been answered.  I'm getting tired of seeing theists not read answers to what they state... .......
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Just some stuff....
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2012, 05:50:02 AM »
It was not.
Actually, I was asking a logical question, I just wanted to add a little extra "I'm a douche bag" -ness to it!

Stating that your question is logical does not make it so.

Also, cut out the douchiness
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Just some stuff....
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2012, 09:32:49 AM »
It was not.
Actually, I was asking a logical question,

Actually, you weren't.  You were asking a rhetorical question that you thought you already had the answer for.  Has Omen's explanation helped or changed your mind in any way?

I just wanted to add a little extra "I'm a douche bag" -ness to it!

Well, high five yourself for mission accomplished.  You have acheived an above average level of douchebag.

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Offline caveat_imperator

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Re: Just some stuff....
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2012, 11:51:47 AM »
Actually, I was asking a logical question,

Well what do you know, you failed! :D

I just wanted to add a little extra "I'm a douche bag" -ness to it!

Well what do you know, you succeeded! :D
"In the end theologians are jealous of science, for they are aware that it has greater authority than do their own ways of finding “truth”: dogma, authority, and revelation. Science does find truth, faith does not. " - Jerry Coyne

Offline Poseidon

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Re: Just some stuff....
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2012, 11:09:33 PM »
Cow; If you were asking those questions sincerely, you have gotten some brief and sufficiently accurate answers. Several of us are well equipped to go into intricate detail if need be. We will be happy to help you with your formal education if, and only if, you are for real.

On the other hand if you are putting up posts, like your OP, in a misguided effort to intimidate us, then I  hope that you will quickly realize that you are waaay out of your league.  That is analogous to going bear hunting with a switch.  Do not take these remarks as a personal affront, it is merely stating the obvious.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Just some stuff....
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2012, 09:07:38 AM »
It was not.
Actually, I was asking a logical question, I just wanted to add a little extra "I'm a douche bag" -ness to it!
Actually, you failed in both of these.  Your question was not logical - it only had a generic form of logic, which does not mean it's actually logical - and you didn't even succeed in being irritating.  Just in showing off your ignorance.

Offline Dynamic

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Re: Just some stuff....
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2012, 02:17:41 PM »
Once again a person has the biased creationist view on Science.
Who ever the hell taught you science really needs to get their certificate taken away.

This video is my view on your post.

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5hfYJsQAhl0
« Last Edit: May 27, 2012, 02:20:07 PM by Dynamic »
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

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Offline Grogs

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Re: Just some stuff....
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2012, 07:14:37 AM »
In fact, live animals, and freshly-killed animals. were tested for age with carbon dating. and found to be hundreds, thousands, and sometimes MILLIONS of years old!

This is a pretty common bit of creationist dishonesty. All reputable radiometric testing laboratories will post a minimum and maximum age to which a sample can be dated using a particular method. That range of dates depends on the half-life of the parent isotope. Enough time (at least a few% of a half-life) mush have passed so that there will be enough of the daughter isotope to detect. At the other extreme, if more than about 7 half-lives have passed there will be too little of the parent isotope remaining.

The scam involves digging up something like a volcanic rock from the Mount St. Helens explosion in 1980 and sending it in for K-Ar dating or something similar. K-40 has a half-life of 1.25 billion years, so there will be practically none of the daughter product (Ar-40) in the rock. At this point, the lab probably notices this and calls the sender to inform them that they've sent a bad sample that they can't date properly. The creationist then has them date it anyway. The result is that the sample comes back with a date like 6 million +/- 20 million years which is, as any decent scientist or statistician will tell you, statistically equivalent to zero. The creationist on the other hand will ignore the +/- and publish the results under some incendiary headline like The Fraud of Radiometric Dating: Mount St. Helens Rock Dated to 6 Million Years by Prominent Lab

Offline cowpar2

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Re: Just some stuff....
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2012, 12:10:34 PM »
You guys do know that I'm just doing crap like this to get recognition, right?
Because every second you spend looking at my posts, is another second the infamous name Cowpar2 is engraved into your mind.
You see, I was sent here to crush, kill, destroy, and most importantly: Swag.
I am the cause of all that which isn't, which is why the universe is.
The universe already makes sense, I'm here to un-sense it.
The universe has order, I'm here to bring Chaos!
Because, of course, The natural universe needs "Equilibrium" After all!
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 12:59:42 PM by cowpar2 »
WHAT??!!??  A DARWIN??!!??
How could this be...?

Offline eye over you

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Re: Just some stuff....
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2012, 12:32:53 PM »
You guys do know that I'm just doing crap like this to get recognition, right?
Because every second you spend looking at my posts, is another second the infamous name Cowpar2 is engraved into your mind.

    You are getting recognition and your name is getting engraved in minds alright, but not how you would probably like.
Don't let your mouth write checks that your ass can't cash.

Offline cowpar2

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Re: Just some stuff....
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2012, 12:57:06 PM »
HAHAHAAA!!
You have no clue, do you?
"but not how you would probably like."
Unless you are absolutely LOVING my posts,
It is how I like, Duh.
You do know who alice cooper is, right?
He Performed what is known as shock rock.
Anything that directs people's attention towards you is beneficial.
It's hard to be right, But it's OH SO EASY to be wrong!!
So, easy recognition is be as wrong as possible, as rude, as dumb, as argumentative, aggravating, frustrating, and troll-ish as possible.
WHAT??!!??  A DARWIN??!!??
How could this be...?

Offline screwtape

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Re: Just some stuff....
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2012, 01:02:24 PM »
HAHAHAAA!!
You have no clue, do you?
"but not how you would probably like."
Unless you are absolutely LOVING my posts,
It is how I like, Duh.
You do know who alice cooper is, right?
He Performed what is known as shock rock.
Anything that directs people's attention towards you is beneficial.
It's hard to be right, But it's OH SO EASY to be wrong!!
So, easy recognition is be as wrong as possible, as rude, as dumb, as argumentative, aggravating, frustrating, and troll-ish as possible.

Congratulations.  You are now on post approval.  Enjoy.
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Offline voodoo child

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Re: Just some stuff....
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2012, 01:28:12 PM »
So, easy recognition is be as wrong as possible, as rude, as dumb, as argumentative, aggravating, frustrating, and troll-ish as possible.


What are your plans for the future cowpar, how do you see yourself in, let’s say, 30 years?
The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

Offline screwtape

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Re: Just some stuff....
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2012, 02:53:31 PM »
What are your plans for the future cowpar, how do you see yourself in, let’s say, 30 years?

still on full moderation, I predict.
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