should peadohpiles be allowed to live ?

[Timo]

If that is so obvious, then why isn't that logic applied to other illegal activities like say, celebrity sex tapes.

[HAL]

If that is so obvious, then why isn't that logic applied to other illegal activities like say, celebrity sex tapes.

Because the obvious isn't always done in this world.

[Timo]

Ha.  I was scratching my head for a second but then I reread your post.  It's funny how tone is sometimes hard to convey via text.

[Traveler]

...I think our current penal system does very little to prevent crime. I think education, counseling, and community service would be a better solution for all but the very worst violent offenders. Not only could it teach many of these people valuable job skills and improve their sense of self-worth (which would prevent recidivism) but it would also save billions (yeah, with a b) on housing and feeding them. Not to mention their return to the work force would further contribute to the tax base.

Surprise! I actually agree with you.

In this thread we're talking about many related, but different things. The illegality of a thing is not, in theory, directly tied to the treatment of the perpetrator. Of course it is in practice. But when I say that an activity does harm, or has the potential to do harm, I'm not necessarily making a statement about whether the current punishment for doing such harm is appropriate or helpful. Perhaps that's a part of where this conversation gets cloudy. I believe I can summarize as follows ... Most of us are talking about the children. You're talking from the viewpoint of potential harm to you, that you think is disproportionate to your activity.

[Gnu Ordure]

Putting it like that, I might be tempted to agree with you. But the crucial problem is that it isn't possible to guarantee that hypothetical situation. There is no agreed test of emotional maturity; no way to guarantee informed consent; and no guarantee that the girl will not be harmed.

I already said that.

Good, so we're agreed on that crucial point.

So your dream scenario cannot occur in real life, Joe. Ii's a fantasy, and should remain so. Rational paedophiles understand this and refrain from acting on their desires.

I made it pretty clear that it was a very rare case that I would consider it ok.

And that again is typical paedophile thinking. They say to themselves that sometimes it's OK for a 30-year-old to have sex with an 11-year-old, even though it's rare. And in their minds, that's all they need to convince themselves that their 11-year-old is that rare child, and that their true love is special. And that's what they tell their psychiatrists when they're caught.

After all, Joe, in your scenario of reducing the age of consent to the onset of puberty, who is actually going to make the judgment call that the 11-year-old is suffficiently emotionally mature? Why, the paedophile, of course. Who is rather biased as a judge, don't you think?

That's why you want the Age of Consent reduced to the onset of puberty; then the final barrier to realizing the fantasy would be removed.

Ain't gonna happen, Joe.

Ain't gonna happen, in America you mean. Not all of us live in America. (And even in America, there is a state where the age of consent is currently 14.) Don't assume your opinions are universally held.

A lot of people agree with me; no-one agrees with you. That's because you're a paedophile, and we're not.
 

Your friend took the risk of looking at child porn and ruined his life. People do stupid things.

Looking at child porn did not ruin his life. Unjust thought crime ruined his life.

Possession of child pornography isn't a thought-crime. It's an objectively verifiable crime.

(Though I  agree with you that possession shouldn't be punished severely. The important thing is that the child-pornography should be confiscated and given to the police as evidence of a crime. I'd be happy if the possessors were punished with a fine). 

Should I also assume that you would be removing your hypothetical wife from the presence of other men? You didn't answer that question.

Do you really not understand the difference?

1. I am talking about removing my daughter only from your presence, based on your admission of paedophilia and other statements on this thread.

2. I do not control my hypothetical wife's movements as I do my child's. She's a free agent, so I don't 'remove' her from situations. Also she's a karate black-belt and always carries a gun, so I'm not too concerned about her safety.

You are claiming that sexual attraction leads to rape, right?

Wrong. And by trying to use such a blatant strawman, you're really grasping at straws.

Give it up, Joe. Your fantasy isn't going to become reality. The Age of Consent isn't going to be reduced to puberty. Your dream has to stay a dream. All your arguments on a forum like this aren't going to change a thing.

If you don't accept that, I recommend you get professional help, else you may end up in prison like your friend.

[MadBunny]

A lot of people agree with me; no-one agrees with you. That's because you're a paedophile, and we're not.

Actually[1] a lot of the world agrees with Joe on this one, if you look up 'age of consent' around the world you'll see that it's pretty low, occasionally non-existent in many places.  It's one of the reasons where there is such a problem with 'sex tourism', a related topic.

1.	somewhat sadly in my opinion

[Gnu Ordure]

if you look up 'age of consent' around the world you'll see that it's pretty low, occasionally non-existent in many places.

Nonsense, Madbunny. Worldwide, the AoC is mostly in the range of 14 to 18.

Wiki splits up the countries by continent, but I found this list which is incomplete, but appears to be accurate as far as it goes. As I said, mostly 14-18.

And the AoC is non-existent in some countries such as Afghanistan because all sex outside of marriage is illegal. So practically, the AoC is equivalent to the marriageable age, which in Afghanistan is 18 for males, 16 for females.

[MadBunny]

I use this list:
http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm

Which looks to be a bit more detailed, and has the variations of FF/MM on it, the average appears to be between 12-16, with 18, or 5yrs age difference being reasonably frequent.  If you click on the country of note it takes you to the legal text of that particular issue.

So yes, you're right, but not by much.

I don't know about you, but I consider 12-16[1] to be pretty low. There are a few that it seems 'non-existent'.  That's barely out of grade school, or not yet in high school in the US.

random google pix of a ninth grade field trip. <----- they look pretty damn young to my eyes.  I'm sure I could find more 'mature' looking 9th graders but I'm not inclined.

1.	or even 14-16

[screwtape]

t I found this list which is incomplete, but appears to be accurate as far as it goes. As I said, mostly 14-18.

I would not put too much confidence in that list.  It says the age of consent in India is 18.  Legally, perhaps.  But that is not common practice.  Perhaps by consent they mean "the age at which a female may make some decisions without her parents".  But even that is iffy in Indian culture.

[Chronos]

random google pix of a ninth grade field trip. <----- they look pretty damn young to my eyes.  I'm sure I could find more 'mature' looking 9th graders but I'm not inclined.

Kansas, 1977?

[Gnu Ordure]

Madbunny, you've misunderstood me. I said to Joe:

That's why you want the Age of Consent reduced to the onset of puberty; then the final barrier to realizing the fantasy would be removed.

Ain't gonna happen, Joe.

Ain't gonna happen, in America you mean. Not all of us live in America. (And even in America, there is a state where the age of consent is currently 14.) Don't assume your opinions are universally held.

A lot of people agree with me; no-one agrees with you. That's because you're a paedophile, and we're not.

I meant that a lot of people agree with me that the Age of Consent in the US isn't going to be reduced to the onset of puberty anytime soon.

[joebbowers]

Then you should have clarified that no-one in America agrees with me. I mean, you'd still be wrong, but you'd be less blatantly wrong.

[Gnu Ordure]

^^^

Typical paedophile lawyering and pedantry.

Answer my post, Joe.

[joebbowers]

They say to themselves that sometimes it's OK for a 30-year-old to have sex with an 11-year-old, even though it's rare.

I welcome to to submit your proof that it was harmful in 100% of cases.

A lot of people agree with me; no-one agrees with you. That's because you're a paedophile, and we're not.

Oh? No-one agrees with me? Well then I change my mind and officially agree with whatever you're saying.

Appeal to popularity? Really? Doesn't work when Christians use it, doesn't work on me either.
 

Possession of child pornography isn't a thought-crime. It's an objectively verifiable crime.

I disagree. The fact that pornographic drawings and stories which involve no real children are also illegal demonstrates that it is not about protecting children, but punishing impure thoughts.

1. I am talking about removing my daughter only from your presence, based on your admission of paedophilia and other statements on this thread.

Would you keep other teenage boys away from your daughter?

2. I do not control my hypothetical wife's movements as I do my child's. She's a free agent, so I don't 'remove' her from situations. Also she's a karate black-belt and always carries a gun, so I'm not too concerned about her safety.

A ridiculous moving goalpost. If you're going to play that game, I can just say that your wife is leaving you for me because she likes my pretty eyes and says you spend too much time on the internet.

Give it up, Joe. Your fantasy isn't going to become reality. The Age of Consent isn't going to be reduced to puberty. Your dream has to stay a dream.

My argument is about legalizing the possession of child pornography, not lowering the age of consent. I was asked my opinion, and I gave it. I do not care if the age of consent law is changed. I will yet again point out that I do not live in America. Your age of consent laws do not concern me.

All your arguments on a forum like this aren't going to change a thing.

First, I disagree with that. This is not the only forum I post on, and if I can open a few eyes to the injustice of our current overly-harsh punishments for possession of child pornography, I don't feel my time has been wasted.

Second, with or without my effort, things are changing. Federal judges are clamoring for reduced penalties and breaking official sentencing guidelines and refusing to issue severe punishments for simple possession cases. Studies are being conducted and publishing findings in favor of legalization. The ACLU is defending those caught in possession and supports decriminalization.

If you don't accept that, I recommend you get professional help, else you may end up in prison like your friend.

I'm sorry. I can't accept or tolerate thought crime.

Edit: What professional help would you suggest I get? Perhaps attending a religious camp where they try to pray away my abnormal sexual feelings? I've heard those are all the rage these days.

Sexual orientations can't be cured. The solution is to learn to tolerate things that make you uncomfortable.

[MadBunny]

Madbunny, you've misunderstood..

I meant that a lot of people agree with me that the Age of Consent in the US isn't going to be reduced to the onset of puberty anytime soon.

My apologies.

You're right it won't happen here anytime soon.  Though, I'm still somewhat shocked that in the US 14 is considered acceptable.  I suspect it's one of those 'within XX number of years' things, so if a 34 year old guy was sexing up a 15 year old he's still get charged with statutory rape.  If a 16 year old was doing it, then it would be either a wink and a nod, or some kind of child oriented punishment.  Then again, I'm at an age where 18 year olds look like children to me so.... I may be rather biased on the subject.

Other parts of the world... not so much.  You could probably catch a plane to Thailand (15), or uh Spain (13!)...  and grab a 15 year old without much hassle.[1]

1.	Note: sex tourism is illegal, in theory.

[jaimehlers]

Arguing that it should be legal to own pornographic materials involving children, but that the distribution and creation of such materials should be illegal, is roughly comparable to banning the slave trade but permitting the ownership of slaves.  Especially when you consider the lack of power that most children have compared to adults.  All that does is create a strong incentive to bypass the law in order to gain ownership of such materials.

[Atheistisaweirdword]

If that is so obvious, then why isn't that logic applied to other illegal activities like say, celebrity sex tapes.

Pedophiles and celebrity sex tapes are 2 different things.
Often child pedophiles have tumors, orbitofrontal cortex tumor's have led to a man's sexual preference to turn to children, it's obviously not a natural thing that natural selection has given a man's brain the preference of a child, it's sickness. They can't literally be a mentally healthy person and like kids.

[Atheistisaweirdword]

They say to themselves that sometimes it's OK for a 30-year-old to have sex with an 11-year-old, even though it's rare.

I welcome to to submit your proof that it was harmful in 100% of cases.

A lot of people agree with me; no-one agrees with you. That's because you're a paedophile, and we're not.

Oh? No-one agrees with me? Well then I change my mind and officially agree with whatever you're saying.

Appeal to popularity? Really? Doesn't work when Christians use it, doesn't work on me either.
 

Possession of child pornography isn't a thought-crime. It's an objectively verifiable crime.

I disagree. The fact that pornographic drawings and stories which involve no real children are also illegal demonstrates that it is not about protecting children, but punishing impure thoughts.

1. I am talking about removing my daughter only from your presence, based on your admission of paedophilia and other statements on this thread.

Would you keep other teenage boys away from your daughter?

2. I do not control my hypothetical wife's movements as I do my child's. She's a free agent, so I don't 'remove' her from situations. Also she's a karate black-belt and always carries a gun, so I'm not too concerned about her safety.

A ridiculous moving goalpost. If you're going to play that game, I can just say that your wife is leaving you for me because she likes my pretty eyes and says you spend too much time on the internet.

Give it up, Joe. Your fantasy isn't going to become reality. The Age of Consent isn't going to be reduced to puberty. Your dream has to stay a dream.

My argument is about legalizing the possession of child pornography, not lowering the age of consent. I was asked my opinion, and I gave it. I do not care if the age of consent law is changed. I will yet again point out that I do not live in America. Your age of consent laws do not concern me.

All your arguments on a forum like this aren't going to change a thing.

First, I disagree with that. This is not the only forum I post on, and if I can open a few eyes to the injustice of our current overly-harsh punishments for possession of child pornography, I don't feel my time has been wasted.

Second, with or without my effort, things are changing. Federal judges are clamoring for reduced penalties and breaking official sentencing guidelines and refusing to issue severe punishments for simple possession cases. Studies are being conducted and publishing findings in favor of legalization. The ACLU is defending those caught in possession and supports decriminalization.

If you don't accept that, I recommend you get professional help, else you may end up in prison like your friend.

I'm sorry. I can't accept or tolerate thought crime.

Edit: What professional help would you suggest I get? Perhaps attending a religious camp where they try to pray away my abnormal sexual feelings? I've heard those are all the rage these days.

Sexual orientations can't be cured. The solution is to learn to tolerate things that make you uncomfortable.

I'm not going to agree with you, but puberty is when a girl can have sex, they will probably being having sex with guys THEIR age, most do. Older men taking advantage of a younger not developed mind is just wrong, but I get the teenage point. Thoughtcrime, 1984 much? I hope that guy really doesn't think it's okay and feels so paranoid that his daughter has to carry a gun and have a black belt. Is she going to get in a kung fu battle and then a gun fight? 18 is a good age, they're old enough to make their decisions, out of high school and smart enough and capable enough to think for themselves, if you really actually like child porn you have a problem, that's not a regular fetish, I think liking getting shit on would be more rational than liking children. Liking children is not rational or logical and your point of view is saying puberty? That's not logical, they're not smart enough and not old enough to make decisions for themselves. Child pornagraphy is sick, no rational or logical mind will ever agree with you that it would be legal. It would not be legal in any developed country, if it ever does get legal in your country than you live in a fucked up country.

[One Above All]

It would not be legal in any developed country, if it ever does get legal in your country than you live in a fucked up country.

Watch your mouth, youngster. As someone who lives in a country where possession of child pornography is legal (according to joebbowers's chart), I can tell you that my country is not fucked up in any way. My country has one of the lowest crime rates on the planet, and is ranked #16 on the Global Peace Index; much higher than your country.
In case my subtle point wasn't clear, read up on Poisoning the well^Wiki.

[Traveler]

....puberty is when a girl can have sex, they will probably being having sex with guys THEIR age, most do...

I completely disagree with you. Most girls at puberty still think sex is icky. Remember that the average age of puberty in girls is 12ish. We're talking about elementary school kids.

[Atheistisaweirdword]

It would not be legal in any developed country, if it ever does get legal in your country than you live in a fucked up country.

Watch your mouth, youngster. As someone who lives in a country where possession of child pornography is legal (according to joebbowers's chart), I can tell you that my country is not fucked up in any way. My country has one of the lowest crime rates on the planet, and is ranked #16 on the Global Peace Index; much higher than your country.
In case my subtle point wasn't clear, read up on Poisoning the well^Wiki.

I don't get the point on the wikipedia page, just states its a logical fallacy, doesn't state what it's about, I click the link and says error, please explain it. I didn't mean to offend you, was just saying child porn is wrong in the sense that they're not really old enough to make their own logical decisions in my point of view. For americans that's when you graduate high school. But again I didn't mean to offend you and I understand patrioticism most people are chauvinistic about their country, I think it's detrimental to think that way, we should be thinking about us as a human race as one, not of which country has a better country or crime rate in their country. Don't take offense.

[Atheistisaweirdword]

Meant to say they're 18 when they graduate high school, not sure what your country's graduation age is, but I still think thats the only age that makes sense.

[One Above All]

I don't get the point on the wikipedia page, just states its a logical fallacy, doesn't state what it's about, I click the link and says error, please explain it.

Basically it's when you say "If you don't think I'm right, you're a/an ______" (the blank space is placeholder for any negative quality; most commonly low intelligence or dishonesty). You're already classifying your position as the right one (shows close-mindedness) and dismissing anyone who disagrees as being an idiot/lying/whatever (shows idiocy).

I didn't mean to offend you, was just saying child porn is wrong in the sense that they're not really old enough to make their own logical decisions in my point of view. For americans that's when you graduate high school.

Trust me; most 12 year olds[1] are smarter than you think. In some areas. They're also complete idiots in others, just like everyone else.

But again I didn't mean to offend you and I understand patrioticism most people are chauvinistic about their country, I think it's detrimental to think that way, we should be thinking about us as a human race as one, not of which country has a better country or crime rate in their country. Don't take offense.

You're the one who brought it up. I simply used your logic and turned it inside out.

Meant to say they're 18 when they graduate high school, not sure what your country's graduation age is, but I still think thats the only age that makes sense.

Why?

1.	Per Traveler's post.

[Atheistisaweirdword]

I don't get the point on the wikipedia page, just states its a logical fallacy, doesn't state what it's about, I click the link and says error, please explain it.

Basically it's when you say "If you don't think I'm right, you're a/an ______" (the blank space is placeholder for any negative quality; most commonly low intelligence or dishonesty). You're already classifying your position as the right one (shows close-mindedness) and dismissing anyone who disagrees as being an idiot/lying/whatever (shows idiocy).

I didn't mean to offend you, was just saying child porn is wrong in the sense that they're not really old enough to make their own logical decisions in my point of view. For americans that's when you graduate high school.

Trust me; most 12 year olds[1] are smarter than you think. In some areas. They're also complete idiots in others, just like everyone else.

But again I didn't mean to offend you and I understand patrioticism most people are chauvinistic about their country, I think it's detrimental to think that way, we should be thinking about us as a human race as one, not of which country has a better country or crime rate in their country. Don't take offense.

You're the one who brought it up. I simply used your logic and turned it inside out.

Meant to say they're 18 when they graduate high school, not sure what your country's graduation age is, but I still think thats the only age that makes sense.

Why?

1.	Per Traveler's post.

I wasn't trying to call you an idiot, I thought you were using a term that I didn't know. I didn't know it just meant logical fallacy. Also, it is definitely and was wrong of my to say your country was fucked up, I admit that fully, it was never right of me to say your country is fucked up for YOUR point of view, your fucked up, not your country, so for that I apologize fully.
Okay if your point is actually thinking 12 year olds are smart enough and well developed enough to do porn then you're not that logical of a person, you're saying a 12 year old is smart enough to fuck older men? That's sick, literally. In every sense. A 12 year olds mind is not logical nor is she old enough to have sex with older men. That's disguisting. Call me an idiot and insult my intelligence but I'm not trying to actually make a point saying '12 year olds are well developed and smart enough to do porn'.
Say what you will, your point has been made as mine has too.

[One Above All]

Okay if your point is actually thinking 12 year olds are smart enough and well developed enough to do porn then you're not that logical of a person, you're saying a 12 year old is smart enough to fuck older men? That's sick, literally. In every sense. A 12 year olds mind is not logical nor is she old enough to have sex with older men. That's disguisting.

Not all of them; no. Just some. Maybe most.
And I am quite logical, thank you. More so than you, and I'd bet my life on that. Need I remind you of the fallacy known as "poisoning the well" again?

Say what you will, your point has been made as mine has too.

True. My point has been made. It was made in another thread, though; one I no longer have the patience or time to reply to. In fact, I shouldn't even be replying to this one right now. I'm gonna take a break for a couple of hours. See you later.

[Atheistisaweirdword]

Okay if your point is actually thinking 12 year olds are smart enough and well developed enough to do porn then you're not that logical of a person, you're saying a 12 year old is smart enough to fuck older men? That's sick, literally. In every sense. A 12 year olds mind is not logical nor is she old enough to have sex with older men. That's disguisting.

Not all of them; no. Just some. Maybe most.
And I am quite logical, thank you. More so than you, and I'd bet my life on that. Need I remind you of the fallacy known as "poisoning the well" again?

Say what you will, your point has been made as mine has too.

True. My point has been made. It was made in another thread, though; one I no longer have the patience or time to reply to. In fact, I shouldn't even be replying to this one right now. I'm gonna take a break for a couple of hours. See you later.

Not even a small fraction of 12 year olds would ever be considerable to porn. NOT ONE. You're smarter than me and think some 12 year olds can do porn. Good point. You probably are smarter than me in some areas, I'm sure. Your still just a human being on the planet as is everyone else, so if that's what you strive for is to smarter than some humans than good goal, helping humanity with your intelligence and your child porn views, kudos.

[One Above All]

Not even a small fraction of 12 year olds would ever be considerable to porn. NOT ONE.

While I agree with your conclusion, I'm having a hard time getting through that thick shell of emotion. Try logic for once. You (and others like you, who are arguing from emotion) make me ashamed to be on your side. You're like that one atheist who thinks atheism is about "rebelling against god".

You're smarter than me

Just to emphasize that this is your claim; not mine.

and think some 12 year olds can do porn.

"Can" in the sense that they can consent to it and be fully aware of what they're doing. Not "can" in the sense that they should. They might (and some would) regret it later in life, but we all make decisions we regret. It's just another part of growing up.

[rickymooston]

.
Okay if your point is actually thinking 12 year olds are smart enough and well developed enough to do porn then you're not that logical of a person, you're saying a 12 year old is smart enough to fuck older men?

Please do not think by any stretch of the imagination, that i justify child porn. Below, i am addressing the low quality of your argumentation.

Have you considered looking up logic in the dictiinary? The rules of logic do not include observations about
the biological and mental maturity of human beings

And, your post ignores the fact that in historic times, it was historically considered acceptable for 12 year olds to have sex.

The idea of an extended childhood is apparently very modern. It is no accident that people can conceive at puberty. Most likely, throughout most of humanity's existence they did so.

That's sick, literally. In every sense. A 12 year olds mind is not logical nor is she old enough to have sex with older men. That's disguisting.

In our cultural framework, you are right. I do not think however that justifying our reaction to it is as trivial as you make out.

Certainly, rape is sick. We can easiliy justify this.

However, can we so easily make an informed blanket statement about the maturity of 12 year olds and then simply cite "logic".

You could try to cite your EXperience. That is fair. It is not logic but your personal observation. Problem is,
Is it "sick"if somebody else has a different sense there?

Call me an idiot and insult my intelligence but I'm not trying to actually make a point saying '12 year olds are well developed and smart enough to do porn'.
Say what you will, your point has been made as mine has too.

Ok.

[rickymooston]

I completely disagree with you. Most girls at puberty still think sex is icky. Remember that the average age of puberty in girls is 12ish. We're talking about elementary school kids.

18 is the age at which i am fully comfortable with people having sex.

Still, can you say you are being objective here? That you are not projecting? There is quite a lot of variation
between people.
It is natural for us to want to protect chikdren from harm of course. They do experiment sexually in different ways at ages we are uncomfortable with sometimes.

In eras past, kids grew up at far younger ages. The idea of an extended childhood, is spparently rather modern. Samual de Champlain married a 12 year old. This was not contraversial when it hapoened. She came to Canada, hated it and went back to France