Author Topic: "The Woo is Strong in This One"  (Read 1874 times)

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Offline EV

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"The Woo is Strong in This One"
« on: May 20, 2012, 02:47:51 PM »
An amusing Facebook conversation. Original status by a friend in America (fundy Christian)
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"If I hear someone say that God committed genocide one more time, I'm gonna lose it! You don't even believe He exists so what's your problem!?"

I calmly pointed out this link: http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/godkills.htm and the definition of Genocide as the deliberate killing of a large group of people... The Christians started rolling in in droves to try and disprove me.

Cue wall of text from his friend.......  &)

It's actually pretty funny. I want one as a pet.

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I guess God was a real meany too when He invented gravity - look at all the people who are killed by that! LOL

When those who say they don't believe in God stand before Him, they will be shocked at how merciful and loving God really is, and was to them in their earthly life. When they see what an offense they have perpetrated on the One who was blindfolded and took punches to His face for them, had His flesh torn off His body for them, His hands and feet pierced for them, paid in full the free gift of everlasting life for them, then the horror of their fateful decision will fall upon them. It will lay upon them as an unbearable weight. The regret and sorrow of having missed the greatest opportunity in all the Universe and beyond will pierce their heart like a spear. The chains of Jacob Marley will seem insignificant compared to the chains of guilt and shame they will experience on that day. The despair and extreme grief which will be experienced at that moment, having slighted the Holy One all their lives, will so consume them, that they will weep convulsively and gnash their teeth at the missed opportunity.

O, what a horrible day! What a fateful day! What a permanent day! Fixed forever in Eternity, no going back, no making amends. The die is cast, the decision is made, Outer Darkness and Judgement awaits. And to realize that the God you said did not exist, the God who you thought all your life was so mean , unfair and judgmental, is the only fair being in all the Universe. The love and mercy and majesty of His person will so overwhelm you - and then that same thing will horrify you as you realize that you, and you alone, are responsible for rejecting the offer of living with Him and His loveliness forever. Instead, you will remember for Eternity, the tragic mistake you have made, and how you will suffer forever, not knowing of the love and grace that God wished to bestow upon you.

There is no reason, no excuse, not to love Him. He gave His life willingly for you. He came to earth, stripping Himself of all His majesty and glory, just to rescue you from yourself. He loves you so much, that He was willing to die a horrible death for you, and, suffer the eternal consequences of Hell itself for you, as His Father placed upon Him all the sins of the world for that three hours of darkness. How can you refuse such a person! How can you refuse such an offer!

Please, do not waste your life! Take heed to what God says in His word - how precious your soul really is, and how many will squander that wealth:

"Those who trust in their wealth And boast in the multitude of their riches, None of them can by any means redeem his brother, Nor give to God a ransom for him--For the redemption of their souls is costly, And it shall cease forever--That he should continue to live eternally, And not see the Pit. For he sees wise men die; Likewise the fool and the senseless person perish, And leave their wealth to others. Their inner thought is that their houses will last forever, Their dwelling places to all generations; They call their lands after their own names. Nevertheless man, though in honor, does not remain; He is like the beasts that perish. This is the way of those who are foolish, And of their posterity who approve their sayings. Like sheep they are laid in the grave; Death shall feed on them; The upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; And their beauty shall be consumed in the grave, far from their dwelling. But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave, For He shall receive me."
(Psalm 49:6-15)

I went for a pleasantly snarky reply:
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Lol, **** thanks for the offer but I'm alright. It's just as persuasive as if I'd been talked to by a Muslim or a Jew, both religions have the same level of truth in their holy books and the stories are just as accurate. Problem is they all claim different divinities so I'm gonna stick with hoping Science will cure my eye condition rather than praying that it will. I cannot, and indeed will never have faith in a being that so perfectly designed the world, who gave me a desire to write music, and then eyes that are incapable of reading it. Isn't that just fantastic and part of the 'plan'? I guess you could say I am angry not at God, but at the people who keep telling me that He loves me.

After all, if it is part of God's plan, then I'm supposed to be an atheist and that's kewl with G, J and the HG.

There will be a prize of a BBQ-Baby to the best one-liner about this guy.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 02:50:29 PM by EV »
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"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."
- Philosopher John Stuart Mill, from a Parliamentary debate (May 31, 1866);

Offline Poseidon

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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2012, 03:23:20 PM »
That first wall of text carries on....and on... about the cruel, flesh rending punishment that JC endured in order to salvage my deficient soul.

I'll match that and raise the stakes many times over. There have been countless thousands of American soldiers and sailors who endured the worst imaginable physical pain and death just to save my poor ass from some tyranical force of arms. I give them more credit and gratitude than to any 2000 year ago mythical hero. 

My people were verifiably real and they are verifiably dead.  Their guy may or may not have been real and he is not verifiably dead. I will close with three words that the xtians like to use while denying certain scientific evidence.  Your JC persons actual existence cannot be proven except by virtue of ancient folk tales, so his existence is "only a theory"   

Offline Nick

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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2012, 03:32:55 PM »
Thor still has a bigger hammer. ;)
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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2012, 03:34:20 PM »
What about Prometheus? The dude gets his liver ripped out every day and it's gonna last forever. Jesus had one bad weekend.
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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2012, 04:09:03 PM »
What about Prometheus? The dude gets his liver ripped out every day and it's gonna last forever. Jesus had one bad weekend.

Yea, his chocolate bunny melted...

If it really happened, the dude set up the whole thing. He planned thousands of years in advance for his kid to get snuffed and he thinks we're going to be impressed. Well, he knows we won't because he knows everything so it is obvious he is keeping a bunch of us clueless about his existence for a reason.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I think I'm a piss poor example of an example, if thats what he is trying to do with me.

But at least I don't have to go spend a frickin' eternity with Pat Robertson, let alone kiss their gods butt for an equally long periiod of time.

All I can really say is that I'm glad my world isn't so tiny that the wall of text in the OP makes sense. I'd hate it if that happened.
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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2012, 05:05:24 PM »
Thor still has a bigger hammer. ;)

Speaking of Norse gods, and of who did what, I love this ...  ;D

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Offline stuffin

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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2012, 08:06:49 PM »


Quote
I guess God was a real meany too when He invented gravity -



I don't recall the bible specifically saying god invented gravity. Now that I think about it, gravity didn't exist till Newton created/invented it.
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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2012, 08:26:59 PM »
[16] And the priest shall burn them upon the altar: it is the food of the offering made by fire for a sweet savour: all the fat is the LORD's.

Ask them if God runs on biodiesel.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2012, 04:56:44 AM »
Did any of them actually get back about Genocide?  Or did they all just say how god is really loving and we should all just worship him and forget about all this "genocide" nonsense?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline EV

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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2012, 06:30:13 AM »
I logged on this morning to three lumps of text larger than the walls of Troy. For your amusement....
Person 1 (also posted the first wall..)
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Elliot: Prove to me that there is ANY morality without God. If there is no God, then any "morality" you would come up with would be nothing more than a human construct, and no more valid than anyone else's.

To claim that there is no difference between any of the "religions" is proof of your ignorance of them. Instead of arguing this point, I would bring to back to the person of Jesus. You have one of three choices: Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic, or Lord. Those are your only choices. Jesus was not just a "good man" or "wise teacher" - Jesus did not give you these choices. He claimed to be none other than the Lord and Creator of the entire universe. Either He was the greatest deceiver that ever lived, fooling millions, and perhaps billions, into believing Him, or He believed what He was saying was true and it wasn't, and He was self-deluded and crazy (BTW, He was accused of this by his own relatives), or He is who He says He is. If Jesus is who He says He is, then that excludes any and all other religions and ways to Heaven. Jesus said He is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one gets to Heaven without going through Him. That is a radical statement, and can either be accepted or rejected. But do not insult my intelligence or the intelligence of my fellow Christians by saying that all religious faiths are the same.

I would suggest that, if you are to reject the claims of Jesus, then you enjoy this life to the fullest. Lie, cheat, steal, do what ever you can to better your position on earth and to enjoy all the comforts and riches you can. Maybe you could even do some "good deeds" (whatever those are, since there are no moral absolutes in your world) to make you feel good about yourself. Enjoy it now because, when you leave this earth (and all of us will), you will either enter into the non-existence that you believe awaits you, or you will stand before the Creator, and have to give an answer for your life.

Person 2
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?@ Person 1

We can't debate him into believing. It just isn't going to happen, he has to come to Christ in his own time and hopefully he will. Getting upset arguing and trying to prove points isn't the way to bring someone to salvation. Unconditional love patience understanding and gentle persuasion over time. God has a time and place for all if this, all the questions a solid answer to anything we could possibly argue about. Sometimes a conversation that has no end in sight or positive outcome for any involved should just end. He will not make us stop believing and we have done what we can to point him in the direction of believing. Argument over silly things that in the grand scheme of things mean nothing help nothing. I am not insulted that he thinks all religions are the same I thought similarly before I was saved. I am saddened by his ignorance but I have faith God has a plan for everyone even the grievously ignorant. I also trust in time if he is meant to find faith he will after all God gives us the gift of faith, it isn't his time to believe yet.

Me:
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Person 2, I can see what you were saying, but I cannot, and indeed can never have faith in a being that so perfectly designed the world, when he gave me a desire to write music, and eyes that are failing dismally. I'm losing my sight, and that's fantastic and part of the 'plan'. I guess you could say I am angry not at God, but at the people who keep telling me that He loves me. I can't be asked to argue this properly because neither of us are ever going to take a *blind* bit of notice of others positions... (hehe)

I cannot for the life of me see how one can believe in one religion and not another. They all have the same compelling arguments. I lost my faith aged 11, and have a pretty good life. I help people, volunteer, give to charity, love my family, try to be a pacifist... Just not because I have been commanded to by a divine being, or because I am afraid of Hell, or that I want eternal paradise.

I am exactly the same as all of you, except that I don't believe in God. We are all Humans, and we all have a duty to make the best of the world we have purely for the survival of our species. Difference is I do that without God, and you guys do that with God.

Hell is commonly referred to as simply a place without God. I would rather be there than in Heaven. You want to be with God. That's the only real difference.

Person 2

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If Mozart could write the music he did deaf then I see no reason why you couldn't do it blind. I believe you have a right to be angry at us we can be pretty darn annoying sometimes I know, I have been on both sides of the salvation fence just like you but in reverse order. I get angry I get bitter sometimes I wish I didn't believe in God simply so that I didn't have to try and understand why bad things happen to good people if it is all planned out. I am not saying that you are a bad person if you don't believe in God and I am not telling you you have to. You have free will for a reason. I just know that My faith has completely changed my life for the better and brought me out of an ever deepening depression which if it had not stopped soon I can tell you I would have ended my life maybe not then but a year maybe two or three down the road and I wouldn't be here. God literally saved me. Also, I feel obligated to tell you Hell is not simply life without God, it is eternity of unimaginable torture anguish and pain. God is love, without God there is no love, there is no love in hell just fire brimstone and anguish. Nothing on this earth is even remotely comparable. Hell is not a place you want to be and I know you must be sick of hearing it but Good hasn't foresaken you and maybe not today or even ten years from now but someday perhaps you will "see" that. I am not trying to force you to my beliefs, just making you aware of my, and our (most of the people on this thread) reality. One of us has to be "wrong" and which would be worse to discover upon death, that there is nothing after life, or that you were wrong and are staring an eternity of despair and pain in the face. You are going to believe what you will and fine maybe we are wrong maybe there is no God. I don't believe that, I cant believe bad things happen to good people for no reason. We don't have to make the best of the world because we can make it better. If the ultimate goal in life is procreation we would be rabbits and there would be no other purpose in life, but we have thought, emotion, creativity, logic, love, unexplainable things amounting to way more than instinct. There is more to life than survival, that is what separates us from animals. This conversation could continue forever, it has been going on for centuries and will continue until the end times.

Person 1
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Person 2: I am not upset. And I was not arguing. However, when someone makes a statement that all religious faiths teach the same thing or are essentially the same, that has to lovingly but firmly needs to be corrected.

I agree with you - if you can "convince" someone of the truth, something or someone else can convince them out of it. Are we to just accept statements against the truth without confronting them (in a loving way, of course)? I said nothing to condemn anyone - I merely stated the truth about the nature of Jesus and the logical conclusion one must come to if a person rejects that truth. God Himself said through Isaiah: ""Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool."(Isa 1:18). Faith in God is a reasonable faith, not a blind one, and can be logically "argued", although, as you comment, it is ultimately the Spirit of God working in a person's life to draw them. But first they must know the truth about Jesus before they can make an informed decision. Paul exhorts us to convince others of the truth: "Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching."(2 Timothy 4:2) "Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you." (Tit 2:15)

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Just a correction Person 2, Beethoven was deaf, not Mozart :P And Bach was blind too Elliot! And he kept his faith. Even still, I can only imagine how hard it is having sight trouble and I'm praying for you! And since everyone has taken the conversation from us, I feel its best be just to leave it be...
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"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."
- Philosopher John Stuart Mill, from a Parliamentary debate (May 31, 1866);

Offline EV

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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2012, 06:47:47 AM »
I responded to those massive posts with this:

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Person 2: bad things happen to good people for no reason.

Good and Bad are subjective. There is no good and bad. This was explored by the philosopher John Locke. Read his theory of secondary qualities. There are events, and whether they advantage our position or not we interpret them as good or bad.

God cannot be moral because if God is moral, then he loses Goodness. As C.S Lewis once said: "if good is to be defined as what God commands, then the goodness of God Himself is emptied of meaning and the commands of an omnipotent fiend would have the same claim on us as those of the 'righteous Lord." If morality depends on the perfectly free will of God, morality would lose its necessity, this means that there is no point in morality.

We have developed morality as a social feature that can be observed in the brain, Oxytocin is the name of the molecule that fosters group benefits. It's been nicknamed 'The Moral Molecule', and when given to people, it has caused them to feel bad for other people. People who have deficiencies in this molecule are people such as serial killers, murderers and rapists. It's been shown scientifically.

We can show objectively that Morality is but a human conception, and that God is not necessary for morality.

You can still argue that God causes the morality, but then you have to deal with the Euthyphro Dilemma., and the fact that if morality is not connected to God, then God cannot be moral, or the moral standards would limit God's power: not even God could oppose them by commanding what is evil and thereby making it good.

There is a wealth of information out there.

Person 1, you've just basically told me that because I do not believe in God, I am evil. I don't particularly agree with that. We can look at Christians who were not the best eggs, and show that they were evil. Not believing in God does not make you necessarily evil, neither does the fact that believing in God makes you good automatically. We all have the same moral standards, which are altered by our environments.

We can use Descartes' trademark argument for the existence of God innately to show God cannot be responsible for morality.

God is perfect. A perfect being cannot change or they will not be supreme. If God created morality, morality would all be the same, as it must be as good as possible to be. There is considerable variation in people's morals, and so we can show that morality cannot be innately implanted by God.

That is when we use the Bible as God's teaching on how to be moral. The Bible includes so many different moral views, including things such as 'kill unbelievers', 'Kill disobedient children', and so on. We reject those because they are in the OT and outdated. How come we know to reject them if morality comes from the Bible?

It is because morality is not objective but subjective. We are moral because we all have different upbringings. The same way as you guys were probably exposed to a lot of Christianity growing up. I was raised in a Jewish family, with an atheist father. We learn our morals from our parents as we grow, hence why everyone is so different...
Quote
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."
- Philosopher John Stuart Mill, from a Parliamentary debate (May 31, 1866);

Offline Kimberly

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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2012, 09:12:25 AM »
I wish I had the ability to talk like that IRL or on FB where people IRL also exist. I'm too afraid of persecution, retaliation, and isolation. I think the majority of my friends and family know but they don't understand the extent of it all. So, when they say silly things theist say such "I'm praying for you/your children." Or "God will make sure she's alright." I just smile and say, "Thank you." But sometimes I'd really like to discuss how I feel in the debt that you do EV. I'm rather envious of your ability to so.
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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2012, 09:27:13 AM »
There will be a prize of a BBQ-Baby to the best one-liner about this guy.

He certainly has quite an imagination.
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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2012, 09:33:08 AM »
The OP is the typical Xtian style, in one paragraph they describe how great, kind, powerful and well endowed etc. their god is. The next paragraph will be about the terrible punishment the same kind and merciful god will hand out if you don't believe in him. The paragraph after will again be about the greatness of the god and so on. And like usual, the Christians miss this contradiction and take even the most appalling tortures in a positive light.

Strange folks!

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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2012, 01:20:02 PM »
Eugh, I skimmed the wall, and it was dreadful poetry. If that is what the guy was going for anyway. He/she should add that whole paragraph to the Bible. They should call it, "God-will-still-take-you-if-you-are-not-with-us-because-he-is-out-there-but-we-will-still-bother-you-about-it-even-though-it-won't-matter-in-the-end-if-he-is-real Psalms".


Offline EV

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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2012, 02:59:35 PM »
Person 1:
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Elliot: I do not know where to begin with your last post. All I know is I need to take an aspirin now ... (LOL).

First of all, I never called you evil - you are calling yourself that. Morality can mean different things depending on who is defining it. As far as the "moral views" of the Bible, you are taking things out of context. There are instances where death was determined as punishment for certain behaviors. That was in a different time and culture, and there are reasons for which space here does not allow a thorough discussion of.

Instead of discussing the many issues you raise, I would again direct you back to a particular person, namely Jesus the Christ. He is the one person you must decide about, as I explained to you in the last post. Jesus is an enigma - He cannot be explained away. He said He came to rescue us from ourselves, to take us to Heaven. I did not call you evil, but I will say this - you and I are sinners. The word 'sin' simply means literally to "miss the mark". When an archer shoots at the target and misses, it is said that he/she "sinned". That archer had every desire and tried with all their might to hit the target, but they still missed. You see, because God is perfect (just as you have said), He cannot allow any sinful or imperfect thing in His presence. His holiness and purity would consume anything like that. There is no imperfection in Heaven.

This is the dilemma. God, who is perfect love, is also perfect light as well. If He would allow imperfect sinful beings into Heaven, He would have to make a way possible to do this. A righteous judge cannot let the guilty go free. This is where Jesus comes in. God sent His own Son to pay our penalty, yours and mine, so we could stand righteous in His sight. We, by believing in what Jesus did for us, take upon us God's righteousness and perfection. That is the way God has made for us. This salvation is a free gift, and cannot be earned.

This post is getting way too long. If you want to explore the claims of Jesus, I would be glad to help you. But I think it pointless to argue what C.S. Lewis, John Locke, etc. says about anything. Jesus claimed that salvation was in Him and none other. Either that is true or not. I would encourage you to not believe what others say, but earnestly explore the Bible for yourself, and ask God that, if He is real, and exists, to reveal Himself to you in some special way that you would know it was Him. I believe He may just take you up on that challenge.

Welcome back LadyA! Not seen you for ages! :D

It got worse.

I'm having a brilliant line from this as my new sig.

I responded with this, got a bit irritated at this point:

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"I would be glad to help you. But I think it pointless to argue what C.S. Lewis, John Locke, etc. says about anything. Jesus claimed that salvation was in Him and none other. "

Do you not see the total and mindless hypocrisy inherent in this statement? You tell me it's pointless to argue from oher's points of view... I am posting their arguments, because they are the result of years of refinement. You posted what Jesus said, and told me that I am being pointless for using other's quotes.

That sort of logic tells me that the Bible is irrelevant, because it was written by someone else.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 03:03:56 PM by EV »
Quote
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."
- Philosopher John Stuart Mill, from a Parliamentary debate (May 31, 1866);

Offline EV

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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2012, 03:05:20 PM »
I wish I had the ability to talk like that IRL or on FB where people IRL also exist. I'm too afraid of persecution, retaliation, and isolation. I think the majority of my friends and family know but they don't understand the extent of it all. So, when they say silly things theist say such "I'm praying for you/your children." Or "God will make sure she's alright." I just smile and say, "Thank you." But sometimes I'd really like to discuss how I feel in the debt that you do EV. I'm rather envious of your ability to so.

I know what you mean, I'm lucky because these people live thousands of miloes away from me. I'm in the UK and the people I'm talking to are in the US, and are friends of one of my musical friends in America...

The UK is famously liberal about secularism though. It's more accepted over here. Thank goodness...
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"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."
- Philosopher John Stuart Mill, from a Parliamentary debate (May 31, 1866);

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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2012, 04:09:00 PM »
EV, you are doing an outstanding job with your refutations. I salute you for that display of uncommonly erudite compositional skills (Kim does too). All that is well but,  as you must surely know, you are casting pearls before swine.  Please continue. We are nauseated by the babbling walls of text by number 1, but quite pleased with your elegant responses.

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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2012, 04:50:08 PM »
EV, you are doing an outstanding job with your refutations. I salute you for that display of uncommonly erudite compositional skills (Kim does too). All that is well but,  as you must surely know, you are casting pearls before swine.  Please continue. We are nauseated by the babbling walls of text by number 1, but quite pleased with your elegant responses.

I thank you for your high praise, it means I'm doing something right...

However I am merely revising for my Philosophy exam on Wednesday by messing around with fundy friends of friends. Anyway, Descartes says they don't necessarily exist anyway so I shouldn't bother arguing with figments of my imagination.

A verse on throwing pearls before swine.

"They didn't understand Plato, and Locke passed straight by
They have such a small grasp of logic, it left me wondering why...
Why do I really bother, to refute their various lies?
Because to throw pearls to the pigs is pointlessly & foolishly wise."

It's not quite up to MagicMiles's standards, but that's probably a good thing.
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"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."
- Philosopher John Stuart Mill, from a Parliamentary debate (May 31, 1866);

Offline EV

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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2012, 04:55:25 PM »
The guy who posted the OP usually has a few good debates with me. We get along well and have a lot in common, except for the fact that he is a fundamentalist non-denominational Christian and I'm a staunch Atheist who likes Philosophy rather than theology.

He PM'd me to let me know he's pissed off with his friends for being so preachy, and has banned them from commenting any further. I wouldn't be surprised if I start getting emails from them... :P

So the public show is over for now. I think I'll email him and ask him to expound... Anyone up for the amusement? It'll be like my very own mailbag thread!
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"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."
- Philosopher John Stuart Mill, from a Parliamentary debate (May 31, 1866);

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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2012, 05:28:49 PM »
Ask him what defines "perfect'?

If the world were perfect, would all birthday parties be exactly the same, because there would be only one way to have birthday parties perfectly? What if that perfect party involved a surprise? Which would mean every person would get a surprise party every year. And nobody would be surprised.

So I would need to know a whole heck of a lot more about what perfect would entail before I got all excited about it.

We wouldn't have to be perfect to make the world a better place. In fact, that would inhibit the ingenuity required.

(I won't even mention that all composers would write the same perfect song over and over. Don't want to scare you  ;D )
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2012, 12:24:06 AM »
Jesus, I would just reply with http links. Nothing they say goes off script.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_perry/trilemma.html
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2012, 12:26:32 AM »
Ask him what defines "perfect'?


We were watching an Australian movie last night, called Red Dog, and Red Dog obviously does perfect farts.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2012, 03:08:09 AM »
Quote from: Person 1
Jesus said He is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one gets to Heaven without going through Him. That is a radical statement, and can either be accepted or rejected. But do not insult my intelligence or the intelligence of my fellow Christians by saying that all religious faiths are the same.

Poor old Person 1, doesn't get it, does he?  Of course not all religions make the exact same claims - if they did, then we'd only have one religion in the world (duh!).  The point is that every religion makes similar claims about fantastic things, and all claim to be the one true faith....and I'm sure would feel similarly insulted that a Christian dare say THEY are deluded.

Quote from: Person 1
I would suggest that, if you are to reject the claims of Jesus, then you enjoy this life to the fullest. Lie, cheat, steal, do what ever you can to better your position on earth.....Enjoy it now because, when you leave this earth (and all of us will), you will either enter into the non-existence that you believe awaits you, or you will stand before the Creator, and have to give an answer for your life.

I do feel sorry for poor old Person 1, as they seem to have only the very basic arguments to hand.  First the deeply flawed "LLL" argument, then the "atheists are bad" hyperbole.  Fact is, the vast majority of atheists do what they think is good, because they think its is good.  Just like Christians....except Christians also have the promise of reward.

So I'd ask Person 1, who is the better person?  The one who does good and knows they will be rewarded for it?  Or the person who does good knowing there is NO reward, no afterlife, and who could gain far more in life by being bad?

And then I'd ask them what kind of a god would punish a person who did good with no expectations, yet reward the ones who creeped along, grubbing about for a reward for the "good" that they did.....
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2012, 03:26:56 AM »
IT CONTINUES! :D

Person 1:
Quote
Elliot: Why are you always putting yourself down? First you call yourself evil, now you call yourself pointless. I don't know what I have done to stir so much anger in you. Not once have I called you a name, nor have I said anything derogatory towards you. I am not trying to win an argument, nor am I trying to convince you of anything.

My concern is that you are listening to all these other people concerning what to think about Jesus, but you will not go to the source Himself. Jesus said He is the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE. Jesus said He and the Father ARE ONE. These are very radical statements. I am sure if I said these to you referring to myself, you would roll on the floor laughing at me ( and I would deserve that, BTW). But when Jesus says it, we should truly ponder these words carefully. If what Jesus says is true, then He deserves our attention (and much more than that). If what He said is not true, then we should use everything in our power to reject Him and His statements - He would then be the greatest deceiver and evil person of all time.

This is what I was trying to say before. Make up your own mind about Jesus - read His words for yourself. Don't rely on someone else's opinion. I asked you before and I will ask you again to challenge God to reveal Himself to you. Jesus promised that if you seek Him, you will find Him. Jesus promised that He would not turn anyone away that earnestly seeks Him. If this is true, then test it! I dare you!

This is just textbook now. 'You are angry. I never called you names, you're misinterpreting.'

Anfauglir, I'll give that a shot :P
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"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."
- Philosopher John Stuart Mill, from a Parliamentary debate (May 31, 1866);

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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2012, 03:40:28 AM »
Quote
Person 1, the reason I am getting testy is because you have not said anything different to what I have heard a million times from people of all faiths. I've already said before, there is no argument from that respect that works. It's called the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy. In terms of religion usually represented as the OneTrueChristian(tm) argument.

I have basically just heard this so many times. I have sincerely asked Jesus to be my lord and saviour. Nothing happened.

I don't think if he was wrong he would be the biggest evil person of all time. I would say that actually he was a good person for attempting to incite good in a multitude of people. I do not disagree that a lot of his teaching was good and morally acceptable even today. However, I do not think you can actually say he is a God, or the Son of God.

I have gone to the source itself. I'll copy in a part of an inbox I sent to [OP] last night:

"I'd just point out that quoting Bible isn't going to do much for me. I've read it many a time (I think I'm on the 7th time now...) and just enjoy the stories.

I'm all for a personal God if people want it, I'd just say it's important to be non-denominational. You have to (as you said yourself) read the holy scriptures and absorb what you want to absorb for yourself. It's all subjective. You shouldn't be told what to believe. You need to make that jump for yourself. For as Jesus himself said in Matthew 7:24, you need to build your foundations on Stone (not on sand). I think that you need to make your own foundations, and not let anyone else build them for you. <--- me finding my own meaning in Biblical Scripture ;)"

I can read and reflect on scripture and not believe it, I am trying to find a happy medium with you here. I don't think that you quite understand where I am coming from.

Consider this- who is the better person? The one who does good and knows they will be rewarded for it? Or the person who does good knowing there is NO reward, no afterlife, and who could gain far more in life by being bad?

You have said that I am going to hell because I do not accept Jesus as my ruler. What kind of a god would punish a person who did good with no expectations, yet reward the ones who constantly look for heavenly gratification about their good deeds?
about a minute ago · Like
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Elliot: Try and see it like this: I believe in logic as the only form of utter truth we have. I am an empirical nihilist. I do not accept anything unless there is evidence for it, and the evidence must be good evidence.

I also believe that there is no defining purpose to life, and that we have to all find our own purpose. For instance, my personal purpose is to write music to make other people happy, and to live as well as I can helping others.

Is that worthy of eternal condemnation?
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"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."
- Philosopher John Stuart Mill, from a Parliamentary debate (May 31, 1866);

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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2012, 09:51:21 AM »
He responded again. Typical confusion of Logic and Empiricism.
Person 1:
Quote
God is not an unreasonable God. He does not expect us to believe in Him on a whim. God said to His own people: ""Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool." (Isa 1:18). In God's world, there is no such thing as "blind faith". God has reached out to us in a way that can be grasped in a reasonable way.

You claim to be a man of logic, but I will contend that you use faith in your life much more than you think. For example, every time you operate a motor vehicle, you have faith that it will start when you turn the key and, perhaps more importantly, that it will stop when you press on the brake. You may not have the foggiest idea of why the car goes when you press the gas pedal, or stops when you hit the brakes, but you have a REASONABLE faith and trust in the automobile manufacturers and mechanics that it will do so. It is no different with the the Christian faith. Just like the car, I do not understand all of God's workings, but I know enough of them, and have seen enough historical, logical, and empirical evidence to believe in His claims.

Now I am going to say something that perhaps will sound really crazy to you - I actually know Him personally. This is what makes Christianity different from all "religions". I talk to God and He speaks to me! Wow! I am sure you really think I am crazy now!

I love my wife. I know her in ways no one else does. I cannot explain this logically. It has nothing to do with logic. It has everything to do with love and with life. Jesus, when He sat with His disciples at the Passover meal said to them, "With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer" (Luke 22:15). The Greek word for the term "fervent desire" is literally "lust". Jesus literally lusted after the communion and fellowship of His disciples. This is God's love expressed in the strongest terms. Just as a fervent and undying love in a marital relationship, God's love is even greater than this. This is why the scriptures say that Jesus, "... for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame ..." (Hebrews 12:2). Jesus endured the pain because of His fervent love for us, and the joy that it would bring Him to have fellowship with us. What love is this! What passion, what fervent desire and determination on Jesus' part to let nothing, even death itself, stop Him from communing with us! You cannot explain this away with logic, any more than you can explain away the love of a husband and wife with logic. Such is the love of Jesus for His children. "I am my beloved's, And my beloved is mine." (Song of Solomon 6:3).
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"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."
- Philosopher John Stuart Mill, from a Parliamentary debate (May 31, 1866);

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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2012, 09:59:04 AM »
Time to use Descartes' "Cogito Ergo Sum" against him:

Quote
You have confused logic and empiricism. Empiricism is the view that there is no such thing as synthetic a priori knowledge. Logic is the analytic progression of linking ideas to a conclusion that is justified by the premises.

I don't have faith that the car will start, I show through an inductive mental reasoning process that it has started 100 times before, therefore it is likely that it will start again. If it doesn't start, you find the problem, and have it fixed.

I am a man of empirical observation, not of logic. All I have observed of religion is that its followers can not put up any empirical evidence of a perfect being creating the universe, except holy scriptures and Jesus on pieces of toast. We can show quite simply that the Bible is not perfect and so there is no way it could have been from a perfect being. Jesus on toast I am sure you will agree is not evidence for God existing or not. I don't even know that anything except myself exists for certain because our senses can be deceived.

If the way we experience God is through experience, which is true, then our view of him is not necessary, that is to say that it could be untrue.

If God can not necessarily be true, He is contingent and therefore not necessary to the universe. If God is not neccessary, he cannot exist, because Descartes himself proved (through his version of the ontological argument) without doubt that God must exist necessarily if He exists at all.

I doubt that you'll agree with any of this, but it's a genuine argument. I am not arguing the Bible here, I am arguing against God as a perfect being, which is what the bible says and is what the being God is supposed to be.

Am I starting to sound like Olivianus at all? Tell me if I am, I'm starting to doubt my own existence here...
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 10:00:58 AM by EV »
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"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."
- Philosopher John Stuart Mill, from a Parliamentary debate (May 31, 1866);

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Re: "The Woo is Strong in This One"
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2012, 10:09:11 AM »
My eyes have always glazed over when anyone starts using "necessary" and "contingent" in that context.  Are there no other words to be used to make it understandable to a simple engineer such as myself?
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