Author Topic: JsT and Omen try to get along  (Read 8492 times)

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Online One Above All

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Re: JsT and Omen try to get along
« Reply #116 on: May 17, 2012, 03:58:39 PM »
Always, although you'll have to excuse me if I'm a little slow sometimes. I'm trying to deal with some issues which is taking its toll on my head.
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Offline Omen

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Re: JsT and Omen try to get along
« Reply #117 on: May 17, 2012, 04:06:19 PM »
How many times should a person ask for someone to support their position before it is not ok?

It's "not ok" the first time.  Question is, what do you choose to do about it, and why?  Hence my talk about goal/method and whether one of them might best be adjusted.  Goals could be adjusted, as I pointed out, not just methods.

You report to a moderator, moderator responds and asks JST to support issue, other poster come in and explain the same issue.

Result: JST refuses to support own arguments, blames me for not doing so.  No moderation occurs.

And don't give me this 'hence goal/method' bullshit, tell me exactly what you think I should do.
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: JsT and Omen try to get along
« Reply #118 on: May 17, 2012, 04:18:37 PM »
JST will not be answering any further questions in this section of the forum. All his activity is now restricted to the Shelter.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Online Azdgari

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Re: JsT and Omen try to get along
« Reply #119 on: May 17, 2012, 04:42:59 PM »
What you should do, Omen, depends on what you want.  If you want to have a meaningful discussion of religion, then you should find someone who is better suited to it than Jst.  That's my advice to you.
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Offline Omen

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Re: JsT and Omen try to get along
« Reply #120 on: May 17, 2012, 04:49:17 PM »
What you should do, Omen, depends on what you want.  If you want to have a meaningful discussion of religion, then you should find someone who is better suited to it than Jst.  That's my advice to you.

So you're ok with accommodating lying for the purpose of discussion denial and avoidance?

Now, don't respond by accusing me of twisting that around on you.  Whether or not you think I should just ignore it and move on, JST is being enabled by refusing to engage openly and honestly.  He's not held accountable and the moderation was irrelevant, we might as well not have rules.   ( Which I'm totally fine with )  In the end I am made out to be a bogey man, because I took it upon myself to bother taking him to task over it.
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Online Azdgari

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Re: JsT and Omen try to get along
« Reply #121 on: May 17, 2012, 04:54:53 PM »
Well it's most likely either doing that, or banning him.

As for you, your goals are all over the place.  Now it's not a meaningful and rational discussion you're looking for, it's justice.  Fuck man.  I don't know what you should do now, because you aren't even clear about what you want to accomplish in the first place.

I think that the decision that Pony just announced is great.  He's not ready for the kinds of discussions that this forum expects one to be able to engage in.  This keeps him out of the way.  Let's see how it goes.  It's not likely to go as poorly as all this.

Quote
In the end I am made out to be a bogey man, because I took it upon myself to bother taking him to task over it.

Oh, get off your damned crucifix.
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Offline Omen

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Re: JsT and Omen try to get along
« Reply #122 on: May 17, 2012, 04:58:17 PM »
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In the end I am made out to be a bogey man, because I took it upon myself to bother taking him to task over it.

Oh, get off your damned crucifix.

Stop kicking me when I'm down.  Don't get angry at me after I'm frustrated of being accused of something I didn't do.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: JsT and Omen try to get along
« Reply #123 on: May 17, 2012, 05:00:23 PM »
How do you make a comment in the Shelter? There is no reply button. Am I missing something?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Online Azdgari

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Re: JsT and Omen try to get along
« Reply #124 on: May 17, 2012, 05:01:38 PM »
Yeah.  This is kicking you.  It's painful.  It's aggressive.  It's damned violent.

As for being angry - a bit of light profanity does not always mean anger.

And as for you being falsely accused...of what again?  I don't recall doing this.

EDIT:  And as for your smite...you smote me for not being your friend?  Wtf?  I mean, I don't really care about having the smite on my record.  But I do admit to having a "wtf' moment.  This seems out of character for you.  It's so...petty.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 05:03:41 PM by Azdgari »
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Offline Alzael

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Re: JsT and Omen try to get along
« Reply #125 on: May 17, 2012, 05:05:49 PM »
How do you make a comment in the Shelter? There is no reply button. Am I missing something?

It's restricted to certain members. Basically the nice ones.
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Offline Omen

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Re: JsT and Omen try to get along
« Reply #126 on: May 17, 2012, 05:15:02 PM »
And as for you being falsely accused...of what again?  I don't recall doing this.

EDIT:  And as for your smite...you smote me for not being your friend?  Wtf?  I mean, I don't really care about having the smite on my record.  But I do admit to having a "wtf' moment.  This seems out of character for you.  It's so...petty.

I've been harassed for most of the day for something I never fucking did; without explanation, without citation, and for the most part while being completely ignored by anyone practically begging for an explanation.  It doesn't exactly place one in a nice friendly mood.  Your initial response wasn't to address what I'm accused of, of being 'uncivil', but instead to go off on a tangent about 'goals' where ultimately you're just going to conclude that we should allow people to lie to our faces and treat us like shit.  Accommodating the religious fantasies of others doesn't accomplish anything more than asking them to support their positions ad nauseam, the only net result is that the community is disrupted by someone that has little to contribute.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: JsT and Omen try to get along
« Reply #127 on: May 17, 2012, 05:17:41 PM »
How do you make a comment in the Shelter? There is no reply button. Am I missing something?

It's restricted to certain members. Basically the nice ones.

Am I not nice? Dammit! >:(
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: JsT and Omen try to get along
« Reply #128 on: May 17, 2012, 05:30:28 PM »
Am I not nice? Dammit! >:(

I nominate nogodsforme for Shelter privs. Not that I have any power whatsoever around here, but they let me in, so maybe my vote counts for something.  :police:  You certainly know more about the bible than I do, so could provide more meat for the current discussion he's started.
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Online Azdgari

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Re: JsT and Omen try to get along
« Reply #129 on: May 17, 2012, 05:33:47 PM »
I've been harassed for most of the day for something I never fucking did; without explanation, without citation, and for the most part while being completely ignored by anyone practically begging for an explanation.

Oh, that.  Meh, you're not uncivil.  You're just a pain to bother to talk to.  Hell, I actually know what all the words mean in your posts, and it's still a pain to try to sort it out a lot of the time.  Communication isn't priority #1 there.

It doesn't exactly place one in a nice friendly mood.

Why should that sort of thing affect your posts?[1]

Your initial response wasn't to address what I'm accused of, of being 'uncivil', but instead to go off on a tangent about 'goals'

I was not aware that the accusations of incivility were the only permitted topic of the thread.  I consider my line of questioning to be entirely on-topic to the spirit of the thread, albeit not to those accusations you mention.  I wasn't making them in the first place, so I'm curious as to why I should have only commented on them?

where ultimately you're just going to conclude that we should allow people to lie to our faces and treat us like shit.

Or restrict them to the Shelter.  An action that I already lauded before you made this post.  So why do you state this falsehood?

Accommodating the religious fantasies of others doesn't accomplish anything more than asking them to support their positions ad nauseam, the only net result is that the community is disrupted by someone that has little to contribute.

Depends on what they're talking about, and what they need.  Why do you think that Jst is still here?  He must know that we're not going to ever convert to be JWs.  I'm not suggesting that he's about to become an atheist, but what purpose do you think that this forum serves for him?
 1. Rhetorical question.
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Offline Omen

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Re: JsT and Omen try to get along
« Reply #130 on: May 17, 2012, 05:51:07 PM »
It doesn't exactly place one in a nice friendly mood.

Why should that sort of thing affect your posts?[1]
 1. Rhetorical question.

Because I'm a human being and, despite my ability to disconnect emotionally from most posts, I can occasionally have my feelings hurt.

Quote
Your initial response wasn't to address what I'm accused of, of being 'uncivil', but instead to go off on a tangent about 'goals'

I was not aware that the accusations of incivility were the only permitted topic of the thread.  I consider my line of questioning to be entirely on-topic to the spirit of the thread, albeit not to those accusations you mention.  I wasn't making them in the first place, so I'm curious as to why I should have only commented on them?

It is the only thing that has dominated in AC, as well as virtually any interaction between JST and I after he began trolling in response to virtually everything/one.  I don't consider your discussion of 'goals' as necessarily on subject or even fruitful, since the end result is to accommodate dishonest equivocating behavior.  I already explained why I responded so often, having done so is irrelevant to me, and only other people seem to have any issue with this.
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Offline Zankuu

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Re: JsT and Omen try to get along
« Reply #131 on: May 17, 2012, 07:14:36 PM »
Omen, I’m a little late to this party and I’m short on time, but I’ll toss in my unorganized two cents.

Your posting style is prickish.

The tone of your posting style has been brought to your attention before. Hell, one of the last threads from the old forum in 2008 has you defending yourself from being “uncivil”, but I guess that's neither here nor there.

I’ve mentioned this to you before. Why do I give a shit? I give a shit because I view your overly aggressive style as enabling. It makes theists want to run off and enables them to do just that by giving them an emotional out: “Omen is mean, goodbye cruel forum”. Take Jst for example: Grimm crafted a specific thread for Jst, extending a warm and friendly hand, and you beat the ever loving snot out of him in that thread. To what end? What was the purpose? What is your goal with Jst? I think Adzgari’s question concerning goals was a legitimate one that you avoided.

With that said I doubt you intend to come off as a prick, but people who visit WWGHA that don’t know you think you’re a prick, like Jst. Yes, you want support for claims, you want accountability, you want them to realize and correct the logical fallacies they commit (I want all of that too). But it seems like you want it all to happen in the very next post. It won’t happen of course. Most of the theists we get here have been indoctrinated since birth. And you’re right, indoctrination doesn’t excuse their behavior, but it is the reason they aren’t able to instantly admit their reasoning is wrong. They know for a fact Jesus rose from the dead and all the other nonsense, so when you present them with contradictions or cold hard facts or anything solid that goes against what they “know”, then it gets confusing and the mental gymnastics begin. It’s precisely the reason you get the dodging, etc.

Do theists dodge my questions? Yes. A theist recently dodged me hard about his god and it’s obsession with blood. Did I allow it to happen? Yes, because I realize my goal of freeing him along with other theists from their mythology won’t happen overnight. It’s going to take time and that’s why I try to be patient with them. It’s why I don’t use your approach and bludgeon them over the head in every single reply, demanding they face the facts. It doesn’t work. If anything it creates hostility and bitterness- neither of which help in a discussion. Yes, some do lie to save face and you’ve rightly called them out on it. But there are those that are lying to themselves and don’t realize it, and you get the unintentional byproduct of that. I think because you were never indoctrinated, the inability for a theist to instantly cut through irrationality will probably always be alien to you.

And I've mentioned this before also, but I don’t think you and some of the others have been particularly patient with the recent theists. For instance Alzael mentioned he has put in “so much” effort with Jst. Jst only has 550-ish posts under his belt. Effort and patience were displayed by those that helped chip away at Vynn’s convictions on the old forum. Before the WWGHA members helped free Vynn he had upward 7,000+ posts as a theist.

I like you, Omen. You have a better bullshit detector than I do and you’re able to recognize flaws in theists’ arguments from more angles than I can, and to that I tip my hat to you. But as far as being personable and caring about the people you’re having a discussion with- you’re a goddamned robot. What Christian is going to listen to the hostile "angry atheist" that seems like he has a chip on his shoulder? Present your compelling facts and hold them accountable, but damn it man, be as polite as you can.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 07:44:46 PM by Zankuu »
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Offline Omen

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Re: JsT and Omen try to get along
« Reply #132 on: May 17, 2012, 09:23:18 PM »
Omen, I’m a little late to this party and I’m short on time, but I’ll toss in my unorganized two cents.

Thanks Zankuu, you're the first person I think that has contributed some useful criticism.  My concern is whether or not I'm being uncivil unfairly, which I have been accused of repeatedly with little regard to promoting solid criticism of realistic examples.  This has increasingly made me angry as people keep making accusations, but never adequately support the kind of accusations they make.

Quote
Your posting style is prickish.

The tone of your posting style has been brought to your attention before. Hell, one of the last threads from the old forum in 2008 has you defending yourself from being “uncivil”, but I guess that's neither here nor there.

I’ve mentioned this to you before. Why do I give a shit? I give a shit because I view your overly aggressive style as enabling. It makes theists want to run off and enables them to do just that by giving them an emotional out: “Omen is mean, goodbye cruel forum”. Take Jst for example: Grimm crafted a specific thread for Jst, extending a warm and friendly hand, and you beat the ever loving snot out of him in that thread. To what end? What was the purpose? What is your goal with Jst? I think Adzgari’s question concerning goals was a legitimate one that you avoided.

I'll agree with you that I am very aggressive and very unapologetic.  However, I don't perceive these things as 'bad', where as some other people do.  I also don't agree with Adzgari's reasoning about what kind of goal I have or even the notion that I avoided explaining myself.  I told him up front that goals change based on what/who you're talking too, which he then later agreed with me.  He seemed to want a more precise goal and I said I wanted the goal of rational discussion, which as a goal has never once strayed from any of my posts.   I do not see the attempt to discuss 'goals' as relevant to the problem, since my goal has never changed.  The complaint seems to extend from having posted a lot and posted aggressively, which I unabashedly admit too.

The primary issue, for me anyway, is this:

How can you have a rational discussion with someone if they refuse to cooperate with supporting their claims?

Now, you say that I am 'enabling' the theist to not take posts seriously, but I can't agree with the criticism considering the theist in question was never taking posts seriously before, during, or afterwards.  My involvement is just one of a long list of convenient excuses as to not take any post seriously, just as I posted the example[1] for azdgari to consider since my primary concern was to get a description of my posting behavior and what is wrong with it.  In that particular example, dozens of individuals and moderators literally plead with the individual to just respond, but his desire to get back at me overwhelms his desire to be honest.  The irony is that some of our 'nice' posters supposedly contributed in this particular thread and unsurprisingly they were as discarded as easily as I.  No matter how nice you are, the result was the same.  Now, there is a lot of ambiguity in this and I'm not saying you're wrong, but the primary example is in my favor here.  Most theist come here with no intention of learning or listening, their primary goal is more often than not to do nothing but confirm what they want to believe.

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With that said I doubt you intend to come off as a prick, but people who visit WWGHA that don’t know you think you’re a prick, like Jst. Yes, you want support for claims, you want accountability, you want them to realize and correct the logical fallacies they commit (I want all of that too). But it seems like you want it all to happen in the very next post. It won’t happen of course. Most of the theists we get here have been indoctrinated since birth. And you’re right, indoctrination doesn’t excuse their behavior, but it is the reason they aren’t able to instantly admit their reasoning is wrong. They know for a fact Jesus rose from the dead and all the other nonsense, so when you present them with contradictions or cold hard facts or anything solid that goes against what they “know”, then it gets confusing and the mental gymnastics begin. It’s precisely the reason you get the dodging, etc.

They have a support system built upon emotional dependencies and often other kinds of rhetorical reinforcements for which to rely upon ( such as tautological in group language in the bible, that either praises those who believe or condemns those who do not believe ).   This is a well known phenomenon and one I've deeply thought about, but I disagree on who is or is not 'enabling' them.  I find that enabling them involves encouraging their confirmation bias through any means possible.  Now that includes being aggressive and unapologetic, but it also includes not challenging their presumptions or engaging in rhetorical games where as long as you never address their presupposition they will always rationalize towards that presuppositional unquestioningly.

Biblical contradictions is the best example of this, where effectively a person has assumed a context for a conclusion that all future rationalizations are made towards.  Whenever you point out a biblical contradiction, that person will always rationalize it through any effective means available to reach the conclusion that they've already assumed.  I see this too often to count when atheist are busy going in little circles, seemingly perplexed at how a theist literally makes up an answer to confirm what they want to believe without ever questioning why they would initially ever believe it.  This is a little bit of a pet peeve of mine watching other non-believers engage in it, but I am not saying this to distract from any other criticism.

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Do theists dodge my questions? Yes. A theist recently dodged me hard about his god and it’s obsession with blood. Did I allow it to happen? Yes, because I realize my goal of freeing him along with other theists from their mythology won’t happen overnight. It’s going to take time and that’s why I try to be patient with them. It’s why I don’t use your approach and bludgeon them over the head in every single reply, demanding they face the facts. It doesn’t work. If anything it creates hostility and bitterness- neither of which help in a discussion. Yes, some do lie to save face and you’ve rightly called them out on it. But there are those that are lying to themselves and don’t realize it, and you get the unintentional byproduct of that. I think because you were never indoctrinated, the inability for a theist to instantly cut through irrationality will probably always be alien to you.

I don't walk into any conversation with the assumption that I'm going to convert anyone and I find the idea a little obnoxious.  Most conversations I choose to take part in are often in the defense of science or human rights, but occasionally a theist can draw my ire if they behave more condescending than I like.  I also disagree with whether or not my tactics do not or have not worked, on the contrary I have had results.  You're going to mention Vynn in the next paragraph, but I really was a fundamental part of those discussions with Vynn and we became close friends.  I bludgeoned him with the same unapologetic fervor as I bludgeon anyone else.  I am also not some kind of inhuman force, I recognize the need for compassion and during the period with Vynn we talked privately quite often, he became a very important friend in a very dire time in my personal life ( the murder of my wifes brother ).  They are not always going to have the same results, just as consistently not calling them on their behavior is going to have any result.  If you don't challenge them emotionally on what they believe emotionally, they'll never budge from their pedestal.

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And I've mentioned this before also, but I don’t think you and some of the others have been particularly patient with the recent theists. For instance Alzael mentioned he has put in “so much” effort with Jst. Jst only has 550-ish posts under his belt. Effort and patience were displayed by those that helped chip away at Vynn’s convictions on the old forum. Before the WWGHA members helped free Vynn he had upward 7,000+ posts as a theist.

I like you, Omen. You have a better bullshit detector than I do and you’re able to recognize flaws in theists’ arguments from more angles than I can, and to that I tip my hat to you. But as far as being personable and caring about the people you’re having a discussion with- you’re a goddamned robot. What Christian is going to listen to the hostile "angry atheist" that seems like he has a chip on his shoulder? Present your compelling facts and hold them accountable, but damn it man, be as polite as you can.

Your description of being robotic is one of a habitual exercise for me, I've already admitted to being OCD in the past and in order for me to operate 'normally' in real life I often have to concentrate on multiple tasks to keep my brain busy.  I am not without emotion, but when I'm just analyzing a post, there really is no investment of emotion in it for me.  The emotion only becomes apparent when a theist refuses to be honest.  I am capable of being nice and don't really believe that I haven't been nice, I think the worst anyone can say is that I have been consistently aggressive and unapologetic.  I do hear your criticism about whether theist will listen or not, but in my experience I've never seen a person come here and convert that wasn't a fence sitter anyway.  On the other hand, I see not taking them to task on their claims as simple enabling them by confirming what they want to believe.

In my personal life I'm married to a wonderful woman, who is a believer, and I do not have a single friend who is an out non-believer.  I have a strange collection of friends from differing religious backgrounds, including a former JW who has progressed out of the cult with my friendship.  Emotional experiences are obviously not alien to me.
 1. ( http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,22596.0.html )
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 09:28:04 PM by Omen »
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: JsT and Omen try to get along
« Reply #133 on: May 18, 2012, 06:43:03 AM »
How do you make a comment in the Shelter? There is no reply button. Am I missing something?

It's restricted to certain members. Basically the nice ones.

Am I not nice? Dammit! >:(

Not everyone is.  I'm not!
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Zankuu

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Re: JsT and Omen try to get along
« Reply #134 on: May 18, 2012, 02:30:18 PM »
Omen, I almost regret posting that reply. I was lurking the new forum when it first came on the scene roughly four years ago. In that time I’ve read nearly every one of the thousands of replies that you and the other big timers have posted, so I sometimes forget that you guys don’t know me nearly as well as I like to *think* I know you all. As sad as it sounds, I consider the regulars here like family- both the self dubbed “unfriendlies” and “friendlies” alike (I also don’t like dividing the house like this, but that’s another topic). I connect with you all in a way I can’t with my deluded friends and family. I guess that’s why I didn’t hesitate to call you on this, and I expect you all to do the same if you don’t agree with me. Geez, that sounded mushy…

Thanks Zankuu, you're the first person I think that has contributed some useful criticism. My concern is whether or not I'm being uncivil unfairly, which I have been accused of repeatedly with little regard to promoting solid criticism of realistic examples.  This has increasingly made me angry as people keep making accusations, but never adequately support the kind of accusations they make.

No worries, I knew your thick skin could handle it. I just don’t see how being uncivil at any time is helpful in any circumstance. Can you cite an example? I’m open to the idea that it could be useful, but I’ve never viewed an instance where that was the case and where patience and civility wouldn’t trump it.

Most theist come here with no intention of learning or listening, their primary goal is more often than not to do nothing but confirm what they want to believe.

I absolutely agree here. But don’t forget that we’re encouraging that type of Christian to engage us. Hell, look at the link on the front page- it’s as if we're begging to be converted:

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Are you a devoted, unwavering Christian?

If you are a devoted, unwavering Christian, you know that God is real because you have seen him work in your own life. You have also seen God's love work in the lives of many other people, perhaps at your church or in your local community.

Obviously your belief is powerful and very meaningful to you.
 
Would you like to spread your belief to others so that they can see what you see? If so, we would love to hear from you.

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That’s a trap if I’ve ever seen one (I think Gray pointed this out also), but it’s a very useful trap in getting Christians to post on the board. I believe the “devoted, unwavering Christian” that we goad into visiting won’t respond to the bludgeoning that perhaps a more open minded Vynn did well with. But to semi quote the Dude, "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, my opinion, man."

They have a support system built upon emotional dependencies and often other kinds of rhetorical reinforcements for which to rely upon ( such as tautological in group language in the bible, that either praises those who believe or condemns those who do not believe ).   This is a well known phenomenon and one I've deeply thought about, but I disagree on who is or is not 'enabling' them.  I find that enabling them involves encouraging their confirmation bias through any means possible.  Now that includes being aggressive and unapologetic, but it also includes not challenging their presumptions or engaging in rhetorical games where as long as you never address their presupposition they will always rationalize towards that presuppositional unquestioningly.

Hmph. Makes sense, damn it. I think I’ve made the mistake of grouping all theists together and thinking that one style and approach works, rather than treating them as individuals and acknowledging the uncompromising and confrontational strategy can produce results.

Whenever you point out a biblical contradiction, that person will always rationalize it through any effective means available to reach the conclusion that they've already assumed.  […] This is a little bit of a pet peeve of mine watching other non-believers engage in it, but I am not saying this to distract from any other criticism.

Confirmation bias is a bitch, indeed. I won’t pretend I’m not above it happening to me. There was a badass journal article with a study done on confirmation bias and just how much it affects us. I’ll see if I can find it. It’s worth a read.

You're going to mention Vynn in the next paragraph, but I really was a fundamental part of those discussions with Vynn and we became close friends.  I bludgeoned him with the same unapologetic fervor as I bludgeon anyone else.  […] If you don't challenge them emotionally on what they believe emotionally, they'll never budge from their pedestal.

Good point. I’ll have to really think about this as well. A couple questions: Do you think you were as aggressive with Vynn right out of the gates as you are with our recent theist visitors? And do you think your level of patience with theists has changed at all since hearing the same old arguments over and again?

I do hear your criticism about whether theist will listen or not, but in my experience I've never seen a person come here and convert that wasn't a fence sitter anyway.  On the other hand, I see not taking them to task on their claims as simple enabling them by confirming what they want to believe.

I believe (and I could be wrong) that TOT wasn’t sitting on the fence when he arrived, nor was Vynn. But you’d have to ask TOT and you’re more familiar with Vynn than I am, so you tell me. *shrugs*

I guess what I'd like to see from the members is the ability to evolve and adapt to the theists we get. If a logical castration is resulting in hostility and heavy bleeding from the decent theists, let's try something else. The same would go for when a less than innocent theist is taking advantage of the more gentle approach, then release the hounds. On the other side of the spectrum I've realized I'm guilty of letting too many dodges go unpursued. But I'm not suggesting we change our personality and become someone we're not, however, I do think a little flexibility would be good for the forum.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline rickymooston

Re: JsT and Omen try to get along
« Reply #135 on: June 10, 2012, 07:15:57 PM »
Omen the theology of slavery your opponent used is very similar to the one used by the abolishionist league during the civil war.

I think you've raised some fair points though. I recall you quoting Moses's rules.

In terms of Christian slavery, the New Testament instructs believing slaves to serve their masters, including Christian ones with honor.

It should be noted, in Rome, some of the slaves were academics rather than the manual labourers in american slavery.

It is curious that both sides in the civil war judtified their views with the bible.

SPAG?
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.