60 Minutes - Paralized and Amputees - science wins over god

[Grimm]

"Inferior" is only meaningful with respect to a normative metric against which something can be judged.  The same is true of "best".

Please state your metric.

Is it relevant?  The human brain  gives humans more purpose than other organisms.  As the saying goes. 'There's more to living than being alive'. Humans may die out before things like bacteria, but we will certainly achieve more than them.

Will we?  By what metric?

Be careful:  anthrocenterism is a dangerous thing; there are bacillus that live in miles of water in the warmth and sulphur from volcanic vents on the seafloor, a place that humanity can barely visit (if my memory serves, precisely two humans have ever done so, behind huge amounts of protective gear) and then only for an incredibly limited time.   Is that an ... 'achievement'?  How do we measure achievement? 

Humanity has the ability to reason, but evolution and the natural world has only one gold star - survival.  We're doing fairly well as a species, but you could say that there are several species that have us fairly beat.. and most of them are bacillus.

[SwayzesGhost]

You are dodging my points. I asked no questions about eyeballs or breasts.

Let's try again -

No. I addressed your point.  The comparisons I made are relevant.

Assuming this deity exists you were referring to, it means the ability to regenerate limbs was given to some species. These species are lesser creations than the most important life creation that the deity made - humans. Why wasn't the ability to regenerate limbs given to humans?

Cause God didn't give humans the ability to regenerate limbs.

Well, if we have the "best evolutionary advancement of any species" why can't we regenerate limbs? Or do you want to take back that statement?

Are you saying regenerative limbs are the best evolutionary advancement? 

Are you a Christian? I need to know because so far I am only assuming this. If not what religion do you follow?

I'm a Christian. But not a fundamentalist ,and I don't attend church.

[SwayzesGhost]

Will we?  By what metric?

Be careful:  anthrocenterism is a dangerous thing; there are bacillus that live in miles of water in the warmth and sulphur from volcanic vents on the seafloor, a place that humanity can barely visit (if my memory serves, precisely two humans have ever done so, behind huge amounts of protective gear) and then only for an incredibly limited time.   Is that an ... 'achievement'?  How do we measure achievement? 

Humanity has the ability to reason, but evolution and the natural world has only one gold star - survival.  We're doing fairly well as a species, but you could say that there are several species that have us fairly beat.. and most of them are bacillus.

 If you are gonna measure life  by the 'gold star' that is survival, then I feel sorry for you.  Most humans feel their is more to life than that. 

[Azdgari]

SG, are you done trolling?  Will you answer openly?

[SwayzesGhost]

SG, are you done trolling?  Will you answer openly?

To whom?

[HAL]

Cause God didn't give humans the ability to regenerate limbs.

How do you know a god's decision on our design is the reason we can't regenerate limbs?

I'm a Christian. But not a fundamentalist ,and I don't attend church.

Do you believe Jesus rose from the dead?

[HAL]

SG, are you done trolling?  Will you answer openly?

You know, if he doesn't want to address the question, then...does he really have to?  I mean, it's not like he's trying to pass off his refusal to answer as anything else.

[Grimm]

Will we?  By what metric?

Be careful:  anthrocenterism is a dangerous thing; there are bacillus that live in miles of water in the warmth and sulphur from volcanic vents on the seafloor, a place that humanity can barely visit (if my memory serves, precisely two humans have ever done so, behind huge amounts of protective gear) and then only for an incredibly limited time.   Is that an ... 'achievement'?  How do we measure achievement? 

Humanity has the ability to reason, but evolution and the natural world has only one gold star - survival.  We're doing fairly well as a species, but you could say that there are several species that have us fairly beat.. and most of them are bacillus.

 If you are gonna measure life  by the 'gold star' that is survival, then I feel sorry for you.  Most humans feel their is more to life than that.

I do feel that humanity has far more to life than that - but how can you hold a bacterium to the standards of humanity? 

What is your definition of 'achievement' that would apply, evolutionarially speaking, that makes humanity somehow better than the rest of the biosphere?

[screwtape]

Swayze, 

This is a discussion forum.  That may seem obvious, but it is for people to discuss things.  Unfortunately, I have seen you ardently avoiding much discussion.  I would suggest you loosen up your typing fingers, take a less belligerent attitude and...discuss.  Stop making everyone drag every single point out of you.  Stop making one line replies.  Elaborate.  It will make everyone - including you - feel better about being here. 





edit - once -> one

[Azdgari]

To whom?

To me.  To Grimm.  To people you've been offering answers to that don't actually address what's being asked, but pretend to.

Grimm:  What metric of success are you talking about?  Is it survival?
SG:  Oooo, I feel so sorry for you for thinking survival is all there is.

When that's not what Grimm said.  You're using your own vagueness as an excuse to throw insults.  Why?

[SwayzesGhost]

How do you know a god's decision on our design is the reason we can't regenerate limbs?

How do you know that it isn't?  You implied it in a question to begin with. Now you're switching gears.

This is what you said

Assuming this deity exists you were referring to, it means the ability to regenerate limbs was given to some species.

By your own admission here we are working on the assumption that God does exist.  Thus that would make God the designer and chose not to give humans the ability to regenerate limbs.

Do you believe Jesus rose from the dead?

Yes I do.

[SwayzesGhost]

I do feel that humanity has far more to life than that - but how can you hold a bacterium to the standards of humanity? 

What is your definition of 'achievement' that would apply, evolutionarially speaking, that makes humanity somehow better than the rest of the biosphere?

Do you believe the brain is the greatest work of evolution? How can' you say it isn't? It has the biggest potential. Sure,  bacillus can survive extreme conditions  but they serve little to no purpose. They have no goals.  Their simplicity is what keeps them alive.  But with their simplicity, it means they will achieve less. Humans are on  their way to to producing things like bullet proof skin with spider silk.  Space travel. Colonizing mars, Mining asteroids, art and culture, all these things cause of humans. 

[Grimm]

I do feel that humanity has far more to life than that - but how can you hold a bacterium to the standards of humanity? 

What is your definition of 'achievement' that would apply, evolutionarially speaking, that makes humanity somehow better than the rest of the biosphere?

Do you believe the brain is the greatest work of evolution? How can' you say it isn't? It has the biggest potential. Sure,  bacillus can survive extreme conditions  but they serve little to no purpose. They have no goals.  Their simplicity is what keeps them alive.  But with their simplicity, it means they will achieve less. Humans are on  their way to to producing things like bullet proof skin with spider silk.  Space travel. Colonizing mars, Mining asteroids, art and culture, all these things cause of humans.

They are also only important to humans - what use does a dolphin or a squirrel have for space travel, or art and culture?  What meaning do these things have outside of humanity?

It's a tough thing to understand, I suppose - but 'space travel' isn't a universal value.  Apes couldn't care less about rockets, and this 'achievement' - which is an achievement by human standards - is meaningless to the rest of the inhabitants of this planet.

Ravens reason - they just don't have any need for rifles.

[HAL]

Do you believe Jesus rose from the dead?

Yes I do.

Thanks for answering the question.

[screwtape]

How do you know a god's decision on our design is the reason we can't regenerate limbs?

How do you know that it isn't? 

This does not answer the question.

Look, this is a discussion forum.  Discussion, being the operative word.  You appear to be trying your hardest to avoid discussion.  Your answers are minimal and you make people drag information out of you, information which you should be happy to offer, since, you know, you are visiting a Discussion forum.  It is obnoxious and frustrating to the rest of us.  I consider this approach to be a form of passive trolling.

I tried to help you out earlier with some good advice here.  You have ignored it.  Please reconsider.  I really don't want to be heavy handed here, but you are not playing well with others.

[SwayzesGhost]

This does not answer the question.

Look, this is a discussion forum.  Discussion, being the operative word.  You appear to be trying your hardest to avoid discussion.  Your answers are minimal and you make people drag information out of you, information which you should be happy to offer, since, you know, you are visiting a Discussion forum.  It is obnoxious and frustrating to the rest of us.  I consider this approach to be a form of passive trolling.

I tried to help you out earlier with some good advice here.  You have ignored it.  Please reconsider.  I really don't want to be heavy handed here, but you are not playing well with others.

Are you serious?

This is what he asked.

"How do you know a god's decision on our design is the reason we can't regenerate limbs?"

It undermines his original question. In fact this question does not make sense. If you chose to actually read down more.

You know I said

By your own admission here we are working on the assumption that God does exist.  Thus that would make God the designer and chose not to give humans the ability to regenerate limbs.

So his question is answered which did not require a drawn out response.   

[SwayzesGhost]

I do feel that humanity has far more to life than that - but how can you hold a bacterium to the standards of humanity? 

What is your definition of 'achievement' that would apply, evolutionarially speaking, that makes humanity somehow better than the rest of the biosphere?

Do you believe the brain is the greatest work of evolution? How can' you say it isn't? It has the biggest potential. Sure,  bacillus can survive extreme conditions  but they serve little to no purpose. They have no goals.  Their simplicity is what keeps them alive.  But with their simplicity, it means they will achieve less. Humans are on  their way to to producing things like bullet proof skin with spider silk.  Space travel. Colonizing mars, Mining asteroids, art and culture, all these things cause of humans.

They are also only important to humans - what use does a dolphin or a squirrel have for space travel, or art and culture?  What meaning do these things have outside of humanity?

It's a tough thing to understand, I suppose - but 'space travel' isn't a universal value.  Apes couldn't care less about rockets, and this 'achievement' - which is an achievement by human standards - is meaningless to the rest of the inhabitants of this planet.

Ravens reason - they just don't have any need for rifles.

Colonizing,  and space travel  increases survivability of humans if anything happened to Earth. Since as you phrased it survival is the
"gold star" of all species.  Thus it would be beneficial for the dolphins and squirrels to think about developing space travel since it will increase their survivability.  But they obviously don't have the  brain power to accomplish these feats, which is why they don't care. They don't care about the inevitable demise that will follow them. On the other hand  humans do.   Space travel and colonizing other worlds trumps is the ultimate survival tactic since it creates insurance for human race. 

[Azdgari]

Is racial supremacy a value?  Why is the survival of the species important?  All humans will still die.

[SwayzesGhost]

Is racial supremacy a value?  Why is the survival of the species important?  All humans will still die.

Are you saying you don't value the survival of the human race?  All human still die. Alright.  So why do you bother, or anyone else, to protect their children? They will die anyway right?


 

[pianodwarf]

So why do you bother, or anyone else, to protect their children?

Homo sapiens is as much a product of evolution as is any other species.  The fact that we're capable of understanding it, of wondering about it (and wondering about anything else, for that matter), does not allow us to escape it, at least, not to any significant degree.

Protection of offspring is a trait selected for by evolution, inasmuch as that if parents did not protect their offspring, the species would be more likely to die out.  This is, admittedly, not the case with all species -- there are some species in which children are left to fend for themselves -- but it is certainly the case with many if not most, especially among vertebrates.  Homo sapiens has the same instinct that causes lions to teach their cubs how to hunt and birds to attack predators that try to come to the nest to eat their eggs.  Simply being aware of the impulse, and how we came to have it, does not free us from it.

[Azdgari]

Are you saying you don't value the survival of the human race?  All human still die. Alright.  So why do you bother, or anyone else, to protect their children? They will die anyway right?

Wait, I thought you were the one who didn't hold survival to be the "gold standard" or whatever?  But to answer your question, the children are already alive.  I value their lives.  Lives that do not yet exist hold far less value for me, as I'm sure they do for you as well.  If you had to choose between the death of someone's infant, and them refraining from procreating...which would you choose?  Which is the lesser tragedy?  All other things being equal, I think we'd both agree that them refraining from procreating isn't as bad as the death of their already-living child, so we'd prefer that.  Does that answer your question about species-survival?

[fishjie]

So you're arguing that god doesn't heal amputees because the human race wasn't designed to regenerate limbs?   so youre saying this super powerful god that created the entire universe cant regenerate limbs because he is too weak to do so?    but he can heal the blind too.     the human race wasn't designed to regenerate eyes either yet in the bible the blind get their sight restored all the time.

thus your argument fails.   the reason god cant heal amputees is because he is imaginary.     

ps:   peter chops off a servants ears and jesus restores the ear, so in the NT god did heal an amputee, so your argument fails on that count too.   why there are no verified evidence today of such miracles taking place?   hint:  god is imaginary

[SwayzesGhost]

So you're arguing that god doesn't heal amputees because the human race wasn't designed to regenerate limbs?   so youre saying this super powerful god that created the entire universe cant regenerate limbs because he is too weak to do so?    but he can heal the blind too.     the human race wasn't designed to regenerate eyes either yet in the bible the blind get their sight restored all the time.

thus your argument fails.   the reason god cant heal amputees is because he is imaginary.     

ps:   peter chops off a servants ears and jesus restores the ear, so in the NT god did heal an amputee, so your argument fails on that count too.   why there are no verified evidence today of such miracles taking place?   hint:  god is imaginary

I'll respond to the other posts later. I'm on my way out. Just wanted to comment on this one.
close

"So you're arguing that god doesn't heal amputees because the human race wasn't designed to regenerate limbs? "

Where did I say this?   

so youre saying this super powerful god that created the entire universe cant regenerate limbs because he is too weak to do so?

Where did I say this?



You love to tell me what I said. So you're saying that you have to make crap up to have any type of argument?

[fishjie]

So you're arguing that god doesn't heal amputees because the human race wasn't designed to regenerate limbs?   so youre saying this super powerful god that created the entire universe cant regenerate limbs because he is too weak to do so?    but he can heal the blind too.     the human race wasn't designed to regenerate eyes either yet in the bible the blind get their sight restored all the time.

thus your argument fails.   the reason god cant heal amputees is because he is imaginary.     

ps:   peter chops off a servants ears and jesus restores the ear, so in the NT god did heal an amputee, so your argument fails on that count too.   why there are no verified evidence today of such miracles taking place?   hint:  god is imaginary

I'll respond to the other posts later. I'm on my way out. Just wanted to comment on this one.
close

"So you're arguing that god doesn't heal amputees because the human race wasn't designed to regenerate limbs? "

Where did I say this?   

so youre saying this super powerful god that created the entire universe cant regenerate limbs because he is too weak to do so?

Where did I say this?



You love to tell me what I said. So you're saying that you have to make crap up to have any type of argument?

You said it here......

Cause God didn't give humans the ability to regenerate limbs.

herp derp.   

so you're saying you're too stupid to even understand your arguments?

[SwayzesGhost]

You said it here......

Cause God didn't give humans the ability to regenerate limbs.

No I didn't say that there. Again. I'll ask where did say these  things? Are you a lier?
 
I'll help you out. This is what you accused me of saying.

"So you're arguing that god doesn't heal amputees because the human race wasn't designed to regenerate limbs? "

so youre saying this super powerful god that created the entire universe cant regenerate limbs because he is too weak to do so?

Figure it out.

[screwtape]

Are you serious?

yes.

Are you a lier?

We're a little sensitive about the "L" word right now.  I'd appreciate it if you used it more judiciously.  Thanks.

[SwayzesGhost]

We're a little sensitive about the "L" word right now.  I'd appreciate it if you used it more judiciously.  Thanks

But we aren't too sensitive about this I guess.

so you're saying you're too stupid to even understand your arguments?

[screwtape]

1. Swayze - please figure out how to quote.  there is a link to the tutorial in my sig.
2. Swayze - if you have a problem with a post use the Report button. 
3. Fishji - cool it.


If this discussion cannot be carried out by adults without name calling and whining, it will be locked.

[fishjie]

You said it here......

Cause God didn't give humans the ability to regenerate limbs.

No I didn't say that there. Again. I'll ask where did say these  things? Are you a lier?
 
I'll help you out. This is what you accused me of saying.

"So you're arguing that god doesn't heal amputees because the human race wasn't designed to regenerate limbs? "

so youre saying this super powerful god that created the entire universe cant regenerate limbs because he is too weak to do so?

Figure it out.

i already pointed out where you said it.   so not only are you too stupid to know how to quote posts, you are too stupid to even understand the own garbage that you post.     not surprising, given you believe in an imaginary sky fairy that is powerful enough to give humans a brain yet not powerful enough to regenerate their limbs....