Author Topic: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...  (Read 1424 times)

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Offline Traveler

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Someone mentioned the flight or fight response today, and it got me thinking. I'm fond of saying that if things get worse in the United States that I'm emigrating to Canada. But when I stop to think about it, then the bad guys win. Back when the Komen Foundation removed support for Planned Parenthood, which funds mammograms for women unable to afford them, the president of the foundation quit. But then isn't she leaving the conservative idiots with more power, because it could put them in the majority? At what point is fighting useful? And at what point does one give up and run away? What if all of the United States were like Kansas? Overrun by right-wing nutjobs, taking away women's rights because of their religion, wanting to teach young-earth creationism, and basically attempting to take us back to the dark ages.

I honestly don't know. I hate it that this country has become a laughing stock. I hate it that religious nutters are being taken seriously. I hate it that I'm seeing women's rights eroding right before my eyes because of religious, right wing, patriarchal idiots. I hate it. I've always thought that society would continue to evolve in a healthy direction. I am beyond dismayed to see our country devolving. It upsets me. It angers me. And it makes me want to fight AND fly away.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2012, 01:02:45 PM »
If things get too bad, fight by flying. The smartest people in your country are either atheists or "moderate" theists. Without smart people, the entire country will go down the drain, and the fundies can live in the "heaven" they created for themselves.
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Offline Death over Life

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Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2012, 01:21:56 PM »
Sometimes the best way to fight is to flight. I myself am thinking as you are, migrate to Canada or back to Europe, and let the religious nut jobs live in their Heaven as Lucifer mentioned. Not used to the new username, so my apologies.

Once the religious reich are finished killing off their women and each other with the stand your ground laws, then we can move back, and fix the problems they started since they are all now dead.

Then again, on the flipside, velkyn's thread is bringing about hope without this need because the religious freak's children know better than the parents do, and see through this crap that they try to shove down their throats. I do see atheists becoming a majority in the USA a very likely possibility, especially since the religious Politicians have finally showed their inner selves without their masks, and they show themselves as hypocritical racists, bigots, elitist, rich people. The kids are already seeing through them and see them as they are, so they will not want anything to do with their kind.

Offline Quesi

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Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2012, 01:43:13 PM »
I ask myself the same questions as well.  When it looked like Santorum was a viable candidate for president, I thought seriously about whether or not I would raise my daughter in a country under his leadership.  I have a beloved aunt and uncle who have urged me to move to beautiful San Miguel de Allende, Mexico on numerous occasions, and I actually looked into a job opportunity in Honduras. 

And then I look at the diverse faces of the members of the Occupy movement, and I (perhaps naively) believe that there is the potential to turn our country around. 

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2012, 01:57:48 PM »
I ask myself the same questions as well.

As do I -- not just about state/church separation and freethought, but about my other activist areas as well, and not just on the national level, either.

As far as atheism goes, the answer for me is pretty easy, but mostly for pragmatic reasons.  Emigrating to another country is exceptionally difficult for quite a few reasons.  I've looked into it occasionally but decided that the challenges were just too great, so instead I stay here and do my small part to try to help the nation grow up.
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Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2012, 11:36:51 AM »
I think an alliance of multinational corporations and plutocrats really run the USA, and are linked via all kinds of official and unofficial networks to corporations and plutocrats in other lands.  You see this if you look at the way US governance actually works, not how the govt. claims to work!

I think a lot of the religious folk in the USA are genuine and sincere in their desire for a pure theocracy, but hidden amongst them are opportunists just using the movement to gain power.  Certainly, the plutocrats and corporations are using the theocratic movement for their own ends. 

So in the USA, corporate rule might possibly have a theocratic face to it, just as today it has a pseudodemocratic face.  But it will still be corporate rule.

And corporate rule is coming to dominate the globe, supplanting the nation-state just as the nation-state supplanted the Holy Roman Empire after the Renaissance in Europe.  Nobody made an announcement about the nation-state being the new wave, but intellectuals in the 18th century took a look backwards and noticed that kings weren't bothing to ask Rome for permission to go to war very often anymore. 

The point is, you can run from the big wave that is coming over the world, but you can't hide. 

The 'Austerity' tyranny imposed on Greece by multinational corporations cloaked in the garb of transnational monetary systems is coming to the USA in the form of 'deficit reduction.' 

I think in the political sphere, the best bet is to try to make common cause with religious moderates toward resistance of the corporate state.  Electoral politics in the USA has been a sham now for more than a decade, and the real politics is in the streets. 

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2012, 12:20:23 AM »
I have a beloved aunt and uncle who have urged me to move to beautiful San Miguel de Allende, Mexico on numerous occasions, and I actually looked into a job opportunity in Honduras. 

Two of the most dangerous countries in the world...

And the problem with fight or flight is that the people in power won't give it up without a fight, and the kind of fighting that we need to do is illegal.

Recently I've been reading about the 30% tariffs on cheap solar technology from China, thus furthering our dependence on fossil fuels. Solar panel producers have already taken a hit to their stocks, and it will discourage further innovation in solar tech. The people who imposed those tariffs are quite literally damning us to unprecedented levels of pollution and climate change.

They are a threat to humanity and should be hung from the nearest tree in self defense, along with everyone who works in the oil, automobile, and tobacco industries. Sadly it won't happen.

They will continue getting fat and rich by raping our resources, killing our planet, and bribing our governments to keep it that way. There is no legal way to change that because they make the laws.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline jeremy0

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Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2012, 01:29:41 AM »
And the problem with fight or flight is that the people in power won't give it up without a fight, and the kind of fighting that we need to do is illegal. <snip for brief>

They are a threat to humanity and should be hung from the nearest tree in self defense, along with everyone who works in the oil, automobile, and tobacco industries. Sadly it won't happen.

They will continue getting fat and rich by raping our resources, killing our planet, and bribing our governments to keep it that way. There is no legal way to change that because they make the laws.
Exactly my point.  I have found that those currently in power have such a stranglehold on everything - from control of the news, judicial system, politics, everything we needed to keep things in check - all controlled by those that are getting fat and rich.  Since it is so engrained in the lawmaking process, the people who enforce the law, etc., there is absolutely nothing that the average Joe can do anything about it.

I had a conversation at work where we popped the question - 'if our founding fathers could see this place now, would they be proud of us or happy with it?'  My answer was - they would think we were all fools for letting things get so out of control, just as they were trying to prevent.  The answer from the dumb jock was 'yeah - they would just say "at least we don't have a monarchy"'.  That's precisely why we will walk ourselves to our deaths over these political fat-asses - because as long as people in the US can watch tv, see boobs, and drink beer they are perfectly happy.  Everyone who doesn't fit that bill is perfectly happy being ignorant, spoon-fed bastards that can't face up to reality and what is really going on in this place.

And what we need is a revolution - which they will fight with all the monetary might they have.  We may, indeed, reach a point in society where we resort to the 'illegal thing' in order to save us from those that are fucking things up...
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Offline Quesi

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Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2012, 06:35:19 AM »
I have a beloved aunt and uncle who have urged me to move to beautiful San Miguel de Allende, Mexico on numerous occasions, and I actually looked into a job opportunity in Honduras. 

Two of the most dangerous countries in the world...


Yes, I am familiar with the crime/murder statistics for each country.  But San Miguel has not been touched by the terrible drug wars plaguing Mexico, and the job in Honduras was in an isolated region in the Cloud Forests, far away from the gang wars of San Pedro Sula and Tegucigalpa. I'm also not oblivious to the fact that both nations are overwhelmingly Catholic, with growing evangelist communities.  But I've lived in Mexico in the past, and I know I can find refuge in secular intellectual enclaves, that are actually a strong Mexican tradition in and of themselves.  In Honduras, I would be working with Quakers, who are very comfortable with secularism, in a predominantly Mayan community that mixes Catholicism with traditional Mayan practices.  Those communities are not exactly "recruiting converts" and are actually quite private about their religious practices. 

The hardest thing for me would be moving from amazing NYC to a small city or very small town.  But for now, I'm here, and delighted to find out that my daughter's elementary school is a feeder school to the high school that was rated top in the state according to a recent US News and World Report study conducted with the American Institute for Research.  So now I'm fantasizing about my daughter's high school years here in NYC, where we live comfortably with no car, using heating oil that is shared among the 70-some units in my apartment building. 

I agree that diminishing fossil fuels will impact on our future in ways we cannot imagine. Change is inevitable, and flexibility essential.  So fantasies for a future trajectory may not come to be. 

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2012, 09:25:25 PM »
My 8 years in China have taught me that nobody needs cars. Private car ownership is a huge mistake that has cost us dearly. I'm all for public transportation. Taxis, buses, trains, planes, subways... that stuff is all fine. And even private cars would be OK if they were electric, solar, hydrogen, etc., though you wouldn't get the health benefits of riding a bicycle or walking.

Living in China I've never once felt that I needed a car. I can get around on my bicycle faster than a car and I never have to worry about finding a parking space. Not to mention I'm not making any pollution, getting exercise, saving tons of money, and losing weight. I've lost about 120 pounds. That's about what my girlfriend weighs.

Americans buy cars because it's just what you do. Chinese people buy cars because it's what Americans do.
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Offline jeremy0

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Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2012, 09:31:01 PM »
Americans buy cars because it's just what you do the structure of every town and city requires you to have a car. Chinese people buy cars because it's what Americans do.
Sorry, had to fix that one...  Obviously you've never had to use public transit in a major american city.  Taking the bus takes 2-3 hours, cab costs 40-50 dollars one way, if there's a trax, you have to take the bus to that, all in all takes 2 hours to get anywhere.  Then sometimes you have to take a cab as well.  Public transit in america sucks - that's why we all have cars.  The entire structure of housing and businesses is designed around the idea of a spread-out city, making cars a necessity..  Right now used car prices are up from people buying cheaper cars, btw..  I have found cars coming from the Asias to be particularly well-built with quality parts when compared to american 'contenders'...
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"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Offline Traveler

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Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2012, 10:10:46 PM »
Public transportation or bicycles can be a good option in a well-run city. It is not an option in the suburbs or in the country. A typical trip for me, to visit friends, or go to work (I'm an artist and travel to shows), requires a car. There are no subways in the country. And a bus can't hold my art display.

BUT, that all said, I'm a big fan of moving to a greener way of living. Instead of fighting for oil, we should have been putting our resources into building clean energy. It drives me stark raving mad that we had an oil crisis back in the 70s, were scared out of our minds, and today our average gas mileage is about the same on cars as it was back then. Hello? WTF is going on??? I used to get 42 miles per gallon on the highway in my '87 Honda Civic SI. That's the sport version of the Civic. today its rare to see a gasoline automobile get over 30-something.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2012, 09:00:40 AM »

BUT, that all said, I'm a big fan of moving to a greener way of living. Instead of fighting for oil, we should have been putting our resources into building clean energy. It drives me stark raving mad that we had an oil crisis back in the 70s, were scared out of our minds, and today our average gas mileage is about the same on cars as it was back then. Hello? WTF is going on??? I used to get 42 miles per gallon on the highway in my '87 Honda Civic SI. That's the sport version of the Civic. today its rare to see a gasoline automobile get over 30-something.

I admit I drive a gas guzzler I bought cheap and used. However, my lifestyle generally has me consuming an average of one gallon a day for two people. Roughly one fourth of the Average American household.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 09:05:51 AM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Quesi

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Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2012, 10:02:29 AM »
Americans buy cars because it's just what you do the structure of every town and city requires you to have a car. Chinese people buy cars because it's what Americans do.
Sorry, had to fix that one...  Obviously you've never had to use public transit in a major american city.  Taking the bus takes 2-3 hours, cab costs 40-50 dollars one way, if there's a trax, you have to take the bus to that, all in all takes 2 hours to get anywhere.  Then sometimes you have to take a cab as well.  Public transit in america sucks - that's why we all have cars.  The entire structure of housing and businesses is designed around the idea of a spread-out city, making cars a necessity..  Right now used car prices are up from people buying cheaper cars, btw..  I have found cars coming from the Asias to be particularly well-built with quality parts when compared to american 'contenders'...

Jeremy, some cities have better mass transit than others.  I love not having a car in NYC.  I've had them, but the way the city is designed, it is more work to have a car than not.  I'm lucky that I walk to my office.  Take the train to meetings.  The local grocery stores all deliver, so I after I'm done pushing my cart through the aisles, I go to the check out and leave my address and phone number, walk home, and an hour later a young man puts my groceries on the kitchen counter.  I hop on the train to get to my favorite museums or movie theaters or book stores or to visit my friends who don't live in the neighborhood.  When I'm tired or carrying too much stuff, or when my daughter is tired or cranky, I hop in a taxi. 

I also lived in Mexico City without a car for three years, and was perfectly content. 

Every city needs to invest in a quality mass transit system.  If they are well-designed, they really work. 

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2012, 07:29:24 PM »
In most countries around the world, at least the ones I have visited, you don't need to own a car to get to work, school, or to visit folks. Even in the country side in places without paved roads, you can still get around. Whether bus, train, motor taxi or public cars, you can get wherever you need to go. Usually at a reasonable cost.

Except in the US. We have built our cities on a cheap petroleum model where individual transport is the default option. We have to rely on destroying the environment and dealing with dictatorships just to get to work and back. We are the fattest people around and pay millions to try to lose weight. What's wrong with this picture? Besides everything?

After the 9/11 attack, I had a fantasy that we had a president who would really lead us into the future. First, no more oil from terrorist dictatorships like Saudi Arabia. Every patriotic American would park their car, except in emergencies. We would boycott foreign oil and walk, telecommute,  ride bikes, take buses or roller skate if we had to.

Secondly, we would put a huge surtax on the gas we produce domestically, making it really expensive, like ten bucks a gallon. People who were weathly enough to pay that would be contributing to a fund to pay for new public transit lines for the rest of us. And gas could still be available for emergencies.

Thirdly, we would take all the billions we would have used to go to war with some horribly oppressive desperate wartorn country (cough Afghanistan cough) and use it to award students, scientists and inventors generous grants in a no-holds-barred multi-year solar and alternative technology push.

Finally, we do everything we can to make communities locally self-sufficient so we don't have to move goods hundreds or thousands of miles if we don't have to.

Then I woke up and discovered that George Bush was still president. Well, a girl could dream.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2012, 09:09:45 PM »
Public transit in america sucks - that's why because we all have cars.

If more people used the public transportation system, it would increase demanded for more buses and dedicated bike lanes. The situation would improve. It sucks because we don't use it.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Chronos

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Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2012, 09:27:26 PM »
At what point is fighting useful? And at what point does one give up and run away?

Apparently, most Americans are not engaging in either fight or flight. Instead, they are engaging in apathy.

Our government is reflecting only the voices of those who take action. The bullying loudmouths win.

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline jetson

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Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2012, 09:35:31 PM »
Public transit in america sucks - that's why because we all have cars.

If more people used the public transportation system, it would increase demanded for more buses and dedicated bike lanes. The situation would improve. It sucks because we don't use it.

Man, there are just too many miles of open land in Texas.  The suburbs have spread dramatically.  And the city planners, well, they are non-existent as far as I can tell.  They all talk a good talk, but no one actually gets anything done.  They've been talking about better transit for as long as I can remember.

You make a good point, but it is indeed quite a challenge to turn the tide of apathy towards a better experience and life for all of us, while simultaneously preserving the very planet we live on.  The entitlement in the U.S. is so bad, it's hard to breathe.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2012, 11:14:37 PM »
The problem with flight as a tactic is that you end up leaving exactly the wrong sorts of people in a position of power.  It would not be that difficult for this country to go on a rampage, for example.

Offline Traveler

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Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2012, 09:30:23 AM »
The problem with flight as a tactic is that you end up leaving exactly the wrong sorts of people in a position of power.  It would not be that difficult for this country to go on a rampage, for example.

Yes, and this is exactly the sort of point I was trying to make. Because if we choose to leave, we make the place even worse than it was. Our personal sanity vs. the safety of the world. That's taking it to an extreme, but sometimes I believe that's exactly what we're talking about if things continue in this direction.
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Offline Omen

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Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2012, 10:53:23 AM »
Someone mentioned the flight or fight response today, and it got me thinking. I'm fond of saying that if things get worse in the United States that I'm emigrating to Canada. But when I stop to think about it, then the bad guys win. Back when the Komen Foundation removed support for Planned Parenthood, which funds mammograms for women unable to afford them, the president of the foundation quit. But then isn't she leaving the conservative idiots with more power, because it could put them in the majority? At what point is fighting useful? And at what point does one give up and run away? What if all of the United States were like Kansas? Overrun by right-wing nutjobs, taking away women's rights because of their religion, wanting to teach young-earth creationism, and basically attempting to take us back to the dark ages.

I find the infighting and bickering over the message to be more destructive to a cause than how one responds to such polarizing social politics.  Our 'enemy' will believe the worst about us no matter what we do or say, their typical projections of what they imagine that we do is already proof enough of that.  What they imagine us to do is more terrifying in their eyes than what we actively engage in, it also allows them to direct attention away from the issues.  This is a direct result of defending human rights, secularism, science, education, and the free exchange of ideas.  Those concepts have been more destructive to authoritarian mindsets and ideologies than anything we actually say in response to them.  The irony is that we need not lift a finger where their tendency is to poison each new generation against themselves, thus passively accomplishing what we desire.

The only thing that could work against us is our own in fighting.  The bogey man that has been painted for secularism doesn't exist, but actively complaining about how other groups use language in our community only enables the opposition and silences criticism.  Where there are half a dozen important political religious groups that exist for the sole purpose of denying others equal protections under the law, the same can't be said of secular groups.  The image christians try to paint is that the defense of secular values is the active attack on religious rights, but in their hubris only they are guilty of what they accuse.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline jeremy0

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Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2012, 01:13:18 AM »
Every city needs to invest in a quality mass transit system.  If they are well-designed, they really work.
yes, yes, yes!  Thank you - we all need to design our cities around a good mass-transit system.  If they are well-designed, they really work.  That is my exact point.  A lot of cities I have been to, the transit system is either poorly designed, or the city is built in a fashion that makes a transit system sort of useless. 

Example - salt lake.  The trax go basically in a straight line.  Why not all around the city?  Because of that, you have to take a bus to the trax, which takes freakin forever, because you have to hop busses, wait, hop another bus, wait, get on the trax, hop a bus, etc.  It's craziness..
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Offline jeremy0

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Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2012, 01:14:25 AM »
Public transit in america sucks - that's why because we all have cars.

If more people used the public transportation system, it would increase demanded for more buses and dedicated bike lanes. The situation would improve. It sucks because we don't use it.
And thanks - yes, if there were high demand for a good public transit system, it would be there.
I'll make a further correction to my previous statement that you also corrected, in saying that our cities were designed poorly for the afterthought of a public transit system because when they were being built, it was built under the assumption that everybody had cars..  So there's both points covered.
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Offline IAmFirst

Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2012, 03:58:04 AM »
Jeremy0, when most of our cities-- and European ones-- were being built, a "car" was not even an idea. Living in Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, history shows us we were looking at cart paths and horse trails. Pavement was cobblestones. And the horses and mules didn't have exhaust pipes. :D

The idea of a city becoming as large as they are now just wasn't considered.

BUT... I COMPLETELY agree with your idea of designing a city around mass transit. Problem is, can't do it. Many areas of many countries still have one-way roads, large buildings, bridges that can't be redesigned around. So a NEW city built like what you suggest is something to think about.

Now cross-country, OTOH, would be a fantastic idea. I applaud your thinking. ;)

2nd of all, if all you believe in is peer-reviewed papers, you won't go very far in life...

-- Shin :D

Offline IAmFirst

Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2012, 04:05:54 AM »
And to the OP, yes, I've thought about heading to Canada if Michelle Bachmann was even running for president, same with Santorum, Palin, ugh!

Thing is, not everyone that we see or hear applauding at gay-bashing at the pulpit is the majority in this country. I really do believe that many at the same churches and prayer groups do NOT support shit like that, but they stay at mass "for god" or something retarded like that.

Fleeing would be a loss for atheists and believers. I don't remember anyone stopping to fight a fire or not helping each other during 9-11 just because they decided to pray. Common sense is out there too.

We are all human, and none of us can ever be infallible. Sure, we can invent infallible deities, but only ones that seem to be really flawed. :D
2nd of all, if all you believe in is peer-reviewed papers, you won't go very far in life...

-- Shin :D

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2012, 02:39:46 PM »
Jeremy0, when most of our cities-- and European ones-- were being built, a "car" was not even an idea. Living in Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, history shows us we were looking at cart paths and horse trails. Pavement was cobblestones. And the horses and mules didn't have exhaust pipes. :D

The idea of a city becoming as large as they are now just wasn't considered.

BUT... I COMPLETELY agree with your idea of designing a city around mass transit. Problem is, can't do it. Many areas of many countries still have one-way roads, large buildings, bridges that can't be redesigned around. So a NEW city built like what you suggest is something to think about.

Now cross-country, OTOH, would be a fantastic idea. I applaud your thinking. ;)

IIRC, many US cities had fairly efficient streetcar systems that went everywhere, even dating back to when they were drawn by horses. By the mid 20th century oil companies had bought up all the streetcar lines and destroyed them. Instead of having better designed mass transit this forced the inefficient individual transport model on everyone.

People sometimes say that market capitalism leads to the best solution because people freely choose the best options and good drives out bad. That can only happen if all the possible solutions are on the table. If some solutions are eliminated to make others look inevitable, how can you say there really was a choice?

As for the US being too spread out for public transport, China and India manage to move millions of people around over vast distances, in big cities and in small villages, without most people owning cars. China is designing high tech rail systems that will cross the country almost as fast as a plane. Meanwhile the conservatives want to defund and eliminate Amtrak, the only passenger rail system we have in the US....
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2012, 02:52:35 PM »
The USA is dependent upon the personal car and petroleum for personal transport to such an extent that our relationship with the car is a defacto religion. 

You talk to Americans about the solving the specific problems required to evolve away from personal cars and petroleum dependent personal transport, and although there is some enthusiasm, the pushback you get is akin to charges of heresy. 

In fact, those who identify with 'conservatism' and Republicanism in the USA tend to be those who favor petroleum powered personal transport.  Not that 'liberals' and Democrats don't, but Repubs and Cons moreso. 

I agree with the theme here that Petroleum Powered Personal Transport is the center tent pole of most the irrationality and self-destructiveness in US politics.   Even more than Xianity even.  (There is an alliance of sort...the anti-science buffoons that deny climate change are popular with both Xians and Petroliests.)

People love their cars like they love their Jesus.  Jesus is stuck to the dashboard of their cars. 

My father preached at a country church when I was a boy.  Two familes who each lived 200 yards from the church attended every Sunday...they always drove, I don't know why.  I guess for them, the car was kind of a like a polyester sport coat...uneccessary, but it would be improper to show up for chuch without it!
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 02:55:52 PM by flapdoodle64 »

Offline EV

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Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2012, 03:00:16 PM »
Relating to the OP, I am glad I live in Britain and not America, solely for the reasons described by Traveller.

We rarely get religious nutjobs entering the news, because they tend to be British, and to cause a fuss about something... Well...

It just isn't cricket.

The largest story in our papers today was that Facebook is failing at stocks and that the Anglican Church appears to be considering allowing female bishops. Now that's actually interesting British news- imagine the content  of The Times on a slow day... ;)
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Offline jeremy0

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Re: Fight or Flight ... How Do We Respond to Religious Idiocy ...
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2012, 01:16:09 AM »
The largest story in our papers today was that Facebook is failing at stocks and that the Anglican Church appears to be considering allowing female bishops. Now that's actually interesting British news- imagine the content  of The Times on a slow day... ;)
The content of the Times on a slow day is 'God is dead!!'.  But yeah, I agree - you british are somehow handling the 'waking up from religion thing' way better than americans.  I would posture that it is because it's not cool in britain to be dumb, where it is cool in the american school system to not be a nerd... .......

Hell, just looking at comments posted on BBC News online vs. comments posted on Yahoo news online tells the whole story of which nation has more brains...  I need to be a zombie  :)
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."