Author Topic: The 20th is "Draw Mohammed Day"  (Read 683 times)

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Offline pianodwarf

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The 20th is "Draw Mohammed Day"
« on: May 16, 2012, 08:48:08 AM »
Just saw in my Facebook feed that Draw Mohammed Day is coming up again.  I haven't participated before, but this year, I think I will.  I can't draw for beans, but of course, that's not the point with this.
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Offline rev45

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Re: The 20th is "Draw Mohammed Day"
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2012, 09:28:31 AM »
I did this a few years ago.  He's tired and is about to take a nap.
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Offline Samuelxcs

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Re: The 20th is "Draw Mohammed Day"
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2012, 09:34:46 AM »
That looks so much like him. I don't think I could do better.
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Offline Quesi

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Re: The 20th is "Draw Mohammed Day"
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2012, 10:05:12 AM »
I have to say that I don't think that this is funny or kind.

What is the purpose of this campaign?  Do you think that Muslims will realize that the commandment prohibiting the creation graven images of things in heaven is silly, and that they will suddenly embrace rational thought?

No. 

It is just a game.  And a mean one.  It is bullying, really.  You pick a taboo, and then something that is precious to someone else, and combine them.  Spit on a child's favorite doll.  Piss on someones grave.  Pull down a women's low cut shirt so her breast is exposed.  No real harm.  The doll can be washed.  Your urine does not hurt the dead.  Everyone in the room has seen breasts before anyway. 

But it is not nice.  And it serves no purpose. 

If you want to mock someones silly beliefs, do it in such a way that you are forcing them to think, and perhaps question.  Don't do it just to be mean. 

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: The 20th is "Draw Mohammed Day"
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2012, 10:08:25 AM »
I have to say that I don't think that this is funny or kind.

It is not meant to be either.

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What is the purpose of this campaign?

The purpose is to make people -- preferably Muslims, but others as well -- think about something: when Muslims demand that no one ever draw a picture of Mohammed, they are demanding Islamic orthodoxy from people who do not even profess to be Muslims.  That is unacceptable and cannot be permitted.  We would never allow Jews to get away with insisting that everyone keep Kosher, Hindus with insisting that no one eat beef, or Catholics with insisting that everyone take communion.  Muslims should not be getting a pass with this, either, but they are.  The campaign is meant to make people realize that.
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Offline Quesi

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Re: The 20th is "Draw Mohammed Day"
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2012, 10:28:56 AM »

Quote
What is the purpose of this campaign?

The purpose is to make people -- preferably Muslims, but others as well -- think about something: when Muslims demand that no one ever draw a picture of Mohammed, they are demanding Islamic orthodoxy from people who do not even profess to be Muslims.  That is unacceptable and cannot be permitted.  We would never allow Jews to get away with insisting that everyone keep Kosher, Hindus with insisting that no one eat beef, or Catholics with insisting that everyone take communion.  Muslims should not be getting a pass with this, either, but they are.  The campaign is meant to make people realize that.

I am certainly offended by the concept that someone else's superstitions affect my lifestyle or restrict me in any way. 

I really have never heard a Muslim say that "nobody" should draw a picture of Mohammad.  I have heard Muslims say that visual representations of Mohammad are offensive to them.  There is a difference.

There are lots of things that Muslims think should not be drawn or sculpted or represented visually.  So they don't draw or sculpt or carve those things.  I don't imagine that Muslims like visual representations of Jesus either.  But they don't tell people not to paint pictures of him or throw stones at church stain glass windows to remove the image.  The devout just look away.

Perhaps there are in fact some fringe lunatic fundamentalists who think that NO ONE should ever create any visual representation of someone holy.  But I can't see how that justifies offending billions of human beings. 

Offline Nick

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Re: The 20th is "Draw Mohammed Day"
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2012, 10:33:11 AM »
They go after those who do like the cartoonist in Denmark.  If 100,000 people do it it becomes overwhelming.  Hopfully, they start to see the stupidity of their thinking.  Kind of like us making fun of the Holy Spook...which is suppose to be the unforgiviable sin.

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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: The 20th is "Draw Mohammed Day"
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2012, 10:51:22 AM »
I really have never heard a Muslim say that "nobody" should draw a picture of Mohammad.

Then you either haven't been listening, or you haven't been active in freethought circles for long -- not sure which.

There is, in fact, a large and vocal Muslim population who insists that no one (Muslim or otherwise) should draw a picture of Mohammed.  They have even issued death threats against people who have done so.  Draw Mohammed Day is meant to raise awareness of the problem and thus make progress in solving it.  It's not as if DMD just appeared out of nowhere for no reason -- there is no analogous "Eat Bacon" or "Eat Beef" day, to extend the metaphor, because such days are not necessary.  Jews do not threaten to kill anyone who eats bacon, nor do Hindus give death threats to people who go to McDonald's.  Muslims, however, do issue death threats over this -- and not in small numbers, either.

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There are lots of things that Muslims think should not be drawn or sculpted or represented visually.  So they don't draw or sculpt or carve those things.  I don't imagine that Muslims like visual representations of Jesus either.  But they don't tell people not to paint pictures of him or throw stones at church stain glass windows to remove the image.

Ever heard of the Buddha statues in Afghanistan?
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Offline Quesi

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Re: The 20th is "Draw Mohammed Day"
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2012, 10:54:14 AM »
They go after those who do like the cartoonist in Denmark.  If 100,000 people do it it becomes overwhelming.  Hopfully, they start to see the stupidity of their thinking.  Kind of like us making fun of the Holy Spook...which is suppose to be the unforgiviable sin.

       o
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I'm familiar with the incident in Denmark.  But I think that the response had more to do with perhaps valid concerns of growing islamaphobia.  The action was viewed as a symbol, that had much larger meaning - like painting a swastika on a synagogue or burning a cross on the lawn of a black family. 

I took a peek at wikipedia on the Danish incident, and I found the following historically significant:

Danish Prime Minister's meeting refusal (October 2005)
 
Having received petitions from Danish imams, eleven ambassadors from Muslim-majority countries asked for a meeting with Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen on 19 October 2005,[13] in order to discuss what they perceived as an "on-going smearing campaign in Danish public circles and media against Islam and Muslims". In a letter, the ambassadors mentioned not only the issue of the Muhammad cartoons, but also a recent indictment against Radio Holger,[14] and statements by MP Louise Frevert[15] and the Minister of Culture, Brian Mikkelsen.[16] It concluded:
 

We deplore these statements and publications and urge Your Excellency’s government to take all those responsible to task under law of the land in the interest of inter-faith harmony, better integration and Denmark's overall relations with the Muslim world.[17]
 
The government answered the ambassadors' request for a meeting with Rasmussen with a letter only: "The freedom of expression has a wide scope and the Danish government has no means of influencing the press. However, Danish legislation prohibits acts or expressions of blasphemous or discriminatory nature. The offended party may bring such acts or expressions to court, and it is for the courts to decide in individual cases."[18]
 
The ambassadors maintained that they had never asked for Jyllands-Posten to be prosecuted; possibly, the non-technical phrase of the letter, "to take NN to task under law", meant something like "to hold NN responsible within the limits of the law".[19] Rasmussen replied: "Even a non-judicial intervention against Jyllands-Posten would be impossible within our system".[20]
 
The Egyptian Minister of Foreign Affairs, Aboul Gheit, wrote several letters to the Prime Minister of Denmark and to the United Nations Secretary-General explaining that they did not want the Prime Minister to prosecute Jyllands-Posten; they only wanted "an official Danish statement underlining the need for and the obligation of respecting all religions and desisting from offending their devotees to prevent an escalation which would have serious and far-reaching consequences".[21] Subsequently, the Egyptian government played a leading role in defusing the issue in the Middle East.[22]
 
The refusal to meet the ambassadors has been criticized by the Danish political opposition, twenty-two Danish ex-ambassadors, and former Minister of Foreign Affairs, Uffe Ellemann-Jensen.[23]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy

So it wasn't about the images.  It was about the increasing marginalization and persecution of Muslims, especially those living in countries that were predominantly non-Muslim. 





Offline Quesi

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Re: The 20th is "Draw Mohammed Day"
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2012, 11:14:23 AM »

-- there is no analogous "Eat Bacon" or "Eat Beef" day, to extend the metaphor, because such days are not necessary.  Jews do not threaten to kill anyone who eats bacon, nor do Hindus give death threats to people who go to McDonald's.  Muslims, however, do issue death threats over this -- and not in small numbers, either.

That is true.  If you want to piss off a Jew, you sport a swastika or serve pork chops when they come over for dinner.  If you want to piss off a Muslim, you draw pictures of Mohammad or compare all Muslims to the Taleban.  Hindus seem either particularly resilient, or perhaps they are just not the targets of Western disdain. 

Quote
Ever heard of the Buddha statues in Afghanistan?

I am very familiar with the religious tyranny and the marginalization of non-Muslims in Afghanistan.  The Taleban are to Muslims what the coat hanger guy in Velkyn's link are to Christians. 

Edited to add - I know that my arguments are not going to stop participation in this event.  But just because I identify with the free thinker community does not mean that I support everything that is done in the name of free thought.  In fact, I hope that the community frowns on conformity. 
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 11:19:39 AM by Quesi »

Offline inveni0

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Re: The 20th is "Draw Mohammed Day"
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2012, 11:20:40 AM »
I am certainly offended by the concept that someone else's superstitions affect my lifestyle or restrict me in any way. 

In America, these people are allowed to vote.  Their superstitions affect millions of people.  Your argument is naive.

EDIT:  I do, however, agree that it is not nice to poke fun at people who suffer from mental illness.  It is when I stretch your argument to that extreme that I can agree with this being inappropriate.  But that's stretching it to an extreme, so....
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 11:22:44 AM by inveni0 »
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Offline Quesi

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Re: The 20th is "Draw Mohammed Day"
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2012, 11:22:07 AM »
I am certainly offended by the concept that someone else's superstitions affect my lifestyle or restrict me in any way. 

In America, these people are allowed to vote.  Their superstitions affect millions of people.  Your argument is naive.

agreed

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Re: The 20th is "Draw Mohammed Day"
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2012, 11:38:55 AM »
Well, in a way I agree with Quesi. I don't think its going to de-convert anyone. I don't think it will convince any Muslims that their religion is silly. I think it will just make a lot of Muslims angry, and I can't see that anger is going to help anything at all.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: The 20th is "Draw Mohammed Day"
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2012, 12:32:20 PM »
Well, in a way I agree with Quesi. I don't think its going to de-convert anyone. I don't think it will convince any Muslims that their religion is silly. I think it will just make a lot of Muslims angry, and I can't see that anger is going to help anything at all.

A lot of people have that view as well.  I understand it, but don't agree with it.  My own opinion on the subject is pretty much the same as Greta Christina's.

http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2010/05/why-im-drawing-mohammad.html
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Re: The 20th is "Draw Mohammed Day"
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2012, 12:50:47 PM »
Well, in a way I agree with Quesi. I don't think its going to de-convert anyone. I don't think it will convince any Muslims that their religion is silly. I think it will just make a lot of Muslims angry, and I can't see that anger is going to help anything at all.

A lot of people have that view as well.  I understand it, but don't agree with it.  My own opinion on the subject is pretty much the same as Greta Christina's.

http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2010/05/why-im-drawing-mohammad.html

Thank you for posting that link, pianodwarf. It adds context that actually makes me change my mind about this issue. +1 for that.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: The 20th is "Draw Mohammed Day"
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2012, 12:53:40 PM »
Thank you for posting that link, pianodwarf. It adds context that actually makes me change my mind about this issue. +1 for that.

Wow... that's something you don't see every day.  (From anyone, I mean, not just you... human nature, and all that).  Thanks!
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Offline Quesi

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Re: The 20th is "Draw Mohammed Day"
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2012, 01:37:06 PM »
I enjoyed reading the link as well, though it did no change my opinion.  I continue to disagree with her premise that I'm drawing Mohammad to send a message to Muslim extremists -- and other religious extremists -- that their terror tactics will not work.

I know that the words of theists don't carry much weight around here, but I really like the response to Draw Mohammad Day that the director of a civil rights group put out a few years ago.   

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/cair-a-muslim-response-to-draw-muhammad-day-94333684.html

I think that this is a fruitful discussion, and I'm interested in what others think. 

If anyone is interested, I can ramble a bit about Islamic interpretations of what is Halal and what is Haraam in terms of food and art. 

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: The 20th is "Draw Mohammed Day"
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2012, 04:19:22 PM »
I teach about the Middle East and I have a lot of Muslim students. I also have students of many other faiths. I would never put up a cartoon image that purported to depict the Prophet Muhammed in my office or anywhere else. Just like I would not put up an image that was intended to provoke or insult anyone of any religion.  (Except maybe Scientologists, who should all know better.  &))

However, I do live in the US, where I am protected by the First Amendment. I have the right to display political and cultural images that express my point of view. And I don't think that any religious group should be able to control the actions of people who are not even members of that group. Muslims are not immune to SPAG, and some think that Islam necesitates making Taliban-style madness the norm. I never want to live in a theocracy based on anyone's religion.

So I do have a cartoon on my office door that makes fun of the idea that you can't depict Muhammed. It says, in effect, that Muhammed (who is off-screen) is useless in an argument because he won't allow himself to be "drawn into anything". That way, I can express my viewpoint without my students thinking that I am hostile to their culture or religion. I think a little humor goes a long way.

Lastly, as we know, many people don't know the history and variations of their own religion, and that includes the fundamentalist Muslims. There have been Christian groups like the JW's who, following the OT commandments, don't think anyone should create religious images like Jesus hanging on a cross. If JW's started attacking people wearing crosses around their necks....

In past eras, the Prophet Muhammed was shown in art. Although nobody tried to draw him realistically, images of him were created by medieval Muslims. Fundy Muslims would destroy those historical images and say those artists were un-Islamic. Today's Protestants try to deny their connection to the pagan idol-worshipping Catholics who created their bible. Similarly, today's Muslims would not have a religion without the Islamic scholars and thinkers of the past, many of whom had no problem with showing Muhammed getting down and doing his prophety thang wid da homies. 
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Quesi

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Re: The 20th is "Draw Mohammed Day"
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2012, 07:22:01 PM »
I suspected that nogodsforme would have an interesting take on this topic. 

Mine continues to be a little bit different.  I support the freedom of speech, and I adamantly support the freedom of both artistic expression and the freedom to organize and protest.  At first glance, that is what this movement appears to be.  But it isn’t.

If someone wants to create a visual representation of Mohammed as a piece of art, then the person should be able to do that.  If somebody wants to create a visual representation of some guy getting a blow job, then the person should be able to do that. 

But artists creating each of these representations need to be aware of the fact that 1) someone is going to be offended and 2) because this piece of art is going to offend a subset of the population, it is not really appropriate to display it as “public art.”  While it is possible that both pieces might be worthy of a museum display, I think it is fair to say that both images might be inappropriate for a courthouse, or a playground or a supermarket.  Why?  Because we live in a society in which we respect each other and we kind of go through life trying not to intentionally piss each other off.

But this isn’t about an artist’s freedom to create a piece of art when a large percentage of the participants are drawing stick figures.  It is a protest.   

In terms of protest, sometimes the general public is not supportive of a particular form or protest, but end up “getting the message” anyway.  I think we can see that in the occupy movement.  A crotchety elderly gentleman I share the elevator with frequently has suggested on several occasions that the protesters “take a bath.”  But recently, he has started talking about the fact that the rich don’t pay their fair share of taxes.  He might not support the protest, but somehow, he got the message. 

So what message do you think the Muslim and the non-Muslim world is going to get from this protest?  That Muslims get offended by artistic renditions of their prophets?   And that some of them get really really really pissed off?

Jesus is one of their prophets, and quite frankly, I’ve never heard any Muslims bitch about the Christian practice of painting him and making statues and wearing necklaces with his dead body on a cross.  I mean, I’m sure there are some fundamentalist lunatics who find it really offensive.  But for the most part, Muslims don’t bitch about it because it isn’t about them. 

But pictures of Mohammed?  They kind of know that pictures of Mohammad are about them.  The message that the Muslim world is getting is that they are despised and that we want to show them how much by symbolically attacking what is precious to them.  They take it as an attack.  And why wouldn’t they?   

If you want to attack Islam, then question why they think that God is so merciful for letting Abraham slaughter a goat instead of his son.  If you want to attack Islam, then question human rights issues (especially women’s rights and immigrants’ rights)  in the various theocracies.  If you want to attack Islam, then ask why a religion which puts so much emphasis on charity allows its pious oil rich sultans to import slave labor from South Asia in the 21st century.  If you want to expose the evils of lunatic fundamentalists, then demonstrate how similar the Muslim fundamentalists and the Christian fundamentalists really are. 

But don’t consciously provoke billions of human beings just because you can. 

Offline Omen

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Re: The 20th is "Draw Mohammed Day"
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2012, 08:48:23 PM »
But pictures of Mohammed?  They kind of know that pictures of Mohammad are about them.  The message that the Muslim world is getting is that they are despised and that we want to show them how much by symbolically attacking what is precious to them.  They take it as an attack.  And why wouldn’t they?

I think you're making a fundamental error in assuming that the message actually matters.  Muslims, as well as christians, have already responded with open hostility and antagonism to all kinds of sentiments/actions/events no matter what their context or intent might have been.  Christians for example have responded with as much hostility to a sign that says "You can be good without god" as they might to a sign that says "Christianity is dumb".  We've already had the war of 'billboards', where no matter the context of the message, it creates the same response.

Kowtowing to their antagonism just serves the purpose of censoring expression or silencing those who are not like them.  It really isn't that much different than creating laws that support blasphemy.  Plus the protest doesn't really need to be about targeting them, it's about getting to those who are in between or in positions to be impacted by representing political populations.  Think about the many protests against racism in the mid 20th century, they turned what was considered 'normal' culturally to what is 'shameful' culturally.  White power groups lost influence because they weren't taken seriously, overall white culture gradually distanced itself from their influence. ( arguable, I know considering veiled racism )

Quote
If you want to attack Islam, then question why they think that God is so merciful for letting Abraham slaughter a goat instead of his son.  If you want to attack Islam, then question human rights issues (especially women’s rights and immigrants’ rights)  in the various theocracies.

Responding to their secret desire to silence those who do not believe as they do is protesting human rights
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 09:22:32 PM by Omen »
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: The 20th is "Draw Mohammed Day"
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2012, 09:18:07 PM »
I will draw Mohammed shitting on Allah's head because no religious con game is worthy of respect. It is an idea that causes much damage. The religious use the implied threat of reprisal, socially or physically, to intimidate non-believes to kowtow.   

If you choose to make fun of science, of truth, then the scientists simply ignore you, and it doesn't hurt their "feelings." Only theists that know deep in their subconscious that they are full of shit fear someone with a different idea.
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Offline Nick

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Re: The 20th is "Draw Mohammed Day"
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2012, 09:29:56 PM »
How about a pic of Mo Man sucking dick.  That should get their goat.  And goat getting is big time business over there.
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Offline jetson

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Re: The 20th is "Draw Mohammed Day"
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2012, 09:39:22 PM »
I support the protests because they level the playing field by making it impossible to kill everyone.  Admittedly, it is only the extremely radical Muslims that espouse death threats for drawing their holy moly, but it must be stopped.

We simply cannot tolerate physical attacks, or death threats for something as benign as depicting a prophet.  Fuck that noise.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: The 20th is "Draw Mohammed Day"
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2012, 09:53:33 AM »
Well, in a way I agree with Quesi. I don't think its going to de-convert anyone. I don't think it will convince any Muslims that their religion is silly. I think it will just make a lot of Muslims angry, and I can't see that anger is going to help anything at all.

Getting them riled up might just get them to show their true colors. More people will know Islam for the religion of violence that it is.
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