Author Topic: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech  (Read 2254 times)

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Offline flapdoodle64

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Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« on: May 14, 2012, 02:41:00 PM »
I was recently part of a facebook conversation on the whole same-sex marriage debate, and at one point someone said that theology should not be discussed on FB.  Of course, regarding the topic of gay rights in the USA, theology/religion is in fact that the elephant in the room...

Religion and theology are the chief justifications in the USA used by the opponants of equal rights.  Preachers and higher ups in many churches speak out and advise their followers to oppose equal rights, but these preachers and popes are protected from a lot of potential critics by the social convention of avoiding the topic of religion. 

I remember back in the 1990's when the State of Oregon had a referendum on the Death With Dignity Act.  Discussing my feelings on the issue with a Catholic friend, she accused me of Catholic Bashing, though I had said nothing about ANY religion!

In the USA, there is a general unspoken and widely held fallacy that being religious is 'good.'  Because being religious is 'good,' criticisizing religion is 'bad.'

In addition, many theists are taught to have a kind of mental force field that deflects their religion from any social responsibilities.  They are taught to percieve it as a personal slight if someone criticizes their homophobic and vindictive pope, or if someone mentions that their religion openly preached antisemitism until the 1960's. 

Getting back to where I started from: even the talking heads on Fox News are acknowledging that there is no logical basis to oppose same-sex marriage.  Yet still, from behind the Hate-Speech Force-Field of the Church, you can still say that God thinks gays are 'sinners,' and still deny them full rights and privileges in your club (such as membership in the clergy and marriage). 

The forcefield extends to the members of the church: they support financially an organization that opposes full human rights, yet do not recieve the stigma reserved for members of the KKK or Nazis. 




Offline velkyn

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2012, 03:01:23 PM »
if people are "sinners" then theists can, and have, tried to say "it's not me hating them, it's just my god. Golly how can I do anything about that?"  &)

since none of them can show that their god even exists, the argument is obviously bogus and definitely why religion should be stood up against. 

and heh, theology shouldn't be discussed on Facebook. :o  I'm sure they feel that way since their religion is essentially all that is causing this bigotry and they sure don't want to admit it.   

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Offline Nick

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2012, 10:29:41 PM »
Yeah, you can't be racist or a bigot if you wear the clock of religion.  You now have super powers to be an asshole.
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Offline Timo

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2012, 07:23:07 AM »
Yeah, being that we're coming off of Mother's Day weekend and Obama's announcement, I've been talking about this pretty frequently recently.  I've been on some churching it up shit over the last few days.  Personally, I'm realizing that I don't even fully understand the argument against same-sex marriage, aside from the notion that the Bible says two dudes shouldn't do that or whatever.  (In which case, the obvious rejoinder is that the Bible says a lot about a lot of things, including things that most of us do that are nonetheless perfectly legal.)  With that being the case, I'm not even sure how I'm supposed to argue with people. 

The only real argument I was confronted with wasn't even ultimately about whether or not the state should recognize same-sex marriages.  It really just boiled down to a question of to what extent to private, religious organizations need to recognize these sorts of things.  Honestly, with this in mind, I think Romney already gave up the game.  If a gay couple can adopt, what else is there for Christian conservatives to be afraid of them doing?  Visiting each other in the hospital?
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Offline stuffin

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2012, 08:02:56 AM »
Reading this thread made me think of an off topic concept (sorry).

If I commit murder I have committed a crime, but because I'm an Atheist I have not sinned.

Is it legal in most states to have sex with the same sex? Don't know the laws on that one. If it is legal to have sex with the same sex person there is no crime, but a sin if you are a believer.

Boy religion sure messes with the mind; it sets the table for double standards.
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Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2012, 08:04:44 AM »
If a gay couple can adopt, what else is there for Christian conservatives to be afraid of them doing?

They are afraid(or jealous?) of the fact that gay couples touch each others pinkies and winkies  :P


It's more than likely that male gay sex abuse was rampant in the bronze/iron ages and that some of the writers of the bible had, or knew someone that had, experienced violent gay sex abuse at some point in their lives. Thus their stance against it.

I have no evidence for that of course, but it makes sense to me as there is no logical reason to be against gay relationships other than the fact that you had very bad experiences with the sex aspect of it.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 08:06:22 AM by gonegolfing »
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Offline Seppuku

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2012, 08:16:39 AM »
That's why I call a bigot a bigot. Many religious folk pick & choose what they read out of their religious text, so if they're homophobic then there's a good chance it's not because their god tells them to be. Some people I would suggest are homophobic because they are taught through the use of the bible to be homophobic. For example: the Westboro Baptist Church, the way I see it, Fred Phelps was a homophobe and decided to use the bible to indoctrinate his kids that homosexuality is evil. As I've said before to *truly* follow the bible in the literalist sense would require you to have multiple personality syndrome just to account for the contradictions. Otherwise, it's just a case of picking and choosing what you agree with or what somebody has taught you to agree with.

I won't let anybody hide behind that. I find it ironic that people think you're a bigot when you don't let people be homophobic on religious grounds. Religious belief deserves no special treatment, because at the end of the day, it's belief and if I'm held accountable for my beliefs then so should everybody else, be they religious or not.


I wonder what bullshit stuff I could defend with the sentiment, "it's because I'm an atheist and you should respect me for it." Murder is one thing highlighted in this thread. Without a god, we may as well be Nihilists, there's no purpose for existence, so what's the purpose for morality? None. I think we should kill whomever we like? Why? Because life is meaningless and that's our belief and you should respect that. If you don't, then you're an ignorant bigot who's trying to deny us our freedoms to practice our beliefs!!!

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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2012, 08:28:43 AM »
there is no logical reason to be against gay relationships other than the fact that you had very bad experiences with the sex aspect of it.

Chinese don't like it, because it damages the ability of the family to pass on the family name and create the next generation of sons. Also, originally, the gentiles had gay sex in the temples.
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Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2012, 09:19:33 AM »
there is no logical reason to be against gay relationships other than the fact that you had very bad experiences with the sex aspect of it.

Chinese don't like it, because it damages the ability of the family to pass on the family name and create the next generation of sons. Also, originally, the gentiles had gay sex in the temples.

True in that sense Add, and I can see why individual family units with that in mind would be concerned. But we are talking about the religious viewpoint on the matter specifically and so it's still not a logical reason overall and even with male populations the concern, because it will always be a very very small minority that will have that type of relationship and so male populations will suffer very little, if at all, because of it.

Analysis shows that male gay relationships worldwide would equal out to being in the general range of 1-3% -- so gay unions as well, could never truly act as a mechanism to control over-population either.

I'm sure that there are atheists who believe gay unions to be unnatural and weird as well, but with the religious they hold their holy books out as their main reason for their stance first and foremost.

Just because god supposedly said so in an ancient book is where logic says ""No, unreasonable and therefore unacceptable, that just won't do"".

Cheers

 
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2012, 09:56:53 AM »
Chinese don't like it, because it damages the ability of the family to pass on the family name and create the next generation of sons. Also, originally, the gentiles had gay sex in the temples.

this strikes me as one of the reasons that Christians don't like having women in control of their own bodies either.  It "damages" the idiotic desire to pass on the family name.
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Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2012, 10:47:56 AM »

It's more than likely that male gay sex abuse was rampant in the bronze/iron ages and that some of the writers of the bible had, or knew someone that had, experienced violent gay sex abuse at some point in their lives. Thus their stance against it.

I have no evidence for that of course, but it makes sense to me as there is no logical reason to be against gay relationships other than the fact that you had very bad experiences with the sex aspect of it.

I think you might be falling into a common fallacy, the fallacy by which we assume that every social custom or taboo that a tribe adopts has an adaptive benefit.  One of the things I learned in anthropology class 25 years ago is that tribes often adopt customs or taboos that have no clear benefit to the tribe, and sometimes are detrimental to the tribe.  Yet because of belief systems, power structures or other social factors, the custom or taboo persist over time. 

Taboos and prejudices against gay sex occur in many societies but are not 100% universal. 

It might be that an early strongman in one of the prehistoric Hebrew tribes was a victim of getting raped, hence his homophobia.  But it is also possible that this speculative strongman fell in love with another dude who didn't reciprocate his love, and therefore the homophobia stems from that. 

Remember, this was a whacky group.  One of the early prehistoric strongmen was able to impose the sadistic and grotesque custom of circumcision on male babies.  I can't imagine that this practice, performed under caveman living conditions, represented a net benefit to the physical health of the children and the group. 

I don't know the true origin of prejudice againt gays, but we know that religions nurture and shelter the prejudice. 

I speculate that having at least a few gay people in primitive tribes would have been a benefit to the group.  That is because if the gay people didn't reproduce, they could function as reserve parents for children whose biological parents were killed (by war, disease, famine, etc.).  Also, people without children could perform many similar and different beneficial functions in a primitive human society. 

Offline rev45

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2012, 04:53:29 PM »
That's why I call a bigot a bigot. Many religious folk pick & choose what they read out of their religious text, so if they're homophobic then there's a good chance it's not because their god tells them to be. Some people I would suggest are homophobic because they are taught through the use of the bible to be homophobic. For example: the Westboro Baptist Church, the way I see it, Fred Phelps was a homophobe and decided to use the bible to indoctrinate his kids that homosexuality is evil. As I've said before to *truly* follow the bible in the literalist sense would require you to have multiple personality syndrome just to account for the contradictions. Otherwise, it's just a case of picking and choosing what you agree with or what somebody has taught you to agree with.

I won't let anybody hide behind that. I find it ironic that people think you're a bigot when you don't let people be homophobic on religious grounds. Religious belief deserves no special treatment, because at the end of the day, it's belief and if I'm held accountable for my beliefs then so should everybody else, be they religious or not.

You typical lefty.  ;)   From my local paper today.

Quote
Leonard Pitts’ misguided column, “A biblical look at ‘The Gay Debate,’” on May 7 begins with his basic assumption that all opponents to gay marriage are somehow “narrow-minded and small” simply because they believe that marriage should be limited to one man and one woman. 

These kinds of personal attacks are typical of the liberal left when they cannot refer to the Bible to support their position. As a result, they choose instead to attack those who disagree with them with name-calling in hopes that the “bigot” card will win the debate and trump any opposition to their cause often found in the Bible. 

Unfortunately, this strategy has served the liberal left well by causing the right to expend its energies defending its core beliefs rather than holding a meaningful discussion of the issue. 
Pitts’ eloquent attack centers on the belief that opponents of gay marriage are inherently bigoted and are using the Bible to defend their bigotry when in fact the exact opposite is true — conservatives use the Bible to first guide them in their beliefs, which then leads them to oppose issues such as gay marriage.
 
As long as we allow people like Pitts to begin the discussion with the assumption that those who disagree with them are narrow-minded and small our society will only continue to spiral downward as it moves further and further away from the teaching of our Lord. 

— Gus J. Skeadas, Springfield
http://www.sj-r.com/opinions/x85613648/Letter-Pitts-has-typical-leftist-view

Next those evil lefties will be saying that those that disapprove of interracial marriage are "narrow minded" and "bigots".  &)
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Offline Nick

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2012, 04:58:31 PM »
The Virginia House turned down a local prosecutor from becoming a judge because he was openly gay.  All Republicans voted against him after getting email bombed my some religious group.  They said he could not be impartial.  I guess you have to be straight in order to do that.  Sounds like hate, bigots, job discrimination to me.
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Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2012, 05:37:15 PM »
It's interesting that theists can use god both ways...

1. As a source of authority for their argument, trumping all others: 'Your arguments don't add up to enough to overcome god's will.'

2. As something to hide behind, in case someone might want to call them out on their BS: 'You can't criticize, I'm just following my religious beliefs.' 

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2012, 11:54:16 PM »
Chinese don't like it, because it damages the ability of the family to pass on the family name and create the next generation of sons. Also, originally, the gentiles had gay sex in the temples.

I live in China and I asked one of my Chinese friends why gay marriage is illegal in China. He came up with many reasons, all of them stupid and illogical.

He also said that gays shouldn't marry because they can't carry on the family line. That argument is flawed in so many ways. First, your family is not going to die out. You are related to every living thing on the planet, separated by time and evolution. Even among other humans, you have millions of living relatives within just a few generations.

I said that gay couples can adopt, and still carry on the family name. He said that isn't a real family. Of course that pissed me off because I have two adopted daughters. Who is he to tell me I don't have a real family?

I also pointed out that if you're going to forbid anyone who can't procreate to marry and limit marriage to only "real families" you should also ban adoption, and marriage between elderly people past child-bearing age, infertile men and women, and anyone with an injury or disability that prevents intercourse.

Also, someone who doesn't marry still won't carry on the family line regardless, so banning gay marriage doesn't fix the problem.

He said gays shouldn't raise children because a child should have both male and female role models. I said that by that logic we should take babies away from single parents. Also, unless a child is raised in a vacuum, the will be exposed to both male and female role models in their family, community, and culture. A child raised with two daddies will still understand the role of a mommy even if he doesn't have one.

At one point he actually said that gay marriage is illegal because if gay marriage were legal, the human race would die out. I tried to explain that allowing gays to marry doesn't mean everyone would have to be gay, but he didn't seem to get it.

He said that if gays have children, their children will be gay. I explained that all gay children are the result of heterosexual sex.

In the end he admitted that gay people just make him uncomfortable, and he supports the ban simply because he doesn't like them.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline jetson

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2012, 06:09:13 AM »

I explained that all gay children are the result of heterosexual sex.


I cannot believe this has never occurred to me.  Learning is awesome.

Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2012, 10:15:47 AM »

It's more than likely that male gay sex abuse was rampant in the bronze/iron ages and that some of the writers of the bible had, or knew someone that had, experienced violent gay sex abuse at some point in their lives. Thus their stance against it.

I have no evidence for that of course, but it makes sense to me as there is no logical reason to be against gay relationships other than the fact that you had very bad experiences with the sex aspect of it.

I think you might be falling into a common fallacy, the fallacy by which we assume that every social custom or taboo that a tribe adopts has an adaptive benefit.  One of the things I learned in anthropology class 25 years ago is that tribes often adopt customs or taboos that have no clear benefit to the tribe, and sometimes are detrimental to the tribe.  Yet because of belief systems, power structures or other social factors, the custom or taboo persist over time. 

Taboos and prejudices against gay sex occur in many societies but are not 100% universal. 

It might be that an early strongman in one of the prehistoric Hebrew tribes was a victim of getting raped, hence his homophobia.  But it is also possible that this speculative strongman fell in love with another dude who didn't reciprocate his love, and therefore the homophobia stems from that. 

Remember, this was a whacky group.  One of the early prehistoric strongmen was able to impose the sadistic and grotesque custom of circumcision on male babies.  I can't imagine that this practice, performed under caveman living conditions, represented a net benefit to the physical health of the children and the group. 

I don't know the true origin of prejudice againt gays, but we know that religions nurture and shelter the prejudice. 

I speculate that having at least a few gay people in primitive tribes would have been a benefit to the group.  That is because if the gay people didn't reproduce, they could function as reserve parents for children whose biological parents were killed (by war, disease, famine, etc.).  Also, people without children could perform many similar and different beneficial functions in a primitive human society.

I don't know why you would think that, as I'm not.

I agree with you and would say that most if not all customs, and even taboos, are emotionally driven. Whether it be the tribes of the Arabian desert that mutilate genitalia or the tribes of the Amazon that do dangerous mind altering drugs, those are both practices that serve no biological benefit to the individual or the tribe, have no logical reasons for doing them, and have pure emotion as their basis.

In homosexuality we have something very different in that it has a biological and gentic basis for its existence in the individual and therefore can be logically explained.

Given these facts then, it is the prejudice against it that is what's unnatural, illogical, and unacceptable in our societies.

I'm quite certain that gay prejudice is somehow rooted in our early ancestors opinions of the sexuality of the gods that they had created and believed in. After female gods had been forced to take a back seat and by the time we get to the Hebrews/Israelites, we see the claim of there being only one true god, it's male, it hates homosexuals, and it suggests that we kill them on sight. That to me is for sure evidence of a deep seated human hatred that is a result of something extreme and harmful that has happened to an individual or group of individuals somewhere along the line in our early history that would require this kind of emotion and actions. 

However, since the lack of biological understanding for homosexuality has now been taken away from individuals today, then there is no excuse whatsoever for gay prejudice, and most of any that we do see is the result of the ridiculous and dangerous emotions that are religiously driven.

Cheers

 
"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Offline Poseidon

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2012, 03:18:45 PM »
Somewhere along the way I was told, read, or absorbed by osmosis, that in a certain period of time, many heterosexual greeks practiced homosexual behaviour, and for a practical reason. They believed that their country was becoming overpopulated and that stern measures were needed.  Meanwhile the jews saw themselves as underpopulated and that additional hetero copulation was the order of the day. ...........Is there basis in fact for this tale?

(On a semi humorous note; Is it true that a male citizen of the isle of Lesbos shall be called a Lesbian?)

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2012, 10:44:19 PM »
Lesbonian sounds more right.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2012, 03:36:33 PM »

In the end he admitted that gay people just make him uncomfortable, and he supports the ban simply because he doesn't like them.

That is what it really comes down to. "I think you are icky" might work for a while on the kindergarden playground, but should never be the basis for public policy measures that affect real people's lives.

Besides, how does gay marriage affect the "ickiness" problem? Gay people will have that "icky" gay sex whether they are married or not. Nothing else changes. They will just be married people having "icky" gay sex. Don't like gay sex? Think it's "icky"? Then don't do it. :police:

Given how marriage is not just about sex, but also about family,  responsiblity, community, committment and all that hard boring stuff, the married gays may well be having less of that "icky" gay sex because they are busy paying the bills, cleaning the house, mowing the lawn, attending the PTA meetings and arguing about whose parents they will visit for the holidays.

Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2012, 03:58:58 PM »
When I read the subject I thought you were talking about this. I was hoping a new update wasout, but a quick google search didn't turn up any updates on that issue yet.

It makes me sad when people still try to use religion to hurt other people. There's no justification for it. I still don't understand why we as a society are so concerned about what happens in the privacy of someone else's home; or why we care what they do with their life. There's so many civil rights that we lose just because some book says god doesn't like it.
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline jeremy0

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2012, 09:19:09 PM »
<argument>...  In the end he admitted that gay people just make him uncomfortable, and he supports the ban simply because he doesn't like them.
Now, JoeB - that's how to get to the bottom of the issue at hand.  This is exactly what it is about - people just not liking other people for whatever reason they might have to do so..  It's called 'discrimination'.  And it would seem, when discrimination for one group stops, people find other groups to turn their bigotry eyes towards..  It's a hopeless genre
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Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2012, 10:55:09 AM »
I agree that the root of homophobia is something vague and mucky, personal and psychological.

But homophobia is worsened and institutionalized by Xians and anybody else who holds the view that the Bible is a magic book containing wisdom from God. 

Because we have a vast and amazingly durable infrastructure that promotes and maintains the belief that the Bible is a magic book written by God and the Bible contains Leviticus and other portions which are blatantly homophobic. 

If it weren't for the Bible-worshippers, homophobes might more often have to stand up and take responsibility for their feelings.  But because of the whole Bible-worshipping infrastructure, a homophobe can avoid forever the reality of his own bigotry even in the private stillness of his own mind. 

Moreover, I wonder how many religious parents might be driven by their religious teaching to persecute their own gay kids, out of a well-intentioned desire to avoid seeing the kid have to go to hell for eternity for the sin of making out with someone of the same sex. 

There's a lot of intellectual religionists and biblical scholars who know the context of the Bible and know it's BS from a factual perspective, but most don't have the 'nads to stand up and confront the whole Bible-driven gay-bashing industry.  Bishop Spong is about the gutsiest of them in that he admits that vast portions of not  just the Bible, of Xianity itself are barbaric, primitive, BS.  But for some reason he isn't high profile. 

I suspect the fact that religious intellectuals are mostly silent on the factual idiocy of the Bible is that they know that without the myth of the Magic Book, the whole thing will fall apart.  So in the end, it's better to have a whole community built on fantasy, even if that community persecutes certain groups, than it is to expirement and try to build a community based on truth.

Offline jeremy0

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2012, 01:05:42 AM »
I suspect the fact that religious intellectuals are mostly silent on the factual idiocy of the Bible is that they know that without the myth of the Magic Book, the whole thing will fall apart.  So in the end, it's better to have a whole community built on fantasy, even if that community persecutes certain groups, than it is to expirement and try to build a community based on truth.
Yes, they are scared of (a) it being real, (b) it not being real, or (c) losing control and power.  People are afraid of change.  I am not - I welcome it.  Without change, we don't progress as a society.  Funny how the Magical Book hasn't changed in 2,000 years; and when people talk religion, it hasn't changed in 2,000 years.  Their views on things hasn't changed much in 2,000 years..

But you take a look at the people whose Magic Book doesn't 'speak truth to them', and you'll see a modern society.  You are absolutely correct in saying that whatever these groups hate, their 'Magic Book telling them it is good or ok' only amplifies that hatred.  That's a major issue...

People don't want a new society because they are comfortable living in a fantasy-land of their own mental status.  When given a heavy dose of reality, people may no longer be comfortable, and just like that - change might come swiftly...
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 01:07:26 AM by jeremy0 »
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2012, 04:07:27 AM »
The problem I find with most religious people is: if you say anything slight against what they believe, you are personally attacking them. Note: you're not attacking their religion or deity but themselves. Which shows how inane and selfish they really are.

Recently I had a discussion with someone where they made 2 contradicting statements, where a negative was stated by a fellow Christian though she considered the Christian in question to not really be Christian, in the "True" sense of the word yet then stated, without retraction, that she didn't know if he was a Christian or not. When I called her out on it, she made it seem as if I misunderstood what she said, and that I was attacking her because of her religion. Another member came in and stated I shouldn't attack her 'cause of her religion. Yet, I wasn't. I commented solely on her contradiction of one statement to the other, and that tuened into me attacking her.

In the end I did imply she's an idiot but only if she didn't understand that she said two separate things. Stating that this other Christian isn't a "true representation" of what she thinks is a "True Christian" (like her) and then in another breath stating she didn't know, does contradict her statement of her stating he isn't 'cause he interprets the Bible differently to her. She told me that she didn't contradict herself, and she holds to both statements. Perhaps I'm wrong and it isn't a contradicting statement but it sure reads as one to me.

But then again it's my fault: I did attack her by questioning what she said.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2012, 10:51:43 AM »
The problem I find with most religious people is: if you say anything slight against what they believe, you are personally attacking them. Note: you're not attacking their religion or deity but themselves. Which shows how inane and selfish they really are.


That to me is one of the most fascinating phenomena of religion...the idea that if you criticize someone's religion, you criticize the person.  I can see how that functions well for the churches, because it means the church can hide behind the belligerant defensiveness of the members.

The Xian mythology that I was taught as a kid was that early Xians were persecuted, tortured and murdered wholesale by the Romans...I was taught of all the Xian 'martyrs.' 

Yet it wasn't until I was an adult that I learned of all the accused heretics, witches, Jews, Native Americans, Polynesians, Muslims, Africans, etc. that were imprisoned, enslaved, tortured or murdered by Xians in the name of protecting the faith.  Not to mention all the dead and wounded from various wars the Xians fought to protect the faith.

I mention this because I think it's typical.  A Xian goes through the world thinking his faith is 'persecuted' yet oblivious of all the horrors that Xianity has inflicted upon the world. 

It's a horribly skewed reality. 

Similar to the way Americans view the world, only worse. 

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2012, 09:34:19 PM »
^I was with you up to the last line.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2012, 02:33:55 PM »
I'm with him, including the last line.

We Americans think we are the best thing to ever set foot on the earth, next only to Jesus himself, and if anyone disagrees, we are offended. No other country has ever done anything better than we have, whether it is health care, politics, schooling, food, transportation, or child raising. And if anyone dares to point out some of the terrible things we have done around the world, well, them's fighting words!

We are truly the Roman Empire of our age. :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Timo

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Re: Religion is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card for Hate Speech
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2012, 03:22:21 PM »
I'm with him, including the last line.

Indeed.
Nah son...