Author Topic: The Avengers  (Read 1782 times)

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Offline screwtape

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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #87 on: May 18, 2012, 08:52:25 AM »
The Killing Joke  foe example is up there with JoG on my list.

I have that one. One of my favorite stories.  the art is interesting, but I prefer other styles more.  Biz is among my favorites[1], Barry Windsor-Smith[2] and Alex Ross[3].  I really liked the art in the Black Orchid series as well as Meltdown, the series with Havok and Wolverine.



I didn't love Watchmen, but what I liked about it was how flawed all of them were.  They were very human.

 1. I used to buy Heavy Metal regularly in hopes he'd have something in it.
 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Windsor-Smith
 3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Ross
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Offline kin hell

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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #88 on: May 18, 2012, 10:49:37 AM »
what do you all who like the Watchmen find so special about that book?  I personally found nothing that interesting about it and am wondering what I might be missing.

Scale first of all, in terms of apparently unconnected streams being fully connected,  the classic being the pirate story comic book in a world of mundane human masked heroes. And yes, it isn't about superheroes, Jon was the only nominee for that category and he was an unlimited god in comparison to any other superhero you could name (I believe[1]), and yet was still constrained by the diminishing vestiges of his human origin.

The artwork style was a real step down from some of the amazing work that was becoming available until you become aware of the games the artist played throughout, which then demanded poring over every panel to see if you'd missed anything.

The scale of the backstory, history revealed, the relationships of the characters, their characters characteristics themselves, their connection to the times they lived in.

I don't know vel but I do remember first reading it when it came out in Oz, and I was blown away by it.  I have read it times since, and it may have lost some of the original impact, but (for me at least), none of the quality.

I deliberately try not to recall any of it (like trying not to think of the colour orange) so I can read it again in a couple/5 years.

Re: the movie version, it was doomed as nearly all movie versions of fan fanatics book based sources are, they just cannot live up to the personal world interaction the readers have already established.



somewhat askew, but if you want a remarkable book (fiction) that explores the golden age of comics with a very different take, I cannot recommend
Kavalier and Clay too highly.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3985.The_Amazing_Adventures_of_Kavalier_and_Clay


Phew, am I off the grid or what. Just googled for that link, and in passing I just saw they're making (or have made a TV series of the book) not having a TV I'd heard nothing about it (nor had I realised the book had won a pulitzer which I reckon it fully deserved)


And screwt thanks for the names .........more treasure hunting

 1. although "the flash" blog article gives me pause  ;)
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #89 on: May 18, 2012, 10:59:53 AM »
Agree about Kavalier and Klay being a wonderful book, I recommend it with same enthusiasm.

Agree with many of the comments about Watchmen.  The art was not as spectacular as a lot of other stuff from the 1980's, but Dave Gibbons had a real skill with making human looking faces.

And that was the thing about Alan Moore's script.  The characters were more human than most prose fiction writers can manage...you got a feeling of really knowing them, even in the uncomfortable and ambivalent ways that we know real people.  So besides it being on vast scale in terms of history and ideas, there was a profound intimacy as well. 

Offline screwtape

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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #90 on: May 18, 2012, 11:52:57 AM »
two of my favorite graphic novels are Kingdom Come[1] and the Dark Knight Strikes Again, the sequel to the Dark Knight Returns.

I like to consider them together, because they deal with similar issues - super people sharing a planet with mere mortals - and come to opposite conclusions, both brilliantly.  The art is also diametrically opposed also.  Alex Ross' Kingdom Come is super realistic.  Feast your eyes on "Big Blue" and Captain Marvel:



But in TDKSA, it is classic Frank Miller, with simple forms comprised of blocky shapes:


   

I suggest reading them consecutively.  The order does not matter.
 1. art by Alex Ross http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_Come_(comics)
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Offline velkyn

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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #91 on: May 18, 2012, 12:13:21 PM »
Okay, I can see that, kin hell.  And it's indeed personal tastes becuase all that you see as good about the book, I see as bad. Ah well.  :)
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Offline kin hell

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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #92 on: May 18, 2012, 08:40:59 PM »
  The characters were more human than most prose fiction writers can manage...you got a feeling of really knowing them, even in the uncomfortable and ambivalent ways that we know real people.  So besides it being on vast scale in terms of history and ideas, there was a profound intimacy as well.

....nicely put bloke

Okay, I can see that, kin hell.  And it's indeed personal tastes becuase all that you see as good about the book, I see as bad. Ah well.  :)

and that's the monkey lament in a nutshell. 
lack of telepathy that makes it impossible for me to "grok" your take even while understanding and acknowledging that that is your take.
great place for theistic inventions to hide and thrive eh?

two of my favorite graphic novels are Kingdom Come[1] and the Dark Knight Strikes Again, the sequel to the Dark Knight Returns.
 1. art by Alex Ross http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_Come_(comics)
 

Goldmine of a thread.

my gypsy leaning rural preferences have isolated me from the fonts of good stuff.

I have TDKSA, re-read it just a couple of months ago  classic,    but I've never even seen Kingdom Come before    :) :) :) :)  wonderful thread for the professional escapist.
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline screwtape

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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #93 on: May 18, 2012, 10:44:57 PM »
but I've never even seen Kingdom Come before 

ZOMG!!!! I envy you.  You are so lucky.  take it slowly.  His versions of wonder woman and Power woman (formerly power girl) are so cool. 
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Offline kin hell

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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #94 on: May 18, 2012, 11:17:51 PM »
but I've never even seen Kingdom Come before 

ZOMG!!!! I envy you.  You are so lucky.  take it slowly.  His versions of wonder woman and Power woman (formerly power girl) are so cool.

you are talking to a professional sensualist of 50+ years enthusiastic uninhibited unrestrained indulgent practice 
....take it slowly????

as if I could.


I will immerse

I will let it flow over me as a wholistic(sic) other-worldy sensory overload

I will immolate the subject with my intent and I will ascend the experiential heights in the up-draught of unconfined consume. ;) ;) ;)



Actually I am halfway through the first read[1]   
And it is brilliant ..........brilliant   
I'm going to step away from it for a while to ease the brain burn.

 1. gotta love the connected world  bushbash rural Oz and in less time than it'd take me even get to the nearest town (which doesn't have a comic outlet anyway) ...I'm reading this  I'll definitely hardcopy own this sometime
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 11:22:49 PM by kin hell »
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline mrbiscoop

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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #95 on: May 19, 2012, 09:09:02 AM »
Jack Kirby came up with a bunch of interesting new characters when he moved from Marvel to DC in the early '70s. My favorites were The Demon and New Gods.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #96 on: May 31, 2012, 07:50:13 PM »
1. saw the Avengers this past weekend.  Meh.  If I'd not heard all the rave reviews, it would have exceeded my expectations.  But because of the rave reviews, it fell egregiously short.  It was not terrible and there were a couple of cute moments.  Wolverine's cameo was very good. But overall, I was underwhelmed.

2. kin, I'd like to know your thoughts of Kingdom Come, once you've had a chance to digest.
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #97 on: June 01, 2012, 04:39:27 AM »
1. saw the Avengers this past weekend.  Meh.  If I'd not heard all the rave reviews, it would have exceeded my expectations.  But because of the rave reviews, it fell egregiously short.  It was not terrible and there were a couple of cute moments.  Wolverine's cameo was very good. But overall, I was underwhelmed.

2. kin, I'd like to know your thoughts of Kingdom Come, once you've had a chance to digest.

Cameo? What?
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Traveler

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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #98 on: June 01, 2012, 09:02:57 AM »
Cameo? What?

I'm not remembering that either. Give me a hint and I'll watch for it next time I see it.  ;D
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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #99 on: June 01, 2012, 09:04:20 AM »
1. saw the Avengers this past weekend.  Meh.  If I'd not heard all the rave reviews, it would have exceeded my expectations...

Although this was not the case for me with this movie, I certainly understand the phenomenon. Many movies (and other experiences, for that matter) are ruined by unrealistic expectations.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #100 on: June 01, 2012, 09:05:59 AM »
1. saw the Avengers this past weekend.  Meh.  If I'd not heard all the rave reviews, it would have exceeded my expectations.  But because of the rave reviews, it fell egregiously short.  It was not terrible and there were a couple of cute moments.  Wolverine's cameo was very good. But overall, I was underwhelmed.

2. kin, I'd like to know your thoughts of Kingdom Come, once you've had a chance to digest.

Cameo? What?


Spoiler in white text.  click and drag to highlight:

when Xavier and Erik were recruiting mutants, they went into a bar.  The barely got to say "I'm Charles Xavier..." before Logan replied with "Go fuck yourselves!" They rushed right out.  One of the better scenes in the film. 

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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #101 on: June 01, 2012, 09:18:46 AM »
1. saw the Avengers this past weekend.  Meh.  If I'd not heard all the rave reviews, it would have exceeded my expectations.  But because of the rave reviews, it fell egregiously short.  It was not terrible and there were a couple of cute moments.  Wolverine's cameo was very good. But overall, I was underwhelmed.

2. kin, I'd like to know your thoughts of Kingdom Come, once you've had a chance to digest.

Cameo? What?


Spoiler in white text.  click and drag to highlight:

You're on dope.  That was in "X-Men: First Class" last year.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #102 on: June 01, 2012, 09:23:30 AM »
You're on dope.  That was in "X-Men: First Class" last year.

Oh jeeze.. I'm not on dope but maybe I should start. 

I saw avengers on monday and on tuesday I had Xmen from netflix.  I thought they were both meh and got it mixed up in my post.  Sorry. 

I have to go find a drug dealer now.
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Offline Traveler

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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #103 on: June 01, 2012, 09:24:28 AM »
You're on dope.  That was in "X-Men: First Class" last year.

Whew. I thought I was nuts for not remembering a scene like that. Since I didn't see "X-Men..." there's a reason I didn't see the scene.  ;D
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #104 on: June 01, 2012, 09:35:10 AM »
You're on dope.  That was in "X-Men: First Class" last year.

Oh jeeze.. I'm not on dope but maybe I should start. 

I saw avengers on monday and on tuesday I had Xmen from netflix.  I thought they were both meh and got it mixed up in my post.  Sorry. 

I have to go find a drug dealer now.

OK, if you watched them both back to back like that, then it's understandable.  Maybe we can use you as a supplemental video for "The Amazing Color Changing Card Trick".
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline screwtape

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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #105 on: June 08, 2012, 08:19:20 AM »
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #106 on: June 08, 2012, 04:11:29 PM »
I thought it was sad when Spock died.  :)
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Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #107 on: June 08, 2012, 04:25:49 PM »
Well, I'm not trying to start a flame war, but I didn't like DKSB.  Started out good, but I think it just went to crap at the end.  I liked Frank Miller in the 1980's, but not so much now. 

I really have enjoyed all of Ed Brubaker's Capt. America run. 

Anyone here ever read Alan Moore's Supreme: Story of the Year GN? 

It's basically an alternative version of Superman w/o paying the rights. 

I loved it. 

I also loved the final Superman story Moore did with Curt Swan before the 1980's Superman reboot. 

OK, that's enough random thoughts on comics from me for now.

Offline Traveler

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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #108 on: June 08, 2012, 04:31:07 PM »
Well, I'm not trying to start a flame war, but I didn't like DKSB.  Started out good, but I think it just went to crap at the end.  I liked Frank Miller in the 1980's, but not so much now...

Is DKSB something about Dark Knight? Comic book or movie? I just watched "Batman Begins" and I was NOT impressed. At all. Too much talking, not enough action. I didn't CARE about Bruce Wayne and his nemesis. Neither one had any passion whatsoever. And the whole monastery (or whatever it was) up in the mountains was FAR too contrived. A few good moments in it, and I LOVE the car. But basically a yawner. It doesn't make me the slightest bit interested in seeing any more of the Dark Knight stuff.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #109 on: June 08, 2012, 04:32:33 PM »
It's a comic book.

And the sequel to "Batman Begins" is a lot better.
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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #110 on: June 08, 2012, 04:33:59 PM »
...And the sequel to "Batman Begins" is a lot better.

Thanks, maybe I'll borrow it from a friend.
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Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #111 on: June 08, 2012, 04:41:15 PM »
Is DKSB something about Dark Knight? Comic book or movie? I just watched "Batman Begins" and I was NOT impressed. At all. Too much talking, not enough action. I didn't CARE about Bruce Wayne and his nemesis. Neither one had any passion whatsoever. And the whole monastery (or whatever it was) up in the mountains was FAR too contrived. A few good moments in it, and I LOVE the car. But basically a yawner. It doesn't make me the slightest bit interested in seeing any more of the Dark Knight stuff.

There was Dark Knight graphic novel in the 1980's that was good.

But the 2 Christopher Nolan Batman movies, Batman Begins and Dark Knight, I hated. 

Boring, superserious.  I actually view the films as a parody of the superserious super-'dark' post 1985 Batman, as well as the superserious Batman fans. 

I didn't give a rip about Chris Bale as the hero.  Either villain could have killed his whiney self-pitying cracker ass and I'd have been OK with it. 

Offline Azdgari

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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #112 on: June 08, 2012, 04:48:45 PM »
^^  Hey, I enjoyed it without caring about the Batman character, too!  The Joker made it interesting enough.  The first one didn't have an entertaining villain, so it lost on both ends.
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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #113 on: June 08, 2012, 04:57:15 PM »
I just looked up the one with the Joker and I did see that. The only memorable thing was the Joker, and I find him creepy enough that I'm not willing to watch it again just for him.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #114 on: June 08, 2012, 05:03:41 PM »
I just watched "Batman Begins" and I was NOT impressed. At all. Too much talking, not enough action. I didn't CARE about Bruce Wayne and his nemesis. Neither one had any passion whatsoever. And the whole monastery (or whatever it was) up in the mountains was FAR too contrived. A few good moments in it, and I LOVE the car. But basically a yawner. It doesn't make me the slightest bit interested in seeing any more of the Dark Knight stuff.

Gotta disagree with the assessments of Batman Begins. I found the way they writers placed a back story into the movie a necessary ingrediant in making the audience connect more with not only the Batman charactor, but the whole Batman mythos. I found the movie to be well written and well thought out. I can agree that the action scenes were nowhere near as good as those of the sequel (The Dark Knight), but for what the movie was apparantly intended to do, they were not necessary. Remember, this movie was an introduction to Batman for a new generation of Batman movie watchers intended to be just a tip of the iceberg. To me, it accomplished that pretty well. Personally, I think a lot of CGI, action scenes, and explosions (I call the Michael Bay-isms) added to most movies is all icing and no cake done to appease short attention spanned audiences that can't appreciate the value and importance of well thought out storylines.

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Re: The Avengers
« Reply #115 on: June 08, 2012, 05:11:56 PM »
Well, I agree with you about too much CGI and explosions taking away from a film. But it still boils down to the fact that I didn't care about the protagonists. That pretty much destroys any reason for me to see a film. But, to each his/her own. :)
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