Author Topic: The OTF (for JST):  (Read 4805 times)

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Offline Traveler

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #116 on: May 15, 2012, 10:32:47 AM »
...I found some other watch tower material published in the 1920s claiming that a black child who turned to god slowly turned 'white' as he became more pure.

O.M.G. How stupid can people get???
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #117 on: May 15, 2012, 12:38:07 PM »
You can continue to badmouth me with your words, but you're only adding to the evidence that the Bible is true.

"For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride],

And I present you as my evidence this is true.  I'll take being an idiot over that any day.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #118 on: May 15, 2012, 12:49:57 PM »
You can continue to badmouth me with your words, but you're only adding to the evidence that the Bible is true.

"For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride],

And I present you as my evidence this is true.  I'll take being an idiot over that any day.

What has anyone done to you except ask you to support your own claims?
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Offline Alzael

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #119 on: May 15, 2012, 12:59:26 PM »
And I present you as my evidence this is true.  I'll take being an idiot over that any day.

You do realize how much of that applies to you, right?
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

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Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #120 on: May 15, 2012, 01:04:04 PM »
You can continue to badmouth me with your words, but you're only adding to the evidence that the Bible is true.

"For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride],

And I present you as my evidence this is true.  I'll take being an idiot over that any day.
The Bible also says that believers (i.e. YOU) can move mountains with a sheer act of will, like some kind of super Jedi. How many mountains have you moved today, JST? Is that statement in the Bible true or false? Or is it just one of those "metaphorical" passages? Please, enlighten us with your divinely gifted wisdom.

Also, there's really no predictive element in what you posted. People will act like people. You don't need a divine revelation to figure that out. I would further state that the things you mentioned above apply just as equally to the faithful as to the faithless, and perhaps in some cases even more so, particularly when the Bible orders people to act in such a manner.

And as far as being disobedient to parents, how is that sinful? Quite a few parents are clueless idiots and child abusers. Should a child be obedient to those parents? Should a 5 year old mentally challenged child be obedient to a mother who sells him into sexual slavery in order to get crack money? My answer would be no, yours would apparently be yes. The only conceivable reason that this child would have to be obedient is to avoid further/more severe wickedness (although I am struggling to think what could be more evil than that). There's nothing moral about that, but that shouldn't come as a surprise, as it is God's will (as well as yours, apparently).
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline velkyn

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #121 on: May 15, 2012, 01:27:21 PM »
You can continue to badmouth me with your words, but you're only adding to the evidence that the Bible is true.

"For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride],

And I present you as my evidence this is true.  I'll take being an idiot over that any day.

jst, again you come up with the excuse that any theist would use.  Of course, your supposedly magical book will say that anyone who dares not believe it are such things and that they will be harmed for daring not believing in its nonsense.   There were people disbelieving in your religion for the last two millenia plus and golly, the "last days" are no more seen now than then, despite theists trying to cling to such "prophecies" as being true.   it's a shame that so many god botherers have to get their pleasure from their little sadistic fantasies about how those who dare show them wrong will be punished.  It's rather like a elderly dying mad scientist who is sure that someday they can "I'll show them, I'll show them all!"  when nothing will happen.

It's also lovely to see you post such stuff since it only amounts to personal attacks that have no basis in reality e.g. more lies and false witnessing.  I don’t see that I love money any more than any god botherer.  Since you have yet to show evidence for any god much less your version, I can’t be a blasphemer.  I am quite thankful for things that people do for me and give me.  I was obedient to my parents and now that I’m an adult, I respect them.  I am quite loyal to those who deserve it.  I have lots of natural affection, just ask my husband.  I will agree with people if they have evidence.  I do not slander, but indeed it seems that you do (though in this context, "libel" would be more appropriate  :)).  I have plenty of self-control.  I am indeed fierce e.g. Having or displaying an intense or ferocious aggressiveness. (of a feeling, emotion, or action) Showing a heartfelt and powerful intensity.  I find it quite a good thing when it comes to people who try to lie to me and force me to obey them.

I support goodness and don’t agree with the theist lie that only goodness comes from one of their thousands of gods nor that anything that those gods approve of or do is to be blindly considered “good”.  I have never betrayed anyone, nor am I headstrong.  I am quite happy with what I am but not stupid about it so, yep, even pride fails as does “boastful” aka self assuming and “haughty”.  Oh yes, and I love myself too and happy to do so.  No need to love an invisible imaginary god.  I also love my husband, my family, my pets, my friends, etc.

Now could there be atheists, agnostics and non-believers in your particular god who are such things as the bible says? Yep, and it still doesn’t make your religious myths true or you any less of an idiot.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 02:01:32 PM by velkyn »
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #122 on: May 15, 2012, 01:53:30 PM »
You can continue to badmouth me with your words, but you're only adding to the evidence that the Bible is true.

"For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride],

And I present you as my evidence this is true.  I'll take being an idiot over that any day.
you are describing the typical right wing Christian politician in America.......boo hoo hoo
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Offline eye over you

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #123 on: May 15, 2012, 02:54:19 PM »
You can continue to badmouth me with your words, but you're only adding to the evidence that the Bible is true.

"For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride],

And I present you as my evidence this is true.  I'll take being an idiot over that any day.

     You should get together with everybody in your new forum and pray for WWGHA. Maybe if enough people pray hard enough you can save a few atheist from a date with The Horned One in the lake of fire.

     Ask yourself....What would Jesus do???        Good luck.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #124 on: May 15, 2012, 03:11:39 PM »
You can continue to badmouth me with your words, but you're only adding to the evidence that the Bible is true.

"For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride],

And I present you as my evidence this is true.  I'll take being an idiot over that any day.


jwb, that verse and verses like it were put in the bible because early xians and jews faced ridicule, just like you, and this made them feel better about their ridiculous beliefs.  It anticipated that people will rightly think those beliefs are stupid and it preemptively calls them names and dismisses them, as if it were prophecy.  Ooo, spooky!  They guessed stupid ideas would be ridiculed. 

Seriously, do you think magical, supernatural powers are needed for that?


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Offline caveat_imperator

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #125 on: May 15, 2012, 07:20:17 PM »
*preaching*

That still doesn't look like an answer to Alzael's question.
You can't prove a negative of an existence postulate.

Offline kin hell

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #126 on: May 15, 2012, 07:24:23 PM »
You know what?  Actually nevermind.  I've recieved an invitation to a different forum where I'm told things are more civil.  I am going there.

Goodbye to you all.

Maybe there is something to the resurrection story after all.

Either you are going, or you are staying, only, if you are going, do not expect people not to comment unfavourably on you running away.
It is a very very typical theist retreat when they are asked to give a substantial "reason" for their claims, instead of just "feelings".

Jst, what I gave you was a thought tool.
Take it with you, and try to be honest with it, instead of being slaved to the emotional investment prison.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #127 on: May 15, 2012, 07:55:19 PM »
You can continue to badmouth me with your words, but you're only adding to the evidence that the Bible is true.

"For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride],

And I present you as my evidence this is true.  I'll take being an idiot over that any day.

Oh sweet!  I copy/pasted most of Timothy into my own book: "Jdawg70 is Awesomesauce".

Would that therefore qualify as more evidence that "Jdawg70 is Awesomesauce" is true?

Good luck with the being an idiot thing.  I've been one for a while; surprisingly, it's possible to function in society as one.  I will say, however, that it is kind of poor form to willfully be an idiot.  Might want to rethink that one.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #128 on: May 15, 2012, 08:51:29 PM »
Jst

I was just looking at how many posts you've generated in one month. If I had generated posts at the same rate, I would have written almost 26,000, instead of my 3300 or so. Hence there is no way for me or many of the others to keep up with your prodigious output. There are a lot of people here. I can't spend all my time reading what one person said when there is that much.

You might give some thought to quality over quantity. It helps not to hurry. Many of us have spent several hours putting together one post. Give that method some thought. And try to stay away from doing the things that so many have told you are fruitless and irritating. It should be possible to avoid such things.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online Add Homonym

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #129 on: May 16, 2012, 12:42:24 AM »
JST, here is some more science to strengthen your belief



After watching it, remind yourself that God likes to hand around in the Temple and smell the smell of burning animals.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #130 on: May 16, 2012, 02:22:10 AM »
You can continue to badmouth me with your words, but you're only adding to the evidence that the Bible is true.

"For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride],

And I present you as my evidence this is true.  I'll take being an idiot over that any day.


"And it says in the Book of Anfauglir, that those who believe in Christ will whine, and dodge, and refuse to present evidence, and eventually leave with a snide comment from their chosen Holy Book."

And guess what?  I present YOU as my evidence this is true!  Clearly whatever I write in the Book of Anfauglir will be true......

And it also says in the Book of Anfauglir, "there is no god".  Since we've already established that what is written there is true, obviously that means that there IS no god.

But I doubt you will be able to understand the point I'm making - so have a good time wherever you are going.  Its a much easier life when nobody challenges you about your beliefs - but are you sure that's what you believe your god would want you to do?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline gonegolfing

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #131 on: May 16, 2012, 07:53:56 AM »
You can continue to badmouth me with your words, but you're only adding to the evidence that the Bible is true.

"For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride],

And I present you as my evidence this is true.  I'll take being an idiot over that any day.

I thought you were leaving ?

Quote
You know what?  Actually nevermind.  I've received an invitation to a different forum where I'm told things are more civil.  I am going there.

Goodbye to you all.


Not that I want you to, but for goodness sakes man make up your mind !

As well, you know that a biblical scolding has zero effect around here so why the useless scriptural diatribe ?

You just don't get it...we're not ridiculing you--we're ridiculing your christian beliefs

Yeah yeah yeah, I was sarcastic and called you Einstein...big fucking whoopi..call me whatever you want......oh wait !! you just did in that above scripture ! 

Seriously, we know why you're here. And it's not for discussion with an open mind. It's to argue with your subjective baseless opinions and to try and put points in your christian win column.

It's been shown to you by some very sincere and honest people, that your christian religion is nothing but a corrupted version of earlier pagan and eastern religious myths and legends. There's nothing new in that religion except it's central character who is in fact a virgin birth knock off of earlier similar characters from more than likely the Egyptian and Hindu myths.

You have refused to even consider the strength of that argument and instead have dogmatically plugged your ears and covered your eyes and stuck to your own obviously flawed religious convictions.

And you wonder why we're at the point we are ? You wonder why we're being determined with you ? You wonder why you feel angered by our arguments ?

Well, It's not our fault--it is that way because you're being crushed by the weight of your own faulty arguments and thinkling. The walls are closing in on you, and as you've told us, your heading for the door......That's up to you, but what a sad ending.
"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #132 on: May 16, 2012, 12:47:40 PM »
Quote
You just don't get it...we're not ridiculing you--we're ridiculing your christian beliefs


Calling me an idiot over and over and over and over, or saying that I'm a sicko that should have child protective services called on me is not ridiculing my beliefs.

Quote
Yeah yeah yeah, I was sarcastic and called you Einstein...big fucking whoopi..call me whatever you want......oh wait !! you just did in that above scripture !

Saying it once is one thing.  Saying it over and over and over and over and over and over is another.  Yes I know "sticks and stone" but after a while it gets tiresome.  I realize that other people's words do not define me and in fact only define the one speaking but like I said, after a while it becomes ridiculous.


You guys don't really see the picture.  My problem is not with all of you.  It is with ONE of you that is allowed to do anything he wishes with impunity and the moderator that allows him to do so and also any that support or reinforce this behavior.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #133 on: May 16, 2012, 12:50:16 PM »
Quote
You just don't get it...we're not ridiculing you--we're ridiculing your christian beliefs


Calling me an idiot over and over and over and over, or saying that I'm a sicko that should have child protective services called on me is not ridiculing my beliefs.

No one called you an idiot over and over.

And I suggest calling CPS because you made an analogy of biblical slavery to rearing your children, which is horrific.


Quote
Quote
Yeah yeah yeah, I was sarcastic and called you Einstein...big fucking whoopi..call me whatever you want......oh wait !! you just did in that above scripture !

Saying it once is one thing.  Saying it over and over and over and over and over and over is another.  Yes I know "sticks and stone" but after a while it gets tiresome.  I realize that other people's words do not define me and in fact only define the one speaking but like I said, after a while it becomes ridiculous.

You guys don't really see the picture.  My problem is not with all of you.  It is with ONE of you that is allowed to do anything he wishes with impunity and the moderator that allows him to do so and also any that support or reinforce this behavior.

No one did anything to you that you did not deserve JST, you have behaved dishonestly and have been insultingly condescending on too many occasions to count.  You get what you give.

Perhaps if you were not so emotionally insecure about your religious beliefs you wouldn't feel so threatened when someone asks you to support your claims.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #134 on: May 16, 2012, 12:52:42 PM »
Why don't you examine the first post of this thread so you can see I am not the only one to hold this opinion about your behavior.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Alzael

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #135 on: May 16, 2012, 12:53:11 PM »
Quote
You just don't get it...we're not ridiculing you--we're ridiculing your christian beliefs


Calling me an idiot over and over and over and over, or saying that I'm a sicko that should have child protective services called on me is not ridiculing my beliefs.

Quote
Yeah yeah yeah, I was sarcastic and called you Einstein...big fucking whoopi..call me whatever you want......oh wait !! you just did in that above scripture !

Saying it once is one thing.  Saying it over and over and over and over and over and over is another.  Yes I know "sticks and stone" but after a while it gets tiresome.  I realize that other people's words do not define me and in fact only define the one speaking but like I said, after a while it becomes ridiculous.


You guys don't really see the picture.  My problem is not with all of you.  It is with ONE of you that is allowed to do anything he wishes with impunity and the moderator that allows him to do so and also any that support or reinforce this behavior.

Note how again, it's everyone elses fault but yours. Despite all of the people who have repeatedly voiced to you why they find your behaviour objectionable. It's not that you're behaving badly. It's someone is picking on you and everyone else is just enabling him.

Whine, whine, whine. Yet still no response to what you were required to respond to.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #136 on: May 16, 2012, 12:55:45 PM »
Why don't you examine the first post of this thread so you can see I am not the only one to hold this opinion about your behavior.

I will not address anything else unless this issue is settled. 

Like I told Omen, why don't you examine the first post and see that I'm not the only one to hold this opinion.  This opinion is also not unique among theists.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #137 on: May 16, 2012, 12:57:05 PM »
Quote
Note how again, it's everyone elses fault but yours. Despite all of the people who have repeatedly voiced to you why they find your behaviour objectionable

And when do they voice this?  ONLY when Omen is involved.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #138 on: May 16, 2012, 01:02:00 PM »
Quote
Note how again, it's everyone elses fault but yours. Despite all of the people who have repeatedly voiced to you why they find your behaviour objectionable

And when do they voice this?  ONLY when Omen is involved.

Others have told you the same, outside of experiences with me.

Why are you ignoring this?

Clearly, you're behavior is only at fault here.  Plus, you can't show that I'm actually doing anything to you except asking you to support your claims.  You become increasingly hostile as a result.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #139 on: May 16, 2012, 01:06:33 PM »
Find me a problem I've had that you have not been involved in Omen.

Quote from: Grimm
First, the theist appears and introduces themselves.  The community leaps on them like a herd of starving lions spotting the last gazelle in the Serengeti with a dogpile of arguments that no one could hope to address (no matter their quality).  Invariably, one or two people in the community take more than an adversarial stance, becoming antagonistic.  As the theist defends their position, they are inevitably accused of proselytizing or not addressing argument.  Eventually, they are banned for breaking one or another of the forum rules, and the community seems to quietly smirk about the fact.

Since this was addressed primarily to me I assume the "one or two people" is referring to you.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #140 on: May 16, 2012, 01:09:50 PM »
Find me a problem I've had that you have not been involved in Omen.

lol.. I already know you have a problem with being honest.  The issue is that you don't like to be asked to support your claims.

That is not a 'problem' for me, that is a 'problem' for you.


Quote
Quote
First, the theist appears and introduces themselves.  The community leaps on them like a herd of starving lions spotting the last gazelle in the Serengeti with a dogpile of arguments that no one could hope to address (no matter their quality).  Invariably, one or two people in the community take more than an adversarial stance, becoming antagonistic.  As the theist defends their position, they are inevitably accused of proselytizing or not addressing argument.  Eventually, they are banned for breaking one or another of the forum rules, and the community seems to quietly smirk about the fact.

Since this was addressed primarily to me I assume the "one or two people" is referring to you.

Then they are accused rightly.

Where have you ever supported claims that you've made?

Grimm's second paragraph says exactly what I've been telling you about your own behavior:

I will be the first to say that most of our theistic visitors, sadly, deserve this sort of treatment.  The come here and are deliberately insulting, deliberately provoking, even hateful in what they say.   However, we tend to project these rather abusive people onto the theists that come here simply ignorant of how often their arguments have been addressed or who come here in an effort to earnestly reach out to people they're trying to understand, but simply cannot (at least so far).  Think how alien atheism is to most believers, how impossible a proposition it is. 

This describes your behavior so far.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Omen

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #141 on: May 16, 2012, 01:10:58 PM »
It is really quite simple.

Why are you threatened by being asked to support the claims that you make?  Why do you respond with hostility?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #142 on: May 16, 2012, 01:14:31 PM »
I received a PM today.  It says this:

Quote
<snip>

Why don't you think on that for a while.  But that's not the best one I've gotten.

Quote
<snip>
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 01:23:12 PM by Alzael »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #143 on: May 16, 2012, 01:16:55 PM »
Quote
I trust that, from the few atheists you met here who did not leave a bad taste in your mouth, you have not concluded that all atheists are egotistical, conceited, and condescending.

And the answer is no I have not concluded that.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Re: The OTF (for JST):
« Reply #144 on: May 16, 2012, 01:18:35 PM »
I received a PM today.  It says this:

Quote
<snip>

Why don't you think on that for a while.  But that's not the best one I've gotten.

Quote
<nsip>

Where have I ever called you a name?

Why are you not concerned with calling people names, dismissing them out of hand for not agreeing with you, or refusing to participate in honest discussion?

Beyond repeatedly confronting you on claims you have not supported and asking you to do so, what have I done?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 01:21:47 PM by Alzael »
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me