Author Topic: Objective Morality  (Read 9142 times)

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #145 on: May 13, 2012, 09:27:56 PM »
So then you don't see how this.

Many of these truths and prophesies wouldn't be understood until they began to be fulfilled.  Much knowledge, secular and biblical, was prophesied to reach a crescendo during the "Last Days".   And his is proving to be true.  So while some of the men, but not all, may have been Christian they were still largely living in the dark, scripturally speaking.


Is a claim that needs to be backed up?


Oh you mean with scriptural reference?  Sure I can do that.  I just honestly don't think it will matter.  If I post scriptures will you believe them?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Alzael

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #146 on: May 13, 2012, 09:32:27 PM »
Oh you mean with scriptural reference?  Sure I can do that.  I just honestly don't think it will matter.  If I post scriptures will you believe them?

No. Can you actually back them up. As I asked "I have to ask what part of being required to back up your claims do you not get?"

You make claims about things as if they are real. Can you actually back them up? Scriptural references are not evidence that the claim is true. They're evidence that the bible says it is true.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #147 on: May 13, 2012, 09:39:07 PM »
Quote
No. Can you actually back them up. As I asked "I have to ask what part of being required to back up your claims do you not get?"

So you want me to quote scripture but even if I do you won't believe them?

I can show the Bible says.  Mankind has set up it's own governments.

I can show what the Bible said would be the result.  Failure after failure and much suffering.

I can look through history and see failure after failure and much suffering and can show it to others.

I can then marvel that you still won't belive the scripture is true.  But in what way have I not backed up my claim?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Alzael

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #148 on: May 13, 2012, 09:50:30 PM »
So you want me to quote scripture but even if I do you won't believe them?

I can show the Bible says.  Mankind has set up it's own governments.

I can show what the Bible said would be the result.  Failure after failure and much suffering.

I can look through history and see failure after failure and much suffering and can show it to others.

I can then marvel that you still won't belive the scripture is true.  But in what way have I not backed up my claim?

There is no evidence provided. It's as simple as that.

Let's break this down line by line.

"I can show the Bible says.  Mankind has set up it's own governments."

This is not evidence of anything except that the bible said something. Nothing in here shows the claim to be true.

"I can show what the Bible said would be the result.  Failure after failure and much suffering."

Again, same as above. It's a claim made by the bible. Nothing in this sentence shows the claim to be true.

"I can look through history and see failure after failure and much suffering and can show it to others."

This is, again, a claim. You say that you can look through history and see these things but you do not actually do that. You simply say that you can.

This does not support your initial claim. You've simply made another claim you now have to support.

 Where are these examples of suffering that were talked about in the bible, and most importantly how do you know that these instances you're citing are what the bible meant? If the bible only says that there will be suffering then the passage in the bible is vague enough to mean anything. And how do you separate this claim from contrary claims made by other religions?

All you have done is make one claim after another. Nothing in this provides any evidence to show that you are telling the truth.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #149 on: May 13, 2012, 09:51:53 PM »
Okay give me a few moments.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #150 on: May 13, 2012, 09:56:32 PM »
I can then marvel that you still won't belive the scripture is true.  But in what way have I not backed up my claim?

You have arbitrary criterion. There is always failure after failure. Israel's constant captivity/occupation was failure. Where there is any failure, you can claim that, even if it's not really true. Also, anybody can claim that a current government is not biblical. Even the Pharisees were saying that of the Sadducees, but the Sadducees were adhering to it more than the Pharisees.

Can you show me where the Ottoman empire fits into the Daniel prophecy?
Can you explain why God would tell Daniel's cult to 'lock it up' until the end of time, even knowing that they would reveal it, as soon as they faked it up? Seems like the cult was like you, and bet that it was the end of the world in 160BC, and got it wrong.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #151 on: May 13, 2012, 10:01:50 PM »
While Jst, is compiling, you can have at 'er again, Omen and crew. Although I see Add already ignored that.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

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Offline Omen

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #152 on: May 13, 2012, 10:13:36 PM »
Quote from: Omen
Where are these democratic laws in the bible?

There are none.

YOU ALREADY SAID THERE WERE.

My claim is that the men that wrote the constitution did so in light of the Bible.  My claim is that the U.S. congress use to publish Bibles.  This means they tried to mix the laws of the Bible with the laws of man, such as all those laws describing a democracy.

ARE YOU NOW TAKING BACK YOUR PREVIOUS CLAIM?

Quote
My argument ..

Changes from post to post, becoming increasingly erratic as you are constantly questioned on the incongruousness of each one.

Quote
is that Jehovah cannot be blamed for any failure of the U.S. government at it's people because this is not Jehovah's Kingdom.

This is a tautology, your defining it in such an equivocating manner that there never can be any such example.  Which brings us back to the fact of a god delivering laws to be followed, knowing full well that those laws would never be followed as your qualification makes it impossible to achieve in any shape or form.

Which brings us back to your beliefs being contradictory, your god being an idiot, and you being incapable of supporting your position.


Quote
Well I guess by definition I put my children into slavery.  It's a quite common occurance around there that they want to borrow money and they promise they "work it off"

You're an absolute lying scumbag.

Do you even know what the laws are regarding slavery in the bible?

When was the last time you beat your child to a bloody pulp, unconcerned as to whether you would be held responsible as long as they didn't die in a couple days?

Exodus 21:20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

How do you expect to be taken seriously when you make such an egregious and disingenuous analogy using your children as examples to the self described horrors biblical slavery?

Do we need to find out where you live and call child protective services immediately you sicko?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 10:16:00 PM by Omen »
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #153 on: May 13, 2012, 10:21:23 PM »
^^^^ You could have been a little more subtle about it. You were right, but it could have been a bit more subtle.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #154 on: May 13, 2012, 10:33:25 PM »
Okay here is my first claim.  The Bible says Satan is the ruler of this world and all it's kingdoms.  Now here is my evidence.


Significantly, nowhere does the Bible say that either Jesus Christ or his Father are the real rulers of this world.

Quote
"So now I have told YOU before it occurs, in order that, when it does occur, YOU may believe. I shall not speak much with YOU anymore, for the ruler of the world is coming. (John 14:29,30)

"If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through." (2 Corinthians 4:4)

"Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. (John 12:31)

"because I am going to the Father and YOU will behold me no longer; then concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged." (John 16:11)

"We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one." (1 John 5:19)

So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth;

Now consider this.

"Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, and he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.”  (Mathew 4:1)

Jesus did not object saying, "The world is not your to give."  This is because, as I've shown above, Satan is the ruler of this world and all it's kingdoms.  Now whether this is history or just a story showing a point doesn't matter.  To further illustrate it would not have been a real temptation for Satan to offer something he couldn't deliver on.  Even if it's a story, Jesus is shown to have been truly tempted.  And again, Jesus did not deny Satan's ownership.

Now have I sufficiently shown that the Bible teaches that Satan, and not Jehovah is ruling this world?  I don't care if it's true or not.  I just want to establish that the Bible does in fact say this.

And I will stop here for now before continuing since it's about bedtime.




« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 10:35:25 PM by Jstwebbrowsing »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #155 on: May 13, 2012, 10:36:27 PM »
Where is the evidence that Satan is ruling the world?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #156 on: May 13, 2012, 10:44:15 PM »
Where is the evidence that Satan is ruling the world?

I cannot prove that point yet.  I'm just giving evidence that the Bible does say that.

Do you agree that the Bible says Satan is the ruler of this world?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #157 on: May 13, 2012, 11:01:11 PM »
Where is the evidence that Satan is ruling the world?

I cannot prove that point yet.

This is the only thing that matters.

Quote
I'm just giving evidence that the Bible does say that.

Do you agree that the Bible says Satan is the ruler of this world?

No, the references are all done as if Satan's influences only become apparent once Jesus is gone, not before.  It is incessantly delivered as a narrative related to the passion mythos[1].  Plus, we have plenty of other situations in biblical myth where god is ordering nations of people as well as interacting with Satan, even giving permission to Satan to do as he wishes.

The reference to the ruler of the world, in context of the period, could be a reference to a  jewish/roman state and ruler.  This is also expressed by other christian apologist/philosophers:

http://bible.cc/john/14-30.htm

The prince of this world - ??????, of this, is omitted by ABDEGHKLMS, Mt. BH, one hundred others; both the Syriac, later Persic, all the Arabic, and several of the primitive fathers. I rather think the omission of the pronoun makes the sense more general; for, had he said This world, the words might have been restrained to the Jewish state, or to the Roman government. But who is the person called here the prince of the world?

2. Others think that our Lord refers to the Roman government, the ruler of the world, who, by its deputy, Pilate, was going to judge him, but who should find nothing (??????? ?????, which is the reading found in some excellent MSS. and versions, and is followed by almost all the primitive fathers), as a just cause of death in him - nothing in the whole of his conduct which was in the least reprehensible; and this indeed Pilate witnessed in the most solemn manner. See John 18:38; John 19:4, John 19:12; see also Luke 23:4, etc., and Matthew 27:24.

The way you're trying to stretch the meaning is to encompass all governments, past and present.  Just like you arbitrarily inserted the rationale with regards to god giving laws to his chosen people, as if they did not immediately have laws based within those mitzvoh[2].  It returns to questioning whether or not god is a moron, incapable of seeing the contradictions of his own actions when he should know that satan rules all of the world as you try to rationalize.  This also brings up another kind of theological problem, where christians claim and treat aspects of the bible and theology derived from it differently from those people who originally claimed the old testament their own.  A good example of this is the King of Tyre, where Christians treat it ( and most references to the adversary as 'satan' as one and the same ) when Judaism does not.
 1. Your reasoning also requires assumptions regarding the soundness of the passion narrative as well as christian ideas of fulfilled prophecy, which are thoroughly rejected by myself.  I've challenged you on that before too, but you've left that abandoned as well.
 2. Another issue is the fact that the Torah itself wasn't collectively put together unto much later in the 1st millenia BCE, Deuteronomy in particular when the Book of the Law is found in the temple walls under King Josiah ( In Kings ).  This is an issue because the formation of the torah occurs outside the claims of biblical historicity, which never actually occurred.  Hence, there were no nation of people to lead on the exodus, to give them laws, to have governments for a satan to mess anything up etc.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 11:29:44 PM by Omen »
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #158 on: May 13, 2012, 11:23:15 PM »
To put this very simply, the Bible itself cannot serve as evidence.  You have to find things in the real world which back up what the Bible says.  For example, if you intend to show that Satan is the ruler of this world and all its kingdoms (or countries, whatever), you need to be able to show evidence which demonstrates that this is the case.  The Bible itself cannot serve as that evidence because it makes the claim to begin with.  So you need to provide other evidence which shows that is the case.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #159 on: May 13, 2012, 11:25:00 PM »
This actually goes back to some horrendously pointless debates about how strong Satan actually is. If he is really strong, and owns everything, so it's him that is doing the healings in churches, and giving Christians a warm fuzzy feeling when they think J is in their hearts. If he is the ruler, then how does God get any say in anything? How do we know the Bible is not written by him?

The only way this theology can work, is if God somehow magically got a respite from Satan, during Jesus times, and sent his son to do miracles, and then the truce ended. Christians would then have to make their way in a world of fakery, with only 'faith' that the bible had been constructed properly, during a time of non-truce. Or do these truces end and start arbitrarily, during periods of Satan's weakness? Not explained.

Christian theology can't accommodate a God who is equal power with Satan. It is not explained, and doesn't work. It's just lame theorising, by the people who wrote the NT.

Occupation of Israel: look down the bottom at the picture. Makes a joke of Daniel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Jerusalem
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #160 on: May 14, 2012, 01:26:34 AM »
Let's take murder for example.  I realize there are exceptions to this rule, but if none of these exceptions are true then the objectivity of the law remains and it is unchangable.

Wow. It's just like that argument that says that if you just ignore all of the Bible's contradictions, then none are left.
In case you haven't noticed, I'm saying your argument is stupid. If I had pi, for example, which is ~3.1415926535 and "removed" everything after the period, then it becomes 3, which the Bible says it is. But it's not 3. It's not even 3.1. It's not even the number I wrote.
If you say that, in some situations, murder isn't wrong, then it's not objectively wrong. It's subjectively wrong, depending on the circumstances.

And to be more accurate about the how "God acts" let me be more precise.  How God revealed himself in the past is different from the way the reveals himself in the present.  Back then he thundered and spoke from atop mountains.  Today he does not.

Id est: He changed.
Also, kudos on not writing "he" with a capital H. Your grammar is improving, young Skywalker.

You mean by saying "God" instead of Jehovah?

By saying "God" with a capital g (which is what "Allah" means) instead of "my god" or any of YHWH's names (YHWH, Yahweh, Jealous, Jehova, et cetera).

Christians have the duty today of preaching the "Good new of the Kingdom".  They have the duty to lead moral lives.  They have the duty to keep their congregation pure by removing the "evil man from among you".  They have the duty to teach their children.  They have the duty to go out of their way to help their neighbor.

So they can presume to speak for YHWH. Thanks for showing that your beliefs are contradictory.

Anything beyond what Jehovah has instructed Christians to do is from the "evil one".

Is it?

There are no instructions in the "new covenant" for Christians to kill non-believers.

What the hell is the "new covenant"? Is that one of those magical secret things you get when you become a JW?

If there is ever a "holy war" faught with Christians and Muslims it will not really be Christians that are being faught against.  It will be Muslims versus those that believe the Bible but have gone beyond what is written.  The same with the witch killers.  They went beyond what is written as part of the "new covenant".

NoTrueScostsmanTM, eh? Very poor argument.
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #161 on: May 14, 2012, 04:26:12 AM »
What the hell is the "new covenant"? Is that one of those magical secret things you get when you become a JW?

The 'new covenant' is when you couldn't possibly put new fabric onto an old coat, or new wine into an old wineskin, or divorce a wife and marry another (Luke 16:18)
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Online Graybeard

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #162 on: May 14, 2012, 07:45:44 AM »
Okay here is my first claim.  The Bible says Satan is the ruler of this world and all it's kingdoms.  Now here is my evidence.[Jesus in the Wilderness snipped]
Now have I sufficiently shown that the Bible teaches that Satan, and not Jehovah is ruling this world?
No, no you haven't.

Even Biblical logic (!) has failed you.

The Devil tells lies - you know that from Genesis. So the Devil was lying about being able to give the world. Jesus (who is part of the Godhead) knew this (as you should have done) and therefore was not even  tempted in the slightest.
Quote
I don't care if it's true or not.  I just want to establish that the Bible does in fact say this.
Well, whether you believe it or not, you failed.

Quote
And I will stop here for now before continuing since it's about bedtime.
I am praying that God does not smite you during your sleep for being so dim.

It is obvious that the Temptation in the Wilderness proves that the Devil does NOT rule the earth. He's just a liar.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #163 on: May 14, 2012, 07:47:00 AM »
"Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, and he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.”  (Mathew 4:1)

Jesus did not object saying, "The world is not your to give.".....

Interesting point you want to make.  So if the world does indeed currently belong to Satan, by what moral right does Yahweh or Jesus have for later coming along and taking it by force?  I presume this is another of your "its one rule for Yahweh, another rule for everyone else"?

Then again, it may be that you are saying that Satan never really owned the earth, it was Yahweh's all along.....in which case everything Satan has done on Earth is with the approval of Yahweh.  You can't have it both ways, either the earth is Satan's, or the earth is Yahweh's - which are you going with?

And if Yahweh knew all along that - one day - he was coming back to take the earth by force (regardless of the rightness of that action), then Christ's refusal of Satan's "offer" means nothing.  If a man says to me today "I'll give you X, if you do Y", and I know that tomorrow I will get "X" without having to do Y, then there is nothing at all noble about refusing the deal I was offered.  Indeed, it becomes completely self-serving and callous, the sort of behaviour we would regard as disgusting from any slum landlord in this world.....and we're back to subjective morality again..
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #164 on: May 14, 2012, 09:52:40 AM »

Now have I sufficiently shown that the Bible teaches that Satan, and not Jehovah is ruling this world?  I don't care if it's true or not.  I just want to establish that the Bible does in fact say this.


No. You haven't even begun to do so yet. First off Pastor Mike Blume would disagree with you. He says it is Jesus that rules.

"    Ephesians 1:20-22 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come : And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Notice in the above scripture all the past tense terms used. God "raised" Jesus from the dead. He "wrought" in Christ. He "hath" put all enemies under His feet. He "gave" Him to be the head. None of these thing are going to occur. They have already occured. "


More to the point.

I don't care if it's true or not.

This is what you being asked to provide. Evidence of truth. Because you keeping making claims of truth. Whether the bible says it is largely irrelevant. The bible says pretty much anything you want it to say. You are being asked to back up your constant claims that these things are real.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #165 on: May 14, 2012, 03:52:15 PM »
May I make one quick point here? I am going to give Jst the benefit of the doubt and assume that he really does not understand that he is missing the point.

According to nearly every religious belief system, people should expect certain things-- a different life compared to non-religious at the very least. (If life is not different, what is the point of being religious?)  But the facts show that the main difference is that the religious are worse off than the non-religious. Countries that rely less on religion and belief in any gods like Sweden and Japan, are nicer places for people to live than very religious places like Mexico and India. 

Jst points out that the US is a very religious country and is quite well-off. Overall, this is true, making the US an outlier. But when you look closer, the facts still hold. In the most religious states of the US, like the bible belt, people are worse off than in the more secular regions of the northeast and northwest.

In almost every way we can measure, life expectancy, education levels, divorce rates, crime rates, wages and unemployment, teen pregnancy, porn consumption, and even natural disasters the more religious Americans (people who report more church attendance, reliance on prayer, reading the bible and literal belief in the bible, etc) suffer more than the less religious Americans, who rely more on modern ideas and science to solve problems.

The remark about letting people starve for being religious is telling, but not only because of the snark value. Jst is admitting that the religious countries and regions rely on the non-religious for help, and get it because the secular people are not only more successful, they are also caring and generous to others. Even when the others have different beliefs.

In fact, the really religious states like Texas (where people don't like to pay for government services) are subsidized by the less religious states like Massachusetts (where people pay higher taxes). We in the secular world would be even better off if we could jettison the religious places and let them rely on their gods. But we would never cut them off. We aren't like that.

Quote from: Omen
This study repeatedly demonstrates that religious beliefs correlates with poor societal health by examining ever secular democracy in the world.

Oh well let's just let them starve to death because they are religious.  Let's buy perfume instead.

Quote
If Satan controlled the world's governments and laws, then why do we find the poorest performing countries in terms of social health with the highest religious representation in the populations?  Why aren't the countries with a less religious populace performing worse?

Because this is where he is most needed.  It's sort of like the saying, "You'll never see an athiest in a foxhole."

The world does not look like what we would expect if there was god running things. Unless god is not who we think. Or else why would rational science help people more than prayer and church attendance?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #166 on: May 14, 2012, 04:12:37 PM »
Quote
No. Can you actually back them up. As I asked "I have to ask what part of being required to back up your claims do you not get?"

So you want me to quote scripture but even if I do you won't believe them?

I can show the Bible says.  Mankind has set up it's own governments.

I can show what the Bible said would be the result.  Failure after failure and much suffering.

I can look through history and see failure after failure and much suffering and can show it to others.

I can then marvel that you still won't belive the scripture is true.  But in what way have I not backed up my claim?
Your system is supposed to work for the poor,but it fails to do so.......its just a bunch of fat Americans it works for.....where is God for the poor?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #167 on: May 14, 2012, 04:18:37 PM »
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"If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through." (2 Corinthians 4:4)

"We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one." (1 John 5:19)

So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth;

You still have not addressed these.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #168 on: May 14, 2012, 04:22:59 PM »
Quote from: nogodsforme
The world does not look like what we would expect if there was god running things. Unless god is not who we think. Or else why would rational science help people more than prayer and church attendance?

That is my entire argument here.  You are right.  It does not.  However the world does look like what we would expect if Satan were running things.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #169 on: May 14, 2012, 04:43:03 PM »
Quote from: nogodsforme
The world does not look like what we would expect if there was god running things. Unless god is not who we think. Or else why would rational science help people more than prayer and church attendance?

That is my entire argument here.  You are right.  It does not.  However the world does look like what we would expect if Satan were running things.

Wrong Jst.  There are a great number of wonderful things that happen in this world, and a great number of awful things that happen too.  What this provides evidence for is the fact that there is not an evil deity or good deity running the show, but no deity at all. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline HAL

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #170 on: May 14, 2012, 04:48:59 PM »
However the world does look like what we would expect if Satan were running things.

Well I'm glad that Satan was interested in helping us go to the Moon. Thanks Satan!

Offline Omen

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #171 on: May 14, 2012, 04:49:43 PM »
Quote
"If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through." (2 Corinthians 4:4)

"We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one." (1 John 5:19)

So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth;

You still have not addressed these.

You've had several posts that addressed yours, can you respond to them?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Alzael

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #172 on: May 14, 2012, 04:56:50 PM »
That is my entire argument here.  You are right.  It does not.  However the world does look like what we would expect if Satan were running things.

How so? If Satan were running things and wanted to tempt us the world should be great. It should be enough of a paradise that we would fall down and follow Satan instead of God.

You see how it works when you make up things without evidence?
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

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Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: Objective Morality
« Reply #173 on: May 14, 2012, 05:00:45 PM »
Wrong Jst.  There are a great number of wonderful things that happen in this world, and a great number of awful things that happen too.  What this provides evidence for is the fact that there is not an evil deity or good deity running the show, but no deity at all.

Particularly when you take into account that prayer and random chance yield exactly the same results. Indeed, in one study, those who knew they were being prayed for fared worse than those who received no prayer at all.
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).