Author Topic: For Theist: Genesis 1:1, why anyone bother interpreting this as if a god exists?  (Read 1621 times)

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Offline Omen

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For Theist: Genesis 1:1, why would anyone bother interpreting this as if a god exists?

The question speaks for itself and fundamentally addresses the root of all problems with theist like ILOVEYOU and Jstwebbrowsing who demonstrate a really inexcusable level of dishonesty with regards to the merits of their own claims.  They are fundamentally unequipped to argue in the affirmative of their own assertions, resorting instead to incredibly disingenuous equivocating and presuppositional nonsense.

If neither one of you ( or any theist for that matter ) can actually address this question openly and sincerely, then why should anyone here taken you seriously for any claim you make ever?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

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You may consider this as my argument and we can discuss this if you like.

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Can you explain what is supposed to be relevant in this one and a half hour video, in your own words?

Note in the rules:

Discussion threads are for discussion of the topic at hand, not simply advertising one's opinions. As such, forum members are expected to back up assertions they make, and not engage in stonewalling, shifting goalposts, changing the subject, or employing similar tactics to avoid addressing points raised against their arguments.

How and where am I supposed to discern what asinine thing in this video do you think is a qualified argument for your own beliefs being true?

Where in the video does it address my question in any shape or form?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

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Because since this man is a scientist and a professed Christian he is much more capable of presenting the argument than I.  His argument is that all the evidence is pointing to his conclusion that God created the heavens and the earth.

It directly answers your question.  I also believe the other professor does a good job of presenting his own argument so this is not a case of one "destroys" the other.

Furthermore, if this debate cannot be settled at the highest levels, by those most fit to answer the questions, then what hope and I have?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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The entire thing is a debate about what does the scientific evidence mean.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Because since this man is a scientist and a professed Christian he is much more capable of presenting the argument than I.  His argument is that all the evidence is pointing to his conclusion that God created the heavens and the earth.

WHERE does he explain HOW this evidnece points to a god?

HOW are you not avoiding responsibility for your own claims by deferring it to an unexplained pleaded qualification, vaguely referred to a video that offers no explanation that you can yourself put into words?

Quote
It directly answers your question.  I also believe the other professor does a good job of presenting his own argument so this is not a case of one "destroys" the other.

If it answers my question, then where does it answer my question?

Quote
Furthermore, if this debate cannot be settled at the highest levels, by those most fit to answer the questions, then what hope and I have?

You haven't yet presented any arguments to support your assertion, nor have you cited anything in this video.  You're equivocating with red herrings, which is against the rules of the forum.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Omen

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The entire thing is a debate about what does the scientific evidence mean.

Where?

What is the argument?

Can you even present anything in your own words that addresses exactly what I'm asking for?

Why do you suddenly have no recall at all when it comes to explaining yourself based on a video you claim has what I'm asking for?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

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Quote
WHERE does he explain HOW this evidnece points to a god?

He does so throughout the entire debate.  He shows, in light of scientific discovery, why he concludes there is a creator.  He is just more fit than I to discuss scientific discovery.  Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

Plus if you listen to him then that will save me a tremendous amount of time that I am not willing to waste on this forum any longer.

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline HAL

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JStweb,

It's OK to post a video to supplement your point, but it's not OK for the video to make your point for you, especially if it's as long as that video.

Summarize the video and make your point now.

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So it is in no way possible for any two of us to discuss this debate?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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So it is in no way possible for any two of us to discuss this debate?

You're not discussing the debate, you're just posting a link without explanation and without citation of anything in it.  You offer no explanation as to how it answers my questions, make no references using time stamps to what you want to discuss that references my questions, and exert 0 effort to explain yourself.

Your are incredibly dishonest.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Omen

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Quote
WHERE does he explain HOW this evidnece points to a god?

He does so throughout the entire debate.  He shows, in light of scientific discovery, why he concludes there is a creator.  He is just more fit than I to discuss scientific discovery.  Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

If you can't explain it and you can't cite it, then how do you know he delivered any kind of argument?

Why do I have to beg you to be honest?

Why do your religious beliefs motivate you to this level of outright lying?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline HAL

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So it is in no way possible for any two of us to discuss this debate?

Sure it is - start the discussion.

Did you watch it? Do you remember anything about it? If you watched it then tell Omen what points it makes that favor your position.

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Isn't there a difference in us discussing it and me telling him what is said?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Isn't there a difference in us discussing it and me telling him what is said?

Why do you incessantly avoid direct questions that require you to support your claims?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

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For the same reason you avoid what is a better argument than I can give.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline 12 Monkeys

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What did you get out of the video....and where (and what) are the specific points he made that point to creationism?....
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Omen

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For the same reason you avoid what is a better argument than I can give.

What am I avoiding?!?

Where have you cited anything that I can even reference directly, without ambiguity on your part?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline HAL

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Isn't there a difference in us discussing it and me telling him what is said?

Yes.

We're interested in what you believe. You discuss it by telling us how what was said in the video justifies what it is you believe in.

Can you start off that way?

Offline 12 Monkeys

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For the same reason you avoid what is a better argument than I can give.
what a suprise,a fat white guy belives in God
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Graybeard

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You may consider this as my argument and we can discuss this if you like.

[Youtube video removed]
Does anyone in the video offer firm proof as to why the creator must be the Judeo-Christian God and not some other god?
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline Graybeard

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Isn't there a difference in us discussing it and me telling him what is said?
Maybe, maybe not. However your request that  the membership sit through an hour+ to discuss something that you say you cannot express in a paragraph seems unreasonable. This forum is mainly based upon the written word.

Perhaps you wish to summarise it - bullet points perhaps? Then we can discuss them in order and in separate posts.
GB Mod
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline Graybeard

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At ~11:00 on, the theist states that the Universe looks designed, so it must be (implying that the only person that could have done it was Yahweh.) This has been thoroughly debunked in "The Blind Watchmaker." and also in religious history.

Yahweh was originally a son of El and part of the Elohim, the council of the Gods, ruled by the father god, El. The creation story before the creation story in Genesis was that the father of El created the world and left (IIRC) El then "formed it". (Either that or El found Earth floating around in space and "formed" it - i.e. put life on it, water/air/etc/) Only later does Yahweh claim (and others claim on his behalf) that He himself actually made (created) it. (Read more here: http://atheozoa.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/el-elohim-yahweh.html )

No one else need now watch the video. If anyone wants to support Intelligent Design, could they please see their local science teacher or flick through a few of the posts on the board.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 06:48:34 PM by Graybeard »
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline HAL

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Thanks Graybeard.

You know, it's very disappointing that we get the forum cluttered with posts by people who don't seem to have a clue how to even attempt to convince other members why they believe the way they do, in their own words.

I just want to know if Jstweb believes the way he does because some person in a video said something pleasing to his ears, or did he try to justify what the person said himself? If he watched the video why doesn't he say something about it? What does it contain that he thinks would be of value to the conversation? Maybe if he said a few things about it others would watch it. I guess that's too much trouble So it goes on WWGHA.

Offline stuffin

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@ JSTweb guy

Please watch the video, take some notes and report back what you think (in the video) are the strongest points for you concerning the existence of god.

That is the very minimum you can do for your god.

I'd cut him if he stands, and I'd shoot him if he'd run
 Yes I'd kill him with my Bible and my razor and my gun

Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime.
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Offline Quesi

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Jst - may I say something to you respectfully?  I know that you have told us that you do not have a lot of education, and that you were initially intimidated by the vocabulary and the kinds of arguments presented by members of this forum.

But that didn't scare you away.  Good for you.

I have not watched this video.  I believe that you probably don't have as much experience as many of us do with summarizing someone else's concepts.  I think that you are a smart guy.  But I think, and correct me if I am wrong, that you are a little intimidated by educated people who you admire, and that you are a little afraid to take their concepts and put them into your own words. 

And you know if you do, there are folks here who are going to rip those words and concepts apart.  But you are still here.  So why don't you give it a try. 

Graybeard gave a very dismissive summary of the video.  I'm guessing you don't agree with the summary.  Take a stab at it.  Watch the video a few times if you have to.  And then put the concepts that you embrace, into your own words. 


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Jst - may I say something to you respectfully?  I know that you have told us that you do not have a lot of education, and that you were initially intimidated by the vocabulary and the kinds of arguments presented by members of this forum.

But that didn't scare you away.  Good for you.

I have not watched this video.  I believe that you probably don't have as much experience as many of us do with summarizing someone else's concepts.  I think that you are a smart guy.  But I think, and correct me if I am wrong, that you are a little intimidated by educated people who you admire, and that you are a little afraid to take their concepts and put them into your own words. 

And you know if you do, there are folks here who are going to rip those words and concepts apart.  But you are still here.  So why don't you give it a try. 

Graybeard gave a very dismissive summary of the video.  I'm guessing you don't agree with the summary.  Take a stab at it.  Watch the video a few times if you have to.  And then put the concepts that you embrace, into your own words.

Yes you are largely correct.  And just so you know you are not one of "them" when I am "pointing fingers".  But you seem to be the exception and not the rule.  I appreciate your tact.  Or maybe it's just the few "loud" ones that are problematic for me.  And maybe their "loudness" is what makes it seem like there are so many.

At any rate, thank you to those that are not like "them".  Maybe you would even make a good neighbor.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Quesi

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Maybe you would even make a good neighbor.

I'm an excellent neighbor.  :)

Now go ahead and give the summary a try. 

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Maybe you would even make a good neighbor.

I'm an excellent neighbor.  :)

Now go ahead and give the summary a try.

I am father to four energetic boys.  I make a terrible neighbor.    &)

I dunno if I will try or not.  The only reason I have stuck it out this long is in hopes that at least some are open to new ideas about Christianity.

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10