Author Topic: Question for Christian Theists about Hell  (Read 2122 times)

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Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2012, 05:08:02 PM »
Yes but I also believe Mathew 7:6

And what, may I ask, leads you to believe that I am a "dog" and a "swine"?

You must have had some reason for joining this forum. If not to pose questions or answer them, was it simply to annoy atheists?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 05:09:36 PM by GodlessHeathen »
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2012, 05:10:43 PM »
Let's say you are a cop and you arrive on the scene of a neighborhood brawl.  You question everyone involved and everyone has a different story.  Do you then conclude there is no truth and the fight never occured in the first place?  Or do you conclude it is impossible to get to the truth of the matter?

This is your argument, in a nut shell, to theists about Bible interpretation.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2012, 05:15:01 PM »
Let's say you are a cop and you arrive on the scene of a neighborhood brawl.  You question everyone involved and everyone has a different story.  Do you then conclude there is no truth and the fight never occured in the first place?  Or do you conclude it is impossible to get to the truth of the matter?

This is your argument, in a nut shell, to theists about Bible interpretation.

The big difference between your analogy and the Bible believing theists make is that the fight would have had EYE WITNESSES. No Christian today can claim to have witnessed the events said to have occurred 2,000+ years ago.
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

Offline Omen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2012, 05:15:17 PM »
Let's say you are a cop and you arrive on the scene of a neighborhood brawl.

False analogy.

Nothing in the bible is established as actually occurring.  There is no 'scene' to arrive to or 'event' to reference.  Plus, on the contrary we have plenty of evidence that contradicts biblical claims and you have provided no evidence that supports biblical claims.  When asked you're the crack addict that runs away screaming that it really happened.  We are the guy with cell phone pics.
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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2012, 05:15:54 PM »
Quote
And what, may I ask, leads you to believe that I am a "dog" and a "swine"?

Not you specifically.  I don't recall talking to you before.  But my conclusion is based on the fact that anything I say is trampled underfoot and then I myself, as a person, am attacked.

And I came to see if what I was taught is true.  I was taught that to do so is a complete waste of time.  Once again the Bible is demonstrating it's truthfulness to me.  You would think I would eventually quite questioning it.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2012, 05:16:24 PM »
Nothing in the bible is established as actually occurring.  There is no 'scene' to arrive to or 'event' to reference.

Exactly! Well said!
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2012, 05:17:41 PM »
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False analogy.

Incorrect.  Whether what the Bible says is actually true or not is irrelavant to this argument.  What is relevant is that the Bible does teach something and what does it teach.  Because all Christians cannot agree on what it teaches does not mean it doesn't teach anything at all.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2012, 05:17:46 PM »
Quote
And what, may I ask, leads you to believe that I am a "dog" and a "swine"?

Not you specifically.  I don't recall talking to you before.  But my conclusion is based on the fact that anything I say is trampled underfoot and then I myself, as a person, am attacked.

Where were you attacked?

Stop playing the victim card, you're just whining because people are asking you to support your claims.  You make a claim, you are asked to support claim, you immediately whine about not being able to support your claim.

Quote
And I came to see if what I was taught is true.  I was taught that to do so is a complete waste of time.  Once again the Bible is demonstrating it's truthfulness to me.  You would think I would eventually quite questioning it.

This is an insular, bigoted, and xenophobic like mentality.  It is the same kind of mental state we expect out of racist and cult members, having assumed everyone is against them or awful based on nothing more than what they wanted to believe originally.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2012, 05:17:53 PM »
Let's say you are a cop and you arrive on the scene of a neighborhood brawl.  You question everyone involved and everyone has a different story.  Do you then conclude there is no truth and the fight never occured in the first place?  Or do you conclude it is impossible to get to the truth of the matter?

This is your argument, in a nut shell, to theists about Bible interpretation.

There would be evidence of a fight (broken furniture, bruises on the people involved, blood on the ground, etc). So even if everyone has a different story there is objective evidence that we can point to that tells us what happened. With this we can separate the ones telling the truth from the ones that are lying or wrong.

If there were no blood, no broken furniture, etc. then it is reasonable to conclude that there was neve a fight. Because there is no evidence that one took place. Just a bunch of unverifiable accounts.

This is what is being asked of you. You are being asked to provide evidence that allows us to verify your claims anymore than those of the others.
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Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2012, 05:19:39 PM »
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And what, may I ask, leads you to believe that I am a "dog" and a "swine"?

Not you specifically.  I don't recall talking to you before.  But my conclusion is based on the fact that anything I say is trampled underfoot and then I myself, as a person, am attacked.

Then don't use the false analogy of Matthew 7:6. As far as I know, I have never spoken to you on here before nor have I trampled anything underfoot in this thread. I simply asked you to expound upon your position.

And I came to see if what I was taught is true.  I was taught that to do so is a complete waste of time.  Once again the Bible is demonstrating it's truthfulness to me.  You would think I would eventually quite questioning it.

I think you will find that I take a very mild approach on this forum; I only get forceful when others are forceful with me or when they continue to make the same baseless arguments over and over again without answering any of my questions.

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

Offline Omen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2012, 05:20:02 PM »
Quote
False analogy.

Incorrect.  Whether what the Bible says is actually true or not is irrelavant to this argument.

They are INCREDIBLY relevant to this argument, because we have no reason to turn page 1 Genesis 1:1 and interpret it to mean ANYTHING.

Quote
What is relevant is that the Bible does teach something and what does it teach. 

You can't claim it does 'teach' anything with building a supportive argument to make that claim.  You have never delivered an argument that is capable of supporting this claim.  When asked or demanded of you, you immediately begin crying and whining that people are being too mean to you.

Quote
Because all Christians cannot agree on what it teaches does not mean it doesn't teach anything at all.

Yes it does.  If it can't be understood to mean anything cohesive, then it is a sure bet that it doesn't mean anything cohesive.  Scholars already know this, because many of the various books of the bible were delivered from competing theological concepts.  Hence, the contradictions and differing theological notions.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2012, 05:21:44 PM »
Does the Bible teach a burning hell?  That is the question.  Because all Christians cannot agree does not mean the Bible does not contain an answer.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2012, 05:23:17 PM »
Does the Bible teach a burning hell?  That is the question.  Because all Christians cannot agree does not mean the Bible does not contain an answer.

Yes it does.

If the bible teaches both A and B, then how could we ever conclude otherwise?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2012, 05:25:20 PM »
Does the Bible teach a burning hell?  That is the question.  Because all Christians cannot agree does not mean the Bible does not contain an answer.

What, in your opinion, does this mean?

And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched (Matthew 9:45-46).
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2012, 05:26:15 PM »
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If the bible teaches both A and B, then how could we ever conclude otherwise?

And there is your answer.  I do not think it teaches both.  And no amount of talking on my part, or any theist, is going to even get you to consider the possiblity that you are wrong.  Hence, to attempt to do so is a complete waste of time.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2012, 05:28:42 PM »
Quote
If the bible teaches both A and B, then how could we ever conclude otherwise?

And there is your answer.

Then you agree with me that it doesn't teach anything at all.


 
Quote
I do not think it teaches both.

GREAT, THAT IS A CLAIM.

YOUR NEXT STEP IS TO BUILD A CONSTRUCTIVE LOGICAL ARGUMENT, WITH A VALID INFERENCE AND REFERENCING EXPLANATORY MEANS BY WHICH YOU REACHED THE CONCLUSION THAT YOU DID.

WHY IS THIS SO HARD FOR YOU TO DO?

Quote
  And no amount of talking ..

This is a pleading dismissal, a fallacy.  You're making up excuses for being irresponsible, hatefully blaming us for your own inability to argue for anything you claim.  Not once have you began to make any kind of argument since being on this forum that positively supports the claims that you have made, you've insisted repeatedly that you can... but not once have you.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2012, 05:34:46 PM »
Does the Bible teach a burning hell?  That is the question.  Because all Christians cannot agree does not mean the Bible does not contain an answer.

What, in your opinion, does this mean?

And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched (Matthew 9:45-46).

It is my opinion that one must consider what the Bible says every time it mentions hell before a correct understanding can occur.  The fact that the KJV translates a certain word as "hell" half the time and as "grave" the other half the time caused me to conclude a more in depth study was required.  Maybe you are different.  If so, then there is no need for you to ask the question in the first place.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2012, 05:36:12 PM »
It is my opinion that one must consider

Consider what?

Consider How?

Consider where?

Where is the argument?

Quote
caused me to conclude a more in depth study

What study?

Where?

When?

How?

Where is the argument?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2012, 05:36:24 PM »
Quote
YOUR NEXT STEP IS TO BUILD A CONSTRUCTIVE LOGICAL ARGUMENT, WITH A VALID INFERENCE AND REFERENCING EXPLANATORY MEANS BY WHICH YOU REACHED THE CONCLUSION THAT YOU DID.

WHY IS THIS SO HARD FOR YOU TO DO?

Because the inevitable end will be "well that's according to your magic ring".  So let's just skip everything in the middle and get right to the end.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2012, 05:38:09 PM »
Quote
YOUR NEXT STEP IS TO BUILD A CONSTRUCTIVE LOGICAL ARGUMENT, WITH A VALID INFERENCE AND REFERENCING EXPLANATORY MEANS BY WHICH YOU REACHED THE CONCLUSION THAT YOU DID.

WHY IS THIS SO HARD FOR YOU TO DO?

Because the inevitable end will be "well that's according to your magic ring".  So let's just skip everything in the middle and get right to the end.

That's a pleading dismissal, you're hatefully making excuses by demeaning people here for pointing out that your past fallacious reasoning was in fact fallacious.

If you delivered something better than an argument inseparable from making it up as you go along, then we wouldn't be able to say that.  If you delivered a logical argument, based on a sound inference, that follows congruently from established premises.. then no one can say this.

However.. you've never done this and the few times you've tried involved you lying about science.  You consistently panic and run away the second someone asks you to support anything you claim, you're doing so again now.  Except now you're including the hateful and arrogant dismissals.. as you make excuses for your own inabilities.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2012, 05:39:23 PM »
Does the Bible teach a burning hell?  That is the question.  Because all Christians cannot agree does not mean the Bible does not contain an answer.

What, in your opinion, does this mean?

And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched (Matthew 9:45-46).

It is my opinion that one must consider what the Bible says every time it mentions hell before a correct understanding can occur.  The fact that the KJV translates a certain word as "hell" half the time and as "grave" the other half the time caused me to conclude a more in depth study was required.  Maybe you are different.  If so, then there is no need for you to ask the question in the first place.

Technically, the Bible never mentions hell at all. It mentions gehenna, hades, tartaroo, and a nameless lake that burns forever with fire and brimstone.

Again, all I asked you to do is to state your position, and you have refused again and again to do so. We have not even got to the assertion stage, let alone providing evidence for the assertion. I was a fundamentalist Christian for 18 years, an evangelist for about 5. I assure you, I have studied this issue extensively. I know what my position is on what the Bible teaches concerning the matter; I'm asking, what is yours?
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2012, 05:42:41 PM »
Quote
Technically, the Bible never mentions hell at all. It mentions gehenna, hades, tartaroo, and a nameless lake that burns forever with fire and brimstone.

Then I will address my answers to you only.  First can you tell me where it mentions tartaroo?  I've only seen mention of sheol, hades, and gehenna, and Lake of Fire in Revelation.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #51 on: May 11, 2012, 05:43:34 PM »
Or is tartaroo=sheol?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2012, 05:47:09 PM »
First can you tell me where it mentions tartaroo?  I've only seen mention of sheol, hades, and gehenna, and Lake of Fire in Revelation.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (Greek tartaroo), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.

It literally means "tartar encrusting the sides of casks." In Greek mythology, it refers to a place in the underworld.
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2012, 05:48:54 PM »
Or is tartaroo=sheol?

It is probably synonymous with gehenna, "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" as compared with Matthew 24:41.
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2012, 05:49:06 PM »
Then you are aware the Hebrew word Sheol occurs many times and is translated as both grave and hell by some Bible versions?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2012, 05:51:25 PM »
Then you are aware the Hebrew word Sheol occurs many times and is translated as both grave and hell by some Bible versions?

Yes, Sheol is the term used in the Old Testament that is translated as hell in the KJV. It literally means, "the grave." Not a place of eternal torment but the place where the physically dead are buried.
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2012, 05:53:03 PM »
Then you are aware the Hebrew word Sheol occurs many times and is translated as both grave and hell by some Bible versions?

Yes, Sheol is the term used in the Old Testament that is translated as hell in the KJV. It literally means, "the grave." Not a place of eternal torment but the place where the physically dead are buried.

I am in complete agreement with that.  And what of Hades?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #57 on: May 11, 2012, 06:01:12 PM »
I am in complete agreement with that.  And what of Hades?

In Greek, "the abode of the dead," AKA "the underworld." In the Greek Septuagint, the Hebrew, Sheol is translated as Hades.

It is also translated as Hades when it is quoted in Acts 2:27 of the Greek New Testament.

It appears a total of 11 times in the New Testament:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G86&t=kjv

It is not synonymous with the Lake of Fire in Revelation, because it is cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14).
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).