Author Topic: Question for Christian Theists about Hell  (Read 1935 times)

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Offline GodlessHeathen

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Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« on: May 11, 2012, 09:33:59 AM »
So will God lovingly and mercifully cast every unbeliever into a lake the burns forever with fire and brimstone?
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2012, 10:17:47 AM »
So will God lovingly and mercifully cast every unbeliever into a lake the burns forever with fire and brimstone?


While we're waiting ..... ;)


According to jesus, yes.

According to logical reasoning, no.

God's infinite mercy will cancel out his infinite justice, and so he'll just stand there looking at you dumbfounded and not knowing what to do  :?

Obviously the writers of the bible didn't have the intellectual capacity to see this stymie coming  :o

 
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2012, 10:44:13 AM »
You know, I've heard theists say that people decide to become atheists because we fear hell.  Probably theists have said it on this site as well, but nobody comes to mind atm.

I am just baffled by a god who would be so cruel as to send such a huge percentage of humanity into eternal suffering.  I mean, between the sinners and the non-believers, there isn't going to be anyone in heaven who doesn't have some loved ones in hell. 

And how could any good person enjoy an eternity in heaven, as an honored guest of a deity who condemned his/her loved ones to eternal suffering?  How would any good person rationalize this in their minds, and actually enjoy eternity while trying not to think about  mom or grandma or their first born, swimming around in an eternal lake of fire?  That would be your reward for a life well-lived? 

I would be more afraid of becoming that cold-hearted person in heaven who blocked out thoughts of their loved ones in hell.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2012, 10:51:58 AM »
as petty, childish and violent as the fiery hell is as a godly punishment, I find Lewis' one presented in The Great Divorce: http://ebonmusings.org/atheism/books/greatdivorce.html  to be even a worse reflection on a supposedly "loving" god.  Lewis seemed not to like the too human violence like so many other Chistians so he ginned up another version.

as for what Christians think, some do indeed relish the thought of people who have dared tell them that they aren't special snowflakes being tortured forever.  It shows their immaturity too.   
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2012, 10:55:58 AM »
You know, I've heard theists say that people decide to become atheists because we fear hell.

Which doesn't make a lick of sense, either.  That's kind of like saying that you decide to become a surgeon because you hate the sight of blood.

Quote
And how could any good person enjoy an eternity in heaven, as an honored guest of a deity who condemned his/her loved ones to eternal suffering?

Oh, that's easy: when you die, Yahweh alters your soul and mentality so that you no longer have any compassion for anyone who isn't saved.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Divorce

Which, to me, would be worse than anything that hell itself could have to offer.  I find the thought of having no compassion for my fellow human beings absolutely horrifying.
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Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2012, 11:23:58 AM »
I've decided that there are two types of theists. The ones who use the instructions in the bible to help guide them as they try to lead useful, productive and saintly sorts of lives. And as long as they aren't trying to use the bible to make public policy and such, I'm fine with that type.

The other ones are the folks who have their whole future planned out, as inhabitants of heaven, and the present isn't really all that important, except for the part where they have to make today miserable for everyone because the righteous like to do things that. They know where they're going, and their superiority complex, combined with their general obnoxiousness and their propensity for deciding that I'm going to hell sort of ruins everything.

Though logic isn't involved, a messed up type of logical thinking is. Obviously if they are going to tout heaven as a place you can go only if you are saved, there has to be an alternative destination for those who don't make the grade. And Detroit wasn't foreseen in the bible. So they came up with hell.

In their black and white world, the two destinations just had to be polar opposites.

I have been told by a few theists there there isn't a hell, that if you don't go to heaven then you are just separate from god for all of eternity (apparently thats a bad thing) and stuff like that. But those folks are no fun. It is hard to poke fun at the blasé.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2012, 11:32:08 AM »
Not all Christians believe the Bible teaches a burning hell.  But I'm sure their "magic decoder ring" is worthless to you so I will not even attempt to explain it.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2012, 11:33:16 AM »
Not all Christians believe the Bible teaches a burning hell.  But I'm sure their "magic decoder ring" is worthless to you so I will not even attempt to explain it.

So why does the bible present multiple versions of many contradictory theological concepts?
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2012, 12:04:16 PM »
Not all Christians believe the Bible teaches a burning hell.  But I'm sure their "magic decoder ring" is worthless to you so I will not even attempt to explain it.

so you think to speak for Chrsitians if you aren't one?   &)  And Jst, we know this. Christians can't agree on most things about their religion. I ask you to please show that any of them can show their particular beliefs to be the accurate ones.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2012, 12:12:00 PM »
Quote
Christians can't agree on most things about their religion.

This does not make them all equally wrong.

Quote
I ask you to please show that any of them can show their particular beliefs to be the accurate ones.

Accurate according to what objective definition?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2012, 12:15:15 PM »
Quote
Christians can't agree on most things about their religion.

This does not make them all equally wrong.

It does, the inability to rationally define a means by which your own beliefs are understood does negate the possibility of them being true.

Quote
Quote
I ask you to please show that any of them can show their particular beliefs to be the accurate ones.

Accurate according to what objective definition?

Logically coherent and derived from an evidential basis.

You know, that thing you can't be bothered to do despite being asked multiple times to do so.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2012, 12:37:29 PM »
Quote
Christians can't agree on most things about their religion.

This does not make them all equally wrong.
sigh.  again, jst, show that any of them are right. any religion at all, I'll not just subject Christianity to your ridiculous claims.  and show that those you claim are wrong are indeed that.  One more time, you are to show evidence, not anedotes, not myths, not claims of personal revelation.  All religions have those too and theists are all sure that those who they don't agree with can't use those things for evidence either; they only want themselves to be able to use such nonsense as evidence.

and accurate as to this definition: free from error especially as the result of care; conforming exactly to truth or to a standard. (merriam-webster.com)  I want you to show me whose claim of knowing what this god really wants is the right one. Who out of all of the claimants to be the true believers isn't wrong?  This god had no problem showing his favor and displeasure "once upon a time". 

I'm waiting, jst. 

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Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2012, 03:46:03 PM »
You know, I've heard theists say that people decide to become atheists because we fear hell.  Probably theists have said it on this site as well, but nobody comes to mind atm.

That one is new to me, although I have heard a lot of other "reasons" theists give as to why people become atheists. Doesn't seem to make any kind of logical sense to become an atheist if one fears hell. But then I have rarely ever heard a theist make logical sense.

And how could any good person enjoy an eternity in heaven, as an honored guest of a deity who condemned his/her loved ones to eternal suffering?  How would any good person rationalize this in their minds, and actually enjoy eternity while trying not to think about  mom or grandma or their first born, swimming around in an eternal lake of fire?  That would be your reward for a life well-lived? 

Now this argument, I have posed to theists a time or two. Usually their answer is something along the lines of "we do not remember those people when we get to heaven." A very convenient position to take but one with absolutely no basis other than their wish for it to be true.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 04:13:09 PM by GodlessHeathen »
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2012, 03:49:24 PM »
Not all Christians believe the Bible teaches a burning hell.  But I'm sure their "magic decoder ring" is worthless to you so I will not even attempt to explain it.

Not all but most. I know about the annihilation schools of thought. And the universalist perspective. But the average run of Christian does indeed believe in eternal damnation for the non-believer, which makes the question a relevant one.
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2012, 04:05:24 PM »
They why ask such questions if you already know the answer and are not open to any others?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2012, 04:06:07 PM »
And how could any good person enjoy an eternity in heaven, as an honored guest of a deity who condemned his/her loved ones to eternal suffering?  How would any good person rationalize this in their minds, and actually enjoy eternity while trying not to think about  mom or grandma or their first born, swimming around in an eternal lake of fire?  That would be your reward for a life well-lived? 

I would be more afraid of becoming that cold-hearted person in heaven who blocked out thoughts of their loved ones in hell.

Here's a dandy quote from St. Thomas Aquinas:

“That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell.”

St. Thomas Aquinas is considered one of the great thinkers of the early church. 

(Xians in general are ignorant of the history of their religion and in general take no responsibility for the massive edifice of hatred enshrined within Xianity.  But so long as they bind themselves to concept of the magical holy spirit magically inspiring the founders of the church, they can't touch this kind of stuff.) 

Offline Omen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2012, 04:07:20 PM »
They why ask such questions if you already know the answer and are not open to any others?

Why answer if you know you can't deliver an honest one?

We're not the ones that make up it up as we go along, you are.  Why are you now complaining that you're being called on it?
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2012, 04:08:35 PM »
Answer my question and I will answer yours.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2012, 04:11:18 PM »
They why ask such questions if you already know the answer and are not open to any others?

Who said I wasn't open to others? You did not explain your position. You simply stated that there were alternative views and immediately assumed that we would not be interested in hearing them.
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2012, 04:12:56 PM »
They why ask such questions if you already know the answer and are not open to any others?

Why answer if you know you can't deliver an honest one?

We're not the ones that make up it up as we go along, you are.  Why are you now complaining that you're being called on it?

And here is evidence I am correct.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2012, 04:38:57 PM »
They why ask such questions if you already know the answer and are not open to any others?

Why answer if you know you can't deliver an honest one?

We're not the ones that make up it up as we go along, you are.  Why are you now complaining that you're being called on it?

And here is evidence I am correct.

No, not confirming what you want to believe isn't evidence that you're 'correct'.

The question was asked to theists that obviously believe in a Hell, its a type of argument called a reductio ad absurdum.  It takes an argument or proposition to its logically fallacious conclusion, the question is meant to elicit a response about that faulty conclusion. 

So again:

Why answer if you know you can't deliver an honest one?

We're not the ones that make up it up as we go along, you are.  Why are you now complaining that you're being called on it?

Why are you offended to be asked a question that points out exactly what you're doing?
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2012, 04:42:48 PM »
Because I don't agree with you as to what the Bible teaches does not mean I make it up as I go along. 
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Alzael

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2012, 04:49:23 PM »
Because I don't agree with you as to what the Bible teaches does not mean I make it up as I go along.

No, the fact that you can't prove or even define it does. I've asked you before. How does one tell the difference beween your beliefs and a fantasy?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 04:51:13 PM by Alzael »
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Offline Omen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2012, 04:51:16 PM »
Because I don't agree with you as to what the Bible teaches does not mean I make it up as I go along.

No, you arbitrarily rationalizing in response to contradictions in order to confirm what you want to believe is the evidence of you making it up as you go along.

Your gross inability to support any claim you make through evidential and logical reasoning is the evidence that you are making it up as you go along.

Your arguments, like in the santa clause thread, being capable of being used to argue for anything and everything is the evidence that you are making it up as you go along.

It has nothing to do with disagreement, it has everything to do with you not being able to deliver a coherent bit of reasoning even when dozens of people beg it of you.  You equivocate, you lie, and avoid the burden of proof.. etc.

So again:

Why answer if you know you can't deliver an honest one?

We're not the ones that make up it up as we go along, you are.  Why are you now complaining that you're being called on it?

Why are you offended to be asked a question that points out exactly what you're doing?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2012, 04:54:25 PM »
I am plenty capable of supporting what I say the Bible says is actually in the Bible.  But because I contradict your magic ring then I can't be right.  Right?  So why should anyone bother answering the question?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2012, 04:56:54 PM »
I am plenty capable of supporting what I say the Bible says is actually in the Bible.  But because I contradict your magic ring then I can't be right.  Right?  So why should anyone bother answering the question?

Do you believe 1 Peter 3:15?
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2012, 05:03:36 PM »
Yes but I also believe Mathew 7:6
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2012, 05:06:09 PM »
I am plenty capable of supporting what I say the Bible says is actually in the Bible.

Then go here and begin your argument:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,22596.msg505068.html#msg505068

Quote
  But because I contradict your magic ring then I can't be right.  Right?

Because you can't support your own claims; your claims being inseparable from make believe, mental illness, or the claims of someone else.

Here is a simple diagram:

Christian A makes claim Z about their religion.
Christian B makes claim Y about their religion.
Muslim C makes claim X about their religion.
Asylum-Patient D makes claim W about their religion.
Child E makes claim V about santa clause.
Conman F makes a claim U about used car he's trying to sale.

None of the claims are delivered in a manner to differentiate their validity from the other, none of the claimants offer a reason to be believe, and none of the claimants offer evidence.  Anyone can make shit up at random JST, how do we differentiate your claims from any of the above? Where are you making an argument so support your own claims?

Quote
  So why should anyone bother answering the question?

For christians that believe in hell, they can answer the question and try to answer the logical fallacy presented in the reductio ad absurdum.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Omen

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Re: Question for Christian Theists about Hell
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2012, 05:07:46 PM »
Yes but I also believe Mathew 7:6

So now we're dogs and telling us the word of god is like casting pearls before swine.

Nice.

Why would you ever believe 1 Peter 3:15?  Why Matthew 7:6?

What if muslim C came around and dismissed you and us out of hand based on random Quranic citations?

Why would you not believe him?

Why would we believe either of you mental cases?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me