Author Topic: Is Christianity Evil  (Read 1567 times)

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Is Christianity Evil
« on: May 09, 2012, 02:08:11 PM »
I would like to see some answers to the following questions.  Theists, I would like to hear your answers too.


If a Christian does evil then is Christianity evil?

If an athiest does evil then is athiesm evil?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Tinyal

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2012, 02:16:43 PM »
Can't answer until you define evil, although I suspect the answer is mostly no.

But lots of wiggle room in such a loaded, definition-heavy question.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2012, 02:20:28 PM »
If a white person does evil, are white people evil?  That makes about as much sense as your question about atheists and atheism, since there isn't much in common between atheists aside from the lack of belief in deities.

In other words, you might reconsider the questions you're asking.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2012, 02:21:26 PM »
Can't answer until you define evil, although I suspect the answer is mostly no.

But lots of wiggle room in such a loaded, definition-heavy question.

Well it is hard to define evil without borrowing definitions from a religion.

Let's say torturing a baby and killing it is evil.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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Online Hatter23

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2012, 02:23:26 PM »
I would like to see some answers to the following questions.  Theists, I would like to hear your answers too.


If a Christian does evil then is Christianity evil?

If an athiest does evil then is athiesm evil?

Define evil.

Secondly if the action is "evil" is the component of the aformentioned person used as a reason for that act. Has it been used as a justification for said act time and time again?

Lets just agree the act of setting people on fire(who aren't shooting at you) or keeping them as slaves is "evil"

If atheism is used as a justification for why people have been set on fire by the person doing the act, repeatedly and by multiple different people and circumstances, then you could say atheism is evil, or can be used to support evil, or at the very least cannot be cited as being all good.

If Christianity is used  as a justification for why people have been kept as slaves by the person doing the act, repeatedly and by multiple different people and circumstances, then you could say Christianity is evil, or can be used to support evil, or at the very least cannot be cited as being all good.

Taking this further, reality isn't a black and white as the 8 year old inside of us wants it to be. To use the classic example, Nazism. It united a people, made great upgrades of the infastructure of the country, and furthered rocket science and highway engineering. It also was cited as the justification to set millions of people(even though most were killed in preperation) on fire.

« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 03:35:34 PM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Quesi

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2012, 02:27:51 PM »
I think that evil has been done in the name of Christianity. 

I think that there are Christians who have committed evil acts that had nothing to do with their Christianity. 

I think that there are Atheists who have committed evil acts that had nothing to do with their Atheism. 

I don't think that evil has been done in the name of Atheism.  But I may be wrong. 

Online Aaron123

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2012, 02:28:29 PM »
Well it is hard to define evil without borrowing definitions from a religion.

Let's say torturing a baby and killing it is evil.

Is it "evil" when a human tortures and kill a baby?

Is it "evil" when god tortures and kill a baby?


If it's "yes" for one, but "no" for the other, then you're dealing with double-standards.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2012, 02:33:04 PM »
Jst, maybe instead of going around creating new threads you should put some effort into answering responses and providing the evidence you were requested to provide in previous threads first.
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Offline Traveler

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2012, 02:57:42 PM »
I would like to see some answers to the following questions.  Theists, I would like to hear your answers too.


If a Christian does evil then is Christianity evil?

If an athiest does evil then is athiesm evil?

Of course not. An individual's actions do not reflect directly on an entire group. Now, if the group norm is to do evil, then yes, the group is evil. If the group, in general, approves of that evil, then the group is evil. I think you get the gist.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2012, 03:27:08 PM »
Jst, maybe instead of going around creating new threads you should put some effort into answering responses and providing the evidence you were requested to provide in previous threads first.

Waiting on you.

I will reply to other posters tomorrow.  I want to wait and see what sort of answers there will be.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2012, 03:40:50 PM »
Christianity contains a lot of sadism and IMO the emphasis on heaven and eternal life causes many Christians to minimize the value of real human life on earth. 

The god Christians worship is, by most accounts, cruel, sadistic, authoritarian, vain, petty and a mass murderer.  Christians generally consider their god to perfect, and the source of morality. 

Christians, by virtue of their belief in an invisible sky wizard that can possess humans, have a mechanism for committing many acts, either harmful or beneficial to others, and absolving themselves of any responsibility. 

When you think about it this way, it's a wonder there isn't even more mayhem committed by Christians.

Most of my friends are Christians, and most aren't evil.  Bishop Tutu is a Christian, and I don't think he is evil. 
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 03:51:47 PM by flapdoodle64 »

Offline Alzael

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2012, 03:45:19 PM »
Jst, maybe instead of going around creating new threads you should put some effort into answering responses and providing the evidence you were requested to provide in previous threads first.

Waiting on you.

I will reply to other posters tomorrow.  I want to wait and see what sort of answers there will be.

I wasn't just referring to me. There are a lot of things that you still actual answers to. LArgely due to your habit of responding with questions instead of what you were asked for.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2012, 03:50:51 PM »
Quote
I wasn't just referring to me.

Then there must be something I have missed.  Where are you referring to?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline dloubet

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2012, 02:55:40 AM »
Quote
If a Christian does evil then is Christianity evil?

That depends on if the evil the Christian is doing is necessary to be a Christian.

The only thing necessary to be an atheist is to not believe in any gods. That's not evil.
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2012, 03:13:20 AM »
I would like to see some answers to the following questions.  Theists, I would like to hear your answers too.

If a Christian does evil then is Christianity evil?

If an athiest does evil then is athiesm evil?

You have us at a disadvantage with this loaded question, because there is no way to prove you are a Christian, besides doing this:

[17] And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
[18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


Since no Christian has ever done this, that we can think of, then no Christian can do evil, because there are no true Christians. You know this is true, because any time a Christian does something hideous, he's immediately denounced as not a true Christian, (whether or not he has handled Inland Taipans, and drunk cyanide).

As such, all Christians are actually atheists, whether they like it or not. Since atheism is simply what is left over, from subtracting nothing from atheism, then any judgement upon it must come from people pretending to be theists.

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Offline Alzael

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2012, 04:35:04 AM »
If a Christian does evil then is Christianity evil?

No, Christianity is more than evil enough in it's own right.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2012, 09:38:54 AM »
Let's say torturing a baby and killing it is evil.

I seem to recall this exact same discussion and when the Christian (perhaps you) was told that your god has supposedly done such things per the bible, they didn't like the response.   IMO, evil is pretty well defined causing harm intentionally for selfish reasons.   In that your bible tells stories of exactly this done by your god, its supposed worshippers, etc, then the bible and the religions based on it are indeed evil to my satisfaction.  Christians go out of their way to ignore and to excuse any evidence of such selfish, harmful actions and it's is amusing to watch the acrobatics. 
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Offline Nozzferrahhtoo

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2012, 09:54:36 AM »
If a Christian does evil then is Christianity evil?

If an athiest does evil then is athiesm evil?

As was pointed out by a poster earlier in the thread one would need more information before one could answer this question coherently.

The user suggested checking if atheism or theism were used to justify the act for example. I would like to agree with that but refine it slightly as clearly anyone can use anything as justification. The question is does the justification hold.

To refine it I would put it a slightly different way. Is it possible to adumbrate a causal link between (a)theism and the action in question. By causal I mean does something about one cause the latter… and not as some people try to twist it does one fail in some way to prevent the latter.

People who are atheists and people are are theists are doing “bad” or “evil” things all the time. This does not mean by default that therefore atheism and theism are themselves “bad” or “evil”. The analogy above from another user to a white person being evil making white people evil highlights why.

The question instead is can you adumbrate a causal link from (a)theism to “bad” or “evil” actions.

In the case of atheism this appears to be “no”. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in gods. It has no more possibility of causing evil than not collecting stamps has a possibility of causing you to get a broken arm.

In the case of theism however it is quite easy indeed to adumbrate causal links to very unsavoury results and actions. I can write much on this if you wish but for now I will simply leave hanging the claim that it is very easy to do. Many things about theism lead almost by definition to actions, situations and events that are very much unsavory.

This does not mean of course that theism will in every case, every time, cause the bad things I would list. Clearly it does not. But I think the fact that atheism can not causally lead to evil while theism can does much to answer your question… or at least a better version of your question given the question as it stands currently is pretty poorly worded and quite possibly.... as others have pointed out... willfully loaded.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2012, 10:01:34 AM »

[17] And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
[18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.



Waitaminute. JST has corrected me on this one, in the other thread. This is all childish boasting by Jesus, that Paul does not approve of, because he is more mature and lazy than Jesus.

The correct reading is:

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they sort of half cast out devils, if they get around to it; they shall pretend to speak in tongues;
They may or may not take up serpents, if they can be bothered, and if they drink any deadly thing, that would mean they were stupid;
they shall lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover about as much as if an atheist did it, on a good day, with the wind in the right direction;
but they have no obligation to do any of the above, because Christianity is a subjective and evasive thing, and let's face it, Christians are about the same weight and colour as atheists.
And Jesus said, why did I bother to say any of the above? I tell you, I don't know why. Maybe Mark is just full of shit.



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Offline Timtheskeptic

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2012, 10:12:33 AM »
i wouldn't say evil, because that's subjective. people have various ideas of what they think is evil. It's more to do with the action of a person. Some Christians are decent people, some are vile like the Westboro baptist church, and some are just plain nuts.
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Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2012, 10:34:57 AM »
Jst, maybe instead of going around creating new threads you should put some effort into answering responses and providing the evidence you were requested to provide in previous threads first.


I agree completely.

I've just made a response to him in another thread and I'm not that concerned that he will respond as he hasn't in the past, but I know that it's highly unlikely because of his cherry picking and numerous hit and miss involvements in other threads.

However I don't think that there is any doubt that based on his ridiculous OP:.......
Quote
I would like to see some answers to the following questions.  Theists, I would like to hear your answers too.

If a Christian does evil then is Christianity evil?

If an athiest does evil then is athiesm evil?
and based on the fact you have pointed out.

......We are in fact dealing with a trolling mental midget, who gets a hard on in thinking he's got us following him around.

That was my last post to the misspelling fucktard.
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Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2012, 11:06:47 AM »
I would like to see some answers to the following questions.  Theists, I would like to hear your answers too.
I will try my best.

Quote
If a Christian does evil then is Christianity evil?
No, it is not. Christianity in itself is evil, regardless of the behavior of its adherents. I will explain this position.

Christianity is the belief, in whatever of the 38,000 possible forms it takes, that Jesus Christ was the son of God and the Savior of man, and that the Bible is the testimony of this. Regardless of denomination, I think that they could probably all agree at least on that.

Now seeing as the Bible is supposed to be the foundational text of Christianity, we have to look at things that it endorses. Slavery, ethnic cleansing, rape, murder, torture, human and animal sacrifice, slaughtering and rape of children, cannibalism, sorcery, scapegoating, the owning of women as property, killing of: all non believers, homosexuals,  adulterers, those who pick up a stick on the sabbath, those who live in the same city as a non believer, children who disobey their parents, slaves who are disobedient, children who make fun of priests, etc etc etc. Jesus says that ALL laws are to be in effect. Therefore, the worship of a person who endorses such atrocities is, in itself, evil. Worshiping this deity and obeying its commands out of fear of eternal retribution and in the hope of eternal reward is not moral, it's emotional slavery.

Quote
If an athiest does evil then is athiesm evil?
No. Atheism is the position that there is no reason to believe in the supernatural. That's it. There's no higher power dictating your obligation to kill or destroy. An atheist who does these things is rightly considered for what they are, a psychopathic criminal murderer. But when religious people do these things, they are champions of their God. I don't think any atheist present here would look at the actions of Stalin or Mao and say "Yeah, that guy was really on to something!". In spite of the fact that they were non believers, they did not have a  divine obligation to do what they did. In fact, one could argue that they fabricated a system that replicates religion through worship of the state and its leaders(see: North Korea). The statement "There is no God, therefore kill all who don't believe the same" is a non sequitur. There's no reason for any sane person to come to such a conclusion. However, in the case of "God, therefore kill all who don't believe in him" is REQUIRED by the Bible (and Koran). There is no reason for people who do believe NOT to do those things as God commanded.

See the difference here?
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Offline Omen

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2012, 11:35:51 AM »
I would like to see some answers to the following questions.  Theists, I would like to hear your answers too.


If a Christian does evil then is Christianity evil?

Christianity informs beliefs, beliefs inform actions, and actions have consequences.

Psychologically speaking violence and various forms of inequality/intolerance are predicated upon how beliefs inform the perception of value in fellow human beings.  Christianity as an ideology is virulently xenophobic and as a consequence it informs the perception of value of other human beings who christians perceive as being non-christian ( regardless if they are or are not ) and their actions reflect the values of christianity.

You obviously can't make blanket generalizations from single examples, but we are not limited to single examples.  We have a history of christian opposition to virtually every socially progressive issue in existence, where the majority christian base justified their opposition too tolerance and promotion of intolerance based off of core theological context.  While the minority christian groups who opposed had less biblical justification.

We also have you.

You have behaved antagonistically towards us based on nothing more than your own perception of our value informed by a stereotypical series of beliefs.  You've imagined insults where none have been given, claimed your own persecution as you condescendingly mistreat others, and have relied upon a series of imagined false dichotomies with relationship to your belief system vs what you imagine the opposite of that is.

Quote
If an athiest does evil then is athiesm evil?

Atheism isn't a belief system.  It's a similar question as saying If a person who is bald does evil then is baldness evil?
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Offline Grimm

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2012, 11:47:49 AM »
@the OP -

Christianity is, of and in itself, not evil - no more evil than the code of the local Rotary Club or Moose Lodge. 

The problem is that Christianity promotes ignorance, by placing all knowledge in the hands of God; it encourages the idea of "if I do not know, then God", or "if I don't know what to do, then God", or (even worse) "as long as God, I don't need to do anything."   Because its practitioners are encouraged in ignorance and rote obedience, it does not evolve well.  Currently, various sects of Christianity (and not fringe ones, either) promote the subjugation of women, the removal of individual liberty on nebulous moral grounds, racism, classicm, victim-blaming, victim-shaming, witch burning (no, I'm not kidding), sufferance of abuse, and worse besides - relics of a time when these actions were arguably vaguely more enlightened than the 'kill 'em all' attitudes that persisted before they were brought to the table.

Gay marriage?  Biblically opposed - nevermind that two people who care about each other are basically excluded from public services, rights, and responsibilities simply due to gender in the civic (non-religious) space.  No, the bible has problems with it, so the country can't allow it - ignoring the perhaps quarter of the population that isn't christian, and the further third that isn't evangelical (and thus doesn't agree).   Slavery?  Biblically supported.  Segregation?  Biblically supported (and, amazingly, they're using the same arguments now against Gay marriage that they did against interracial marriage!).

Christianity claims universiality - what's good for christians is good for everybody... and that's the problem. 

So... yes.  Christianity is evil, or promotes evil, because it promotes the things that feed evil:  "us vs. them" thinking, ignorance, blind obedience, 'one-size-fits-all' moralism, and an inability to accept that you don't have to force people to conform to your moral structure in order for you to have that  moral structure.   It adds to that a healthy dose of persecution mentality and martyrdom... and the seeds are sown for all sorts of horrible behavior.
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Offline Seppuku

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2012, 12:02:07 PM »
'Evil' is a difficult word because it is subjective. However, using my own perception of the word I would not say Christianity as a whole is evil, but I wouldn't say that it's innocent. The reason for this is because of what the bible teachers, whilst there are Christians who reject the dark parts of the bible either because they believe the new testament condemns them or for another reason and generally those Christians I don't paint with the same brush, though if they *excuse* the actions of the 'darker' Christians then I might not have a very high opinion of them also the same for those who choose to deny that Christians do no such thing or try to weasel their way out of saying Christianity or the bible has nothing to do with the evils people do. But nobody can tell me that people hating gays has nothing to do with Leviticus? Or that Nigerians kill witches because the bible tells them that witches must die? The same kind of thing happens with Islam, but to a larger extreme because we have more Islamic theocracies, but Christianity's past isn't all that different. They have had a couple of reformations too, but there are people who seem to want to undo that. There's also groups of Muslims who want to 'reform' Islam, for example: http://muslimsagainstsharia.blogspot.co.uk/

Generally, against any kinds of *evil* people do, regardless of what reason they do it I think we should all oppose it and find their actions equally as distasteful.


Now, can atheism be responsible for evil? I will give the same answer I would give theism. No. Because of how both terms are defined. It would require additional ideologies for a person to do it in the name of their atheism or theism and the problem would lie with the ideology. So a Christian may kill a man because he felt the bible told him to do so, but you can't say that theism is what caused him to do it.

In cases where Christians do bad things but are unrelated to their Christian beliefs, then Christianity has nothing to do it. For example, Hitler (despite many claims) was in fact born into a Catholic family and kept a relationship with his God even when reigning (he makes several references to God) and in Mein Kampf he wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." Now I don't think it can be said Christianity influenced him to do what he did, as it was a Nazi ideology he formed and it's what his actions were based on and not anything in the bible, but he simply tried justifying to himself that it's what God would want and thus justifying to his followers.
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Offline Omen

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2012, 12:06:53 PM »
In cases where Christians do bad things but are unrelated to their Christian beliefs, then Christianity has nothing to do it. For example, Hitler (despite many claims) was in fact born into a Catholic family and kept a relationship with his God even when reigning (he makes several references to God) and in Mein Kampf he wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." Now I don't think it can be said Christianity influenced him to do what he did, as it was a Nazi ideology he formed and it's what his actions were based on and not anything in the bible, but he simply tried justifying to himself that it's what God would want and thus justifying to his followers.

What Hitler was is irrelevant, his appeal to the larger audience of the christian german populace is far more important.  He did nothing but capitalize upon what they already believed and what had been part and parcel of christian antisemitism for nearly 2000 years.  They believed it because it was an oft repeated and reinforced stereotype claimed in both the bible and the various religious apologist that followed the bible.

Christian ideology, through both the promotion of ignorance and its nebulous nature, lent itself to ( and still does ) thousands of years of genocidal violence.  Hitler doesn't come up out of a vacuum and suddenly drone up this kind of cultural hatred out of no where.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Omen

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2012, 12:17:04 PM »
Another excellent example of how christian ignorance has informed racism is the belief that african americans were the product of the mark of caine/ham.  It was a commonly held belief throughout much of Christendom until the late 19th century.

The irony being that it wasn't really until Darwin's advent to modern biology through natural selection did this religious notion become outdated.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 12:25:16 PM by Omen »
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline bertatberts

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2012, 02:08:48 PM »
If a Christian does evil then is Christianity evil?
If by evil you mean a person who is marked by anger, irritability, and irascibility. Who does callous, immoral and wicked acts. Which are deemed to be harmful and injurious? Then any person who is and does such things can be deemed evil.
However if a person does some of these things for what he believes are the right reasons.  Then the thing that incited such violence ( I.E. his religion) must be held accountable.


This next paragraph is in addition to everything every other atheist has said in this thread.


Christianity has an exceedingly narrow view of morality. Christianity reduces morality to that of death doesn't matter. 
Christianity encourages acceptance of real evils (Killing/murder) while focusing on imaginary BS.
Life is precious, however Christians will and can kill with impunity, because they believe in an after-life, thus they have no respect for anyone’s right to live. Life is merely a testing ground for heaven/hell too them. 
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Is Christianity Evil
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2012, 02:39:10 PM »
Christianity contains a lot of sadism and IMO the emphasis on heaven and eternal life causes many Christians to minimize the value of real human life on earth

So damn true. Being a Christian for decades had an immeasurable effect on the level of passion I had for this life. As Christians, people are taught to have a "Godly" disdain, a hate even, for the things of the world that oftentimes helps to make life wonderful. The constant thought in the back of my head was that of "focus your mind and place your treasure on things above and love not the world for the world and everything in it is passing away and has no lasting value." 

Can you imagine how much fun and pleasure I decided not to pursue? That's not even considering the many dreams I either brushed under the rug or never dared dreaming because I fully believed this life was futile and all things in life aside from "Godliness" were utterly meaningless. My existence as a human for most of my life has been that of an enslaved mind trapped in a box developed with the help of my Christian heritage that stood in the way of me fulfilling my highest potential, chasing the impossible dream, and being a free thinker.
What I have found is that my previous God belief was a hinderance to my personal development. It made me assume certain questions shouldn't be asked because either God or "God did was the answer" and because of that, many questions and potentially wonderful discoveries that would have come about in the course of pursuing answers to those questions were never asked and acted on.
God is in fact a saviour. Just think about it. If curiosity killed the cat, then in order to save the cat just insert God belief for it is God belief that is the death of curiousity.