Author Topic: Trying to convert into Athiesm from Thiesm, help?  (Read 3652 times)

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Offline Quesi

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Re: Trying to convert into Athiesm from Thiesm, help?
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2012, 10:18:17 PM »

I wanted to say hello and welcome and all of that.

You have already been innundated with lots of great resources, and following all of the links and watching the videos will certainly take up hours of your time.

If it is OK, I'd like to say a word about friends.  You are clearly in the midst of a huge life transition, and you will find out that some of your "friends" are not your friends.   

The guys who spread rumors about you when you were absent - have you said to them exactly what you typed here? 
1. Not officially atheist yet
2. They were stretching the truth quite a bit
3. You're supposed to let ME tell my friends and other people on MY OWN TIME


And if so, how did they respond? 

This is your decision to explore, and the process of exploration should be yours to control.  If they are your friends, they will understand this.  If they continue the process of spreading rumors or "outing" you, they are not your friends. 

Thinking rationally and winning debates are very satisfying.  But maintaining friendships with people who might not see the world the same way you do is more satisfying.  Don't cut off the people who are your real friends, even if you don't see eye to eye.  And distance yourself as best you can from those who are not your friends. 

Offline caterpillar

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Re: Trying to convert into Athiesm from Thiesm, help?
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2012, 04:07:34 AM »
no need to b with frnds who forces u to bcom sum1 els. they will nt accpt u untl u bcom a Theist. so mak new Atheist frnds. i hav als left mny Theist frnds.

Offline Pounamu

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Re: Trying to convert into Athiesm from Thiesm, help?
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2012, 04:39:57 AM »
no need to b with frnds who forces u to bcom sum1 els. they will nt accpt u untl u bcom a Theist. so mak new Atheist frnds. i hav als left mny Theist frnds.

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Offline Nozzferrahhtoo

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Re: Trying to convert into Athiesm from Thiesm, help?
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2012, 04:55:25 AM »
I've been researching evolution and I'm asking if anyone has any evolutionary evidence to post it on here and I will look at it. I may be 14, but man, I am ready for some of the most solid proof you got! Being picked on for being agnostic, is really, just making me disapprove of Christians more. Thoughts/Evidence? By the way, I'm not very good with grammar, so if anything was misunderstood just ask and I will be happy to answer it.

Unfortunately your question as it stands is so dilute as to be unanswerable. Asking "What is the evidence for evolution" is like saying "What is the evidence for Physics" or "What is the evidence for Chemistry". You are talking about an area of Science, in other words, that is quite broad. Unless you are more specific about what you actually want to ask I am not sure how to answer you.

For example while "What is the evidence for Chemistry" is a broad and meaningless question "What is the evidence that water is made up chemically of Hydrogen and Oxygen" is not and we can answer that question. Similarly if you ask specific questions on Evolution you are likely to get more coherent answers.

On another note however it is important to note that Evolution is not synonymous with atheism. As such your OP title has little to do with your actual OP and questions within it. One can perfectly understand and accept evolution and still be a Theist. Kenneth Miller would be a great example who was already mentioned for you to read more about and watch his talks on you tube.

That, of course, does not change the fact that there simply is no evidence, argument, data and reasons on offer by anyone at this time to even lend credibility to the idea there is a god or that one should be a theist. But that is a different discussion. Suffice to say understanding and accepting evolution might not be the route to atheism you are looking for.

Offline Historicity

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Re: Trying to convert into Athiesm from Thiesm, help?
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2012, 06:44:38 AM »
no need to b with frnds who forces u to bcom sum1 els. they will nt accpt u untl u bcom a Theist. so mak new Atheist frnds. i hav als left mny Theist frnds.

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Trying to convert into Athiesm from Thiesm, help?
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2012, 09:13:18 AM »
Two of the most important foundations to active atheism as a thought out position(as opposed to passive non-belief) are:

learn about religions other than the one your are brought up in
learn to recognize logical fallacies

Then ask yourself to try to justify your religion is right and those contradictory accounts are wrong without committing a logical fallacy. If you want the quick answer, you can't. Depite centuries of effort, and mountains of apoligia and billions of believers, no one has. Not Kant, not Decarte, not anyone.

« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 09:15:08 AM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline velkyn

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Re: Trying to convert into Athiesm from Thiesm, help?
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2012, 10:56:19 AM »
welcome to the forum, dynamic.  Here's a good website for evolutionary theory: http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs.html 

If you need help understanding anything, there are a bunch of people with their degrees in various sciences here. I have mine in geology.  Just. ask.
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Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Trying to convert into Athiesm from Thiesm, help?
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2012, 02:28:54 PM »
Here is a good montage of Christopher Hitchens tearing religion into tiny pieces and setting them on fire.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline Dynamic

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Re: Trying to convert into Athiesm from Thiesm, help?
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2012, 04:39:50 PM »

I wanted to say hello and welcome and all of that.

You have already been innundated with lots of great resources, and following all of the links and watching the videos will certainly take up hours of your time.

If it is OK, I'd like to say a word about friends.  You are clearly in the midst of a huge life transition, and you will find out that some of your "friends" are not your friends.   

The guys who spread rumors about you when you were absent - have you said to them exactly what you typed here? 
1. Not officially atheist yet
2. They were stretching the truth quite a bit
3. You're supposed to let ME tell my friends and other people on MY OWN TIME


And if so, how did they respond? 

This is your decision to explore, and the process of exploration should be yours to control.  If they are your friends, they will understand this.  If they continue the process of spreading rumors or "outing" you, they are not your friends. 

Thinking rationally and winning debates are very satisfying.  But maintaining friendships with people who might not see the world the same way you do is more satisfying.  Don't cut off the people who are your real friends, even if you don't see eye to eye.  And distance yourself as best you can from those who are not your friends. 

Yes, I have told them that. They don't care. Since I've gotten most of my research out of the Internet, they say "The internet isn't accurate!" or "Internet is only 50% correct!" Well, honestly, they are kinda hypocritical with this. Think about it, anyone can write a book.

I've been researching evolution and I'm asking if anyone has any evolutionary evidence to post it on here and I will look at it. I may be 14, but man, I am ready for some of the most solid proof you got! Being picked on for being agnostic, is really, just making me disapprove of Christians more. Thoughts/Evidence? By the way, I'm not very good with grammar, so if anything was misunderstood just ask and I will be happy to answer it.

Unfortunately your question as it stands is so dilute as to be unanswerable. Asking "What is the evidence for evolution" is like saying "What is the evidence for Physics" or "What is the evidence for Chemistry". You are talking about an area of Science, in other words, that is quite broad. Unless you are more specific about what you actually want to ask I am not sure how to answer you.

For example while "What is the evidence for Chemistry" is a broad and meaningless question "What is the evidence that water is made up chemically of Hydrogen and Oxygen" is not and we can answer that question. Similarly if you ask specific questions on Evolution you are likely to get more coherent answers.

On another note however it is important to note that Evolution is not synonymous with atheism. As such your OP title has little to do with your actual OP and questions within it. One can perfectly understand and accept evolution and still be a Theist. Kenneth Miller would be a great example who was already mentioned for you to read more about and watch his talks on you tube.

That, of course, does not change the fact that there simply is no evidence, argument, data and reasons on offer by anyone at this time to even lend credibility to the idea there is a god or that one should be a theist. But that is a different discussion. Suffice to say understanding and accepting evolution might not be the route to atheism you are looking for.

Mainly, I just would like too see how evolution has much more evidence of how it is truthful, and how it works.
Welcome, hope you find what you are searching for.
Bookmark.

I hope I do too, I want to be a atheist but like I said, my thought process until recently has been through a "christian standpoint" so I'm knocking that out of my head, slowly.

First, Hello Dynamic, welcome. Secondly, i have never tried to "become an atheist." I have been very much focused on reason and logic, trying to make sense of things and i've been trying to understand religious beliefs. I've come to realize i'm an atheist around the age 23, but i've always been questioning it long before. I can assure you that you've come to the right place to help solve some questions you might have. We're very much willing to help.

Thanks for the welcome. By "become a athiest" I mean, I've been in a transition from Christianity to Agnostic Thiesm. All my life everything has been just christian view point and nothing much more. All I'm saying by "becoming a athiest" is changing the view point. I can elaborate more if needed.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

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Offline Quesi

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Re: Trying to convert into Athiesm from Thiesm, help?
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2012, 05:44:39 PM »


 Since I've gotten most of my research out of the Internet, they say "The internet isn't accurate!" or "Internet is only 50% correct!" Well, honestly, they are kinda hypocritical with this. Think about it, anyone can write a book.


And you know what?  They are right.  You can find any absurdity that you look for on the internet. 

The internet links you to sources.  So you need to look at those sources and decide which ones you are going to take seriously, and which ones you are going to dismiss.   

When you want science, you go to a scientist on the internet.  Is the person you are quoting a research scientist in a specific field, or someone who pointed a camera at himself in his living room?  Does the person have a set of interests that might influence his or her opinions? 

Are you going to an original source?  How are facts different from opinions? 

Here, on these forums you will find smart people and links to even smarter people.  You will learn to hone your development of rational arguments.  You will learn to question. 

Offline Dynamic

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Re: Trying to convert into Athiesm from Thiesm, help?
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2012, 06:30:22 PM »


 Since I've gotten most of my research out of the Internet, they say "The internet isn't accurate!" or "Internet is only 50% correct!" Well, honestly, they are kinda hypocritical with this. Think about it, anyone can write a book.


And you know what?  They are right.  You can find any absurdity that you look for on the internet. 

The internet links you to sources.  So you need to look at those sources and decide which ones you are going to take seriously, and which ones you are going to dismiss.   

When you want science, you go to a scientist on the internet.  Is the person you are quoting a research scientist in a specific field, or someone who pointed a camera at himself in his living room?  Does the person have a set of interests that might influence his or her opinions? 

Are you going to an original source?  How are facts different from opinions? 

Here, on these forums you will find smart people and links to even smarter people.  You will learn to hone your development of rational arguments.  You will learn to question. 


Mhm I agree. That is why I go to reasonable sources, and more than one. Hell, I had a website when I was nine. I also spend hours a day just looking into the subject. I also dwell and think about the subjects during the day and brainstorm on paper. Then, I decide what I believe.

Honestly, I'm starting to consider myself a Atheist. So yes, if this was peoples goal in posting evidence, you have created me as a atheist. I find it hard to believe, to months ago I was a Christian. Now I'm a Atheist. The world is weird, isn't it?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

If you want to talk through skype, message me.

Offline Quesi

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Re: Trying to convert into Athiesm from Thiesm, help?
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2012, 07:42:58 PM »
Well, congratulations on your new self-identity. 

Now you need to decide what you are going to do with this new identity.  Who do you want to confide in?  Which friends?  Parents?  Teachers?  Clergy? 

I know you have some friends who have sort of jumped in and taken action that sort of took control away from you.  You need to get the control back. 

You can decide to tell everyone or no one.  Or some but not others.  That is up to you. 

How will this impact on your education?  Will you challenge what you are taught in class?  Or will you just slide through under the radar.  Do you think that your parents would consider allowing you to go to a secular school?  There are no right or wrong answers here. 


Offline Dynamic

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Re: Trying to convert into Athiesm from Thiesm, help?
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2012, 07:45:18 PM »
Oh, I'm terrible at hiding secrets unless they're life threatening. Lucky, I'm leaving my christian school for a public school. I have less than 2 weeks left.. so.. I plan on just keeping it quiet and blasting evolution and atheism as much as they want.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

If you want to talk through skype, message me.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Trying to convert into Athiesm from Thiesm, help?
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2012, 08:16:51 PM »
One thing I might suggest is to not look at it as converting from a theist to an atheist.  Atheists don't have a creed or a belief system.  Their distinguishing factor is that they do not believe in gods.  Think of it as deconversion from being a theist.  Once you have deconverted, you can work out the details of what you want to be (agnostic, atheist, rational skeptic, whatever) without having to work around mental blocks. 

Offline Timtheskeptic

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Re: Trying to convert into Athiesm from Thiesm, help?
« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2012, 08:23:17 PM »
One thing I might suggest is to not look at it as converting from a theist to an atheist.  Atheists don't have a creed or a belief system.  Their distinguishing factor is that they do not believe in gods.  Think of it as deconversion from being a theist.  Once you have deconverted, you can work out the details of what you want to be (agnostic, atheist, rational skeptic, whatever) without having to work around mental blocks.

exactly. i worked my way through learning about the things they told me, searching for evidence and rpoof.Like when some theists tells me awful things about people like gays and atheists, instead of jaccepting it, i researched in it and found they were wrong. not only that, reading the bible, seeing how the world works, and hearing what the theists were saying solidifies my decision to not be a theist. I didn't get converted, i deconverted.
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Offline Ivellios

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Re: Trying to convert into Athiesm from Thiesm, help?
« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2012, 08:44:18 PM »
Welcome to the forums.

The only thing binding Atheists, is the lack of belief in gods. You've probably noticed by now, that morality isn't based on "holy books" but simply a basic requirement to survive as a social species. This has also been shown to be evolutionary. In fact, when I was in High School and read the bible and not just the parts I was 'supposed to' I found the "absolute morals" of the bible abhorrent.

Also regarding the sciences and the bible: Genesis 1, the 6 days of creation are so far removed from reality, the only way it can work is via "magic." The solid dome holding up an ocean of water our rockets do not hit or pass thru when going to orbit should be proof enough. However, there are just some people that believe that the Earth is flat, even if you show them a world of proof and evidence, they still will not accept reality. Ultimately, this is something you must be able to accept with theists. There are just some that no matter what you say or do, you or anyone else will not be able to convince them. Some of your friends may come around, but others will not. I'm letting you know this, incase you didn't already know, so you don't get discouraged the times when you do fail.

Offline Nozzferrahhtoo

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Re: Trying to convert into Athiesm from Thiesm, help?
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2012, 02:13:42 AM »
Mainly, I just would like too see how evolution has much more evidence of how it is truthful, and how it works.

Again you have the same issue here as I highlighted before. This is like saying "I want to see evidence of how Chemistry is true and how it works". What you are asking is massively vague. Unless you are more specific it is hard to know what to give you.

The best I can do is reiterate the recommendations to go watch the talks by Kenneth Miller. The books of Richard Dawkins are of course also likely to be recommended to you as he is a popular science writer on the subject. At the level you are at I think what you need is to explore some of the popular science literature on the subject rather than the Peer Reviewed Scientific Papers and Data on the subject.

Any specific questions you find on that quest I, and likely others, will be more than happy to work through with you however.

Offline Omen

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Re: Trying to convert into Athiesm from Thiesm, help?
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2012, 08:16:54 AM »
Now, I've been devoting hours a week to researching and evolution. To some atheist friends, I'm "Brainwashed" to think "Oh, evolution? No evidence. Bad." and "Evolution is false" by the years that its been stuffed into my head. Now, I'm "breaking free" of the "brainwash" I guess you could say.

One of the most dogmatic things that christian apologist try to reinforce about atheism and evolution is the idea that evolution and atheism are interrelated.  Most of their arguments begin by assuming this dichotomy and then referencing this dichotomy when it serves the purpose of making an emotional appeal to an audience that is more likely to associate 'atheism' with bad.  It's a simplistic type of rationale, but effective in evoking reactions in a target audience of people that are already encouraged to believe the worst about others who do not believe as they do anyway.
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Trying to convert into Athiesm from Thiesm, help?
« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2012, 11:14:03 AM »
Alright, so here's a little story before I start. TL;DR will be available below. I was born into a "christian" home. I was christian when I was 6, however, I was converted to Agnosticism when I was 13, March 16th, 2012 to be exact, now I'm 14 and brimming with questions. I attend a christian school currently and I'm picked on by friends for being agnostic, (Great friends, right?). I love to debate Christianity mainly. Now, I've been devoting hours a week to researching and evolution. To some atheist friends, I'm

Heavy artillery, dude?

The heaviest is to keep the focus on how stupid they are, because you can do that in fewer words.

They are really worried by the fact that the Earth could be really old, so point out:

Laminar varve deposits
Light from galaxies
Tree root "horizons" on levels of coal deposits

Point out:

God creates the sun on day 4.
Noah was told to put ALL the animals onto the ark (several times), and if things re-evolved, how do they match the fossil record?
God didn't put any plants on the ark, but they were all alive after the flood
God is called both Elohim and Yahweh, because 2 religions have been mixed together
God made us speak different languages because he was afraid that we'd build a really high building and get to heaven
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline EV

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Re: Trying to convert into Athiesm from Thiesm, help?
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2012, 01:22:20 PM »


You may find this interesting Dynamic. I presume you are in the USA. Take a look. It's radically different to the other of the highly-developed countries.

It highlights that an excess of religion can cause a lacking in scientific knowledge.

Maybe you can point this out to your 'friends'... :P
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Offline Dynamic

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Re: Trying to convert into Athiesm from Thiesm, help?
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2012, 05:18:35 PM »
?? Got a 508 Error so sorry for late reply ??

Yes, I am in the US. I "Withdraw" my comment on converting to atheism. I understand now you can't convert to something that isn't a religion. Therefore, I apologize for misconceptions.


Right now, I'm compiling a massive list of arguments against Christianity. Feel free to post arguments.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

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Offline velkyn

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Re: Trying to convert into Athiesm from Thiesm, help?
« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2012, 08:29:18 AM »
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline magicguy

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Re: Trying to convert into Athiesm from Thiesm, help?
« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2012, 09:24:48 PM »
I see no god at work in this world.For proof of evolution as most have already posted talk origins but i have not seen someone post this essay on there yet

29+ Evidences for Macroevolution
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

also 2 very good videos on evolution



and


Offline AI-0010

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Re: Trying to convert into Athiesm from Thiesm, help?
« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2012, 10:26:29 PM »
I just keep it to myself unless I'm online.  My absence from religious events have always been noted, as well as my differing points of view from the theist group (Catholicism) that I belonged to.. 

People naturally seem to spread a lot of distasteful rumors about me as well - many are either based on discrimination or are outright not true.  Either way, people paint up a picture of what manner they see a certain individual.  As I don't fit into groups, rumors about me have ranged widely, but are rather disgusting when I find out about them.

If it continues to the point of being threatening to your life or state of health, consider suing.  That usually brings about mounds of evidence, to the extent where the group has to use a ton of money just to fight it.  Something like that also notifies the authorities what is going on. 

If a theist group is threatening to someone just because they are now atheist, that can be construed as discrimination.  If that group threatens the life of the atheist, that becomes a criminal investigation.