Author Topic: Santa Claus Planet  (Read 869 times)

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Offline flapdoodle64

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Santa Claus Planet
« on: May 08, 2012, 02:45:51 PM »
Sometimes theists don't understand why atheists get frustrated living in a society that is overwhelmingly dominated by theists.  I sometimes ask myself this question. 

But imagine if a Xian, Jew, Hindu or Muslim or other theist suddenly found himself transported to a planet where the majority of people believed in the literal and true existence of Santa Claus. 

What if persons on this planet who did not believe in Santa Claus were considered immoral or inferior?

What if all legal marriages on this planet had to be performed by a person in a Santa Suit who said 'Ho Ho Ho' all through the ceremony?

What if failing to give your employer a Christmas present were grounds for firing? 

What if politicians insisted on spending $200 billion a year training people to become elves? 

What if every business that called itself a 'Santa's Workshop' were exempt from paying taxes?

What if you got a serious illness and people told you it was because Santa knew you were naughty? 

What if there were state regulations that mandated you to keep a chimney open by at least 30" X 30" so that Santa could safely make it down on Xmas eve?

What if economics classes in schools and universities were mandated to teach the Kringleogical theory of goods distribution alongside other theories?

What if gays and lesbians were discriminated against on the basis that Santa did not consider them to be 'good' boys and girls?

What if Santa impersonators maintained their own network to hide and protect each other whenever one was accused of child molestation? 

What if your nation declared war against all nations which favor the Easter Bunny over Santa Claus?

What if your government refused to take action to combat Climate Change based on the belief that the nation could simply 'be good' and ask Santa for a new atmosphere?

What if public figures who had committed crimes against the public could atone for their wrongdoing by sitting on Santa's lap and apologizing or by giving Santa cookies and milk?

What if your formerly rational son came home from college and told you he'd met a wonderful girl who shown him the truth and that he was putting up his stocking by the chimney because the presence of Santa had been revealed to him?

What if spanking children and torturing adult prisoners were permitted on the grounds that such punishments helped people become 'good,' therefore to gain the favor of Santa Claus?

What if every time someone prattled on and on to you about Santa and His Elves you were expected to either agree or smile and nod your head, no matter how idiotic, infantile and even evil the whole things sounded?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 03:14:47 PM by flapdoodle64 »

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Santa Claus Planet
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2012, 02:52:58 PM »
Brilliant post! I think it needs to be a poster and hung on walls everywhere!
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline stuffin

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Re: Santa Claus Planet
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2012, 07:14:51 PM »
After reading the subject title I wanted to go there, but after reading the full post I'm not so certain.

Whoa, I think I'm already there.......
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.

Offline Poseidon

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Re: Santa Claus Planet
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2012, 08:07:39 PM »
On another planet, it's the tooth fairy. I like what you have done.

Read that to "real" xtians and they will choose not to understand the parallelism. If they do understand, they'll become combative and assure you that hell awaits your miserable soul.

Offline Timtheskeptic

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Re: Santa Claus Planet
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2012, 08:17:55 PM »
i like what you think snickerdoodle.... i mean flapdoodle64. It is a rather interesting topic to think about, but sadly, as some theists would have it, they would just discard it as say, "Well mine is true and you're wrong." or something like that.
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I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Santa Claus Planet
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2012, 10:26:09 AM »
Please call me flap...although I do indeed like snickerdoodle cookies.

Thanks for the positive feedback.

This idea came to me a while ago when I was contemplating the fact that being an atheist in America is like being a 12 year old, who knows Santa is imaginary, amoungst a group of kindergartners making Xmas decorations who all believe Santa is real.  You don't want to spoil their fantasy and you don't want them to be upset and hate you. 

Offline albeto

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Re: Santa Claus Planet
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2012, 01:33:27 PM »
I like it.  Make it look pretty and let it go viral.


Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Santa Claus Planet
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2012, 02:58:48 PM »
Thanks. I tweaked it a little and reposted it in my blog, The Flapdoodle Files:

http://flapdoodlefiles.blogspot.com/

But if someone else wants to copy it and make it look pretty and repost, fine with me. 

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Santa Claus Planet
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2012, 03:39:08 PM »
Sometimes theists don't understand why atheists get frustrated living in a society that is overwhelmingly dominated by theists.  I sometimes ask myself this question. 

But imagine if a Xian, Jew, Hindu or Muslim or other theist suddenly found himself transported to a planet where the majority of people believed in the literal and true existence of Santa Claus. 

What if persons on this planet who did not believe in Santa Claus were considered immoral or inferior?

What if all legal marriages on this planet had to be performed by a person in a Santa Suit who said 'Ho Ho Ho' all through the ceremony?

What if failing to give your employer a Christmas present were grounds for firing? 

What if politicians insisted on spending $200 billion a year training people to become elves? 

What if every business that called itself a 'Santa's Workshop' were exempt from paying taxes?

What if you got a serious illness and people told you it was because Santa knew you were naughty? 

What if there were state regulations that mandated you to keep a chimney open by at least 30" X 30" so that Santa could safely make it down on Xmas eve?

What if economics classes in schools and universities were mandated to teach the Kringleogical theory of goods distribution alongside other theories?

What if gays and lesbians were discriminated against on the basis that Santa did not consider them to be 'good' boys and girls?

What if Santa impersonators maintained their own network to hide and protect each other whenever one was accused of child molestation? 

What if your nation declared war against all nations which favor the Easter Bunny over Santa Claus?

What if your government refused to take action to combat Climate Change based on the belief that the nation could simply 'be good' and ask Santa for a new atmosphere?

What if public figures who had committed crimes against the public could atone for their wrongdoing by sitting on Santa's lap and apologizing or by giving Santa cookies and milk?

What if your formerly rational son came home from college and told you he'd met a wonderful girl who shown him the truth and that he was putting up his stocking by the chimney because the presence of Santa had been revealed to him?

What if spanking children and torturing adult prisoners were permitted on the grounds that such punishments helped people become 'good,' therefore to gain the favor of Santa Claus?

What if every time someone prattled on and on to you about Santa and His Elves you were expected to either agree or smile and nod your head, no matter how idiotic, infantile and even evil the whole things sounded?
 

First I would want to know why they do those things.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Santa Claus Planet
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2012, 03:42:37 PM »
They do those things because:

1. They believe in a magical being.
2. They have been brainwashed since childhood.
3. Everybody else does it.

Offline Timtheskeptic

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Re: Santa Claus Planet
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2012, 03:45:45 PM »
Please call me flap...although I do indeed like snickerdoodle cookies.

Thanks for the positive feedback.

This idea came to me a while ago when I was contemplating the fact that being an atheist in America is like being a 12 year old, who knows Santa is imaginary, amoungst a group of kindergartners making Xmas decorations who all believe Santa is real.  You don't want to spoil their fantasy and you don't want them to be upset and hate you.

Ok Flap, i was just having a bit of fun with ya.  ;D I can understand what cha mean. :)
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I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Santa Claus Planet
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2012, 04:39:58 PM »
They do those things because:

1. They believe in a magical being.
2. They have been brainwashed since childhood.
3. Everybody else does it.


1.  Why do they believe in a magical being?
2.  How do you know they have been brainwashed by anything other than the truth?
3.  Everyone?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Santa Claus Planet
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2012, 04:43:56 PM »
Hi Jst.

I'm going to play your game:

Do you think Santa is real or imaginary?

If real, please explain how he does it all.

If imaginary, please explain why you think so. 

And a final question: Do you think it is better to believe true things or make yourself believe imaginary things?

Especially in a survival type setting...like planet earth. 

Offline Timtheskeptic

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Re: Santa Claus Planet
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2012, 04:51:40 PM »
1.  Why do they believe in a magical being?

I know you were addressing Flap this, but i would like to answer these for you. They believe because people wanted answers. Thousands of years ago, people would listen to those who make claims, no matter how nonsensical it sounds. If i went back in time, i would easily told people i have magical powers and tried a few tricks. people back then are illiterate, gullible, and are not well informed about the world as we are today.

Quote
2.  How do you know they have been brainwashed by anything other than the truth?

When i was little, my mom tried to instill the idea of mormonism in me, tried to get me to actually believe that the stuff were true. The things people were raised to believe, they instill their beliefs in their kids. The only thing is, my mom is a moderate christian who believes that it's best to let your kids figure things out for themselves. There have been some parents who were brutal in their religious belief and would disown their children in a heartbeat if they disbelieved. In other words, parents try to indoctrinate their kids, the church tries to indoctrinate the kids into religious belief and tells them to believe or they'll burn. Never once do you hear the church say, "This is what we believe, but we rather you look for facts and think for yourself."

Me:What are you looking at Eminem?
Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Santa Claus Planet
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2012, 05:29:56 PM »
Quote
Do you think Santa is real or imaginary?

He is imaginary on this planet but that doesn't mean he doesn't exist on some hypothetical world.

Quote
Thousands of years ago, people would listen to those who make claims, no matter how nonsensical it sounds.

But what if the last reports occurred after people lost such gullability.  I mean what if they occurred after people were civilized and education as is the case of Jesus.  Am I really to believe a few Jews just sat around and dreamed up a conspiracy that has now covered the globe?  If so, I would like to know how I may go about doing this myself.  It would take a lot of faith for me to believe this.

Quote
There have been some parents who were brutal in their religious belief and would disown their children in a heartbeat if they disbelieved. In other words, parents try to indoctrinate their kids, the church tries to indoctrinate the kids into religious belief and tells them to believe or they'll burn. Never once do you hear the church say, "This is what we believe, but we rather you look for facts and think for yourself.

But there is no reason to lump all religion into one pile.  There is no reason to dismiss the entire idea of religion because some are less than optimal.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Timtheskeptic

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Re: Santa Claus Planet
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2012, 06:03:51 PM »
Quote
But what if the last reports occurred after people lost such gullability.

Gullibility still occurs no matter whether they’re civilized or not. The thing is, religio0n was still being carried out throughout history, changing some things people believed and modified it to their own form of religion, which is why we have different denominations of Christianity.

Quote
I mean what if they occurred after people were civilized and education as is the case of Jesus.  Am I really to believe a few Jews just sat around and dreamed up a conspiracy that has now covered the globe?  If so, I would like to know how I may go about doing this myself.  It would take a lot of faith for me to believe this.

What I think may be wrong, but it’s because of war, oppression, and crusades. People fight others to force others to conform to their religious belief or die. People have spread their Christianity out far and wide through force and violence.

Quote
But there is no reason to lump all religion into one pile.  There is no reason to dismiss the entire idea of religion because some are less than optimal.

I’m not sure if I’m grouping all religion into one pile, as I said, my mom does not force me or my siblings to believe, but some do. The thing is, parents who were raised to believe in their religion, passes it down to their children. Some parents are fundamentally religious like the Westboro Baptist, some religious folks are less harsh and are likely to listen and learn, and more. The reason why I dismiss all is because I have not seen any evidence that their religion is true.
Me:What are you looking at Eminem?
Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Santa Claus Planet
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2012, 06:25:57 PM »
Quote
What I think may be wrong, but it’s because of war, oppression, and crusades. People fight others to force others to conform to their religious belief or die. People have spread their Christianity out far and wide through force and violence.

Well I certainly have no defense for those that carry out those things.  If I were able I'd demand they justify their actions in light of the Bible.  I have read the Bible and my beliefs are far removed from the ideals that cause all of that suffering.

Quote
I’m not sure if I’m grouping all religion into one pile, as I said, my mom does not force me or my siblings to believe, but some do. The thing is, parents who were raised to believe in their religion, passes it down to their children. Some parents are fundamentally religious like the Westboro Baptist, some religious folks are less harsh and are likely to listen and learn, and more. The reason why I dismiss all is because I have not seen any evidence that their religion is true.

Yes some do and I guess they can even be very forceful.  But again I cannot discorver a justification for this action in the Bible.  A parent has a duty to inform their children of their faith and to demonstrate it through their life.  But nowhere can I find that Christians should shove it down their throats. 

And if your mom is a Mormon then surely she has demonstrated to you that violence is not the Christian way regardless of what some extremists may do to prove otherwise.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Re: Santa Claus Planet
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2012, 06:28:38 PM »
1.  Why do they believe in a magical being?
2.  How do you know they have been brainwashed by anything other than the truth?
3.  Everyone?

There is no rationale that they couldn't make they you've already made for yourself regarding your own religious claims.  The 'why' should be as irrelevant to you as your own reasoning is irrelevant to supporting your own claims.  This is simply the product of your own specious reasoning and its hypocritical to suddenly become 'skeptical' the second your presented with a claim that doesn't confirm your own.
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Offline Timtheskeptic

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Re: Santa Claus Planet
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2012, 06:32:50 PM »
Quote
What I think may be wrong, but it’s because of war, oppression, and crusades. People fight others to force others to conform to their religious belief or die. People have spread their Christianity out far and wide through force and violence.

Well I certainly have no defense for those that carry out those things.  If I were able I'd demand they justify their actions in light of the Bible.  I have read the Bible and my beliefs are far removed from the ideals that cause all of that suffering.

The bible has told of many wars and demands of death of people who do not believe and for many things.

Quote
I’m not sure if I’m grouping all religion into one pile, as I said, my mom does not force me or my siblings to believe, but some do. The thing is, parents who were raised to believe in their religion, passes it down to their children. Some parents are fundamentally religious like the Westboro Baptist, some religious folks are less harsh and are likely to listen and learn, and more. The reason why I dismiss all is because I have not seen any evidence that their religion is true.

Yes some do and I guess they can even be very forceful.  But again I cannot discorver a justification for this action in the Bible.  A parent has a duty to inform their children of their faith and to demonstrate it through their life.  But nowhere can I find that Christians should shove it down their throats. 

And if your mom is a Mormon then surely she has demonstrated to you that violence is not the Christian way regardless of what some extremists may do to prove otherwise.
[/quote]

Yes my mom has taught us never to use violence and to always be kind. Heck, she always tries to get me to say, "please say thank you, please say you're welcome." when i was younger. not that i was a brat who wasn't kind.
Me:What are you looking at Eminem?
Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Santa Claus Planet
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2012, 09:27:13 PM »
1.  Why do they believe in a magical being?
2.  How do you know they have been brainwashed by anything other than the truth?
3.  Everyone?

Not a good argument. We have seen in modern times, the development of Scientology, Mormonism, Hare Krishna .

Scientologists believe that we are part Thetan, souls waring against Xenu, and give all their money to the corporation.
Mormons believe a man who read gold tablets out of a hat, and said that blacks were soulless and Jesus went to USA.
Hare Krishna uses brainwashing and communism techniques similar to those use in Acts 4. Jesus also says you should hate your parents; standard cult brainwashing procedure.
Shirley Maclean wrote a book, saying that ghosts drove her car, and aliens from Pleiades met her on a hill, and thousands in USA believe they have been abducted by UFOs.
Hitler started a pro-Aryan movement that could have won, had he not taken on Russia at the wrong time.

People will believe just about anything, and I'm only scratching the surface of the idiot box. If you try to make out that movements only start for sane reasons, you are really really desperate.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Santa Claus Planet
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2012, 03:20:40 AM »
1.  Why do they believe in a magical being?
2.  How do you know they have been brainwashed by anything other than the truth?
3.  Everyone?

There is no rationale that they couldn't make they you've already made for yourself regarding your own religious claims.  The 'why' should be as irrelevant to you as your own reasoning is irrelevant to supporting your own claims.  This is simply the product of your own specious reasoning and its hypocritical to suddenly become 'skeptical' the second your presented with a claim that doesn't confirm your own.

No, I just showed that the analogy proves nothing.  And no.  "Why" is the only thing that does matter.  And you are the one that actually cannot support your claims.  Everything you see around you is evidence that my claim is true.  You're the one that has absolutely nothing to support your claims.  Nothing.  Nothing at all.  All you can do is say I'm wrong and that is the extent of your argument.  And it's not very convincing.

Quote
The bible has told of many wars and demands of death of people who do not believe and for many things.

Yes the Hebrews faught wars,however those wars were prophesied to happen in every case without exception.  Any war that is not preceded by prophesy is wholly man's war.  You will find there is an absolute absence in the Bible of Christians carrying on war.  In fact, that's party why the Jews rejected the Christ.  It was because they were expecting a militant messiah to deliver them from the yoke of the Romans but that is not why he was here and neither is it why Christians are here.



Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline sun_king

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Re: Santa Claus Planet
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2012, 03:35:39 AM »
They do those things because:
1. They believe in a magical being.
2. They have been brainwashed since childhood.
3. Everybody else does it.
1.  Why do they believe in a magical being?
2.  How do you know they have been brainwashed by anything other than the truth?
3.  Everyone?

The post from Flap has most of the answers.

Q1.  Why do they believe in a magical being?
A1. They have been brainwashed since childhood.
A2.  Everybody else does it.
Q2.  How do you know they have been brainwashed by anything other than the truth?
A. They believe in a magical being.
Q3.  Everyone?
[Clarification requried] Is this relevant?

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Santa Claus Planet
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2012, 04:13:24 AM »
JST would do well to study the way modern conspiracy theories develop, as I believe that the Jesus story is of that genre.

The typical motivation of any conspiracy theory is to shift the blame off whoever did something, and place the blame on the Jews or Masons. Hence Mohamed Atta was just a guy who was minding his own business, and Lee Harvey was really a great guy, and Pilate and his wife are saints. You can tell who really did it, by who the theorists are attempting to exonerate.

Typically, the theorist puts up a ridiculous, nasty theory, and then has to answer loads of criticism of it. They then develop counter arguments, and dig themselves in deeper, often manufacturing historical events, mysterious happenings, and a litany of witnesses that you can't interview, to support their delusions.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Santa Claus Planet
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2012, 04:45:11 AM »
And you are the one that actually cannot support your claims.  Everything you see around you is evidence that my claim is true. 

And exactly how does that prove that your claims are true? As opposed you proving that the Buddhist claims are true?

You always seem to have a lot of trouble with that one.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

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Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline sun_king

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Re: Santa Claus Planet
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2012, 05:01:08 AM »
Everything you see around you is evidence that my claim is true. 

Nopes, big mistake, what you see around is evidence that the Hindu claim of the creation of the universe is true.

You're the one that has absolutely nothing to support your claims. 

Another big mistake, there are lots of books, each more than a couple of millennia old, that supports the Hindu claim.

Offline Omen

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Re: Santa Claus Planet
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2012, 07:40:21 AM »
There is no rationale that they couldn't make they you've already made for yourself regarding your own religious claims.  The 'why' should be as irrelevant to you as your own reasoning is irrelevant to supporting your own claims.  This is simply the product of your own specious reasoning and its hypocritical to suddenly become 'skeptical' the second your presented with a claim that doesn't confirm your own.

No, I just showed that the analogy proves nothing.  And no.  "Why" is the only thing that does matter.

You've presented no argument that would distinguish your claims from the claims of someone else using the same specious reasoning.

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  And you are the one that actually cannot support your claims.  Everything you see around you is evidence that my claim is true.  You're the one that has absolutely nothing to support your claims.  Nothing.  Nothing at all.  All you can do is say I'm wrong and that is the extent of your argument.  And it's not very convincing.

This is incredibly dishonest of you considering we've already gone over pages of posts where you have intentionally lied about really basic information regarding science and to be totally ignorant of history.  You've been not only told you are wrong, but demonstrated how wrong you are too many times to count.  This kind of equivocating puerile response is exactly the kind of thing that makes us question your mental stability.

You've also returned directly to the crux of the problem, by again making blank unsupported statements that are essentially non-sequiturs that ANY nutcase for any religious or supernatural claim can make.  "Everything you see around you is evidence of my claim..."  just insert santa clause, scientology, islam, etc.  This is a symptom of your own poor reasoning and you don't get whine and complain when people point it out.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 07:43:06 AM by Omen »
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me