NATHAN talks about Religious Healings

[NATHAN]

 

What are you interested in discussing here?

Historic evidence of Isreal  (Egyptian references to Isreal)
Links between biblical teachings and proven medical facts (such as forgiveness as it relate to health)

You can see healings with your own eyes this weekend in the Utica NY area.  A teacher and healer will be holding three services.  If you come to disrupt please don't, becuase the Pastor will throw you out but if you want to come see healings please PM me and I will provide the information. 

[HAL]

You can see healings with your own eyes this weekend in the Utica NY area.

Are the healings going to be documented/investigated by a neutral medical team using accepted scientific observational techniques.

[NATHAN]

Are the healings going to be documented/investigated by a neutral medical team using accepted scientific observational techniques.

I do not believe there are medical teams evolved.
It is open to the public and anyone can come observe the person's healing or delusional healing. I am sure if you talk with the people politely and respectfully they may be willing to provide medical records.  People are very private and it depends if they will trust you.  Again if you do anything to disrupt the service you will be asked to leave.   

[HAL]

NATHAN,

Here's what I'm going to do, to test you.

I'm going to split this healing discussion off as a new topic in General Religious Discussion, and release you from the ER. Then I want you to defend these healing claims with the other members without trolling.

OK?

[NATHAN]

That is ok.  I throw that out there if people want to see healings.  Not for me to provide evidence but for them to experience it for themselves. If you want to put it in the general religion topic please feel free and I will provide information as needed. 

Thank you

[HAL]

NATHAN has been released from the ER on an agreement that he discuss this topic with the membership.

NATHAN - any signs of trolling and you're outta here.

[One Above All]

BM

[NATHAN]

NATHAN has been released from the ER on an agreement that he discuss this topic with the membership.

NATHAN - any signs of trolling and you're outta here.

Fair enough HAL

[velkyn]

Historic evidence of Isreal  (Egyptian references to Isreal)

This is one of the problems with the exodus myth.  There is nothing supporting that there were hundreds of thousands of Israelites in Egypt.  There is also no evidence of any massive kingdom with magnificent palaces by the Israelites.  Many Christians claim that a mention of Habiru is "really" a mention of the "hebrews" but there is nothing supporting this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru 

Links between biblical teachings and proven medical facts (such as forgiveness as it relate to health)

  you need to show correlation and causation in such claims.

You can see healings with your own eyes this weekend in the Utica NY area.  A teacher and healer will be holding three services.  If you come to disrupt please don't, becuase the Pastor will throw you out but if you want to come see healings please PM me and I will provide the information.

  If this is real, where's the TV crew?   And they should be providing medical records as evidence of their miracle.

[NATHAN]

Historic evidence of Isreal  (Egyptian references to Isreal)

This is one of the problems with the exodus myth.  There is nothing supporting that there were hundreds of thousands of Israelites in Egypt.  There is also no evidence of any massive kingdom with magnificent palaces by the Israelites.  Many Christians claim that a mention of Habiru is "really" a mention of the "hebrews" but there is nothing supporting this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru 

  This is not part of this thread but held over from a conversation between HAL and I

Links between biblical teachings and proven medical facts (such as forgiveness as it relate to health)

  you need to show correlation and causation in such claims.

Agreed. I am in the process of getting medical records. 

If this is real, where's the TV crew?   And they should be providing medical records as evidence of their miracle.

  First of all it will be video taped.   Many people are not comfortable in front of a camera especially some hard charging reality or news TV crew.  Also we must repect other people's worship and privacy.  with the Pastor's approval I will try to get video. 

[velkyn]

This is not part of this thread but held over from a conversation between HAL and I

  it was one of the things you wanted to discuss. 

Agreed. I am in the process of getting medical records. 

How long will this take, do you think?  I have had many Christians make the same claim and never come up with what they say they will.   Shall we give you a week?  A month? 
 

  First of all it will be video taped.   Many people are not comfortable in front of a camera especially some hard charging reality or news TV crew.  Also we must repect other people's worship and privacy.

  Their comfort is an excuse of yours, Nate.  If people really wanted to get people to believe in their healings and “come to Jesus”, this should be no problem.  And until evidence is produced, there is no reason to respect any of these baseless claims. 

[One Above All]

Why do theists feel uncomfortable with a simple camera when their god(s) is/are watching everything they do at every moment of their lives?

[NATHAN]

 [/quote]  Their comfort is an excuse of yours, Nate.  If people really wanted to get people to believe in their healings and “come to Jesus”, this should be no problem.  And until evidence is produced, there is no reason to respect any of these baseless claims.
[/quote]

Agreed. 

[Emily]

Nate, check your inbox. I'll be in Canadaigua this weekend which is a reasonable distance to travel to and from Utica.

[Nick]

Emily will be our eyes and ears.  This should be fun.  I hope there is an amputee or 2 there.

[Seppuku]

Perhaps Emily could be so kind as to cut off one of her limbs too? All in the name of science. 

If she's going to go, then this might be an interesting topic in that we'll have a non-believer there to witness it. It would be cool to have a TV crew and some medical professionals too because it'd be interesting seeing video evidence and the medical professionals doing their own tests, just because it makes it easier to give more definite answers.

[Nick]

Also, it would be interesting if the peope healed are local and known by those there.  Not some strangers who lets say might continue to show up as this healing circus moves from town to town.

[Emily]

I'll have to talk to my husband to see if he'd like to swing by. I took Friday off of work to go to Canandaigua to visit some of his friends and he would like to travel to Syracuse to visit his sister. Syracuse is about an hour away or so from Utica. Normally (with the price of gas and all)I wouldn't travel an hour out of the way for something I don't believe in but given that me, my husband and my sister-in-law are all skeptics, there might be an exception made. Saturday would be the best time to make it, but in a PM to Nathan I was told that the Saturday service best for us is from 2-over (other than the morning service time I was given), which would be kind of tight for us. Having no clue when over will be, I'm not too sure what will happen. It's really up to my hubby.

It would be interesting to see. I've never been to one before but I've seen many faith healers on youtube. They all seem to have their own gimmick and their own 'posse' if you will. I find faith healing to be kind of like a placebo effect. People show up, knowing this claimed faith healer will be doing healing, and in turn they get the feeling of being 'healed', go home and wake up the next morning with the same ailment that bothered them before they attended the faith healing.

not too sure if that's the right way of wording it, but in my mind a faith healer (and any pastor's) best weapon is his power of persuasion. Power of persuasion doesn't necessarily mean that anything was actually accomplished. I have a lot of questions for the person who was 'healed' when they wake up the next day.

The best way to study those who were 'healed' by faith healing is to 1) know what they suffered from before the faith healing, with documentation from an accredited medical practitioner in that specific field, 2) know their attitudes going into the faith healing session. Whether their attitude was a positive THIS PERSON WILL HEAL ME, negative, I DON'T THINK THIS PERSON CAN HEAL ME, or neutral, THIS PERSON MIGHT HEAL ME, and 3) follow up examinations from up to one minute, one week, to one year or longer by a medical professional.

Having said that I expect to see a lot of people believing this healer will do some healing, and as an eye witness without knowing the individuals who get 'healed', I'll be somewhat skeptical (unless, of course, I see a limb being grown back)

[Ambassador Pony]

Try the steamed hams. I hear they're great!

[Backspace]

You can see healings with your own eyes this weekend in the Utica NY area.  A teacher and healer will be holding three services. 

Why doesn't the teacher/healer hold his[1] service in hospitals?  He would have plenty of people to heal while having doctors at arms length to objectively document the results.  It would be a win-win for everyone involved, no?

1.	I'm assuming the teacher-healer is a male

[Timtheskeptic]

You can see healings with your own eyes this weekend in the Utica NY area.  A teacher and healer will be holding three services. 

Why doesn't the teacher/healer hold his[1] service in hospitals?  He would have plenty of people to heal while having doctors at arms length to objectively document the results.  It would be a win-win for everyone involved, no?

1.	I'm assuming the teacher-healer is a male

Come to think of it, yes, why don't the healers come to the hospitals? If they can heal people, then maybe the healers would be needs in the hosdpitals, espeically children with cancers.

[Nick]

Yes, I wonder what the reason for that is?  Maybe this ability drains the person so they have to keep it small.

[jdawg70]

Try the steamed hams. I hear they're great!

Aurora Borealis.

[Backspace]

Yes, I wonder what the reason for that is?  Maybe this ability drains the person so they have to keep it small.

It drains the faith healers ability to make money.  In the healers own controlled venue, he can be certain of a decent haul of cash when the plate is passed...

[Ambassador Pony]

Try the steamed hams. I hear they're great!

Aurora Borealis.

Localized entirely in your kitchen.

[Ambassador Pony]

Nathan, I think you're full of shit. I think you are pretending to be an idiot who thinks mystical healings are real. I'm playing the odds and stating, for the record, not many are that ignorant.

Either you're a troll, or are diagnosed with a related mental illness.

[Seppuku]

If this is true, then it will show. For the time being he's got the benefit of the doubt and we can kind of give him a chance; he's admitted to trolling and knows how we deal with trolls, so his only chance of staying is to not troll and to keep to how the forum works. He's shown he's not ignorant on the scientific process or how we test whether something is valid or not.

Of course, time will reveal whether he's genuine or not.

[Add Homonym]

Either you're a troll, or are diagnosed with a related mental illness.

Either?

[kaziglu bey]

I do not believe there are medical teams evolved.

So, in other words, it's just a magic show with a theme. That's not very convincing.

It is open to the public and anyone can come observe the person's healing ....People are very private.....

Yes, people are so "very private" about their medical conditions that they go to an event that "is open to the public and anyone can come observe the person's healing". Yes, very private indeed. In other words, they are in on the scam, and any attempts to expose it as a scam will be considered "disruption". Awfully convenient.