Author Topic: Differences between men and women  (Read 3056 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Kimberly

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1044
  • Darwins +78/-1
  • Gender: Female
    • I am a Forum Guide
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2012, 08:21:59 AM »
You can't simplify it to biological or environmental. Both play an important role in defining ones gender role. I think everyone ignored what Bad Pear said:

I can't believe that no one has mentioned hormonal influences yet. Most (if not all) of the physical differences that Lucifer mentioned are due to hormone levels at certain stages of development. Hormone levels also greatly impact our behavior[1][2]. Many behavioral differences between males and females are both natural and physical at the same time. All of this is in addition to the very real effects of gender conditioning and other influences relating to the "nurture" side of things.
 1. http://www.springerlink.com/content/p15621u6l73w3125/
 2. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0018506X88900682

magicmiles

You couldn't be more wrong in your OP.

For a start, women are gentler.

Ever watch women's MMA?
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2012, 08:42:29 AM »
For a start, women are gentler.

way to start with utter bullshit. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10954
  • Darwins +284/-37
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2012, 09:00:33 AM »
For a start, women are gentler.

way to start with utter bullshit. 

Satire mode: ON
You're just a fish out of water, velkyn. That's how it works, apparently. If people act the way magicmiles expects them to, they're part of the majority and support his argument. If they don't or if they exhibit clear signs of lack of enjoyment that not even a blind person could miss, they're fishes out of water.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Quesi

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1986
  • Darwins +371/-4
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2012, 09:05:03 AM »
I’m an old-time feminist who believes in the equality of the sexes.  I have long believed that gender differences are a result of social conditioning, as both Lucifer and Nozz have affirmed.  There were times in my life that, perhaps I believed that women were more cooperative and men more competitive.  Hormonal perhaps.  Perhaps an evolutionary byproduct of the male hunter and the female gatherer.  But I believed that social conditioning was primarily responsible for the clear gender lines that define society. 

And then my daughter entered pre-school. 

At three years old, my daughter entered a wonderful school which had cameras in the classroom.  I could sit at my desk at work and peek in on what her day was like.  And I was honestly shocked by what I observed to be real differences between the 3 year old girls and the 3 year old boys in the classroom.

Three year olds need to run and jump and scream a lot.  The school created a structured environment for them to do a lot of running and jumping and screaming. 

But then there were the times that they sat down at their little tables and did projects like fingerpainting or coloring or playing with blocks or even stringing big beads.  The girls sat at the tables, happily engaged in the fine motor skill activities. The girls would chatter and focus on their projects.  The boys would start out ok, but within a few minutes, they would be waving their arms and throwing things at each other and knocking down the blocks and flicking the paint at each other and then getting out of their seats and running around, and doing all of that gross motor skill stuff.  The vast majority of the boys just could not sit and engage in the fine motor skill/focus stuff that the vast majority of the girls really enjoyed. 

I was flabbergasted.  And I don’t think that I was watching the effects of social conditioning.  There was a real difference between the boys and the girls. 

And there were other observations too.   I’m almost embarrassed to write this, because I’m not sure that I have even processed it.  Girls broke down in tears a lot.  When they mixed too many colors together and the paints turned brown rather than rainbow, they wept.  When their towers fell down, they wept.  My daughter, when she fell down, even if she didn’t hurt herself, would weep with embarrassment.  The boys rarely cried.  They scraped the skin off their knees and jumped back up to tackle their 20 pound assailants.  The only time I saw them cry was when they were repeatedly corralled in, prohibited from letting off the steam that they seemed driven to expel.  Then, in frustration, they collapsed.  These are 3 year olds.  And I know a lot of the parents, and I just cannot believe that these gentle, mostly progressive people, had instilled the “boys don’t cry” taboo in these sweet little kids. 

At home, my daughter played with trucks and trains and I carefully controlled the media that she watched and the books that we read to ensure that there were both strong female and male characters represented.  And sometimes she liked to go vroom vroom vroom.  But more often than not, she liked to create little worlds in which her toys interacted with each other. 

I know that anecdotal stuff doesn’t carry a lot of weight on this forum.  But I cannot state more emphatically how shocked I have been by observing gender roles in little kids.  I could write many more pages with more specific examples, but more anecdotes will not serve a purpose.

There are, of course, exceptions to every generalization.  There are girls who can’t sit and focus, and gentle little boys who have no desire to knock over the pile of blocks. 

And then there are those who defy all social norms.  The ones the nasty Christian pastor is worried about. 

I am so enchanted by the growing popularity of our new icon for “gender x.”


Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12239
  • Darwins +269/-31
  • Gender: Male
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2012, 09:10:31 AM »
Yeah, because 3-year-olds are blank slates without prior human interaction.  Right, Quesi?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Quesi

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1986
  • Darwins +371/-4
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2012, 09:19:47 AM »
Yeah, because 3-year-olds are blank slates without prior human interaction.  Right, Quesi?

Of course not.  But what I have observed, it seems more physical than mental.  Several of the kids were growing up in households with same sex parents.  One of the boys with two dads was among the most incapable of "fine motor skill" stuff.  And he has two, gentle, smart, socially conscious dads who modeled strong, gentle male behavior. 

Can't write more.  My sweet little girl has a bit of a fever, and we are off to the doctor.  I'll be back later. 

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10954
  • Darwins +284/-37
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2012, 09:24:30 AM »
Of course not.  But what I have observed, it seems more physical than mental.

Sorry, not good enough. If that were true, why are babies (who are as close to being blank slates as possible) not different from one another? Why aren't these differences "revealed" until the children have had enough human interaction to influence their behavior?

Can't write more.  My sweet little girl has a bit of a fever, and we are off to the doctor.  I'll be back later. 

She'll be fine. :)

EDIT: The question in bold is for magicmiles as well.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 11:00:58 AM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Timtheskeptic

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2239
  • Darwins +20/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • atheist and loving it
    • atheist blogspot
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2012, 09:40:14 AM »
So you've never noticed that boys, from a very early age, tend to play roughly with each other?

how children plays depends on what they've been experiencing, expecially from television. there have been boys who are not into playing rough but playing dolls, puzzles, legos, or reading books, or some other things. I've observed my little nephews; they don't play rough, but they are energetic kids who just look for something fun to do. This can apply to some young girls, some girls can play dirty if they like.
Me:What are you looking at Eminem?
Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline Nozzferrahhtoo

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 18
  • Darwins +3/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
    • Atheist Ireland
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2012, 09:52:48 AM »
I’m an old-time feminist who believes in the equality of the sexes.  I have long believed that gender differences are a result of social conditioning, as both Lucifer and Nozz have affirmed. 

....

I was flabbergasted.  And I don’t think that I was watching the effects of social conditioning.  There was a real difference between the boys and the girls.

Your anecdote based disbelief seems to me to be something somewhat similar to what I experience when I discuss Evolution with doubters of the Theory. An analogy I will expound upon here:

When I discuss Evolution I can show at the very low and local level what it involves. Small changes in DNA, Selection based on those changes, distribution of those changes within a population. Proof and evidence abound at every stage. And as I go the person in question follows me and agrees with me at every stage. Then suddenly when it gets to the point of adding all those changes up over a vast period of time the person simply can not believe that the stuff he just agreed with really could lead to the massive changes we have observed occurring over the totality of life on this planet. Thus the disparity is created in their mind between these meaningless concepts of "Micro and macro" evolution. The people I speak with normally are perfectly ok with the concept of Micro Evolution but when you set it running they simply can not accept the massive effect those tiny changes had over time.

What you appear to be saying is similar. You start off by saying you were convinced for a long time of the effects of social conditioning on children over the early part of their life. When those effects were put into actual practice however... and you had a chance to observe their effects in social situ so to speak... you were led to complete incredulity by the unexpected mass of the effect those things actually had in reality. That disparity in your thought process on the subject is likely something worth exploring for yourself as it might be quite informative.

Offline Timtheskeptic

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2239
  • Darwins +20/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • atheist and loving it
    • atheist blogspot
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2012, 09:54:34 AM »
...There are quite clearly more than physical differences between men and women.

For a start, women are gentler.

I apologize for not reading the thread before answering, but I've got a migraine and am on my way back to bed. This is an example of incorrect thinking. Just because many women are gentler than many men does NOT make women gentler. Any individual man might be gentler than the average woman. And any individual woman might not be gentle at all.

Generalities about gender, or any other factor, don't represent any specific individual and their ability.

I quite agree. i'm a very gentle person. If you have seen me as a 6 year old boy, i would be more of shy, quiet, gentle boy who plays wi.... i mean by himself. I am the type that reads books and writes stuff. I hardly act aggressive. I've even seen women who weren't gentle, especially if you anger them. My mom; she's a tiger if you cross her. ;)
Me:What are you looking at Eminem?
Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Online jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4849
  • Darwins +558/-17
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2012, 10:11:00 AM »
Has anyone considered instinct to explain some of those differences?  I suspect that boys and girls tend to have slightly different instinctive behaviors that are then exacerbated or minimized by society.

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10954
  • Darwins +284/-37
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2012, 11:05:18 AM »
The differences are obvious - Men are ugly, women are beautiful (although not all) and men are idiots and some women are less idiotic. Men are learly worse than women and their only purpose is to help reprodue.

Self-proclaimed asexual[1] misanthrope speaking about how men are ugly and idiotic.
Samuelxcs, your experience is truly the best anecdotal evidence for everything.

FYI: Some men are beautiful. I met this one guy who was truly gorgeous. I love blondes, so I'm a little biased, but he was the most beautiful guy I've ever met. And that's saying something. ;)
 1. I have my doubts about that, but that's a discussion for another time.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 11:14:42 AM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Timtheskeptic

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2239
  • Darwins +20/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • atheist and loving it
    • atheist blogspot
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2012, 12:22:38 PM »
The differences are obvious - Men are ugly, women are beautiful (although not all) and men are idiots and some women are less idiotic. Men are learly worse than women and their only purpose is to help reprodue.

biased and harsh and completely untrue. Appearance varies among either gender, i've seen beautiful men, average looking men, and ugly men, same with women. Intellect has more to do with knowledge they gain rather then based on their gender. As for the last one, i'm not sure what to make of it.
Me:What are you looking at Eminem?
Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline Quesi

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1986
  • Darwins +371/-4
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2012, 01:38:16 PM »
Sorry, not good enough. If that were true, why are babies (who are as close to being blank slates as possible) not different from one another? Why aren't these differences "revealed" until the children have had enough human interaction to influence their behavior?


Yes yes.  I knew I would not be able to get away with anecdotal evidence on any thread here. 

So I came home from the Dr. (she has strep, and apparently so do I) and did some googling on fine motor skill development in girls vs boys.  Apparently the parents at my daughter's preschool were not the first human beings on earth to notice the difference. 

So here are some popular (as opposed to scholarly) sources that state the girls develop fine motor skills earlier than boys, and that boys develop gross motor skills earlier than girls.  http://www.ehow.com/list_7348853_differences-skills-between-boys-girls.html and http://www.babycenter.com/0_raising-boys-and-girls-differences-in-physical-development_3659005.bc

Here is another article that discusses brain functions in girls and boys.  This is talking more about teenagers than little kids. 

The Minds of Girls
• By adolescence, a girl’s corpus callosum is 25 percent larger than a boy’s. The corpus callosum is the bundle of nerves that sends signals across the two parts of the brain. This enables more “cross talk” between hemispheres. Because of the greater cross talk, girls are able to multitask better than boys.
• Girls have fewer attention span problems and can make faster transitions between lessons.
• Stronger neural connectors create better listening skills, more detailed memory storage, and better discrimination among the tones of voice.
• A girl’s stronger neural connectors and a larger hippocampus provide greater use of sensory memory details in speaking and writing.
• Girls’ prefrontal cortex develops earlier and is larger than boys’.
• Girls have more serotonin and make fewer impulsive decisions than boys. Teenagers don’t think of the consequences of their actions. They act on impulse. It is the serotonin and oxytocin that tell a teenager to slow down and think about what could happen if they did something. “Our jobs as adults is to serve as external frontal lobes.”
• A girl’s brain also experiences approximately 15% more blood flow, which is located in more centers of the brain than a boy’s.
• With more cortical areas devoted to verbal functioning, girls are better at: sensory memory, sitting still, listening, tonality, mental cross talk, and the complexities of reading and writing, i.e. the very skills and behaviors often rewarded in schools.

The Minds of Boys
• Boys have more cortical area devoted to spatial-mechanical functioning and half as much to verbal-emotive functioning.
• “For many tasks, brain imaging studies show that women use the most advanced areas of the brain, the cerebral cortex, whereas men doing the same task use the more primitive areas …In adolescence, a larger fraction of the brain activity [in girls] associated with negative emotion moves up to the cerebral cortex. So, the 17 year old girl is able to explain why she is feeling sad in great detail...In boys the locus of brain activity associated with negative emotion remains stuck in the amygdala. Asking a 17 year old boy to explain why he’s feeling glum may be as productive as asking a 6 year old boy the same question.” Source: Sax, Leonard (2005) Why Gender Matters. New York: Broadway Books.
• Spatial-mechanical functioning makes boys want to move objects through the air, such as balls, airplanes, their little sisters, or just their arms and legs.
• “Boys are significantly more likely [than girls] to do something dangerous. Risky and dangerous activities trigger a ‘fight or flight’ response that gives a tingle, a charge, an excitement that many boys find irresistible. Boys systematically overestimate their own ability, while girls are more likely to underestimate their abilities.” Source: Sax, Leonard (2005) Why Gender Matters. New York: Broadway Books.
• Boys have less serotonin and less oxytocin, which makes them more impulsive and less likely to sit still to talk to someone.
• Boys have less blood flow to the brain and tend to structure or compartmentalize learning.
• The male brain is designed to go into rest states in which it renews, recharges, and reorients itself. Girls do this without going to sleep.
• The more words a teacher uses, the greater chance a boy will quit listening.
• Boys’ brains are better suited to symbols, abstractions, and pictures. Consequently, boys generally learn higher math and physics better than girls. Boys prefer video games for the physical movement and destruction. And boys get into more trouble for not listening, moving around, sleeping in class, and incomplete assignments.  http://crr.math.arizona.edu/GenderKeynote.pdf

I can't help but think that this is more than social conditioning. 

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2012, 01:50:07 PM »
it would be intersting to see more correlat to these biological difference directly to the behaviors.  In the rare test that actually does account for sex, like the ASVAB, I test like a man not a woman.  Might it be my brain?  that would be interesting to find out.
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2012, 01:55:43 PM »
Really? Wait until our female members get here so they can tell you just how much "gentler" women are.
Actually, chemically speaking and on average, they are. Men are more prone to testosterone based rages as well.

Let us not ignore the inconveinent.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10954
  • Darwins +284/-37
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2012, 01:58:26 PM »
So here are some popular (as opposed to scholarly) sources that state the girls develop fine motor skills earlier than boys, and that boys develop gross motor skills earlier than girls.  http://www.ehow.com/list_7348853_differences-skills-between-boys-girls.html and http://www.babycenter.com/0_raising-boys-and-girls-differences-in-physical-development_3659005.bc

Without knowing if there were actual experiments conducted to come to those conclusions and how they were conducted, I will refrain from accepting or rejecting them.

Here is another article that discusses brain functions in girls and boys.  This is talking more about teenagers than little kids.

While this is somewhat irrelevant due to the social conditioning they have been put through up until then, I wish to point out a few things.
1: My statement was incomplete/wrong. Like Bad Pear said, hormones make a difference, and boys have different hormones than girls.
2: This seems to contradict something else I've read on at least one issue, which I point out below.
Quote
• By adolescence, a girl’s corpus callosum is 25 percent larger than a boy’s. The corpus callosum is the bundle of nerves that sends signals across the two parts of the brain. This enables more “cross talk” between hemispheres. Because of the greater cross talk, girls are able to multitask better than boys.
• Girls have fewer attention span problems and can make faster transitions between lessons.

According to another thing I've read (I can't remember where, but I'm fairly confident I can find it if you want me to), people who are good at multitasking have a lot of attention span problems because of the way the brain handles the "multitasking".
I wrote multitasking that way because it's not actually possible to focus on multiple things at once; the brain just changes its attention very quickly from one to the other.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Timtheskeptic

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2239
  • Darwins +20/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • atheist and loving it
    • atheist blogspot
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2012, 02:12:46 PM »
i have thought about this, supposedly if I have two sons, i put one in the room with puzzles, books, and some building blocks and another in the room with sport equipments, excerise equipments, and some soft plush toy swords. I wonder what you would think in that case? Especially if i were to put each girl in each room. While it is likely that our traits from our parents and our hormones would be the same. But i will like to hear what you think.
Me:What are you looking at Eminem?
Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10954
  • Darwins +284/-37
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #47 on: May 08, 2012, 02:21:26 PM »
Actually, chemically speaking and on average, they are. Men are more prone to testosterone based rages as well.

LOL
Keep telling yourself that. All the women I've met are far more aggressive than the guys.[1] In fact, I've never seen a guy go on a rampage (except myself, but I'm fairly certain that's unrelated to the testosterone).

Let us not ignore the inconveinent.

I am not ignoring the inconvenient. magicmiles claimed anecdotes supported his case. I rejected his anecdotes based on my anecdotes.


The whole problem with this issue is that any behavioral differences are either based on the physical (hormones) or on social conditioning, rather than an innate psychological preference for some things that is somehow tied to the twenty-third pair of chromosomes. magicmiles is claiming the latter, which is pure BS.

i have thought about this, supposedly if I have two sons, i put one in the room with puzzles, books, and some building blocks and another in the room with sport equipments, excerise equipments, and some soft plush toy swords. I wonder what you would think in that case?
<snip>

In "Nature versus Nurture", nurture almost always wins. That's what separates us from simple-minded animals - we can say "No" to our nature.
 1. Sorry(?), dudes.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 02:26:06 PM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Kimberly

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1044
  • Darwins +78/-1
  • Gender: Female
    • I am a Forum Guide
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2012, 02:24:50 PM »
i have thought about this, supposedly if I have two sons, i put one in the room with puzzles, books, and some building blocks and another in the room with sport equipments, excerise equipments, and some soft plush toy swords. I wonder what you would think in that case? Especially if i were to put each girl in each room. While it is likely that our traits from our parents and our hormones would be the same. But i will like to hear what you think.

I think some conditioning would occur but I also think we may be predispositioned to favor one over the other.

My parents always made me go outside to play. I always hated going outside to play and still don't really enjoy the outdoors. My mom always bought me barbies and dolls (Because she liked them), I never really liked them so I played with my stuffed animals instead. IDK why I never like Barbie or any dolls for that matter, I just never did. All the women in my family love jewelry and makeup, I never really cared for them and still don't. I seemed to have rejected most of my parents attempts at conditioning me in to a girly girl who also enjoyed the outdoors.

I also hate lots of other stereotypical women traits such as cleaning, cooking, and I'm also not really all that nurturing or affectionate. But I know the reason behind those "abnormalities" and it was defiantly my conditioning.
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline Kimberly

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1044
  • Darwins +78/-1
  • Gender: Female
    • I am a Forum Guide
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #49 on: May 08, 2012, 02:25:44 PM »
In "Nature versus Nurture", nurture almost always wins. That's what separates us from simple-minded animals - we can say "No" to our nature.

Except when we can't, and sometimes we can't...
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10954
  • Darwins +284/-37
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #50 on: May 08, 2012, 02:26:30 PM »
In "Nature versus Nurture", nurture almost always wins. That's what separates us from simple-minded animals - we can say "No" to our nature.

Except when we can't, and sometimes we can't...

Bold mine.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Kimberly

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1044
  • Darwins +78/-1
  • Gender: Female
    • I am a Forum Guide
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #51 on: May 08, 2012, 02:37:54 PM »
Bold mine.

I apologize, I missed that. (Selective vision strikes)
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline Quesi

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1986
  • Darwins +371/-4
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #52 on: May 08, 2012, 02:38:50 PM »
Lucifer, I am most certainly not going to joust scholarly articles on brain functions with you because you will win. 

I identified these as popular, not scholarly articles, because they were the result of a quick google, not a serious research project.   

I offered them as evidence that my observations on the development of fine motor skills in three year boys vs three year old girls was not purely anecdotal. 

I do not pretend to know the reasons behind the realities that I observed.  Brain function?  Hormones?  Other factors related to skill development and focus?  But I am clearly not the only person to make this set of observations.

And I cited my observations of three year olds, rather than five year olds (my daughter's current age) because three year olds have spent more of their life in a controlled environment.  Many of the three year olds in my daughter's preschool class had spent their entire lives in the company of a stay at home parent.  And I would say that almost a third of the parents swore that their children watched no tv, though I suspect a percentage of the parents were posing, rather than telling the absolute truth.  But I can really say that there was a commitment on the part of a huge percentage of the parents to raise their children gender neutral.  And still, gender differences were shockingly apparent. 

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10954
  • Darwins +284/-37
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #53 on: May 08, 2012, 02:43:47 PM »
Lucifer, I am most certainly not going to joust scholarly articles on brain functions with you because you will win.

I dunno about that. I never jousted in my life. :P
Seriously though, don't be so sure. I can be wrong, and I am often[1] wrong.

I identified these as popular, not scholarly articles, because they were the result of a quick google, not a serious research project.

Same here (on the "Scholarly versus Popular" thing). I wasn't even looking for the article, actually. I was reading random articles and found it.

I do not pretend to know the reasons behind the realities that I observed.  Brain function?  Hormones?  Other factors related to skill development and focus?  But I am clearly not the only person to make this set of observations.

Well, that's the problem with this issue. I say it's not the result of some kind of innate psychological preference, but that it is, in fact, physical. magicmiles disagrees.
 1. From my PoV.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Timtheskeptic

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2239
  • Darwins +20/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • atheist and loving it
    • atheist blogspot
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #54 on: May 08, 2012, 07:21:45 PM »
i have thought about this, supposedly if I have two sons, i put one in the room with puzzles, books, and some building blocks and another in the room with sport equipments, excerise equipments, and some soft plush toy swords. I wonder what you would think in that case? Especially if i were to put each girl in each room. While it is likely that our traits from our parents and our hormones would be the same. But i will like to hear what you think.

I think some conditioning would occur but I also think we may be predispositioned to favor one over the other.

My parents always made me go outside to play. I always hated going outside to play and still don't really enjoy the outdoors. My mom always bought me barbies and dolls (Because she liked them), I never really liked them so I played with my stuffed animals instead. IDK why I never like Barbie or any dolls for that matter, I just never did. All the women in my family love jewelry and makeup, I never really cared for them and still don't. I seemed to have rejected most of my parents attempts at conditioning me in to a girly girl who also enjoyed the outdoors.

I also hate lots of other stereotypical women traits such as cleaning, cooking, and I'm also not really all that nurturing or affectionate. But I know the reason behind those "abnormalities" and it was defiantly my conditioning.

That's quite true. There are things parents do to encourage their kids with stuff like sports, music, etc andm i think sometimes parents do this without asking or maybe accepting thatn their kid might not want it.
Me:What are you looking at Eminem?
Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline Bad Pear

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 238
  • Darwins +16/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Observations from one bad fruit to the bunch.
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2012, 11:30:36 AM »
Well, that's the problem with this issue. I say it's not the result of some kind of innate psychological preference, but that it is, in fact, physical. magicmiles disagrees.

Doesn't this just boil nicely down to differences between thier[1] and our[2] worldviews? I mean it seems to me that whatever the cause[3], be it from hormones, physiological differences in brain structure, gender conditioning, etc, that it is ultimately physical in origin. From the theist's POV, however, it is an innate part of that individuals spiritual makeup. They are differentiated by a higher power from conception to fit into one of only two roles they see as available.

I honestly don't see how these two starting points can ever be reconciled without massive concessions by the theist.
 1. Magicmiles and most other theists
 2. most of us here
 3. and I think we would all agree (except MM) that there are numerous factors
Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions implode, atheism is what is left behind

Offline Quesi

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1986
  • Darwins +371/-4
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #56 on: May 10, 2012, 04:29:11 PM »
WARNING
Self-indulgent personal anecdote containing no rational thought below. 


Ran into the father of the most rough-and-tumble 5 year old boy in my daughter’s social circle this morning, on the way to our respective bus stops, and I alluded to this discussion. 

I admitted that before becoming a parent, I really thought that I could raise my daughter with a gender neutral set of influences, and that as a result, she would not fall into any of the stereotypical gender roles imposed by society.  He said “Yeah, that is what they taught us on our undergrad “Women’s Studies” classes.  I burst into laughter, because it is true.

We chatted a while about our kids, and I remembered taking my daughter to the local gay pride parade when she was about 20 months old.  This is a little neighborhood parade, not the huge famous one that ends in Greenwich Village. 

So I sat her down in a little folding chair with a sippy cup to watch the parade go by. 

The parade opened with “Dykes on Bikes.”  My 20 month old was unimpressed, even when I pointed at the motorcycles and went “vrrroommmm!  vrrroommm!”  She played with a stuffed animal she had brought along, and didn’t really raise her eyes at all. 

A while later the mounted cops came by, and she got excited about the horses and pointed and smiled and got some friendly waves from the cops. 

But then, oh then, the drag queens started strutting by.  She went NUTS.   I had never seen her so animated and excited.  She jumped out of her little folding chair and bounced up and down and pointed excitedly at the bare-chested men in brightly colored feather boas, and she could not contain herself.  She pointed at the elaborate hats longingly, and then at her own head.  She mimicked the high-heeled dance steps. 

There she was, being exposed to the antithesis of male/female stereotypes, and much to my dismay, she was not drawn to the strong women.  She liked the boas and the silly hats.   

In spite of really conscious efforts on my part, my daughter is the girliest of girly girls. 

A couple of years later, when she was probably about 3 going on 4, I had given in to her begging and bought her a ridiculous headband with a big pink plastic flower the size of my fist.  REALLY not my style.  But she LOVED it.  She had worn it on a few playdates before, but when we were getting ready for a playdate with this dad (who is a gay man who always dresses in a very dapper way and often makes comments on people’s fashion), and she gazed at herself in the mirror and murmured “Do you think Mr. G is going to like my beautiful flower?”  She had never asked if any of the moms were going to like her flower.    In her world, it is Mr G, and not the women in her life, who appreciate “pretty things.” 

So this morning on the way to the bus stop, Mr. G commented on her beautiful new sparkly sneakers.  She gave him a sticker for “being nice’ and the kids ran around for a few minutes, and we chatted about gender roles.  I said “but I have trucks and trains” and he said “Yeah, we have dolls.”  He went on to say that he is the one who plays with the dolls.  Oh.  And that his son uses the dolls as “victims” to run over with his toy trucks. 

We are both adoptive parents, and of course we believe in the power of nurture, and the enormous influence that we have and are going to have on the lives of our kids.  But for both of us, nature is sometimes a little disconcerting. 

Online Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1468
  • Darwins +27/-105
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Differences between men and women
« Reply #57 on: May 11, 2012, 08:46:38 PM »
I have a set of twin boys that are now 19.  I remember once when they were about five they did something that demonstrated to me the difference in boys and girls.  Keep in mind that at five they were too young to know "what was expected of them" sexually.

Anyway, my mother in law once brought them a huge box of toys from a garage sale.  Among them were some dolls.  At one point both boys took out some dolls and began playing with them.  I took notice of them but didn't do anything.  So I just objerved as I usually did.

For a few minutes they played with the dolls as might any girl or any other boy might have.  However, after a few minutes of that they both took to sword fighting with these dolls!

At this point I actually had to stop them since I didn't want them to learn fighting any more than I could help it.  But I had a good laugh.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 08:50:22 PM by Jstwebbrowsing »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10