Author Topic: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?  (Read 3490 times)

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Offline Alzael

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #87 on: May 08, 2012, 09:31:38 PM »
^^^^^

You see what I mean? She just wrote "Mean, spiteful and very ignorant." on the comment for that neg she gave me. It's absolutely hilarious the level of utter stupidity she represents. I guarantee that at no point did she stop and think that she was essentially describing herself. her brain just does not function that way. And I suspect we haven't even begun to plumb her depths. I really want to see just how far down the scale her idiocy extends.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 09:35:02 PM by Alzael »
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

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Offline Maggie the Opinionated

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #88 on: May 08, 2012, 09:39:41 PM »
You can't reach that high, I am afraid. But I must say it is fascinating and horrifying to watch a demon in training.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #89 on: May 08, 2012, 09:42:20 PM »
You can't reach that high, I am afraid. But I must say it is fascinating and horrifying to watch a demon in training.

I love you too.

By the way, how far along am I as a demon? And at what point does the tail sprout? I need to know so I can update my wardrobe. Do I have to wear red? I hate that colour, I look terrible in it. What's the fashion rules on the horns, is it ok to whittle them down small, or should I let them grow to a good long length?

Oh yeah and when does the sodomy kick in? Or is that optional? I just ask because you say you have all the answers and that you're here to clear up our misconceptions.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 09:52:15 PM by Alzael »
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline Omen

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #90 on: May 08, 2012, 09:52:23 PM »
No this is actually intriguing and I have lightly thought about this before.  Are you asking if we took God out and replace him with an alien pretending to be God how could we tell the difference?

Your claims are vacuous, empty of any meaningful objective means to describe what you're claiming much less why.  You're appeals are reduced to ever increasingly absurd rationale oriented towards your own confirmation bias in such a way to make it impossible to determine your own beliefs true even if they were.  It's just the mindless repetitive use of rhetoric tied to promoting an insular belief system, much like how a cult brainwashes people.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #91 on: May 08, 2012, 11:26:16 PM »
It's really unfair to chide the Christians for being unable to answer this question.

It's like asking "If you had enough water, could you fill a glass of X size?" Of course. That's what enough means. No matter how big the hypothetical glass is, I could fill it if I had enough water. An advanced being of hypothetically infinite power could do anything God could do. Regardless of any answer they give, or whatever act or demonstration that God could muster, a sufficiently advanced alien could, by definition, imitate. It's a moving goalpost.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Alzael

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #92 on: May 08, 2012, 11:30:06 PM »
Maybe, but they're the ones claiming to have the evidence.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #93 on: May 08, 2012, 11:56:40 PM »
The Bible is very clear that Christ will come again and that no one will be under any misapprehension about who he is. The alien, no matter how advanced, is going to have trouble duplicating that.

I think you have overestimated the intelligence of Christians.

They see Jesus in toast.

I think an advanced alien could pretty easily convince people who have been fooled by toast.

Not to mention, hundreds of people have claimed to be Jesus, many of them have been able to attract followers who believed them. A few of them have attracted millions of followers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_claimed_to_be_Jesus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants

But beyond all that, how hilarious is it that you actually believe in the possibility of this incredibly advanced alien but don't believe in the possibility of God. The mind boggles. It really does.

Humans are pretty advanced. To an ant, we must seem like Gods. We can wipe out an entire colony with a swift kick. Even among certain more primitive humans today, westerners with our advanced technology and methods are thought to be gods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

Now, considering that there are literally trillions of planets out there at the right distance from their star to support life, are you really so naive as to believe that our planet the only one that does? It's almost a given that there are other civilizations out there, and logically they would be at varying stages in their technological development. Some just discovering fire, others building their first steam engines, and likely more than a few having ventured out beyond their own star system.

Now it's true that there is no evidence of this, but the conditions are in place for it to happen, and we know it's already happened at least once (on our planet) so it is absolutely possible. On the other hand, God as defined by the bible is impossible, and has been conclusively disproven.

Created everything in six days Big bang and 14 billion years universally accepted among credible scientists.
Adam and Eve Evolution universally accepted among credible scientists.
Great Flood No record and plenty of contradictory evidence.
Exodus No record and plenty of contradictory evidence.
Miracles No record and plenty of contradictory evidence.

So either you can claim the bible is metaphorical and not literal, in which case you're admitting it's a storybook and isn't true, or you can wittle your God's powers down to the equivalent of not existing, or like most Christians you can ignore all the scientific evidence and stick your fingers in your ears.

So yes, we believe an advanced alien race is far more likely than God. Based on evidence and observation, not on faith.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 12:56:34 AM by joebbowers »
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #94 on: May 09, 2012, 02:53:13 AM »
It is possible that God only wants to associate with those that have an obediant attitude  This attitude can be demonstrated by approaching him in his way rather than you own.

Jst,

I cannot be obedient to something that I do not believe exists, for starters.  Hence my open questioning to the silence "are you there, god?"  Its done quite politely.

Once again though, you are ascribind human wishes and desires on your perfect god.  Saying that your totally loving and wonrous being will get all huffy because I sit there instead of there to pray, say that instead of this.  Will, in effect, sit on his cloud in a huff and say "well, if that insignificant insect won't toe the party line, then to hell with him".  (literally).  That's what a spoiled child would say, NOT an all-loving and perfect god.

As I've said before though, if you are saying your god is NOT all-loving and perfect and above petty human desires and foibles, then that's fine.  Just come out and say so.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #95 on: May 09, 2012, 03:04:14 AM »
The Bible is very clear that Christ will come again and that no one will be under any misapprehension about who he is. The alien, no matter how advanced, is going to have trouble duplicating that.

Duplicating what Jane? What is Jeebus going to do, and why couldn't an advanced technology do the same thing?
Read the Gospels and see for yourself. I thought all of you knew the scriptures so well.

So...Jane's first point is that the ONLY time we would be able to tell Christ from an alien is at the end of times, when it's already too late to start to believe?  Hardly helpful for Hal's question....was that really what you were saying Jane?  That - until the end of the world comes - there IS no way of telling Christ from an alien?

Anyhoo....Jane's talk of what Christ will do, coupled with her talk of demons, prompted me to re-read the Revelation.....

Quote from: John the divine
.....his eyes were as a flame of fire; and his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.....and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword.....

You know....if I had to sit down and draw a picture of a demon, it wouldn't look much different to that.  Which of course begs a subsidiary question to Hal's: how can I tell Jesus from a demon, if they look so alike?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline freakygin

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #96 on: May 09, 2012, 03:51:33 AM »
^^^
Even Angels look pretty scary too  :o

(Ezek 1 : 4-21)
As I looked, I saw a great storm coming from the north,
driving before it a huge cloud that flashed with lightning and shone with brilliant light.
There was fire inside the cloud, and in the middle of the fire glowed something like gleaming amber.
From the center of the cloud came four living beings that looked human,
except that each had four faces and four wings.
Their legs were straight, and their feet had hooves like those of a calf and shone like burnished bronze.
Under each of their four wings I could see human hands.
So each of the four beings had four faces and four wings.
The wings of each living being touched the wings of the beings beside it.
Each one moved straight forward in any direction without turning around.
Each had a human face in the front, the face of a lion on the right side,
the face of an ox on the left side, and the face of an eagle at the back
.
Each had two pairs of outstretched wings--one pair stretched out
to touch the wings of the living beings on either side of it, and the other pair covered its body.
They went in whatever direction the spirit chose,
and they moved straight forward in any direction without turning around.
The living beings looked like bright coals of fire or brilliant torches,
and lightning seemed to flash back and forth among them.
And the living beings darted to and fro like flashes of lightning.
As I looked at these beings,
I saw four wheels touching the ground beside them, one wheel belonging to each.
The wheels sparkled as if made of beryl.
All four wheels looked alike and were made the same;
each wheel had a second wheel turning crosswise within it.
The beings could move in any of the four directions they faced, without turning as they moved.
The rims of the four wheels were tall and frightening, and they were covered with eyes all around.
When the living beings moved, the wheels moved with them. When they flew upward, the wheels went up, too.
The spirit of the living beings was in the wheels.
So wherever the spirit went, the wheels and the living beings also went.
When the beings moved, the wheels moved. When the beings stopped,
the wheels stopped. When the beings flew upward, the wheels rose up,
for the spirit of the living beings was in the wheels.
Spread out above them was a surface like the sky, glittering like crystal.
Beneath this surface the wings of each living being stretched out to touch the others' wings,
and each had two wings covering its body.
As they flew, their wings sounded to me like waves crashing against the shore or
like the voice of the Almighty or like the shouting of a mighty army. When they stopped,
they let down their wings.
As they stood with wings lowered, a voice spoke from beyond the crystal surface above them.
Above this surface was something that looked like a throne made of blue lapis lazuli.
And on this throne high above was a figure whose appearance resembled a man.
From what appeared to be his waist up, he looked like gleaming amber,
flickering like a fire. And from his waist down, he looked like a burning flame, shining with splendor.
All around him was a glowing halo, like a rainbow shining in the clouds on a rainy day.
This is what the glory of the LORD looked like to me. When I saw it, I fell face down on the ground,
and I heard someone's voice speaking to me.

The question is. What would you do if you EVER saw something as hideous like that?
For me, I'll shoot that damn thing for sure. And ask questions later..
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 03:53:58 AM by freakygin »
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #97 on: May 09, 2012, 05:18:51 AM »
It is possible that God only wants to associate with those that have an obediant attitude  This attitude can be demonstrated by approaching him in his way rather than you own.

Atheists are not disobedient. It has to be proven that there is a master and that a command has been given before you can claim we have disobeyed. Your argument also ignores the fact that millions of people have tried to find God but couldn't, and the millions of people who used to believe that have lost their faith.

A better comparison would be a father who abandons his children at birth.

One of the children believes his father still loves him and dutifully and faithfully writes letters to his father every day, which go unanswered, calls every night but nobody picks up. Day after day, month after month, year after year. He tries to live the life that he believes his father would want, and lives in constant fear that one day daddy will come home and mommy will tell him he has been naughty.

The other child isn't even sure that the man was his father, or believes daddy is either dead or doesn't care about him, and so chooses to live a good life based on his own choices.

Now would you say that this is a good father? A loving parent? Is the child to blame?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 05:20:41 AM by joebbowers »
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Offline HAL

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #98 on: May 09, 2012, 06:49:55 AM »
Give me an advanced alien, maybe only several thousand years advanced from us, and I can guarantee you it could have SweetDearLovelyPreciousJane, Jstweb, and all the other theists grovelling at it's knees in no time (well if it had knees). The reason is they have proven in this thread they can't define or differentiate between the two (god or advanced aliens). The alien could appear as Jeebus and fool them so easily it wouldn't be funny. They can't give any answer besides "we will know the difference". Ha! They haven't a clue or they would have stated it by now. Has anyone read in this thread how they could tell? It's not here after 4 pages. They could be fooled so easily, while at the same time we (the rational atheists) would simply be asking more questions just like we always do.

The theists like these are prime examples of gullibility and irrational thinking. That's why so many of this mindset even kill themselves for a religious idea (i.e. Jim Jones, Heaven's Gate, etc.). That's why the way they think isn't harmless, it's very possibly dangerous and it's certainly a foolish way to use the wetware.

Offline rev45

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #99 on: May 09, 2012, 07:07:02 AM »
^^^
Even Angels look pretty scary too  :o
Angels are quite frightening creatures.
cherubim

thrones

seraphim
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Offline Maggie the Opinionated

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #100 on: May 09, 2012, 07:10:09 AM »
^^^^^

You see what I mean? She just wrote "Mean, spiteful and very ignorant." on the comment for that neg she gave me. It's absolutely hilarious the level of utter stupidity she represents. I guarantee that at no point did she stop and think that she was essentially describing herself. her brain just does not function that way. And I suspect we haven't even begun to plumb her depths. I really want to see just how far down the scale her idiocy extends.
Pull up your big girl panties. You can dish it out but you sure can't take it. Heed the lesson you have just learned (I hope).

Offline Maggie the Opinionated

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #101 on: May 09, 2012, 07:17:00 AM »
Give me an advanced alien, maybe only several thousand years advanced from us, and I can guarantee you it could have SweetDearLovelyPreciousJane, Jstweb, and all the other theists grovelling at it's knees in no time (well if it had knees). The reason is they have proven in this thread they can't define or differentiate between the two (god or advanced aliens). The alien could appear as Jeebus and fool them so easily it wouldn't be funny. They can't give any answer besides "we will know the difference". Ha! They haven't a clue or they would have stated it by now. Has anyone read in this thread how they could tell? It's not here after 4 pages. They could be fooled so easily, while at the same time we (the rational atheists) would simply be asking more questions just like we always do.

The theists like these are prime examples of gullibility and irrational thinking. That's why so many of this mindset even kill themselves for a religious idea (i.e. Jim Jones, Heaven's Gate, etc.). That's why the way they think isn't harmless, it's very possibly dangerous and it's certainly a foolish way to use the wetware.
You asked a meaningless question and yet we are irrational. Uh huh. Just exactly what does your fabulously advanced alien have to do with anything? Where did he come from? All you do is push the question of origins back by positing such a creature. And yes, origins is the real issue. If the universe had a beginning, something caused it to come into existence. Something does not come from nothing. (and spare me talk about energy, et al. Energy is not nothing.) I already alluded to the need for you to deal with the question of change. I suppose it is possible that you didn't even understand the relevance of that question. Doesn't anyone study Aristotle any more?

Offline HAL

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #102 on: May 09, 2012, 07:19:18 AM »
Just exactly what does your fabulously advanced alien have to do with anything?

How can you tell the difference between an advanced alien and your deity Jane? The rest of your post is off-topic.

You still are dodging and fail to provide an answer. Any more posts with dodging will be moderated.

Either answer the question or avoid the thread.

Offline Maggie the Opinionated

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #103 on: May 09, 2012, 07:20:38 AM »
This post was off-topic. Please remain on topic and stop dodging.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 07:22:22 AM by HAL »

Offline Maggie the Opinionated

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #104 on: May 09, 2012, 07:21:40 AM »
This post was off-topic. Please remain on topic and stop dodging.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 07:22:43 AM by HAL »

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #105 on: May 09, 2012, 07:30:59 AM »
Just exactly what does your fabulously advanced alien have to do with anything? Where did he come from? All you do is push the question of origins back by positing such a creature.

If you are unable to distinguish between your god, and an advanced alien who claims to be your god then:

1) You have no way of determining if any religious experience you may have is "real" or not.
2) Further, you have no way of determining if any Biblical statement is "real" or not.
3) You then have no way of determining if the creation of this universe was carried out by your god or not.

True: it would still leave the question of ultimate origins to be answered.  But consider this hypothesis.....

The universe was created by the Great God Aa.  He created it just for something to do, setting the laws of physics in motion that would eventually lead to formation of planets, evolution, and so forth.  Over time, a race of aliens (the Zz) evolved, developed incredible technology, and visited Earth some 7,000 years ago.  They then embarked upon a long-term experiment wherein they orchestrated every alleged action of "Yahweh" (their chosen fictional deity), ensuring that all revelations put down in the Bible and given to believers all tied in with the observed facts of the universe.

Result?  There never was, never has been, any such being as "Yahweh" - aliens did it all.  With no way of discriminating between the two, it is impossible for you to prove or disprove either option.  And the important point of all this is that since you cannot determine if the Zz existed or not, you cannot then answer the real origin question and ascertain what it is that Aa wants you to do (or not to do), and hence you have no idea what the requirement are for the afterlife - or even if there is an afterlife at all.

THAT, I believe, is the thrust of Hal's question - that if it is impossible for you to reliably determine whether or not something is the action of the Zz, then you likewise have no way of determining whether Yahweh actually exists or not.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline HAL

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #106 on: May 09, 2012, 07:52:36 AM »
PJ keeps wanting to talk about origins, and that has not the slightest thing to do with my OP. Nothing. Zero, Zip, Zilch.

Even if Bibullgawd exists, or any god, it still doesn't answer my OP. Even if Bibullgawd created the universe, advanced aliens could still come here and you'd still have to tell me how you can tell them or it from the Creator. For some reason I think the question has got you so tied in mental knots that you can't bear to even formulate an answer, most probably because you haven't the slightest idea how to do it. You probably have never thought about it before and it has you afraid to attempt an answer, so you won't be embarrassed I'd imagine.

Suggestion: eat some of those kracker-things they hand out in church, drink a glass of sacramental wine, relax, and try again later.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #107 on: May 09, 2012, 07:55:12 AM »
The question is. What would you do if you EVER saw something as hideous like that?
For me, I'll shoot that damn thing for sure. And ask questions later..

That sounds like a plan to me.

I'm currently in the process of reading the bible cover-to-cover for the first time ever, as I've discussed in another thread.  I haven't made it to Ezekiel yet (right now, I'm at Second Chronicles), but I've heard of it before.  There are some people who claim that the section you quoted is a UFO sighting.  Which would, of course, bring us right back to the "deity vs. alien" thing we're discussing in this thread.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Alzael

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #108 on: May 09, 2012, 08:14:34 AM »
Pull up your big girl panties. You can dish it out but you sure can't take it. Heed the lesson you have just learned (I hope).

What exactly can't I take? I've taken everything so far and begged for more.

I think your perceptions of reality are starting to break down a little BabyJane.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline Maggie the Opinionated

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #109 on: May 09, 2012, 08:17:01 AM »
Post removed because it is simply preaching with no explanation. This is against the rules.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 08:24:24 AM by HAL »

Offline Alzael

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #110 on: May 09, 2012, 08:19:32 AM »
Another neg? There's a good little monkey. You serve me well. Bravo. Negs are so much easier than real arguments aren't they?

By the way you never answered my question about the sodomy. You're the expert on these things so I need to know?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 08:21:38 AM by Alzael »
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline HAL

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #111 on: May 09, 2012, 08:25:22 AM »
PJ's last post was deleted because it consisted of preaching only. This is not allowed. She still can't answer the question.

Offline Maggie the Opinionated

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #112 on: May 09, 2012, 08:29:26 AM »
Another rant with no value added. Answer the question or avoid the thread.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 08:30:34 AM by HAL »

Offline Alzael

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #113 on: May 09, 2012, 08:33:18 AM »
ROTFL!! You are pathetic and unworthy of the time of an adult.

Pot.Kettle,Black. My dirty little Monkey-Man.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

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Offline HAL

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #114 on: May 09, 2012, 08:34:39 AM »
The thread is being locked for a while due to PlainJane's lack of focus/ranting/inability to rationally answer the OP, resulting in undue moderation. I will re-open it later for further comments.

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Re: Evidence for a deity - How do I tell?
« Reply #115 on: May 09, 2012, 09:01:50 AM »
Plain Jane. Do you have a sister? I need to know because I don't want to meet her either.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.